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Re: What's the best linux distro?

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  Re: What's the best linux distro? F Russell <fr@random.info> - 2021-08-23 23:04 +0000
    Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-24 03:13 +0200
      Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-24 14:19 +0100
        Re: What's the best linux distro? Jimmy Johnson <Jimmy@disposable.invalid> - 2021-08-25 20:47 -0700
          Re: What's the best linux distro? Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2021-08-26 04:05 +0000
            Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 09:48 +0100
          Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 09:46 +0100
            Re: What's the best linux distro? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2021-08-26 12:11 +0000
              Re: What's the best linux distro? Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2021-08-26 13:21 +0000
                Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 16:53 +0100
              Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 16:51 +0100
    Re: What's the best linux distro? F Russell <fr@random.info> - 2021-08-24 12:53 +0000
      Re: What's the best linux distro? SixOverFive <hae274b.net> - 2021-08-25 00:41 -0400
        Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 10:18 +0100
        Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-25 11:56 +0200
          Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 12:10 +0100
            Re: X-post and follow-Up (Was: What's the best linux distro?) "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-26 11:33 +0200
              Re: X-post and follow-Up Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 06:52 -0400
                Re: X-post and follow-Up "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-29 14:02 +0200
          Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 13:10 +0100
            Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-25 14:36 +0200
              Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-25 08:53 -0400
                Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-25 15:13 +0200
                Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 14:31 +0100
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-25 12:14 -0400
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-25 20:13 +0200
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-26 20:57 +0000
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-27 01:38 +0200
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-27 02:04 +0100
                        Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-27 09:29 +0200
                        Re: What's the best linux distro? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2021-08-27 17:01 +0200
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 07:26 -0400
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-29 14:27 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-26 20:53 +0000
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-27 02:01 +0100
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-25 08:23 -0700
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-25 12:21 -0400
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-27 01:54 +0200
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-28 12:51 +0000
                        Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-28 11:40 -0400
                          Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-28 17:39 +0000
                            Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-28 14:25 -0400
                          Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-28 23:08 +0200
                            Re: What's the best linux distro? Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2021-08-29 00:10 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 08:09 -0400
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-29 14:43 +0200
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 07:11 -0400
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-29 14:29 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2021-08-29 16:09 +0200
              Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 14:27 +0100
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> - 2021-08-25 15:38 +0000
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 18:44 +0100
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-25 20:15 +0200
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> - 2021-08-26 05:19 +0000
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-26 11:40 +0200
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-25 12:07 -0400
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-25 12:10 -0400
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-26 21:03 +0000
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2021-08-27 17:04 +0200
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-28 13:12 +0000
                        Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-28 11:39 -0400
                          Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-29 11:05 +0100
                            Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-29 07:06 -0400
                              Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-29 12:50 +0100
                                Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-29 08:07 -0400
                                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-29 13:23 +0100
                                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-29 11:38 -0400
                                      Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-29 22:45 +0100
                                        Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-30 01:10 +0200
                                        Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-29 20:18 -0400
                                          Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-30 08:23 +0100
                                            Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-30 08:02 -0400
                                              Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-30 14:26 +0100
                                              Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 10:13 +0100
                                                Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 10:38 +0100
                                                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2021-08-31 20:39 +0000
                                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-29 12:59 +0000
                                    Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-29 15:43 +0200
                                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-29 11:41 -0400
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 09:09 +0100
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 09:49 +0100
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-26 11:31 +0200
              Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 16:47 +0100
                Re: What's the best linux distro? jjb <invalid@invalid.nl> - 2021-08-25 18:17 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-25 10:39 -0700
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2021-08-25 22:14 +0200
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 08:19 -0400
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-25 12:23 -0400
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-25 18:14 +0100
                Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-25 20:19 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 07:32 -0400
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-29 14:36 +0200
                      Re: What's the best linux distro? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-29 15:16 +0100
          Re: What's the best linux distro? Jimmy Johnson <Jimmy@disposable.invalid> - 2021-08-25 21:02 -0700
            Re: What's the best linux distro? Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com> - 2021-08-26 05:35 +0000
              Re: What's the best linux distro? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-08-26 11:28 +0200
            Re: What's the best linux distro? Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2021-08-26 18:10 +0200
              Re: What's the best linux distro? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-08-26 13:12 -0400
                Re: What's the best linux distro? Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2021-08-26 19:41 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2021-08-27 11:02 +0200
              Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 07:42 -0400
                Re: What's the best linux distro? "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2021-08-29 15:26 +0200
                  Re: What's the best linux distro? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-29 14:57 +0100
                    Re: What's the best linux distro? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-29 10:47 -0400
            Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-26 21:12 +0000
          Re: What's the best linux distro? Branimir Maksimovic <branimir.maksimovic@gmail.com> - 2021-08-31 21:36 +0000
        Re: What's the best linux distro? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-08-26 20:41 +0000
    Re: What's the best linux distro? SixOverFive <hae274b.net> - 2021-08-25 00:12 -0400

