Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread

Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI

Started by	Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net>
First post	2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Last post	2026-10-18 10:59 +0000
Articles	20 on this page of 310 — 24 participants

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  Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:48 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:12 +0100
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 13:04 +0000
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 14:40 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:00 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
                                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:02 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:40 +0000
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:12 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:35 +0200
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:04 +0000
                                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:24 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:37 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:04 +0100
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:17 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:36 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:03 +0100
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 12:39 +0000
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:37 -0400
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:07 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 21:55 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:56 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:09 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:58 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 13:33 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:08 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-19 02:13 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-19 11:39 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 18:52 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:22 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-19 03:55 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 20:07 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:21 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 13:13 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100
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                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:15 +0000
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            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
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              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:56 +0100
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                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:07 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:20 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:26 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:32 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:21 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:04 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:24 +0100
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                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:20 +0100
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                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 03:04 +0000
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#94233

From	rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date	2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
Message-ID	<njkmirFei39U33@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#94140

On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 11:54:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Britain got nearly all its original rock music from the American black
> culture, developed it and sold it back...
> ..later on folk, classical, country  and jazz crept in as well

My formative years were in the folk revival. The British Invasion put an 
end to that. British groups like Fairport Convention didn't have a chance 
against Led Zepplin.

The folk revival did popularize some black musicians like Brownie McGhee, 
John Hurt, Big Bill Broonzy and others.  Ironically some of them had to 
learn 'traditional' blues songs that were more acceptable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayCMkVULMEk

I bought a Lightnin Hopkins LP from the bargain bin at a supermarket. 
'Race' records were aimed at the black segment and not really mainstream 
until some of the stuff they were doing inspired rock'n'roll.

fwiw, I was a Stones person. The Beatles were a little too English music 
hall for my tastes. My wife liked the Beatles and attended the '65 Shea 
Stadium concert.

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#94314

From	The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-19 12:00 +0100
Message-ID	<11b4t7h$1vgjd$5@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94233

On 18/10/2026 20:56, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 11:54:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> Britain got nearly all its original rock music from the American black
>> culture, developed it and sold it back...
>> ..later on folk, classical, country  and jazz crept in as well
> 
> My formative years were in the folk revival. The British Invasion put an
> end to that. British groups like Fairport Convention didn't have a chance
> against Led Zepplin.
> 
> The folk revival did popularize some black musicians like Brownie McGhee,
> John Hurt, Big Bill Broonzy and others.  Ironically some of them had to
> learn 'traditional' blues songs that were more acceptable.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayCMkVULMEk
> 
> I bought a Lightnin Hopkins LP from the bargain bin at a supermarket.
> 'Race' records were aimed at the black segment and not really mainstream
> until some of the stuff they were doing inspired rock'n'roll.
> 
> fwiw, I was a Stones person. The Beatles were a little too English music
> hall for my tastes. My wife liked the Beatles and attended the '65 Shea
> Stadium concert.
> 
I wasn't really into either for many years.

The small blues bands like fleetwood Mac,  free, Steamhammer, and later 
on Led zeppelin, pink floyd etc + Dylan and Hendrix, and later on Santana
> 
> 
> 

-- 
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing 
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

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#94114

From	c186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date	2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
Message-ID	<MpGcnSQZ_--sGUn3nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to	#94077

On 10/17/26 16:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2026-10-17 10:52, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 16-10-2026, Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> a écrit :
>>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 22:11:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Any working musician needs to do the following on a daily basis:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Sight read or memorize an unfamiliar piece in an unfamiliar style
>>>>>
>>>> Wrong. Many working rock or jazz musicians cannot sight read.
>>>
>>> Rock stars are not "working musicians", they're rock stars.
>>
>> Whatever you call them, he is confusing things here. I don't believe
>> that many jazz musicians can't sight read but The Natural Philosopher
>> head is disconnected from the real world so I won't argue about that.
>>
>> If you take the Beatles, one of the biggest band known for two things:
>> first their songs were loved by a lot of people and second they were
>> unable to read a partition.
>>
>> And that's were his confusion resides. They knew very well what they
>> were doing. Some of the interviews they gave proved that if they were
>> unable to put theoretical names on what they did, they were well aware
>> of the effects had on the ears. So, even if they learned by themselves,
>> they knew some musical theory: it wasn't useless because without it they
>> wouldn't have stand out.
> 
> I know music theoreticists studied the Beatles and could relate them to 
> many previous musicians the world over. The maths applied to them. The 
> theory matched what they did.


