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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #88894 > unrolled thread

Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s

Started byc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
First post2026-07-18 19:38 -0400
Last post2026-07-19 04:32 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 119 — 14 participants

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  Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-18 19:38 -0400
    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-19 01:29 +0000
      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-18 22:09 -0400
      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-07-20 08:55 +1000
        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-20 00:52 -0400
          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-07-20 14:13 +0200
            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-20 14:20 +0100
            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2026-07-20 17:49 +0200
              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-07-20 16:12 +0000
                Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-20 18:30 +0000
                  Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-20 19:36 +0100
                    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-21 01:31 +0000
                      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2026-07-21 22:32 +0200
                  Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-07-20 19:29 +0000
                    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-21 01:47 +0000
                      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-07-21 04:05 +0000
                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-21 00:16 -0400
                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-21 07:27 +0000
                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-21 21:18 -0400
                              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-22 03:16 +0000
                                Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-21 23:33 -0400
                                  Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-22 07:22 +0000
                                    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-22 12:52 +0100
                                      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-22 17:56 +0000
                                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-23 11:06 +0100
                                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-23 19:00 +0000
                                Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-22 12:51 +0100
                                  Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-22 18:31 +0000
                                    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-23 11:07 +0100
                                      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-23 19:49 +0000
                  Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2026-07-20 21:39 +0200
                    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-07-20 20:26 +0000
                      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-20 21:54 +0100
                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-07-21 04:10 +0000
                    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-20 21:53 +0100
                      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-21 02:06 +0000
                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-21 10:33 +0100
                      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-07-21 04:13 +0000
                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-21 10:36 +0100
                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-21 18:29 +0000
                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-21 20:45 +0100
                              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2026-07-21 22:48 +0200
                                Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-21 23:32 +0000
                                  Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-07-22 00:02 +0000
                                  Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-22 12:50 +0100
                                    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-07-22 14:35 +0000
                                      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2026-07-22 17:04 +0200
                                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-22 18:35 +0000
                                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-22 23:41 -0400
                                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-23 04:14 +0000
                                              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-23 23:22 -0400
                                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> - 2026-07-23 08:26 +0100
                                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-23 11:00 +0100
                                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-22 22:54 +0000
                                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-23 10:57 +0100
                                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-23 19:44 +0000
                                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-23 20:57 +0100
                                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-07-23 22:04 +0000
                              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-21 23:29 +0000
                                Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-22 12:49 +0100
                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-21 23:34 -0400
                              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-22 12:57 +0100
                                Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2026-07-22 16:22 +0200
                                  Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-22 17:59 +0000
                                  Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-22 22:51 +0000
                                  Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-23 10:51 +0100
                                    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2026-07-23 18:43 +0200
                                      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-23 19:33 +0000
                                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-07-23 22:04 +0000
                                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-24 01:32 +0000
                                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-07-24 13:59 +0200
                                      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-23 20:37 +0100
                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-07-21 11:40 +0200
                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-21 18:07 +0000
                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-22 01:19 +0000
                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-21 21:32 -0400
                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-22 08:31 +0100
                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-07-22 13:42 +0200
                              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-07-22 14:35 +0000
                                Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-22 22:49 +0000
                              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-22 18:29 +0000
                              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-22 22:46 +0000
                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-07-22 10:21 +0200
                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-07-22 13:39 +0200
                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-22 17:54 +0000
                      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2026-07-21 22:30 +0200
        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-20 12:24 +0100
          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-20 18:01 +0000
            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-07-20 20:21 +0000
              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-21 01:21 +0000
                Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-07-21 04:22 +0000
                  Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-21 07:22 +0000
                  Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-07-21 08:39 +0100
                    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-07-21 12:53 +0000
                    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-21 21:25 -0400
                      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-22 04:04 +0000
                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-07-22 04:17 +0000
                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-22 23:09 -0400
                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-23 04:45 +0000
                              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-23 23:31 -0400
                                Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-24 11:01 +0100
                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-23 11:10 +0100
                              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-23 19:15 +0000
                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2026-07-23 18:49 +0200
                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2026-07-22 16:27 +0200
                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-22 17:44 +0000
                        Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-22 23:05 -0400
                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-23 11:09 +0100
                          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-07-23 22:04 +0000
                            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-24 01:44 +0000
                              Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-23 23:39 -0400
                                Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-24 07:15 +0000
                                Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-24 11:00 +0100
                    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2026-07-22 16:24 +0200
          Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-07-21 00:10 -0400
            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-21 10:34 +0100
            Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-07-21 12:55 +0000
    Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-19 03:58 +0100
      Re: Interesting - Ukraine Missiles Use Open Source, Russians Use Pi-4s rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-07-19 04:32 +0000

