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LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks

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  LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-03 20:50 -0400
    Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-04 07:10 +0000
      Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-04 10:44 +0200
        Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-04 17:53 +0000
          Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-05 02:47 -0400
            Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-05 20:26 +0000
      Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-04 11:14 +0100
        Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-04 18:07 +0000
          Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-05 02:55 -0400
            Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-05 11:42 +0100
            Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-05 14:09 +0000
              Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-05 18:42 +0100
                Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-08-05 20:19 +0000
                  Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-05 22:38 +0000
                    Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-06 12:45 +0100
                  Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-06 12:19 +0100
                Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-05 22:36 +0000
                  Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-06 12:37 +0100
                Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-06 02:19 -0400
              Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-06 02:18 -0400
              Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-08-06 14:22 +0200
          Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-05 11:40 +0100
            Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-05 20:39 +0000
              Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-06 12:35 +0100
      Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-05 00:58 -0400
        Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-05 06:14 +0000
          Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-08-05 03:52 -0400
            Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-08-05 14:07 +0000
          Re: LOTS of US Water Plants Hit by Hacks The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-05 11:46 +0100

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#89638

On 2026-08-05 16:09, rbowman wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 02:55:04 -0400, c186282 wrote:
> 
>>     Not sure how much 'steppers' were involved in THESE hacks. Sounds
>>     more like spoofing instrument readings to cause downstream machinery
>>     to run wild until it broke.
> 
> Steppers faded away in the '70s. Mostly. Never underestimate the use of
> obsolete tech in US infrastructure.

If I understand correctly what steppers are, washing machines here have 
been using them till recently. My previous one had that.

-- 
Cheers,
        Carlos E.R.
        ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#89586

On 04/08/2026 19:07, rbowman wrote:
> the wiring harness being laced rather than
> using those new fangled nylon TyWraps.  Fortunately the girls, excuse me,
> female electronics technicians, were skilled in macrame.

I grew up with laced looms. Frankly a skilled operator can do them 
faster than tie-wraps, and cheaper. I can still lace.

-- 
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted 
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest 
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly 
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid 
before him."

    - Leo Tolstoy

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#89615

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 11:40:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 04/08/2026 19:07, rbowman wrote:
>> the wiring harness being laced rather than using those new fangled
>> nylon TyWraps.  Fortunately the girls, excuse me,
>> female electronics technicians, were skilled in macrame.
> 
> I grew up with laced looms. Frankly a skilled operator can do them
> faster than tie-wraps, and cheaper. I can still lace.

I was a hair late for lacing. The last large control panels I designed 
used what we called Wiremold although I don't think that is the correct 
term.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lKbCL0Gy2Y

He finally opens the door at around 1:50 and it looks like home. With the 
wiremold you could add or replace wires as need without messing about with 
a harness. 

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#89631

On 05/08/2026 21:39, rbowman wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 11:40:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> On 04/08/2026 19:07, rbowman wrote:
>>> the wiring harness being laced rather than using those new fangled
>>> nylon TyWraps.  Fortunately the girls, excuse me,
>>> female electronics technicians, were skilled in macrame.
>>
>> I grew up with laced looms. Frankly a skilled operator can do them
>> faster than tie-wraps, and cheaper. I can still lace.
> 
> I was a hair late for lacing. The last large control panels I designed
> used what we called Wiremold although I don't think that is the correct
> term.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lKbCL0Gy2Y
> 
> He finally opens the door at around 1:50 and it looks like home. With the
> wiremold you could add or replace wires as need without messing about with
> a harness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_lacing

That is what we did. Often with solid core wires bent round nails driven 
into wood to identify branch points.

Solid core was best for fixed installations where the wires were 
soldered as they didn't have stress concentrations at the soldered joint

Then the loom was held down with cable ties - not zip ties - loops of 
plastic with holes at the end for a screw

Surprisingly cheap compared to today's prices for looms. Minimum wage or 
piece work by home workers in the consumer industry...serried ranks of 
nimble fingered Asian ladies on the shop floor for Mil Spec

(Flexible) PCBs today are cheaper.  I remember trying to get everything 
to mount off PCBs by the late 1970s...


-- 
“It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of 
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people 
who pay no price for being wrong.”

Thomas Sowell

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#89569

On 8/4/26 03:10, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:
> 
>>     Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack
>>     them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays or
>>     equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more "computers",
>>     oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a fair software
>>     PLC. A low-end PI even better.
> 
> https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware
> 
> What's a hardware PLC? 

   There ARE 'chips' ... or, cruder, boards with
   a lot of transistors.

   Anyway, the GOAL is to replace those big boxes
   full of mechanical relays ye and me both remember.

   That "PLCs" are being BLAMED for these hacks - now
   that's just bullshit. Modern PLCs are set up using
   modern software - and THAT'S what's being hacked.

> It amazed me to find that they still use the ladder
> logic metaphor. I thought that was a temporary crutch 
 > when they started showing up in the '70s.
   Never loved "ladder logic" diagrams. I've DONE
   it - in hardware and software - but it's not my
   favored perspective. Pref a more straight-up,
   logic-based, point of view. Yea yea, PLCs are
   "simple" and "rugged" - BUT .......

   IMHO, 'software' based PLCs are the only modern
   way to go. Alas that also introduces vulnerabilities.