   Umm ... have seen SOME of that. 99.99% BULLSHIT.

   "Beatles" were an emergent property of a PARTICULAR
   space/time/historical environment. Could not have
   emerged before, or after, or EVER after.

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#94154

From	"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date	2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
Message-ID	<c8neqmxr7l.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to	#94114

On 2026-10-18 10:32, c186282 wrote:
> On 10/17/26 16:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2026-10-17 10:52, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 16-10-2026, Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> a écrit :
>>>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 22:11:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Any working musician needs to do the following on a daily basis:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Sight read or memorize an unfamiliar piece in an unfamiliar style
>>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong. Many working rock or jazz musicians cannot sight read.
>>>>
>>>> Rock stars are not "working musicians", they're rock stars.
>>>
>>> Whatever you call them, he is confusing things here. I don't believe
>>> that many jazz musicians can't sight read but The Natural Philosopher
>>> head is disconnected from the real world so I won't argue about that.
>>>
>>> If you take the Beatles, one of the biggest band known for two things:
>>> first their songs were loved by a lot of people and second they were
>>> unable to read a partition.
>>>
>>> And that's were his confusion resides. They knew very well what they
>>> were doing. Some of the interviews they gave proved that if they were
>>> unable to put theoretical names on what they did, they were well aware
>>> of the effects had on the ears. So, even if they learned by themselves,
>>> they knew some musical theory: it wasn't useless because without it they
>>> wouldn't have stand out.
>>
>> I know music theoreticists studied the Beatles and could relate them 
>> to many previous musicians the world over. The maths applied to them. 
>> The theory matched what they did.
> 
> 
>    Umm ... have seen SOME of that. 99.99% BULLSHIT.

Well... it was my music teacher who told me this. She mentioned the 
gregorians.


> 
>    "Beatles" were an emergent property of a PARTICULAR
>    space/time/historical environment. Could not have
>    emerged before, or after, or EVER after.
> 


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#94165

From	The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
Message-ID	<11b2d5u$11pis$24@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94154

On 18/10/2026 12:30, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> Well... it was my music teacher who told me this. She mentioned the 
> gregorians.

It is amazing what 'professionals will do to elevate the status of their 
profession, and what gullible people will do, to believe them in order 
not to actually have to think.

Man is separated from the apes by his ability to construct far more 
complicated tools.

Engineering, in a very important sense, is the foundation of civilisation.

Science is not

A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.

No theory required

-- 
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your 
oppressors."
      - George Orwell

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#94166

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
Message-ID	<11b2dfs$140nj$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94165

On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
[..]
> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
> 
> No theory required

A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.

No theory required.

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94176

From	The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
Message-ID	<11b2eks$11pis$28@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94166

On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> [..]
>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>
>> No theory required
> 
> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
> 
> No theory required.
> 
And most of them are writing websites at 18

This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is 
impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory 
comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be 
counterproductive.

I remember talking to Gary Moore, the late Irish blues guitarist, I was 
a sound engineer of sorts, and asking him how he set up his amplifiers 
and guitars 'I just fiddle with the knobs and switches till I find a 
sound I like, and then forget about it'

I remember an interview in 'studio sound' when another guitarist was 
asked by he ran his loudspeakers with the drive units exposed. Was it a 
special sound he was after?
"No", he replied, "it's so that when a unit fails I can kick it in on 
stage and stop it buzzing".

Or the famous Murray Walker FI commentator sychpohantically asking Alan 
Jones, the Australian racing drive "How important rear tyres were in the 
race"

A lead in no Australian could resist:
"Well Murray, they do play a big part in stopping the rear of the car 
dragging along the road"




-- 
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and 
higher education positively fortifies it."

    - Stephen Vizinczey

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#94181

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
Message-ID	<11b2ggj$15dit$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94176

On 18/10/2026 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> [..]
>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
>>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>>
>>> No theory required
>>
>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>>
>> No theory required.
>>
> And most of them are writing websites at 18

Most 5 year olds are not making tunes with a recorder ;-). As for 
websites, I doubt that. Especially not the ones who use Copilot at age 15.

> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is 
> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory 
> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be 
> counterproductive.

I think the same has been said about computer science and writing 
software. At least I have seen plenty of self-taught coders pissing on 
theory, often with examples how a science student messed up and how they 
fixed it (or "fixed it").


-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94194

From	The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
Message-ID	<11b2ja9$11pis$39@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94181

On 18/10/2026 14:10, John Bokma wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
>>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> [..]
>>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
>>>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>>>
>>>> No theory required
>>>
>>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
>>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
>>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>>>
>>> No theory required.
>>>
>> And most of them are writing websites at 18
> 
> Most 5 year olds are not making tunes with a recorder ;-).

Arent they?

Pretty sure in my time they were.
> As for 
> websites, I doubt that. Especially not the ones who use Copilot at age 15.
> 
>> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is 
>> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory 
>> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be 
>> counterproductive.
> 
> I think the same has been said about computer science and writing 
> software. At least I have seen plenty of self-taught coders pissing on 
> theory, often with examples how a science student messed up and how they 
> fixed it (or "fixed it").
> 
Exactly. Theory is an aid, a tool, It is not *fundamental* to the 
practice of anything creative - be it making music.  painting a picture. 
building a house, writing software .

Metaphysics shows theory in the correct context that nearly all 
'educated' people simply do not understand. It is not Truth. It is an ad 
hoc model that *works*, and that is ultimately ALL that it is.

The Truth of a theory is indecidable, Only, under special conditions, 
it's falsity.

You can have (and the Left does) as many invisible undetectable fairies 
at the bottom of your garden who only have an effect because you 
*believe they are there* as you like.


-- 
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, 
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. 
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s 
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of 
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

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#94196

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
Message-ID	<11b2jl1$16jae$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94194

On 18/10/2026 15:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 14:10, John Bokma wrote:
>> On 18/10/2026 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

[..]

>> Most 5 year olds are not making tunes with a recorder ;-).
> 
> Arent they?

I wouldn't call it tunes :=D (Both my children had mandatory lessons at 
school. The youngest now actually plays music on bass guitar and 
acoustic guitar).

[..]

>> I think the same has been said about computer science and writing 
>> software. At least I have seen plenty of self-taught coders pissing on 
>> theory, often with examples how a science student messed up and how 
>> they fixed it (or "fixed it").
>>
> Exactly. Theory is an aid, a tool, It is not *fundamental* to the 
> practice of anything creative - be it making music.  painting a picture. 
> building a house, writing software .

Self-taught people who actually can do things are rare. Why we call them 
often artists ;-).

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94190

From	"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date	2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
Message-ID	<seueqmxlk7.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to	#94176

On 2026-10-18 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> [..]
>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
>>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>>
>>> No theory required
>>
>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>>
>> No theory required.
>>
> And most of them are writing websites at 18
> 
> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is 
> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory 
> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be 
> counterproductive.

The theory is used even without formally knowing it.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#94201

From	Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date	2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
Message-ID	<6ad4d64e$0$11445$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to	#94190

Le 18-10-2026, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>
> The theory is used even without formally knowing it.

Yes. That's what I said about the Beatles. Another example, Metallica,
the singer said often that theory was bad. Until he learned it and later
said he was a foul to refuse theory. And without the guitarist, who knew
a lot about musical theory, who has improved the songs they wouldn't have
been as well known as what they are.

To sing under your shower, musical theory is useless. To compose songs
meant to be first class worldwide hit, you can't avoid it.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#94225

From	The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
Message-ID	<11b376n$1dsuc$8@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94201

On 18/10/2026 15:23, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> To sing under your shower, musical theory is useless. To compose songs
> meant to be first class worldwide hit, you can't avoid it.
Unfounded assertion. No proof required
-- 
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale 
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

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#94277

From	rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date	2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
Message-ID	<njlfkaFei39U47@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#94225

On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 20:37:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 18/10/2026 15:23, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> To sing under your shower, musical theory is useless. To compose songs
>> meant to be first class worldwide hit, you can't avoid it.
> Unfounded assertion. No proof required

