Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread

Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI

Started by	Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net>
First post	2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Last post	2026-10-17 11:25 +0100
Articles	20 on this page of 206 — 21 participants

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  Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:37 -0400
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 21:55 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:56 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:09 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 13:13 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:50 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:15 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:41 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:00 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:26 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:42 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:56 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:14 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:07 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:20 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:26 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:32 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:21 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:04 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:24 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:27 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:20 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 01:13 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 02:32 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 03:04 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:24 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:16 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:53 +0200
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 06:02 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:26 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 06:42 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:41 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 06:39 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:22 -0400
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:54 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:19 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:40 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:52 +0100
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:47 +0000
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      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 05:29 +0000
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:07 +0100
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:28 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:26 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 10:56 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:40 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:46 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:39 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:48 +0000
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:16 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:51 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:04 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:13 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:03 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:26 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:21 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 15:07 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 21:26 -0400
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-17 01:55 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-17 01:07 -0400
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:28 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:35 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:09 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-10-16 16:37 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:51 +0000
    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 11:44 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:14 +0000
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> - 2026-10-16 17:10 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 17:56 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:10 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 18:32 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 21:52 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
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            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:39 -0400
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                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 19:42 +0000
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        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:25 +0100

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#94069

From	rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date	2026-10-17 19:55 +0000
Message-ID	<nji25eFei39U12@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#94034

On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 17:15:34 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> On 17/10/2026 15:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues
>>> (exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not
>>> really problematic.
>>
>> Wow. someone has a real use for it!
> 
> It is very widely used - most (possibly all?) candidates I’ve
> interviewed in the last ten years have at least some background with it
> (albeit quite often relatively thin experience).

Much of my use was with Esri after they went to Python from VBA. The 
downside was Esri clung to 2.7 until their 11.0 release. Installing 
ArcDesktop also installed Python 2.7 with their modules.

https://www.esri.com/en-us/arcgis/products/arcgis-python-libraries/
libraries/arcpy

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#94054

From	Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date	2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Message-ID	<acPAS.187040$iS_f.3902@fx06.iad>
In reply to	#94030

On 2026-10-17, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 17/10/2026 15:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>
>> We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues
>> (exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not
>> really problematic.
>
> Wow. someone has a real use for it!
>
> I just am too old to become proficient in another language, I am still 
> battling JavaScript

I still use C.  I started puttering with Python once -
maybe I should take another look at it.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  In this world there are
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  two kinds of people:
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  1. Those who can extrapolate
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  from incomplete data.

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#94084

From	Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date	2026-10-17 20:38 +0000
Message-ID	<11b0mcp$iems$6@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94054

On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 18:33:42 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> I started puttering with Python once - maybe I should take another
> look at it.

It just makes it easier to mess around with stuff. You know, when
you’re not sure how to go about something, and are just experimenting.

A good environment for experimenting with Python is Jupyter
<https://jupyter.org/>. This gives you a notebook-type interface which
is convenient for “scratchpad” programming.

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#94068

From	rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date	2026-10-17 19:51 +0000
Message-ID	<nji1u1Fei39U11@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#94030

On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 15:06:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 17/10/2026 15:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues
>> (exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not
>> really problematic.
> 
> Wow. someone has a real use for it!
> 
> I just am too old to become proficient in another language, I am still
> battling JavaScript

Much of my use these days is MicroPython, although I used it last week to 
convert a gnarly node list output from a LoRa board to GeoJSON. My first 
impulse was to use C but I'm trying to improve my general Python skills.

The JavaScript part came later when I used the leaflet.js library to 
create a map to display the GeoJSON. Unfortunately leaflet traditionally 
used tiles from the OSM server. In the last month or so they've started 
enforcing an obscure header in the request so the tiles you get are 
basically  '403  FOAD'

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#94032

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-17 17:36 +0200
Message-ID	<11b04le$auup$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94028

On 17/10/2026 16:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
[..]

> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
> 
>      >>> 0+""
>      Traceback (most recent call last):
>        File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
>          0+""
>          ~^~~
>      TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'

On the other hand:

❯ python3
Python 3.14.7 (main, Aug  8 2026, 20:03:42) [Clang 13.1.6 
(clang-1316.0.21.2.5)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
 >>> 0+True
1
 >>> type(True)
<class 'bool'>
 >>> type(0)
<class 'int'>
 >>>

;-)

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94033

From	Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-17 17:12 +0100
Message-ID	<wwvv770b91x.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
In reply to	#94032

John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> writes:
> Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
>> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>>      >>> 0+""
>>      Traceback (most recent call last):
>>        File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
>>          0+""
>>          ~^~~
>>      TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
>
> On the other hand:
>
> ❯ python3
> Python 3.14.7 (main, Aug  8 2026, 20:03:42) [Clang 13.1.6
> (clang-1316.0.21.2.5)] on darwin
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> 0+True
> 1
>>>> type(True)
> <class 'bool'>
>>>> type(0)
> <class 'int'>
>>>>
>
> ;-)

    >>> issubclass(bool, int)
    True

l-)

Still, typed doesn’t mean complete immiscibility of types (at least in
Python), and a good thing too, since lots of operations take operands of
different types. For example if d is an int and G is a Python object
representing a point on an elliptic curve, I want to be able to write
d*G, not mess around with function calls to do point multiplication.

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#94071

From	rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date	2026-10-17 20:05 +0000
Message-ID	<nji2ocFei39U13@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#94033

On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 17:12:26 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

> Still, typed doesn’t mean complete immiscibility of types (at least in
> Python), and a good thing too, since lots of operations take operands of
> different types. For example if d is an int and G is a Python object
> representing a point on an elliptic curve, I want to be able to write
> d*G,
> not mess around with function calls to do point multiplication.

I've been trying to get up to speed with type hints. Like 'private' 
functions in Python they seem to depend on a gentleman's agreement not to 
do bad things.  Like TypeScript it helps but still has loopholes.

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#94080

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-17 22:35 +0200
Message-ID	<11b0m5o$j23b$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94071

On 17/10/2026 22:05, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 17:12:26 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> 
>> Still, typed doesn’t mean complete immiscibility of types (at least in
>> Python), and a good thing too, since lots of operations take operands of
>> different types. For example if d is an int and G is a Python object
>> representing a point on an elliptic curve, I want to be able to write
>> d*G,
>> not mess around with function calls to do point multiplication.
> 
> I've been trying to get up to speed with type hints. Like 'private'
> functions in Python they seem to depend on a gentleman's agreement not to
> do bad things.  Like TypeScript it helps but still has loopholes.

They are hints, so yes and no: if you run the code first through mypy or 
pyrefly (which I prefer) and it doesn't pass just don't run it. That's 
not really a loophole.

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94110

From	Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-18 09:12 +0100
Message-ID	<wwv4iejzau6.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
In reply to	#94071

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
> Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> Still, typed doesn’t mean complete immiscibility of types (at least
>> in Python), and a good thing too, since lots of operations take
>> operands of different types. For example if d is an int and G is a
>> Python object representing a point on an elliptic curve, I want to be
>> able to write d*G, not mess around with function calls to do point
>> multiplication.
>
> I've been trying to get up to speed with type hints. Like 'private'
> functions in Python they seem to depend on a gentleman's agreement not
> to do bad things.  Like TypeScript it helps but still has loopholes.

How strictly it’s enforced is a higher-level question. If you deploy and
run Python code indiscriminately then it’s not enforced at all. If you
insist on a `mypy --strict` pass somewhere in your build chain then it’s
pretty solidly enforced.

Much the same is true for code quality filters in other languages. In
any language you might insist on some or all of unit test passes, a code
coverage threshold, static analysis, AI review, human review etc before
deployment. In some languages (e.g. C and C++) you choose which set of
compiler warnings to enable and which of them should be errors. It’s all
“gentleman’s agreement” if you want to characterize it that way, with
relatively few exceptions none of this stuff is unavoidably enforced by
the language implementation.

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#94035

From	Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date	2026-10-17 16:46 +0000
Message-ID	<6ad3a65d$0$31896$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to	#94028

Le 17-10-2026, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>> From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
>> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
>> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
>> works except when they stop to work.
>>
>> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
>> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
>> before the facts.
>
> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>
>     >>> 0+""
>     Traceback (most recent call last):
>       File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
>         0+""
>         ~^~~
>     TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'

In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases it's
not that important.

With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
know.

>> Or you want to see what's in some variables, so you print it with
>> print(myvariable)
>> When you start to have too many variables, you want to put the name of
>> the variable in front of it to increase its visibility, so you
>> print("myvariable: " + myvariable) 
>> but that doesn't work because myvariable is not a string. So you have to 
>> print("myvariable: " + str(myvariable))
>> But now you have the description of myvariable (or something like that:
>> I discovered it a long time ago, my memory isn't clear about it), not
>> its content, so you have to handle it differently (about that, I'm sure).
>
> It sounds like you just haven’t learned Python.

