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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 246 — 22 participants |
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Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:35 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:04 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:24 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 03:04 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:41 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:24 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:16 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:53 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 06:02 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:26 -0700
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:45 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:51 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:58 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-18 07:43 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 12:15 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-18 07:13 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 20:14 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-18 08:01 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:55 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:09 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 12:12 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 02:42 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-18 08:53 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:06 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:32 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 12:20 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:22 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:36 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:35 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:18 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 12:12 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 13:43 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 20:37 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 09:07 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-17 13:30 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 20:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 12:04 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nick Charles <none@none.none> - 2026-10-16 23:19 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 02:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-17 01:54 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:58 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:25 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "De ongekruisigde ds." <ongekruisigde-ds@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000
Page 10 of 13 — ← Prev page 1 … 8 9 [10] 11 12 13 Next page →
| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:07 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b29a9$11pis$10@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94037 |
On 17/10/2026 18:08, John Bokma wrote: > Examples: > > Explain as a professional Python programmer why 1+True yields 2 and is > valid > Thought for 3s > > In Python, bool is a subclass of int . The two Boolean values behave > numerically as False == 0 and True == 1 , so adding True to 1 is > equivalent to 1 + 1 : > > 1 + True # 2 > type(1 + True) # int > > It’s valid because Python’s numeric operations accept Boolean values as > integers. In application code, though, it’s usually clearer to convert > or count explicitly if you intend to use a Boolean as a number. With Booleans the + operator ought to be an OR function so TRUE + TRUE = TRUE -- “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the urge to rule it.” – H. L. Mencken
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 09:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad48fdc$0$11444$426a34cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94036 |
Le 17-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : > On 17/10/2026 18:46, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > > [..] > >> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't >> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare >> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't >> know. > > I guess you confuse assigning a type with creating an object of a > specific type. Probably. Sometimes some methods didn't work if I didn't assign an empty dictionary first. So, I assumed, maybe wrongly, that assigning an empty value was declaring it, maybe there are some subtleties. >> With python, that looks easy and when I fix something, it breaks >> something else for reasons I don't understand. > > I recommend to install Copilot CLI on your system and ask it to explain > why your script breaks. It's quite good at explaining is my experience. Well, at work I don't install what I want on my computer. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 20:29 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wwv33u4t9bq.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #94035 |
Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
>>> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
>>> before the facts.
>>
>> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
>> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>>
>> >>> 0+""
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>> File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
>> 0+""
>> ~^~~
>> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
>
> In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases
> it's not that important.
>
> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
> know.
No special declaration is needed for dicts, you can just write out the
dict you want.
>>> d={'a': 1, 'b': 2}
>>> type(d)
<class 'dict'>
> With other programming languages I saw, either that works or that
> doesn't, but I never saw something that stops working when it starts to
> be more complex. It looks like it's a python specialty.
No, I think the issue here is pretty obviously the attempt to use a tool
without learning how it works.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 09:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad49284$0$28083$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94065 |
Le 17-10-2026, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>>> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
>>>> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
>>>> before the facts.
>>>
>>> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
>>> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>>>
>>> >>> 0+""
>>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>> File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
>>> 0+""
>>> ~^~~
>>> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
>>
>> In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases
>> it's not that important.
>>
>> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
>> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
>> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
>> know.
>
> No special declaration is needed for dicts, you can just write out the
> dict you want.
>
> >>> d={'a': 1, 'b': 2}
> >>> type(d)
> <class 'dict'>
As John said, I'm probably confusing declaring, creating and assigning a
value to a variable. Because when I assigned an empty dictionary to a
variable, all three of them are done at the same time.
The issue wasn't about assigning a new dictionary to a variable, but
adding some values in it. Some methods didn't worked for adding values
if I didn't assign an empty dictionary or an empty list first, before
doing anything on it.
>> With other programming languages I saw, either that works or that
>> doesn't, but I never saw something that stops working when it starts to
>> be more complex. It looks like it's a python specialty.
>
> No, I think the issue here is pretty obviously the attempt to use a tool
> without learning how it works.
I managed to do it with other programming languages. I managed to do it
with python, to. In the end, it worked. But it was more cumbersome with
python. I'm not saying that a programming language should be able to be
used without being learned. I'm saying that it's not an easier language
to use.
