Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread

Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI

Started by	Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net>
First post	2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Last post	2026-10-18 10:59 +0000
Articles	20 on this page of 319 — 24 participants

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  Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:48 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:12 +0100
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 13:04 +0000
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 14:40 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:00 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
                                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:02 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:40 +0000
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:12 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:35 +0200
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:04 +0000
                                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:24 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:37 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:04 +0100
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:17 +0100
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-19 17:33 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 17:26 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:36 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:03 +0100
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 12:39 +0000
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:58 -0700
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:37 -0400
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:07 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 21:55 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:56 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:09 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:58 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 13:33 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:08 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-19 02:13 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-19 11:39 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 18:52 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:22 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-19 03:55 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 20:07 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:21 +0100
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            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
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                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:26 +0100
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                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:21 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:04 +0000
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#94254

From	Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date	2026-10-18 21:59 +0000
Message-ID	<11b3fgl$1h3cv$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94122

On 18 Oct 2026 09:33:56 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> The issue wasn't about assigning a new dictionary to a variable, but
> adding some values in it. Some methods didn't worked for adding
> values if I didn't assign an empty dictionary or an empty list
> first, before doing anything on it.

Well, naturally, if you want to make a change to an object, that object
must a) be mutable, and b) exist in the first place.

E.g. appending to a list:

    >>> a = None
    >>> a.append("something")
    Traceback (most recent call last):
      File "<python-input-1>", line 1, in <module>
        a.append("something")
        ^^^^^^^^
    AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'append'

Naturally that doesn’t work, but

    >>> a = []
    >>> a.append("something")
    >>> a
    ['something']

Naturally that works. Similarly

    >>> a = None
    >>> a["colour"] = "green"
    Traceback (most recent call last):
      File "<python-input-6>", line 1, in <module>
        a["colour"] = "green"
        ~^^^^^^^^^^
    TypeError: 'NoneType' object does not support item assignment

doesn’t work either, but

    >>> a = {}
    >>> a["colour"] = "green"
    >>> a
    {'colour': 'green'}

does work.

> I managed to do it with other programming languages. I managed to do
> it with python, to. In the end, it worked. But it was more
> cumbersome with python. I'm not saying that a programming language
> should be able to be used without being learned. I'm saying that
> it's not an easier language to use.

I’d be curious to see some more detail about what exactly the
situation was, if you can supply it. Maybe you were thinking in terms
of declaring variables of a prespecified type, when Python doesn’t
really have such a concept?

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#94148

From	The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-18 12:09 +0100
Message-ID	<11b29e0$11pis$12@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94065

On 17/10/2026 20:29, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> I think the issue here is pretty obviously the attempt to use a tool
> without learning how it works.

The best tools are self explanatory...
-- 
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

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#94086

From	Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date	2026-10-17 20:42 +0000
Message-ID	<11b0mis$iems$7@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94035

On 17 Oct 2026 16:46:21 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases
> it's not that important.

It’s *always* important. Consider why languages like PHP (ptui) and
JavaScript need that extra “===” comparison operator: it’s to disable
automatic type conversions (e.g. number ↔ string) that Python refuses
to do anyway.

> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
> know.

Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?

    ldo@hypatia:~> python3
    Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29) [GCC 16.2.0] on linux
    Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
    >>> a = "some text"
    >>> print(a)
    some text
    >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
    >>> print(a)
    {'colour': 'green'}
    >>>

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#94098

From	rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date	2026-10-18 01:54 +0000
Message-ID	<njin6fFei39U19@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#94086

On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
> 
>     ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
>     [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>     "license"
>     for more information.
>     >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>     some text
>     >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>     >>> print(a)
>     {'colour': 'green'}

Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>> print(a)
{'coluor': 'green'}
>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>> print(a)
{'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}


I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't 
spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad 
hoc fields.