Proof of point : ABBA

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#94315

From	The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-19 12:02 +0100
Message-ID	<11b4tbf$1vgjd$6@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94277

On 19/10/2026 04:03, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 20:37:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> On 18/10/2026 15:23, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> To sing under your shower, musical theory is useless. To compose songs
>>> meant to be first class worldwide hit, you can't avoid it.
>> Unfounded assertion. No proof required
> 
> Proof of point : ABBA
> 
Dreadful band. Pop music at its worst. And disco too. Yuk

-- 
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing 
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

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#94309

From	Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com>
Date	2026-10-19 09:40 +0000
Message-ID	<11b4oin$1tnv4$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94201

On 18 Oct 2026 14:23:10 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> To sing under your shower, musical theory is useless. To compose songs
> meant to be first class worldwide hit, you can't avoid it.

You forgot the key detail: "to do so efficiently, economically, and 
predictably, even in the face of changing taste, etc". 

Lots of hummers have had #1 hits.

But I feel this conversation is focusing WAY too much on pop music stars, 
with are probably about 1% of people who earn their living by music one 
way or another, and for which the actual "music" part is 30% or less of 
the job description.

If we were necessarily to look at the pop industry, it would be best to 
focus on whoever is playing bass for Kylie Minogue today rather than on 
Kylie Minogue, who can't be reproduced.

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#94218

From	The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
Message-ID	<11b35ll$1dsuc$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94190

On 18/10/2026 14:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2026-10-18 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
>>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> [..]
>>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
>>>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>>>
>>>> No theory required
>>>
>>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
>>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
>>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>>>
>>> No theory required.
>>>
>> And most of them are writing websites at 18
>>
>> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is 
>> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory 
>> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be 
>> counterproductive.
> 
> The theory is used even without formally knowing it.
> 
> 
Weaselly bollox

If you dont know it you cant use it


-- 
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, 
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. 
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s 
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of 
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

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#94234

From	"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date	2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
Message-ID	<6nkfqmxatr.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to	#94218

On 2026-10-18 21:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 14:33, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2026-10-18 14:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 18/10/2026 13:19, John Bokma wrote:
>>>> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> [..]
>>>>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in 
>>>>> some fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>>>>>
>>>>> No theory required
>>>>
>>>> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
>>>> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
>>>> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>>>>
>>>> No theory required.
>>>>
>>> And most of them are writing websites at 18
>>>
>>> This thread was originally about those who claim that practice is 
>>> impossible without theory, and those who say that in reality, theory 
>>> comes much later and is often virtually useless and may indeed be 
>>> counterproductive.
>>
>> The theory is used even without formally knowing it.
>>
>>
> Weaselly bollox
> 
> If you dont know it you cant use it


LOL!

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#94180

From	Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date	2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
Message-ID	<6ad4c2f5$0$11429$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to	#94166

Le 18-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit :
> On 18/10/2026 14:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> [..]
>> A 5 year old kid cab pick up a recorder and make a note. Add in some 
>> fiddling and its more notes. fiddle some more and its a tune.
>> 
>> No theory required
>
> A 15 year old kid can pick up a computer and write a question to
> copilot CLI and make some code. Add in some fiddling and its more code.
> Fiddle some more and it's a computer program.
>
> No theory required.

Well, I know people who use greatly AI. I saw the some prompts to create
really good things: they are not easy. Maybe one day it will suffice to
tell an AI to read one mind and create what's expected. But that day is
not today.

I let The Blind Natural Philosopher (Yes, I know, there are some morons
with whom I don't want to argue, so the insult isn't mean to improve
arguing with him) quote to show I know the context and the way you mean
it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can
replace an experienced programmer.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#94182

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-18 15:12 +0200
Message-ID	<11b2gjt$15dit$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94180

On 18/10/2026 15:00, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

[..]
> it. But some people really believe that today AI used by a kid can
> replace an experienced programmer.

I do believe that.

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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csiph-web

Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI

Contents

#94233

#94314

#94114

#94154

#94165

#94166

#94176

#94181

#94194

#94196

#94190

#94201

#94225

#94277

#94315

#94309

#94218

#94234

#94180

#94182