--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:09 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b29e0$11pis$12@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94065 |
On 17/10/2026 20:29, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > I think the issue here is pretty obviously the attempt to use a tool > without learning how it works. The best tools are self explanatory... -- Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 20:42 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b0mis$iems$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94035 |
On 17 Oct 2026 16:46:21 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases
> it's not that important.
It’s *always* important. Consider why languages like PHP (ptui) and
JavaScript need that extra “===” comparison operator: it’s to disable
automatic type conversions (e.g. number ↔ string) that Python refuses
to do anyway.
> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
> know.
Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
ldo@hypatia:~> python3
Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29) [GCC 16.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a = "some text"
>>> print(a)
some text
>>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>>> print(a)
{'colour': 'green'}
>>>
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 01:54 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njin6fFei39U19@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94086 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>
> ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
> [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
> "license"
> for more information.
> >>> a = "some text" print(a)
> some text
> >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
> >>> print(a)
> {'colour': 'green'}
Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>> print(a)
{'coluor': 'green'}
>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>> print(a)
{'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad
hoc fields.
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:11 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b25vq$11csg$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94098 |
On 18/10/2026 03:54, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>>
>> ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
>> [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>> "license"
>> for more information.
>> >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>> some text
>> >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>> >>> print(a)
>> {'colour': 'green'}
>
> Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>>> print(a)
> {'coluor': 'green'}
>>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>>> print(a)
> {'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
>
>
> I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
> spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad
> hoc fields.
If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps
kw_only=True).
--
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:38 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b27jb$121rl$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94129 |
On 18/10/2026 12:11, John Bokma wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 03:54, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>>>
>>> ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
>>> [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>>> "license"
>>> for more information.
>>> >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>>> some text
>>> >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>>> >>> print(a)
>>> {'colour': 'green'}
>>
>> Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>>>> print(a)
>> {'coluor': 'green'}
>>>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>>>> print(a)
>> {'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
>>
>>
>> I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
>> spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad
>> hoc fields.
>
> If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps
> kw_only=True).
❯ python3
Python 3.14.7 (main, Aug 8 2026, 20:03:42) [Clang 13.1.6
(clang-1316.0.21.2.5)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> from dataclasses import dataclass
>>> @dataclass(frozen=True, kw_only=True)
... class Config:
... color: str
...
>>> a = Config(color='purple')
>>> a.coluor
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<python-input-3>", line 1, in <module>
a.coluor
AttributeError: 'Config' object has no attribute 'coluor'. Did you mean:
'color'?
>>> a.color = 'green'
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<python-input-4>", line 1, in <module>
a.color = 'green'
^^^^^^^
File "<string>", line 15, in __setattr__
dataclasses.FrozenInstanceError: cannot assign to field 'color'
>>> a.color
'purple'
>>>
--
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <7cPAS.187032$iS_f.6758@fx06.iad> |
| In reply to | #93989 |
On 2026-10-17, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote: > So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you want > to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way. 'Twas ever thus. A little point-and-shoot camera makes it easy to grab quick snapshots under good conditions; an SLR with lots of adjustments is more difficult to use, but can give excellent results under conditions under which the point-and-shoot fails utterly. One size does not fit all. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 19:42 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nji1crFei39U10@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #93989 |
On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 16-10-2026, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> a écrit : >> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed): >> >>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: >>> >>>> Well C++ is a crime against humanity 'operator overloading...' crap >>>> bloated crap. >>> >>> Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly >>> complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still >>> manages to be excessively complicated. >> >> C++ overly complicated? Nah. > > It's so awful it made its creator declare: "There are only two kinds of > languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." I had the first edition of Stroustrup's book. It was much closer to C With Classes than what it's grown into. The language wasn't quite ready for prime time, hence the STL that grew into the Standard Library and all the Microsoft additions as they tried to make it useful for their purposes.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 20:36 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b0m8k$iems$5@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93989 |
On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java > or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the > complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things > works except when they stop to work. I haven’t encountered that. I have written some reasonably substantial Python code -- would this one <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah> count? That’s over 8500 lines. And this <https://gitlab.com/ldo/dbussy> consists of 2 modules totalling over 10,000 lines. > Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries > without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand > before the facts. It is true you can make typos with misspelling variable names, because assignment to a name the compiler hasn’t seen before causes the implicit creation of a new variable. One thing that helps limit the damage from this is the scoping rules. For example, you can reference a global variable from an inner scope without having to declare it global; but you can’t assign to it from that scope unless you explicitly declare it “global”. > And I'm not speaking about the dependencies. Each version breaks > everything ... Backward compatibility tends to be pretty good. Yes, some ancient library modules do get deprecated -- still want to use the CGI toolbox, or access Sun audio files?? > ... so well that now some distros don't let you install > libraries with pip if you are not in a virtual environment. Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard system libraries without breaking things? Maybe the issue is, Python has achieved a degree of popularity way beyond anything those earlier languages could have managed, to the point where critical system components have now become dependent on it. > So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you > want to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way. Python can do things as complex as anything you might want to do in C++ or Java, with much less code. For a real-world example, look at how you would set up a TLS/SSL encrypted connection in Java, versus doing it in Python.