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#94129

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-18 12:11 +0200
Message-ID	<11b25vq$11csg$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94098

On 18/10/2026 03:54, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> 
>> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>>
>>      ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
>>      [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>>      "license"
>>      for more information.
>>      >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>>      some text
>>      >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>>      >>> print(a)
>>      {'colour': 'green'}
> 
> Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>>> print(a)
> {'coluor': 'green'}
>>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>>> print(a)
> {'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
> 
> 
> I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
> spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad
> hoc fields.

If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps 
kw_only=True).

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94135

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-18 12:38 +0200
Message-ID	<11b27jb$121rl$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94129

On 18/10/2026 12:11, John Bokma wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 03:54, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>>>
>>>      ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
>>>      [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>>>      "license"
>>>      for more information.
>>>      >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>>>      some text
>>>      >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>>>      >>> print(a)
>>>      {'colour': 'green'}
>>
>> Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>>>> print(a)
>> {'coluor': 'green'}
>>>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>>>> print(a)
>> {'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
>>
>>
>> I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
>> spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad
>> hoc fields.
> 
> If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps 
> kw_only=True).

❯ python3
Python 3.14.7 (main, Aug  8 2026, 20:03:42) [Clang 13.1.6 
(clang-1316.0.21.2.5)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> from dataclasses import dataclass
 >>> @dataclass(frozen=True, kw_only=True)
... class Config:
...     color: str
...
 >>> a = Config(color='purple')
 >>> a.coluor
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<python-input-3>", line 1, in <module>
     a.coluor
AttributeError: 'Config' object has no attribute 'coluor'. Did you mean: 
'color'?
 >>> a.color = 'green'
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<python-input-4>", line 1, in <module>
     a.color = 'green'
     ^^^^^^^
   File "<string>", line 15, in __setattr__
dataclasses.FrozenInstanceError: cannot assign to field 'color'
 >>> a.color
'purple'
 >>>

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94236

From	rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date	2026-10-18 20:01 +0000
Message-ID	<njkmthFei39U34@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#94129

On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 12:11:06 +0200, John Bokma wrote:

> On 18/10/2026 03:54, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> 
>>> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>>>
>>>      ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026,
>>>      08:30:29)
>>>      [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>>>      "license"
>>>      for more information.
>>>      >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>>>      some text
>>>      >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>>>      >>> print(a)
>>>      {'colour': 'green'}
>> 
>> Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux Type
>> "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>>>> print(a)
>> {'coluor': 'green'}
>>>>> a["color"] = "purple" print(a)
>> {'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
>> 
>> 
>> I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
>> spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add
>> ad hoc fields.
> 
> If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps
> kw_only=True).

Yes, the language has been improving but iirc dataclass appeared in 3.7.

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#94242

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-18 22:25 +0200
Message-ID	<11b39v6$1fl78$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94236

On 18/10/2026 22:01, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 12:11:06 +0200, John Bokma wrote:

[snip]

>> If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps
>> kw_only=True).
> 
> Yes, the language has been improving but iirc dataclass appeared in 3.7.

named tuples are another, older way.

But 3.7, that's 2018!

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94279

From	rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date	2026-10-19 03:19 +0000
Message-ID	<njlghnFei39U48@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#94242

On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 22:25:06 +0200, John Bokma wrote:

> On 18/10/2026 22:01, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 12:11:06 +0200, John Bokma wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>> If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps
>>> kw_only=True).
>> 
>> Yes, the language has been improving but iirc dataclass appeared in
>> 3.7.
> 
> named tuples are another, older way.
> 
> But 3.7, that's 2018!

That brings up an interesting question. How many people who have been 
using Python for a decade or two keep up with the latest changes? What 
they have been doing still works and they don't go out of their way to 
read PEP 666 or whatever. 

I'm certainly guilty. I pick and choose what I find useful  f strings are 
the greatest things since sliced bread. I suppose I might have to deal 
with asyncio someday but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I 
learned to hate await in C#.