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#88991

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-07-22 18:29 +0000
Message-ID<nccggrFuaclU5@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#88975
On Wed, 22 Jul 2026 13:42:47 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> There was a time in the Christian world where doctors were frowned upon.
> Either god gave you health, or not. You just prayed to get well. Doctors
> should not interfere. They could take a page out of the bible and put it
> inside the wound.

You wouldn't have to go far in the US to find that belief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science

Some adherents are more extreme than others. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling_in_Christianity

I don't think the Snake Strokers are big on doctors either. Benny Hinn has 
done very well with faith healing although his followers may use doctors. 
It's not limited to Protestant sects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupr%C3%A9

The church features a collection of crutches and so forth. I haven't been 
there in over 50 years so they may have added mobility scooters. We went 
to Quebec for our honeymoon and Ste. Anne's is one of the local 
attractions. My wife was not Catholic and found it interesting. There is 
an outdoor Stations of the Cross, iirc. They also have a replica of the 
“Scala Santa”. It's a wooden staircase with 28 steps that you climb on 
your knees while saying the Rosary.

Turnabout is fair play. After we separated she joined a church that 
featured speaking in tongues and spontaneous yells of 'Praise Jesus!' and 
the like. I was as comfortable as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

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#88994

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-07-22 22:46 +0000
Message-ID<113rh7v$3bo6k$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#88975
On Wed, 22 Jul 2026 13:42:47 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> There was a time in the Christian world where doctors were frowned
> upon. Either god gave you health, or not. You just prayed to get
> well. Doctors should not interfere. They could take a page out of
> the bible and put it inside the wound.

When anaesthetic was invented, some objected to it on religious
grounds -- because it would let women experience childbirth without
pain. Because there is something in Genesis about how Adam and Eve
were cursed when they were thrown out of the Garden of Eden, and part
of the curse was that women had to suffer during childbirth.

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#88973

FromAndreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de>
Date2026-07-22 10:21 +0200
Message-ID<87v7a7igdt.fsf@eder.anydns.info>
In reply to#88941
On Di 21 Jul 2026 at 04:13, Rich wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 20/07/2026 20:39, s|b wrote:
>>> On 20 Jul 2026 18:30:21 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Aircraft carriers are 20th century technology. They lose their appeal if
>>>> you have to park them 1000 miles away. I don't know if the Iranians have
>>>> the capability but China and Russia certainly do.
>>> 
>>> Ukraine has drones that can fly over 3.000 km, so if Iran has those,
>>> then those carriers will have to park them even further.
>>> 
>> We can be thankful that Islam does not mesh well with Science.
>
> Which is odd, given that a great number of centuries ago, the Islamic 
> world of that age was inventing scientific breakthrough after 
> scientific breakthrough.
>
> Modern Islam (at least the current 'strict' reading by the extremists) 
> is what does not mesh well with science.  Islam of yore did mesh well.  
> Something changed in the centries from then to now.

It hasn't got much to do with Islam per se, it is more the 'strict' that
is important. Look at the Evangelicals in the U.S..

'Andreas

-- 
ceterum censeo redmondinem esse delendam

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#88974

From"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2026-07-22 13:39 +0200
Message-ID<ncbofuFc5a2U8@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#88973
On 2026-07-22 10:21, Andreas Eder wrote:
> On Di 21 Jul 2026 at 04:13, Rich wrote:
> 
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 20/07/2026 20:39, s|b wrote:
>>>> On 20 Jul 2026 18:30:21 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Aircraft carriers are 20th century technology. They lose their appeal if
>>>>> you have to park them 1000 miles away. I don't know if the Iranians have
>>>>> the capability but China and Russia certainly do.
>>>>
>>>> Ukraine has drones that can fly over 3.000 km, so if Iran has those,
>>>> then those carriers will have to park them even further.
>>>>
>>> We can be thankful that Islam does not mesh well with Science.
>>
>> Which is odd, given that a great number of centuries ago, the Islamic
>> world of that age was inventing scientific breakthrough after
>> scientific breakthrough.
>>
>> Modern Islam (at least the current 'strict' reading by the extremists)
>> is what does not mesh well with science.  Islam of yore did mesh well.
>> Something changed in the centries from then to now.
> 
> It hasn't got much to do with Islam per se, it is more the 'strict' that
> is important. Look at the Evangelicals in the U.S..