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| From | Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 15:47 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <11b0qe7$kgm7$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94082 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > >> From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java >> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the >> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things >> works except when they stop to work. > > I haven’t encountered that. I have written some reasonably substantial > Python code -- would this one <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah> count? > That’s over 8500 lines. And this <https://gitlab.com/ldo/dbussy> > consists of 2 modules totalling over 10,000 lines. No wonder. The problem with counting by lines is you may come up with 10,000, but if you took out whitespace it could be short as 102 lines. >> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries >> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand >> before the facts. > > It is true you can make typos with misspelling variable names, because > assignment to a name the compiler hasn’t seen before causes the implicit > creation of a new variable. To begin I know you should only import maybe at most 2 packages besides sys and/or random. > One thing that helps limit the damage from this is the scoping rules. > For example, you can reference a global variable from an inner scope > without having to declare it global; but you can’t assign to it from > that scope unless you explicitly declare it “global”. > >> And I'm not speaking about the dependencies. Each version breaks >> everything ... > > Backward compatibility tends to be pretty good. Yes, some ancient > library modules do get deprecated -- still want to use the CGI > toolbox, or access Sun audio files?? I'm usually attempting to advance to a later version of Python in my expeience. Backward compatibility is great, but it's important to look at what new versions bring. >> ... so well that now some distros don't let you install >> libraries with pip if you are not in a virtual environment. > > Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard > system libraries without breaking things? It's a standard. > Maybe the issue is, Python has achieved a degree of popularity way > beyond anything those earlier languages could have managed, to the > point where critical system components have now become dependent on > it. > >> So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you >> want to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way. Which of the powers are you referring to? > Python can do things as complex as anything you might want to do in > C++ or Java, with much less code. For a real-world example, look at > how you would set up a TLS/SSL encrypted connection in Java, versus > doing it in Python. I've found the integer system powerful. -- Can you strip away so we may start again? "There’s a switch and they don't seem authentic or themselves. It feels like I’m an unnecessary body and it’s a waste of time to even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 23:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b0vau$lsp3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94090 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 15:47:43 -0600, Blaine wrote:
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>> On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>
>>> From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
>>> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
>>> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
>>> works except when they stop to work.
>>
>> I haven’t encountered that. I have written some reasonably substantial
>> Python code -- would this one <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah> count?
>> That’s over 8500 lines. And this <https://gitlab.com/ldo/dbussy>
>> consists of 2 modules totalling over 10,000 lines.
>
> No wonder. The problem with counting by lines is you may come up with
> 10,000, but if you took out whitespace it could be short as 102 lines.
ldo@hypatia:dbussy> grep -cE '^$' dbussy.py ravel.py
dbussy.py:720
ravel.py:240
ldo@hypatia:dbussy> grep -cvE '^$' dbussy.py ravel.py
dbussy.py:6279
ravel.py:3483
Still close to 10,000 lines. So ... nope.
> To begin I know you should only import maybe at most 2 packages besides
> sys and/or random.
Where do you get that idea from?
From the abovementioned dbussy.py:
import os
import builtins
import operator
import array
import enum
import ctypes as ct
from weakref import \
ref as weak_ref, \
WeakValueDictionary
import threading
import io
import atexit
import asyncio
import functools
from xml.etree import \
ElementTree as XMLElementTree
from xml.sax.saxutils import \
quoteattr as quote_xml_attr
>> Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard
>> system libraries without breaking things?
