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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 290 — 24 participants |
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Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:37 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:22 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 20:07 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:00 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:26 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:32 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:24 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:27 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:20 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-19 02:19 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:36 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:35 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:18 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 12:12 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 13:43 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 20:37 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 09:07 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-17 13:30 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 20:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 12:04 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nick Charles <none@none.none> - 2026-10-16 23:19 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 02:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-17 01:54 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:58 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:25 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "De ongekruisigde ds." <ongekruisigde-ds@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000
Page 9 of 15 — ← Prev page 1 … 7 8 [9] 10 11 … 15 Next page →
| From | Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 12:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11at5mo$31lan$21@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93855 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 13:03:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > When hiring, I had the option between science band maths graduates who > had taught themselves computing and were humble and hard working and > arrogant CS graduates who thought that anyone without a CS degree didn't > understand computers and were not worth paying respect to. As a side note, it's very likely that someone who's applying for a field they're not qualified for appears more humble. You may find the economics graduates who do _not_ end crawling into computer stuff are not as humble and viceversa. I also think that, generally, whoever opts for a "science" degree does not likely pride oneself in being "hard-working". Science as an intellectual pursuit was, and often still is, the province of noblemen and the wealthy for a reason.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 22:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11au7a1$3m5co$10@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93863 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 12:35:36 -0000 (UTC), Tapiro Ubriaco wrote: > I also think that, generally, whoever opts for a "science" degree > does not likely pride oneself in being "hard-working". Larry Wall, legendary creator of Perl and patch, listed, among the virtues of a good programmer, “laziness” and “hubris”. I can certainly appreciate the “laziness” part. I appreciate it when I look at somebody’s PHP code, where the same validation sequence has been copied and pasted a dozen times for a dozen different input fields, instead of being defined in a single function which is simply called in those dozen places.
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| From | Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 16:37 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn11d4klo.kts.spamtrap42@one.localnet> |
| In reply to | #93841 |
On 2026-10-16, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > ... > > Its about as useless as expecting an ArtStudent™ to paint a room Saw that happen: During the early 1990s, the Pentium Pro processor was being designed on the 1st floor of building JF1. Some executive called that building's interior the ugliest building in the company. Over a weekend or holiday, some art students from Portland State University were brought in to prettify it. They used four or five colors to paint the pillars. Each pillar was one color. The pattern of colors looked random unless you looked at just the right angle and discovered that the colors were in diagonal stripes. The comments from those who worked there were amusing. Someone thought the colored pillars made the building look like the set of the Barney show or maybe Sesame Street. My wife happened to have a white handkerchief with small colored hears in a semi-random pattern. On a small strip of paper, I wrote "You Are Here" next to a red arrow and placed the paper somewhere on the handkerchief hung outside my cubicle. Much laughter was heard. The art students were probably pleased with their work (and what they were paid for doing it). Somebody under the executive added the beautification project as an accomplishment for the next annual performance review. The executive probably never noticed it. Those who worked in the building quit noticing the colors after a few days. -- Robert Riches spamtrap42@jacob21819.net (Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 19:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njfdi7Fit4rU26@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #93841 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 11:04:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > CS graduates should never in my experience get let anywhere near > software design and development. At least in the US CS is sort of a blanket description of anything computer related: https://rpi.app.box.com/s/340c6u82z66dx1k3ms627cp7kbtisqna
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| From | Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 11:44 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <11atgth$3e59h$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93793 |
Leroy H wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):
> It is amazing how knowledge of basic CS is absent in most
> programmers, both professional and amateur alike. While
> "vibe coding" is all the rage, a silent disaster is also
> creeping.
>
> What GNU/Linux requires urgently is a Decimal Floating
> Point library that implements IEEE754-2008, but mention this
> to most programmers and one will receive only blank stares
> and gaping mouths.
>
> The only GNU/Linux project for IEEE754-2008 is closing
> its doors:
>
> <https://github.com/libdfp/libdfp/pull/238>
For C++, Boost.Decimal.