It's not only Python. Whatever C spec that allowed inline variable 
declarations was great. I'd gotten used to it in C++. I'm sure there were 
other changes that I don't use. Some I actively dislike. afaik C still 
doesn't have lambdas. 

As far as Fortran, I'm stuck at f77.  It still works.

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#94290

From	Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Date	2026-10-18 21:48 -0700
Message-ID	<11b47e9$1nugu$3@kst.eternal-september.org>
In reply to	#94279

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
[...]
> It's not only Python. Whatever C spec that allowed inline variable 
> declarations was great. I'd gotten used to it in C++. I'm sure there were 
> other changes that I don't use. Some I actively dislike. afaik C still 
> doesn't have lambdas. 
[...]

I *think* you're referring to the ability to mix declarations and
statements within a block.  This was added in the 1999 edition of
the C standard.  C++ had this ability nearly from the beginning (I
don't know the exact history).

C++ has another feature of inline variables, using the "inline"
keyword, added in C++17.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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#94304

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-19 11:29 +0200
Message-ID	<11b4nt1$1u2st$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94279

On 19/10/2026 05:19, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 22:25:06 +0200, John Bokma wrote:

[..]

>> But 3.7, that's 2018!
> 
> That brings up an interesting question. How many people who have been
> using Python for a decade or two keep up with the latest changes? What
> they have been doing still works and they don't go out of their way to
> read PEP 666 or whatever.

I do. I like to read "What's new in Python 3.x". I do the same with Perl

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94342

From	Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-19 17:29 +0100
Message-ID	<wwvpkx5d56n.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
In reply to	#94304

John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> writes:
> On 19/10/2026 05:19, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 22:25:06 +0200, John Bokma wrote:
>>> But 3.7, that's 2018!
>> That brings up an interesting question. How many people who have been
>> using Python for a decade or two keep up with the latest changes?
>> What they have been doing still works and they don't go out of their
>> way to read PEP 666 or whatever.
>
> I do. I like to read "What's new in Python 3.x". I do the same with Perl

Currently my most prolific source of updates to my Python knowledge is
code reviews with someone who keeps up with the changes a bit better
than I do, which has the advantage that new features come to me with an
immediately useful context attached.

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#94343

From	The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-19 17:34 +0100
Message-ID	<11b5gr0$270al$13@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94342

On 19/10/2026 17:29, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> which has the advantage that new features come to me with an
> immediately useful context attached.

Radical!

-- 
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, 
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. 
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s 
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of 
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

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#94347

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-19 18:51 +0200
Message-ID	<11b5hr3$28b0m$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94342

On 19/10/2026 18:29, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> writes:
>> On 19/10/2026 05:19, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 22:25:06 +0200, John Bokma wrote:
>>>> But 3.7, that's 2018!
>>> That brings up an interesting question. How many people who have been
>>> using Python for a decade or two keep up with the latest changes?
>>> What they have been doing still works and they don't go out of their
>>> way to read PEP 666 or whatever.
>>
>> I do. I like to read "What's new in Python 3.x". I do the same with Perl
> 
> Currently my most prolific source of updates to my Python knowledge is
> code reviews with someone who keeps up with the changes a bit better
> than I do, which has the advantage that new features come to me with an
> immediately useful context attached.

That's nice.

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94050

From	Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date	2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Message-ID	<7cPAS.187032$iS_f.6758@fx06.iad>
In reply to	#93989

On 2026-10-17, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:

> So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you want
> to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way.

'Twas ever thus.  A little point-and-shoot camera makes it easy
to grab quick snapshots under good conditions; an SLR with lots
of adjustments is more difficult to use, but can give excellent
results under conditions under which the point-and-shoot fails utterly.

One size does not fit all.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  In this world there are
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  two kinds of people:
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  1. Those who can extrapolate
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  from incomplete data.