A room of them imposing their hands (or something) on Trump.

-- 
Cheers,
        Carlos E.R.
        ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#88988

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-07-22 17:54 +0000
Message-ID<nccedsFuaclU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#88973
On Wed, 22 Jul 2026 10:21:34 +0200, Andreas Eder wrote:

> It hasn't got much to do with Islam per se, it is more the 'strict' that
> is important. Look at the Evangelicals in the U.S..

There is a state park in the eastern part of the state with many fossil 
remains including T. Rex and Triceratops. Interpretive trails explain the 
history and geology.

On the other side of the small town there is a museum claiming the 
dinosaurs and humans coexisted and Noah may have rounded some up for the 
ark. A foundation run by are governor has been generous, including 
donating a T. Rex replica.

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#88956

From"s|b" <me@privacy.invalid>
Date2026-07-21 22:30 +0200
Message-ID<nca36oFj7idU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#88932
On Mon, 20 Jul 2026 21:53:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> We can be thankful that Islam does not mesh well with Science.

That's a misconception. Why do you think Israel bombed schools and
universities in Iran? It's not because they were harbouring nukes. IIRC
a lot of women graduated from those universities, even more than men.

-- 
s|b

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#88919

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-07-20 12:24 +0100
Message-ID<113l0hq$14e0h$5@dont-email.me>
In reply to#88909
On 19/07/2026 23:55, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 19:38:31 -0400, c186282 wrote:
>>>     Meanwhile, everything made in USA costs a million dollars per unit
>>>     and take forever to build.
>>
>> I forget who said 'Generals do not end wars; accountants do.'  Estimates
>> vary but the Tamir missile used by Iron Dome costs around $50K. When you
>> use them to blow up a $5K DJI drone the costs add up fast. That's chicken
>> feed compared to the cost of a Tomahawk.
> 
> The USA and Israel are getting deep into laser weapons now

UK already has them

> for that
> reason, but I'm just waiting for drones/missiles to arrive sporting
> mirrors designed to reflect those beams back and set fire to things
> on the ground instead.
> 
Not very aerodynamic.
Easier to buzz along hugging the terrain.

Your general purpose drone deploys photovoltaic 'wings' by day and 
crawls, swims or flies towards its target until it smells the particular 
DNA combination in the air, when its off like a bloodhound to its 
intended target, and it's bye bye Trump, or Putin, or Justin Bieber...

-- 
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

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#88924

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-07-20 18:01 +0000
Message-ID<nc7649F4a0qU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#88919
On Mon, 20 Jul 2026 12:24:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 19/07/2026 23:55, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 19:38:31 -0400, c186282 wrote:
>>>>     Meanwhile, everything made in USA costs a million dollars per
>>>>     unit and take forever to build.
>>>
>>> I forget who said 'Generals do not end wars; accountants do.'
>>> Estimates vary but the Tamir missile used by Iron Dome costs around
>>> $50K. When you use them to blow up a $5K DJI drone the costs add up
>>> fast. That's chicken feed compared to the cost of a Tomahawk.
>> 
>> The USA and Israel are getting deep into laser weapons now
> 
> UK already has them

DragonFire might be operational next year and may live up to the hype. 
Apparently US air defense systems aren't 100% successful, The media seem 
reluctant to examine the repercussions of Iran hitting US assets in 
Jordan.

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#88930

FromRich <rich@example.invalid>
Date2026-07-20 20:21 +0000
Message-ID<113m00c$1fdi4$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#88924
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jul 2026 12:24:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> On 19/07/2026 23:55, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 18 Jul 2026 19:38:31 -0400, c186282 wrote:
>>>>>     Meanwhile, everything made in USA costs a million dollars per 
>>>>>     unit and take forever to build.
>>>>
>>>> I forget who said 'Generals do not end wars; accountants do.' 
>>>> Estimates vary but the Tamir missile used by Iron Dome costs 
>>>> around $50K.  When you use them to blow up a $5K DJI drone the 
>>>> costs add up fast.  That's chicken feed compared to the cost of a 
>>>> Tomahawk.
>>> 
>>> The USA and Israel are getting deep into laser weapons now
>> 
>> UK already has them
> 
> DragonFire might be operational next year and may live up to the 
> hype.  Apparently US air defense systems aren't 100% successful, The 
> media seem reluctant to examine the repercussions of Iran hitting US 
> assets in Jordan.