You are right, I haven't learned python. I'm not a programmer. I'm using
programs written by others and sometimes, I have to change them. I don't
have time to learn a programming language when I need to fix a program.
I have to make it run as expected and move on once I get the expected
result.

With python, that looks easy and when I fix something, it breaks
something else for reasons I don't understand. Because the issue was
already there but it wasn't important, until it started to be important
after I changed something else.

And so, for me it always looks like in python things work in a way until
they stop working for unobvious reasons.

With other programming languages I saw, either that works or that
doesn't, but I never saw something that stops working when it starts to
be more complex. It looks like it's a python specialty.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#94036

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-17 19:01 +0200
Message-ID	<11b09ko$dn7j$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94035

On 17/10/2026 18:46, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

[..]

> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
> know.

I guess you confuse assigning a type with creating an object of a 
specific type.

> With python, that looks easy and when I fix something, it breaks
> something else for reasons I don't understand. 

I recommend to install Copilot CLI on your system and ask it to explain 
why your script breaks. It's quite good at explaining is my experience.

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94037

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-17 19:08 +0200
Message-ID	<11b0a1q$du4m$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94036

On 17/10/2026 19:01, John Bokma wrote:
> On 17/10/2026 18:46, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> 
> [..]
> 
>> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
>> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
>> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
>> know.
> 
> I guess you confuse assigning a type with creating an object of a 
> specific type.
> 
>> With python, that looks easy and when I fix something, it breaks
>> something else for reasons I don't understand. 
> 
> I recommend to install Copilot CLI on your system and ask it to explain 
> why your script breaks. It's quite good at explaining is my experience.

Examples:

Explain as a professional Python programmer why 1+True yields 2 and is valid
Thought for 3s

In Python,  bool  is a subclass of  int . The two Boolean values behave 
numerically as  False == 0  and  True == 1 , so adding  True  to  1  is 
equivalent to  1 + 1 :

1 + True       # 2
type(1 + True) # int

It’s valid because Python’s numeric operations accept Boolean values as 
integers. In application code, though, it’s usually clearer to convert 
or count explicitly if you intend to use a Boolean as a number.

Why do I have to declare dictionaries but can use integers and strings 
without declaring their type
Thought for 2s

In Python, you don’t have to declare a dictionary’s type. Python is 
dynamically typed: a variable name refers to an object, and the object 
carries its type.

count = 3          # creates an int object
message = "hello"  # creates a str object
settings = {}      # creates a dict object

Integers and strings have compact literal syntax ( 3 ,  "hello" ); 
dictionaries use  {}  or key-value pairs, such as  {"theme": "dark"} . 
That’s creating a dictionary, not declaring its type.

Type annotations are optional and mainly help readers and 
static-analysis tools:

settings: dict[str, str] = {}

Can't recommend Copilot enough.

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94121

From	Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date	2026-10-18 09:22 +0000
Message-ID	<6ad48fdc$0$11444$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to	#94036

Le 17-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit :
> On 17/10/2026 18:46, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
> [..]
>
>> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
>> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
>> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
>> know.
>
> I guess you confuse assigning a type with creating an object of a 
> specific type.

Probably. Sometimes some methods didn't work if I didn't assign an empty
dictionary first. So, I assumed, maybe wrongly, that assigning an empty
value was declaring it, maybe there are some subtleties.

>> With python, that looks easy and when I fix something, it breaks
>> something else for reasons I don't understand. 
>
> I recommend to install Copilot CLI on your system and ask it to explain 
> why your script breaks. It's quite good at explaining is my experience.

Well, at work I don't install what I want on my computer.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#94065

From	Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2026-10-17 20:29 +0100
Message-ID	<wwv33u4t9bq.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
In reply to	#94035

Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
>>> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
>>> before the facts.
>>
>> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
>> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>>
>>     >>> 0+""
>>     Traceback (most recent call last):
>>       File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
>>         0+""
>>         ~^~~
>>     TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
>
> In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases
> it's not that important.
>
> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
> know.

No special declaration is needed for dicts, you can just write out the
dict you want.

    >>> d={'a': 1, 'b': 2}
    >>> type(d)
    <class 'dict'>

> With other programming languages I saw, either that works or that
> doesn't, but I never saw something that stops working when it starts to
> be more complex. It looks like it's a python specialty.

No, I think the issue here is pretty obviously the attempt to use a tool
without learning how it works.