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#94067

From	rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date	2026-10-17 19:42 +0000
Message-ID	<nji1crFei39U10@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#93989

On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> Le 16-10-2026, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> a écrit :
>> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):
>>
>>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well C++ is a crime against humanity 'operator overloading...' crap
>>>> bloated crap.
>>>
>>> Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly
>>> complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still
>>> manages to be excessively complicated.
>>
>> C++ overly complicated? Nah.
> 
> It's so awful it made its creator declare: "There are only two kinds of
> languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses."

I had the first edition of Stroustrup's book. It was much closer to C With 
Classes than what it's grown into. The language wasn't quite ready for 
prime time, hence the STL that grew into the Standard Library and all the 
Microsoft additions as they tried to make it useful for their purposes.

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#94082

From	Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date	2026-10-17 20:36 +0000
Message-ID	<11b0m8k$iems$5@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#93989

On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
> works except when they stop to work.

I haven’t encountered that. I have written some reasonably substantial
Python code -- would this one <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah> count?
That’s over 8500 lines. And this <https://gitlab.com/ldo/dbussy>
consists of 2 modules totalling over 10,000 lines.

> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
> before the facts.

It is true you can make typos with misspelling variable names, because
assignment to a name the compiler hasn’t seen before causes the implicit
creation of a new variable.

One thing that helps limit the damage from this is the scoping rules.
For example, you can reference a global variable from an inner scope
without having to declare it global; but you can’t assign to it from
that scope unless you explicitly declare it “global”.

> And I'm not speaking about the dependencies. Each version breaks
> everything ...

Backward compatibility tends to be pretty good. Yes, some ancient
library modules do get deprecated -- still want to use the CGI
toolbox, or access Sun audio files??

> ... so well that now some distros don't let you install
> libraries with pip if you are not in a virtual environment.

Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard
system libraries without breaking things?

Maybe the issue is, Python has achieved a degree of popularity way
beyond anything those earlier languages could have managed, to the
point where critical system components have now become dependent on
it.

> So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you
> want to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way.

Python can do things as complex as anything you might want to do in
C++ or Java, with much less code. For a real-world example, look at
how you would set up a TLS/SSL encrypted connection in Java, versus
doing it in Python.

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#94090

From	Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com>
Date	2026-10-17 15:47 -0600
Message-ID	<11b0qe7$kgm7$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94082

Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> 
>>  From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
>> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
>> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
>> works except when they stop to work.
> 
> I haven’t encountered that. I have written some reasonably substantial
> Python code -- would this one <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah> count?
> That’s over 8500 lines. And this <https://gitlab.com/ldo/dbussy>
> consists of 2 modules totalling over 10,000 lines.

No wonder. The problem with counting by lines is you may come up with 
10,000, but if you took out whitespace it could be short as 102 lines.

>> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
>> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
>> before the facts.
> 
> It is true you can make typos with misspelling variable names, because
> assignment to a name the compiler hasn’t seen before causes the implicit
> creation of a new variable.

To begin I know you should only import maybe at most 2 packages besides 
sys and/or random.

> One thing that helps limit the damage from this is the scoping rules.
> For example, you can reference a global variable from an inner scope
> without having to declare it global; but you can’t assign to it from
> that scope unless you explicitly declare it “global”.
> 
>> And I'm not speaking about the dependencies. Each version breaks
>> everything ...
> 
> Backward compatibility tends to be pretty good. Yes, some ancient
> library modules do get deprecated -- still want to use the CGI
> toolbox, or access Sun audio files??

I'm usually attempting to advance to a later version of Python in my 
expeience. Backward compatibility is great, but it's important to look 
at what new versions bring.

>> ... so well that now some distros don't let you install
>> libraries with pip if you are not in a virtual environment.
> 
> Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard
> system libraries without breaking things?

It's a standard.

> Maybe the issue is, Python has achieved a degree of popularity way
> beyond anything those earlier languages could have managed, to the
> point where critical system components have now become dependent on
> it.
> 
>> So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you
>> want to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way.

Which of the powers are you referring to?