The Free42 calculator provides either binary or a decimal
implementation.
By the way, are you AI?
--
Impartial, adj.: Unable to perceive any promise of personal
advantage from espousing either side of a controversy or adopting
either of two conflicting opinions.
q-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
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| From | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 16:14 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <18df0ea174d534e0$1613$2650862$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com> |
| In reply to | #93883 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 11:44:54 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote: > > For C++, Boost.Decimal. > Some people don't use C++. I would hope that most would not. It is recommended, and even required in some countries, that all financial software be written using decimal FP. But once libdfp drops out then GNU/Linux C programmers will be stuck. > > By the way, are you AI? > Human beings have always been AI in that they can only parrot news reports and their old school textbooks. This has been true since pre-historic times. Occasionally, however, some misaligned freak will rise above it all and then we have a burst of progress.
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| From | Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 17:10 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11atlpr$3g55c$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93887 |
>Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net>wrote: >>On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 11:44:54 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote: > >> >> For C++, Boost.Decimal. >> > >Some people don't use C++. I would hope that most would not. > >It is recommended, and even required in some countries, that all >financial software be written using decimal FP. > >But once libdfp drops out then GNU/Linux C programmers will be >stuck. > Well C++ is a crime against humanity 'operator overloading...' crap bloated crap. But maybe you can call 'wcalc' from the C code, it supports stdin - stdout raspberrypi: ~ # wcalc -EE Enter an expression to evaluate, q to quit, or ? for help: -> 1/pi = 0.318310 -> q raspberrypi: ~ # echo "1/pi" | wcalc = 0.31831 raspberrypi: ~ # echo "1/pi" | wcalc -EE = 0.318310 You can just do decimal in C Use type double if you are worried about microcents. I have written financial software in C. What is the problem?
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| From | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 17:56 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <18df1430054d96d0$1624$2650862$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com> |
| In reply to | #93893 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: > > Well C++ is a crime against humanity > 'operator overloading...' crap bloated crap. > Who would ever disagree? > > You can just do decimal in C > Use type double if you are worried about microcents. > > I have written financial software in C. > What is the problem? > That depends on the scale. For most situations, the currency amounts are enough that the C double type, with 16 decimal digits of precision, can handle the simple processing without error. (C also has a 128-bit long double type but ordinary processors have no hardware for this type. On GNU/Linux the long double is usually defined as 80-bits.) But for large currency amounts and more complex processing, 16 decimal digits may not be enough. That's why decimal floating point is recommended or even required by law. What is needed is HARDWARE decimal FP. IBM has always had decimal FP hardware in its mainframes and it also has decimal FP hardware in its Power PC processors. (Only large institutions could afford such hardware.) Intel/AMD will likely never have DFP hardware. They will keep on adding special AI hardware but never DFP hardware.
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 18:10 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <2MtAS.183747$iS_f.119536@fx06.iad> |
| In reply to | #93900 |
On 2026-10-16, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> wrote: > On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> I have written financial software in C. >> What is the problem? > > That depends on the scale. > > For most situations, the currency amounts are enough that the > C double type, with 16 decimal digits of precision, can handle > the simple processing without error. Now that 64-bit ints are available, you could use them in many situations. > (C also has a 128-bit long double type but ordinary processors > have no hardware for this type. On GNU/Linux the long double > is usually defined as 80-bits.) > > But for large currency amounts and more complex processing, > 16 decimal digits may not be enough. That's why decimal floating > point is recommended or even required by law. > > What is needed is HARDWARE decimal FP. IBM has always had decimal > FP hardware in its mainframes FSVO "always". But the original 360 had packed decimal, which can work with up to 31 decimal digits. I wrote a lot of business software in those days; I can count the number of times I've used floating point on the fingers of one hand. For basic accounting, integer pennies are enough. Add a few guard digits if you must. To quote the old commercial, it "takes the worry out of being close". -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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| From | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 18:32 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <18df162b38ea3edd$2281$2758864$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com> |
| In reply to | #93901 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 18:10:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > Now that 64-bit ints are available, you could use them > in many situations. > For adding or subtracting. But finance calculations often use more complex processing. Interest calculations need floating point and even transcendental math functions. This blogger actually proposes a single numeric type for all digital computation, called Dec64: <https://www.crockford.com/dec64.html>
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 21:52 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11au6ap$3m5co$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93901 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 18:10:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > But the original 360 had packed decimal, which can work with up to > 31 decimal digits. I wrote a lot of business software in those days; > I can count the number of times I've used floating point on the > fingers of one hand. For basic accounting, integer pennies are > enough. Add a few guard digits if you must. To quote the old > commercial, it "takes the worry out of being close". Did you ever do calculations involving financial derivatives? Even compound interest requires calculations involving logarithms and exponentials.