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#94122

From	Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date	2026-10-18 09:33 +0000
Message-ID	<6ad49284$0$28083$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to	#94065

Le 17-10-2026, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>>> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
>>>> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
>>>> before the facts.
>>>
>>> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
>>> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>>>
>>>     >>> 0+""
>>>     Traceback (most recent call last):
>>>       File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
>>>         0+""
>>>         ~^~~
>>>     TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
>>
>> In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases
>> it's not that important.
>>
>> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
>> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
>> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
>> know.
>
> No special declaration is needed for dicts, you can just write out the
> dict you want.
>
>     >>> d={'a': 1, 'b': 2}
>     >>> type(d)
>     <class 'dict'>

As John said, I'm probably confusing declaring, creating and assigning a
value to a variable. Because when I assigned an empty dictionary to a
variable, all three of them are done at the same time.

The issue wasn't about assigning a new dictionary to a variable, but
adding some values in it. Some methods didn't worked for adding values
if I didn't assign an empty dictionary or an empty list first, before
doing anything on it. 

>> With other programming languages I saw, either that works or that
>> doesn't, but I never saw something that stops working when it starts to
>> be more complex. It looks like it's a python specialty.
>
> No, I think the issue here is pretty obviously the attempt to use a tool
> without learning how it works.

I managed to do it with other programming languages. I managed to do it
with python, to. In the end, it worked. But it was more cumbersome with
python. I'm not saying that a programming language should be able to be
used without being learned. I'm saying that it's not an easier language
to use.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#94086

From	Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date	2026-10-17 20:42 +0000
Message-ID	<11b0mis$iems$7@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94035

On 17 Oct 2026 16:46:21 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases
> it's not that important.

It’s *always* important. Consider why languages like PHP (ptui) and
JavaScript need that extra “===” comparison operator: it’s to disable
automatic type conversions (e.g. number ↔ string) that Python refuses
to do anyway.

> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
> know.

Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?

    ldo@hypatia:~> python3
    Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29) [GCC 16.2.0] on linux
    Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
    >>> a = "some text"
    >>> print(a)
    some text
    >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
    >>> print(a)
    {'colour': 'green'}
    >>>

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#94098

From	rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date	2026-10-18 01:54 +0000
Message-ID	<njin6fFei39U19@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#94086

On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
> 
>     ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
>     [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>     "license"
>     for more information.
>     >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>     some text
>     >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>     >>> print(a)
>     {'colour': 'green'}

Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>> print(a)
{'coluor': 'green'}
>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>> print(a)
{'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}


I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't 
spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad 
hoc fields.

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#94129

From	John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date	2026-10-18 12:11 +0200
Message-ID	<11b25vq$11csg$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#94098

On 18/10/2026 03:54, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> 
>> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>>
>>      ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
>>      [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>>      "license"
>>      for more information.
>>      >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>>      some text
>>      >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>>      >>> print(a)
>>      {'colour': 'green'}
> 
> Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>>> print(a)
> {'coluor': 'green'}
>>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>>> print(a)
> {'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
> 
> 
> I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
> spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad
> hoc fields.

If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps 
kw_only=True).

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#94050

From	Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date	2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Message-ID	<7cPAS.187032$iS_f.6758@fx06.iad>
In reply to	#93989

On 2026-10-17, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:

> So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you want
> to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way.

'Twas ever thus.  A little point-and-shoot camera makes it easy
to grab quick snapshots under good conditions; an SLR with lots
of adjustments is more difficult to use, but can give excellent
results under conditions under which the point-and-shoot fails utterly.

One size does not fit all.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  In this world there are
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  two kinds of people:
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  1. Those who can extrapolate
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  from incomplete data.

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#94067

From	rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date	2026-10-17 19:42 +0000
Message-ID	<nji1crFei39U10@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#93989

On 17 Oct 2026 09:43:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> Le 16-10-2026, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> a écrit :
>> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):
>>
>>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well C++ is a crime against humanity 'operator overloading...' crap
>>>> bloated crap.
>>>
>>> Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly
>>> complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still
>>> manages to be excessively complicated.
>>
>> C++ overly complicated? Nah.
> 
> It's so awful it made its creator declare: "There are only two kinds of
> languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses."

I had the first edition of Stroustrup's book. It was much closer to C With 
Classes than what it's grown into. The language wasn't quite ready for 
prime time, hence the STL that grew into the Standard Library and all the 
Microsoft additions as they tried to make it useful for their purposes.

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