> Python can do things as complex as anything you might want to do in
> C++ or Java, with much less code. For a real-world example, look at
> how you would set up a TLS/SSL encrypted connection in Java, versus
> doing it in Python.

I've found the integer system powerful.

-- 
Can you strip away so we may start again?
"There’s a switch and they don't
seem authentic or themselves. It
feels like I’m an unnecessary
body and it’s a waste of time to
even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.

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#94094

From	Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date	2026-10-17 23:11 +0000
Message-ID	<11b0vau$lsp3$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94090

On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 15:47:43 -0600, Blaine wrote:

> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>> On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>
>>>  From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
>>> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
>>> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
>>> works except when they stop to work.
>>
>> I haven’t encountered that. I have written some reasonably substantial
>> Python code -- would this one <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah> count?
>> That’s over 8500 lines. And this <https://gitlab.com/ldo/dbussy>
>> consists of 2 modules totalling over 10,000 lines.
>
> No wonder. The problem with counting by lines is you may come up with
> 10,000, but if you took out whitespace it could be short as 102 lines.

    ldo@hypatia:dbussy> grep -cE '^$' dbussy.py ravel.py
    dbussy.py:720
    ravel.py:240
    ldo@hypatia:dbussy> grep -cvE '^$' dbussy.py ravel.py
    dbussy.py:6279
    ravel.py:3483

Still close to 10,000 lines. So ... nope.

> To begin I know you should only import maybe at most 2 packages besides
> sys and/or random.

Where do you get that idea from?

From the abovementioned dbussy.py:

    import os
    import builtins
    import operator
    import array
    import enum
    import ctypes as ct
    from weakref import \
        ref as weak_ref, \
        WeakValueDictionary
    import threading
    import io
    import atexit
    import asyncio
    import functools
    from xml.etree import \
        ElementTree as XMLElementTree
    from xml.sax.saxutils import \
        quoteattr as quote_xml_attr

>> Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard
>> system libraries without breaking things?
>
> It's a standard.

Doesn’t seem like a coherent answer ...

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#94096

From	Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com>
Date	2026-10-17 18:07 -0600
Message-ID	<11b12jc$n0a6$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94094

Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 15:47:43 -0600, Blaine wrote:
> 
>> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>> On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>>
>>>>   From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
>>>> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
>>>> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
>>>> works except when they stop to work.
>>>
>>> I haven’t encountered that. I have written some reasonably substantial
>>> Python code -- would this one <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah> count?
>>> That’s over 8500 lines. And this <https://gitlab.com/ldo/dbussy>
>>> consists of 2 modules totalling over 10,000 lines.
>>
>> No wonder. The problem with counting by lines is you may come up with
>> 10,000, but if you took out whitespace it could be short as 102 lines.
> 
>      ldo@hypatia:dbussy> grep -cE '^$' dbussy.py ravel.py
>      dbussy.py:720
>      ravel.py:240
>      ldo@hypatia:dbussy> grep -cvE '^$' dbussy.py ravel.py
>      dbussy.py:6279
>      ravel.py:3483
> 
> Still close to 10,000 lines. So ... nope.
> 
>> To begin I know you should only import maybe at most 2 packages besides
>> sys and/or random.
> 
> Where do you get that idea from?
> 
>  From the abovementioned dbussy.py:
> 
>      import os
>      import builtins
>      import operator

Because I tricked you into thinking, "To begin" means "well here we go 
again." I intentionally made it obscure that I am instructing the 
beginner on this point. I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python 
shouldn't import very many packages, as they can overlap problematically.

-- 
Can you strip away so we may start again?
"There’s a switch and they don't
seem authentic or themselves. It
feels like I’m an unnecessary
body and it’s a waste of time to
even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.

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#94254

#94148

#94086

#94098

#94129

#94135

#94236

#94242

#94279

#94290

#94304

#94342

#94343

#94347

#94050

#94067

#94082

#94090

#94094

#94096