And therein lies the problem with "swarms of cheap drones".  The 
attacker can build, and launch, 50 "low cost drones" (granted, $50k 
seems a lot, but it is 'low cost' as compared to a US Military missle 
of 5M and up each) at an attack target.

The drone defense has to be 100% perfect every time because if even one 
drone survives to its target, some damage will be taken by the target.  
And it is very unlikely *any* of the air/drone defense systems are 100% 
perfect every time.

Plus, if the "drone defence" is firing anything that is more costly to 
build than the drone itself, then there is a significant asymetric cost 
factor applied to the defender as well.

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#88934

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-07-21 01:21 +0000
Message-ID<nc7vtbF7pt3U2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#88930
On Mon, 20 Jul 2026 20:21:32 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

> Plus, if the "drone defence" is firing anything that is more costly to
> build than the drone itself, then there is a significant asymetric cost
> factor applied to the defender as well.

They are more flying sewer pipes than drones but taking out a $500 Qassam 
rocket with a $50,000 Tamir missile is asymmetric. A Qassam can't hit the 
proverbial broad side of a barn but it might get lucky and hit something 
other than a sheep so they can't be ignored. 

Something that might actually hit a HVT ups the game considerably.

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#88943

FromRich <rich@example.invalid>
Date2026-07-21 04:22 +0000
Message-ID<113ms5i$1n2nt$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#88934
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jul 2026 20:21:32 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
> 
>> Plus, if the "drone defence" is firing anything that is more costly to
>> build than the drone itself, then there is a significant asymetric cost
>> factor applied to the defender as well.
> 
> They are more flying sewer pipes than drones but taking out a $500 Qassam 
> rocket with a $50,000 Tamir missile is asymmetric. A Qassam can't hit the 
> proverbial broad side of a barn but it might get lucky and hit something 
> other than a sheep so they can't be ignored. 
> 
> Something that might actually hit a HVT ups the game considerably.

Yeah, if the accuracy increases (and it does not need to increase much 
to become a real danger) that very much changes things.

But even so, at a 100:1 cost ratio, someone can lob 100 Qassam rockets 
towards a single target for the price of one Tamir missle.  Even if the 
Tamir could somehow take out 99 of the Qassam's (it can't) that still 
leaves one that will explode somewhere the defender really does not 
want explosions happening.

If two Tamir's are used against the swarm, then the swarm could be 200 
large before it again cost the same as the two missles.  And two 
missles won't take out all 200 incoming, so still, one or more 
explosions somewhere you'd rather not have any explosions.

The "swarm offense" with cheap weapons creates a very different 
battlefield than the traditional one where both sides are lobbing 
ordinance at roughly the same rate and roughly the same cost per lob.

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#88944

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-07-21 07:22 +0000
Message-ID<nc8l25F7pt3U7@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#88943
On Tue, 21 Jul 2026 04:22:11 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

> The "swarm offense" with cheap weapons creates a very different
> battlefield than the traditional one where both sides are lobbing
> ordinance at roughly the same rate and roughly the same cost per lob.

The lobs get a little pricey. The Zumwalt class ships were designed around 
the Advanced Gun System. The ships themselves had problems and had to call 
AAA for a tow home a couple of times. Then the Navy realized the AGS took 
very special ammunition at around a million a pop. The program was 
scrapped and the AGS systems removed.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Gun_System

BAE and Lockheed smiled all the way to the bank. They didn't even have the 
possible problem of the systems not working well.I don't think the Long-
Range Hypersonic Weapon is ready for prime time yet. There was talk about 
using it against Iran. The existing HIMARS launched missiles don't have 
enough range.

Fortunately the Navy still has the Arleigh-Burke class. They were going to 
stop building them before the Zumwalt class fell on its face.