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| From | Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ZpxAS.37512$1l6.19098@fx42.iad> |
| In reply to | #93934 |
On 2026-10-16, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 18:10:06 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> But the original 360 had packed decimal, which can work with up to >> 31 decimal digits. I wrote a lot of business software in those days; >> I can count the number of times I've used floating point on the >> fingers of one hand. For basic accounting, integer pennies are >> enough. Add a few guard digits if you must. To quote the old >> commercial, it "takes the worry out of being close". > > Did you ever do calculations involving financial derivatives? > > Even compound interest requires calculations involving logarithms and > exponentials. That's why I said I've done few programs that use floating point, not none. I've worked on mortgage amortization routines. But most of my stuff consists of adding up columns of numbers and doing the occasional division with rounding. YMMV. IMHO one of the biggest programming mistakes is using floating point when you can do it faster, more accurately, and more easily with integers. That's not to say that there aren't places where floating point is necessary - but for some of us, that's a small portion of what we have to do. I don't need floating point to express IP addresses, for instance. -- /~\ Charlie Gibbs | In this world there are \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | two kinds of people: X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | 1. Those who can extrapolate / \ if you read it the right way. | from incomplete data.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 02:28 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11aumfq$3r5cq$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93943 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 22:19:37 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > IMHO one of the biggest programming mistakes is using floating point > when you can do it faster, more accurately, and more easily with > integers. Some languages offer direct support for “fixed-point” formats, basically integers with a fixed scale factor, so you can do calculations that keep a fractional part. From what I gather, they tend to be difficult to use properly. The problem seems to be keeping calculations within the permissible dynamic range, to avoid overflow and underflow. This is why floating-point tends to be far more popular.
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 01:52 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mMacnbYnUMqwkE73nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #93955 |
On 10/16/26 22:28, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote: > On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 22:19:37 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> IMHO one of the biggest programming mistakes is using floating point >> when you can do it faster, more accurately, and more easily with >> integers. > > Some languages offer direct support for “fixed-point” formats, > basically integers with a fixed scale factor, so you can do > calculations that keep a fractional part. > > From what I gather, they tend to be difficult to use properly. The > problem seems to be keeping calculations within the permissible > dynamic range, to avoid overflow and underflow. > > This is why floating-point tends to be far more popular. "Fuzzy Logic" typically uses floats for everything ... which was a big drain on smaller boards and such. 16 or even 32 bit integers can fill in very nicely for any sane application. DID do an application which employed some 'fuzzy' on an Arduino ... floats ... NO NO NO !!!
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 09:11 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11avajh$59n$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93943 |
On 16/10/2026 23:19, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > IMHO one of the biggest programming mistakes is using floating > point when you can do it faster, more accurately, and more > easily with integers. That's not to say that there aren't > places where floating point is necessary - but for some of > us, that's a small portion of what we have to do. I don't > need floating point to express IP addresses, for instance. You may think that, but the potential for errors is huge. Audio encoding is typically 16 bit integer, but if you are doing serious processing there will be many adds subtracts and multiplies. Its way easier to do all that in FP and then round up to the nearest integer for the final output, than to constantly have to rescae to maintain acceptable precision -- Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. Groucho Marx
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 21:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11au66n$3m5co$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93893 |
On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: > Well C++ is a crime against humanity > 'operator overloading...' crap bloated crap. Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still manages to be excessively complicated. Python, on the other hand, includes operator overloading, yet is still only a small fraction of the complexity of either Java or C++. Such a feature is useful, for example, in letting you express operations on mathematical objects (like vectors and matrices) using something close to the original mathematical notation.