   Industries NEED PLCs ... so much machinery that
   needs coordination/logic.

   Clicky-clicky-clicky ... DID kind of like those
   old boxes full of relays  :-)

   Anyway, are PLCs responsible for all these nasty
   hack in middle-America ? I don't think so. It's
   the all-ONLINE paradigm instead.

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#89576

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 00:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:

> On 8/4/26 03:10, rbowman wrote:
>> On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:
>> 
>>>     Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack
>>>     them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays
>>>     or equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more
>>>     "computers",
>>>     oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a fair
>>>     software PLC. A low-end PI even better.
>> 
>> https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware
>> 
>> What's a hardware PLC?
> 
>    There ARE 'chips' ... or, cruder, boards with a lot of transistors.

Semantics. A transition device was Square D's NorPak system. There were a 
number of different cards that that mounted in a frame similar to  a 
backplane. NOR gates are the simplest so those were the basic building 
blocks. Working with NOR, NAND, and NOT gates leads to brain bleed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Norpak-Square-D-8852-L-19-Counter-4-Input-NOR-20-
Pack-Series-A-FREE-SHIPPING-/282588704448

'Programming' was done by stripping wire, crimping on a tapered pin, and 
seating it with a too like an automatic center punch. Solid state relay 
logic...

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#89582

On 8/5/26 02:14, rbowman wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 00:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:
> 
>> On 8/4/26 03:10, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:
>>>
>>>>      Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack
>>>>      them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays
>>>>      or equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more
>>>>      "computers",
>>>>      oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a fair
>>>>      software PLC. A low-end PI even better.
>>>
>>> https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware
>>>
>>> What's a hardware PLC?
>>
>>     There ARE 'chips' ... or, cruder, boards with a lot of transistors.
> 
> Semantics. A transition device was Square D's NorPak system. There were a
> number of different cards that that mounted in a frame similar to  a
> backplane. NOR gates are the simplest so those were the basic building
> blocks. Working with NOR, NAND, and NOT gates leads to brain bleed.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Norpak-Square-D-8852-L-19-Counter-4-Input-NOR-20-
> Pack-Series-A-FREE-SHIPPING-/282588704448
> 
> 'Programming' was done by stripping wire, crimping on a tapered pin, and
> seating it with a too like an automatic center punch. Solid state relay
> logic...

   Modern PLCs do not involve placing wires.

   HAVE done that, but the new paradigm is
   more 'software" or "software defined"

   These cyber-attacks ... they seem to have
   been aimed at a specific, widely used,
   PLC/programmming paradigm. FAIR chance
   nobody changed the default passwords.

   Governments tend to copy OTHER nearby
   govts ... "State/County X uses THIS and
   thus this justifies US using X".'

   Been there, seen this from the bureaucracy.
   The IDEA is to cover their asses in case
   something goes wrong. "We just did what
   THEY did !!!". Yet another reason I retired.

   It's all M$ Fault regardless, not OUR
   fault !!!

   Anyway, it was interesting to see "PLCs"
   blamed. Sorry, it's NOT the PLCs but
   WAY up the chain.

   CyberIdiocy CAN destroy us.

   What happens when they get into the power
   plants, the NUKE power plants ???

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#89601

On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 03:52:07 -0400, c186282 wrote:

>    Modern PLCs do not involve placing wires.
> 
>    HAVE done that, but the new paradigm is more 'software" or "software
>    defined"

That was my point.  PROGRAMMABLE logic controllers were PROGRAMMABLE and 
replaced solid state controllers that were a TTL version of relay logic. 

Of course, when you are interfacing with the real world some wiring is 
necessary unless you go full wireless but that's another story.

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#89588

On 05/08/2026 07:14, rbowman wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Aug 2026 00:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:
> 
>> On 8/4/26 03:10, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Mon, 3 Aug 2026 20:50:24 -0400, c186282 wrote:
>>>
>>>>      Anyway, hardware PLCs are pretty stupid - you don't actually hack
>>>>      them directly. They're basically a replacement for a box of relays
>>>>      or equivs. Software PLCs - a uC or even better - are more
>>>>      "computers",
>>>>      oft net-connected these days. An Ard Uno would make a fair
>>>>      software PLC. A low-end PI even better.
>>>
>>> https://www.realpars.com/blog/plc-hardware
>>>
>>> What's a hardware PLC?
>>
>>     There ARE 'chips' ... or, cruder, boards with a lot of transistors.
> 
> Semantics. A transition device was Square D's NorPak system. There were a
> number of different cards that that mounted in a frame similar to  a
> backplane. NOR gates are the simplest so those were the basic building
> blocks. Working with NOR, NAND, and NOT gates leads to brain bleed.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Norpak-Square-D-8852-L-19-Counter-4-Input-NOR-20-
> Pack-Series-A-FREE-SHIPPING-/282588704448
> 
> 'Programming' was done by stripping wire, crimping on a tapered pin, and
> seating it with a too like an automatic center punch. Solid state relay
> logic...

Today its probably easier to have e.g. an RP2030 in there.

Car ECMs are essentially state machines. For each combination of 
sensors, there is an optimal set of output switches. And because memory 
is easer to manufacture than PLCs they hold the whole engine state 
machine map in NVRAM



-- 
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle 
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump 
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the 
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is 
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

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