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#88946

FromAndy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
Date2026-07-21 08:39 +0100
Message-ID<nc8m07Fbjc9U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#88943
Rich wrote:

> at a 100:1 cost ratio, someone can lob 100 Qassam rockets
> towards a single target for the price of one Tamir missle.  Even if the
> Tamir could somehow take out 99 of the Qassam's (it can't) that still
> leaves one that will explode somewhere the defender really does not
> want explosions happening.
> 
> If two Tamir's are used against the swarm, then the swarm could be 200
> large before it again cost the same as the two missles.  And two
> missles won't take out all 200 incoming, so still, one or more
> explosions somewhere you'd rather not have any explosions.

Isn't this where AI steps in and says
"A strange game, the only winning move is not to play"?

FX: hollow-laughter

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#88951

FromRich <rich@example.invalid>
Date2026-07-21 12:53 +0000
Message-ID<113nq4f$201do$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#88946
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Rich wrote:
> 
>> at a 100:1 cost ratio, someone can lob 100 Qassam rockets towards a 
>> single target for the price of one Tamir missle.  Even if the Tamir 
>> could somehow take out 99 of the Qassam's (it can't) that still 
>> leaves one that will explode somewhere the defender really does not 
>> want explosions happening.
>> 
>> If two Tamir's are used against the swarm, then the swarm could be 
>> 200 large before it again cost the same as the two missles.  And two 
>> missles won't take out all 200 incoming, so still, one or more 
>> explosions somewhere you'd rather not have any explosions.
> 
> Isn't this where AI steps in and says
> "A strange game, the only winning move is not to play"?
> 
> FX: hollow-laughter

Or, as in the classic Star Trek series plot from the late 60's, the AI 
"fights a simulated war and determines who won" and the losing side 
submits the AI's determined number of human casulties to be 
"evaporated".

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#88964

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-07-21 21:25 -0400
Message-ID<hNudnXyk-Yv2gf33nZ2dnZfqn_adnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#88946
On 7/21/26 03:39, Andy Burns wrote:
> Rich wrote:
> 
>> at a 100:1 cost ratio, someone can lob 100 Qassam rockets
>> towards a single target for the price of one Tamir missle.  Even if the
>> Tamir could somehow take out 99 of the Qassam's (it can't) that still
>> leaves one that will explode somewhere the defender really does not
>> want explosions happening.
>>
>> If two Tamir's are used against the swarm, then the swarm could be 200
>> large before it again cost the same as the two missles.  And two
>> missles won't take out all 200 incoming, so still, one or more
>> explosions somewhere you'd rather not have any explosions.
> 
> Isn't this where AI steps in and says
> "A strange game, the only winning move is not to play"?
> 
> FX: hollow-laughter

   The trouble is that "They" never stop playing,
   so WE can't either. The conqueror mindset seems
   to be built into the species.

   Movies aren't Real Life, Real People. Movies
   can be 'idealistic', All You Need Is Love, but ...

   SO ... the USA/west needs something at least as
   good, and CHEAP, as "Irondome". This IS the
   paradigm for 21st century conflicts - send a
   swarm of hornets instead of a battleship or
   masses of soldiers.

   Those who can pack the most bang into a Pi-5
   level processor WINS.

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#88969

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-07-22 04:04 +0000
Message-ID<ncatr0F7pt3U16@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#88964
On Tue, 21 Jul 2026 21:25:45 -0400, c186282 wrote:

>    SO ... the USA/west needs something at least as good, and CHEAP, as
>    "Irondome". This IS the paradigm for 21st century conflicts - send a
>    swarm of hornets instead of a battleship or masses of soldiers.

Tamir rockets aren't cheap. However the US has provided about $2.6 billion 
to the program. I assume much of that trickled back to Raytheon.

The US will have the Golden Dome sometime around the 12th of Never. Being 
Trump, it has to be Golden of course. I think someplace buried in the 
Pentagon Reagan's Star Wars scheme is alive and well on a ventilator. 
CHEAP ain't happening.

You need to do a reality check about Iron Dome. Israel is larger than 
Connecticut and smaller than New Jersey. That doesn't scale well to the US 
or even Europe. It might work for Slovenia.

That bit of reality amazes me. If the Arabs ever got their act together 
they should be able to roll up the country like a rug. Of course there is 
Big Brother and the supposed atomic bombs.