>
> It's a standard.
Doesn’t seem like a coherent answer ...
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| From | Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 18:07 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <11b12jc$n0a6$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94094 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 15:47:43 -0600, Blaine wrote: > >> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >>> >>> On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >>> >>>> From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java >>>> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the >>>> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things >>>> works except when they stop to work. >>> >>> I haven’t encountered that. I have written some reasonably substantial >>> Python code -- would this one <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah> count? >>> That’s over 8500 lines. And this <https://gitlab.com/ldo/dbussy> >>> consists of 2 modules totalling over 10,000 lines. >> >> No wonder. The problem with counting by lines is you may come up with >> 10,000, but if you took out whitespace it could be short as 102 lines. > > ldo@hypatia:dbussy> grep -cE '^$' dbussy.py ravel.py > dbussy.py:720 > ravel.py:240 > ldo@hypatia:dbussy> grep -cvE '^$' dbussy.py ravel.py > dbussy.py:6279 > ravel.py:3483 > > Still close to 10,000 lines. So ... nope. > >> To begin I know you should only import maybe at most 2 packages besides >> sys and/or random. > > Where do you get that idea from? > > From the abovementioned dbussy.py: > > import os > import builtins > import operator Because I tricked you into thinking, "To begin" means "well here we go again." I intentionally made it obscure that I am instructing the beginner on this point. I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very many packages, as they can overlap problematically. -- Can you strip away so we may start again? "There’s a switch and they don't seem authentic or themselves. It feels like I’m an unnecessary body and it’s a waste of time to even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 03:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b1d21$pt5v$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94096 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:07:08 -0600, Blaine wrote: > I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python shouldn't import very > many packages, as they can overlap problematically. How “overlap”?
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 09:57 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad497ed$0$10304$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94096 |
Le 18-10-2026, Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> a écrit : > > Because I tricked you into thinking, "To begin" means "well here we go > again." I intentionally made it obscure that I am instructing the > beginner on this point. I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python > shouldn't import very many packages, as they can overlap problematically. One of the power of python is the number of available packages. As the saying go, in C you have a million ways to do what you want when in python you have a million packages to do what you want. So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit confusing. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 02:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njiqeaFei39U22@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94082 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:36:37 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: >> ... so well that now some distros don't let you install libraries with >> pip if you are not in a virtual environment. > > Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard > system libraries without breaking things? I prefer venvs, particularly when using uv to set a Python version. For example when tensorflow says Python 3.9-3.12 they don't mean 3.13, 3.14, or 3.15. One annoyance is the different site packages on the various distros. For example on Fedora you can install python3-ruff as a site package with dnf. On Ubuntu 26.04 you get 'Error: Unable to locate package python3- ruff' and have to install it in a venv. No big deal but it's easier to create the venv for the project just in case.
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:14 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b265k$11csg$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94101 |
On 18/10/2026 04:49, rbowman wrote: [..] > One annoyance is the different site packages on the various distros. For > example on Fedora you can install python3-ruff as a site package with > dnf. On Ubuntu 26.04 you get 'Error: Unable to locate package python3- > ruff' and have to install it in a venv. Or use docker. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 07:20 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11av7ki$3vvao$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93932 |
>Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid>wrote: >>On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> Well C++ is a crime against humanity >> 'operator overloading...' crap bloated crap. > >Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly >complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still >manages to be excessively complicated. > >Python, on the other hand, includes operator overloading, yet is still >only a small fraction of the complexity of either Java or C++. Such a >feature is useful, for example, in letting you express operations on >mathematical objects (like vectors and matrices) using something close >to the original mathematical notation. OK I never got much into Python Never needed it for the things I do. Also it seems to be changing all the time? Most code I write is in C or in asm for Microchips. asm is extremely powerful understand the hardware!!! https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/index.html These days giggle bytes seem to be needed to just say: 'Hello world'. Too many layers of crap. But I come from a hardware background, in the sixties there were no 'computers' yet they did a manned Moon landing and return. Now they have nothing to show but driving around the block (earth orbit) with all that computing power.
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