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| From | Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-16 19:39 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <11aucit$3o8ih$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #93932 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed): > On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> Well C++ is a crime against humanity >> 'operator overloading...' crap bloated crap. > > Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly > complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still > manages to be excessively complicated. C++ overly complicated? Nah. > Python, on the other hand, includes operator overloading, yet is still > only a small fraction of the complexity of either Java or C++. Prove it. -- BOFH excuse #404: Sysadmin accidentally destroyed pager with a large hammer.
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 09:43 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad34325$0$3147$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #93948 |
Le 16-10-2026, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> a écrit :
> Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS (fixed):
>
>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>
>>> Well C++ is a crime against humanity
>>> 'operator overloading...' crap bloated crap.
>>
>> Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly
>> complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still
>> manages to be excessively complicated.
>
> C++ overly complicated? Nah.
It's so awful it made its creator declare: "There are only two kinds of
languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses."
If LISP has been able to include oriented object programming nicely,
adding oriented object programming in C without breaking compatibility
didn't worked that well.
>> Python, on the other hand, includes operator overloading, yet is still
>> only a small fraction of the complexity of either Java or C++.
>
> Prove it.
From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
works except when they stop to work.
Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
before the facts.
Or you want to see what's in some variables, so you print it with
print(myvariable)
When you start to have too many variables, you want to put the name of
the variable in front of it to increase its visibility, so you
print("myvariable: " + myvariable)
but that doesn't work because myvariable is not a string. So you have to
print("myvariable: " + str(myvariable))
But now you have the description of myvariable (or something like that:
I discovered it a long time ago, my memory isn't clear about it), not
its content, so you have to handle it differently (about that, I'm sure).
And I'm not speaking about the dependencies. Each version breaks
everything so well that now some distros don't let you install libraries
with pip if you are not in a virtual environment.
So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you want
to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way.
--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 15:02 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wwv33u4o26s.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #93989 |
Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
> From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
> works except when they stop to work.
>
> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
> before the facts.
Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>>> 0+""
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
0+""
~^~~
TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
Historically it was not a statically typed language, i.e. type errors
only arose at runtime.
Today even that is not really true, in the sense that if you want it to
be statically typed then you can have that:
$ cat -n junk/t.py
1 #!/usr/bin/python3
2 def f(a: int, b: int) -> int:
3 return a+b
4 print(f(0, 0))
5 print(f(0, ""))
$ mypy junk/t.py
junk/t.py:5: error: Argument 2 to "f" has incompatible type "str"; expected "int" [arg-type]
Found 1 error in 1 file (checked 1 source file)
> Or you want to see what's in some variables, so you print it with
> print(myvariable)
> When you start to have too many variables, you want to put the name of
> the variable in front of it to increase its visibility, so you
> print("myvariable: " + myvariable)
> but that doesn't work because myvariable is not a string. So you have to
> print("myvariable: " + str(myvariable))
> But now you have the description of myvariable (or something like that:
> I discovered it a long time ago, my memory isn't clear about it), not
> its content, so you have to handle it differently (about that, I'm sure).
It sounds like you just haven’t learned Python.
> And I'm not speaking about the dependencies. Each version breaks
> everything so well that now some distros don't let you install
> libraries with pip if you are not in a virtual environment.
>
> So, yes to do something simple, python is fast and easy. But if you
> want to power of C++ and Java, you can't use python on a simple way.
We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues
(exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not
really problematic.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 15:06 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11avve0$8cd3$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94028 |
On 17/10/2026 15:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues > (exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not > really problematic. Wow. someone has a real use for it! I just am too old to become proficient in another language, I am still battling JavaScript -- "It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"
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