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#88970

FromRobert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net>
Date2026-07-22 04:17 +0000
Message-ID<slrn1160h2u.8cb.spamtrap42@one.localnet>
In reply to#88969
On 2026-07-22, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
> You need to do a reality check about Iron Dome. Israel is larger than 
> Connecticut and smaller than New Jersey. That doesn't scale well to the US 
> or even Europe. It might work for Slovenia.
>
> That bit of reality amazes me. If the Arabs ever got their act together 
> they should be able to roll up the country like a rug. Of course there is 
> Big Brother and the supposed atomic bombs. 

Some decades ago, Paul Harvey had an interesting take on Israel's
need for nuclear deterrent.  He figured Israel needed only two
nukes to guarantee their enemies would never push far enough to
require use of the nukes.  One would be aimed at the Aswan High
Dam in Egypt, which would destroy basically all of Egypt--and/or
make pretty much all of Egypt uninhabitable for centuries.  The
other would be aimed at Mecca.

-- 
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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#88999

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-07-22 23:09 -0400
Message-ID<H8ydnYticMmSG_z3nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#88970
On 7/22/26 00:17, Robert Riches wrote:
> On 2026-07-22, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>
>> You need to do a reality check about Iron Dome. Israel is larger than
>> Connecticut and smaller than New Jersey. That doesn't scale well to the US
>> or even Europe. It might work for Slovenia.
>>
>> That bit of reality amazes me. If the Arabs ever got their act together
>> they should be able to roll up the country like a rug. Of course there is
>> Big Brother and the supposed atomic bombs.
> 
> Some decades ago, Paul Harvey had an interesting take on Israel's
> need for nuclear deterrent.  He figured Israel needed only two
> nukes to guarantee their enemies would never push far enough to
> require use of the nukes.  One would be aimed at the Aswan High
> Dam in Egypt, which would destroy basically all of Egypt--and/or
> make pretty much all of Egypt uninhabitable for centuries.  The
> other would be aimed at Mecca.

   Egypt is not a major enemy of Israel - hasn't
   been for a LONG time.

   Mecca ... symbolic, but ........

   Israel apparently has 50-100 nuclear weapons
   at this point. Mostly "small", but still very
   deadly.

   IF an Iranian nuke goes off anywhere near
   Israel then Iran is just literal TOAST.

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#89002

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-07-23 04:45 +0000
Message-ID<ncdkisFuaclU11@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#88999
On Wed, 22 Jul 2026 23:09:07 -0400, c186282 wrote:

>    IF an Iranian nuke goes off anywhere near Israel then Iran is just
>    literal TOAST.

Again scale comes into play. Iran is 636,372 sq mi. Israel isn't even a 
hundredth of that. Which would be easier to turn into a parking lot? Iran 
has 20 cities over 400,000 population; Israel has 2. 

If anyone is thinking about boots on the ground Iran is one of the most 
mountainous countries in the world. As the US found out in Afghanistan 
when you play with the locals on their own turf they will hand you your 
ass. Best hang around the green zone in Kabul and come up with a good 
story for the US people about what you're doing for 20 years before 
handing the country back to the Taliban.

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#89026

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-07-23 23:31 -0400
Message-ID<VbicndAwutNnQf_3nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#89002
On 7/23/26 00:45, rbowman wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2026 23:09:07 -0400, c186282 wrote:
> 
>>     IF an Iranian nuke goes off anywhere near Israel then Iran is just
>>     literal TOAST.
> 
> Again scale comes into play. Iran is 636,372 sq mi. 
   Iran is LARGE - but most of the pop/money/power
   is concentrated in like a dozen cities.

   Yea, Israel COULD nuke 'em mostly out of
   existence.

   The Rule - if attacked with nukes you DO have
   the total right to RESPOND with nukes. MAD.

   We MAY be getting there - soon.

   The Ukraine war is 'civilized' by comparison.
   Nobody is shooting nukes around. Note Ukraine
   DID mention that while it gave back all the
   USSR nukes it STILL has a fair stockpile of
   plutonium. Russia KNOWS this. Keeps everything
   at the 'conventional' level.

   But Iran is run by FANATICS.

   Israel also has its share of fanatics.

   NOT great.

   I've long thought the nukewar would be between
   India and Pakistan. Maybe wrong ...

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