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#32826

On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> Systemd is evil.
> 
> Well on that I do agree.
> 
> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency, and 
> not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already

Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no 
maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a 
replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there was 
nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.

To me, it works very well, I have no complains.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#32827

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:

> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>> Systemd is evil.
>> Well on that I do agree.
>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>
> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a 
> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>
> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.

Systemd is unarguably faster.
The user interface is way simpler than initd.
The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
never possible with initd.  (Like actually being able to access a
description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
bashing.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#32828

On 25/08/2021 14.53, Dan Espen wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
> 
>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>
>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>
>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
> 
> Systemd is unarguably faster.
> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
> never possible with initd.  (Like actually being able to access a
> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
> bashing.
> 

Or easily modifying a distribution provided service file in a manner 
that it survives updates.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#32830

On 25/08/2021 13:53, Dan Espen wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
> 
>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>
>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>
>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
> 
> Systemd is unarguably faster.

who needs to boot a server faster? when you only take it doiwn every few 
months and its down for at least a few hours while you mess aroujnd with it.

> The user interface is way simpler than initd.

Rubbish

> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
> never possible with initd.  (Like actually being able to access a
> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)

If you dont know what services are running on a machine or what they do, 
you shouldn't be messing with them in the first place.

> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
> bashing.
> 
No, it's people who have found stuff that worked perfectly well was 
broken by systemd, and took ages to fix.




-- 
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over 
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that 
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

  Frédéric Bastiat

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#32836

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> On 25/08/2021 13:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>> 
>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>
>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>
>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
>
> who needs to boot a server faster? when you only take it doiwn every
> few months and its down for at least a few hours while you mess
> aroujnd with it.

Oh here we go down that blind alley.
I said it was faster, whether you appreciate it or not is irrelevant.

>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
>
> Rubbish

Oh really?  Do you know anything about system design?
One file type, no forest of links, no utility to reconstruct the soft
link forest, a bunch of intuitive keywords in one file type.

>> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
>> never possible with initd.  (Like actually being able to access a
>> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
>
> If you dont know what services are running on a machine or what they
> do, you shouldn't be messing with them in the first place.

That's the best you can come up with?  You've never encountered a
service you are not running that you think you might need to run.
Pathetic.

>> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
>> bashing.
>> 
> No, it's people who have found stuff that worked perfectly well was
> broken by systemd, and took ages to fix.

So sad.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#32845

On 25/08/2021 15.31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 25/08/2021 13:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>
>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>
>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>>
>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
> 
> who needs to boot a server faster? when you only take it doiwn every few 
> months and its down for at least a few hours while you mess aroujnd with 
> it.

Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.

> 
>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
> 
> Rubbish

In your opinion.



-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#32896

Le 25-08-2021, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>
> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.

In fact, I'd say it's even more important for the servers. Because when
you need to restart your server, you know you have a lot of people
waiting for it to be available again.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#32899

On 26/08/2021 22.57, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 25-08-2021, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>
>> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.
> 
> In fact, I'd say it's even more important for the servers. Because when
> you need to restart your server, you know you have a lot of people
> waiting for it to be available again.

True.

Equally important is not having to adjust everything on a new server to
have it working, but just install and go. More time available for the
real issues.

-- 
Cheers,
       Carlos E.R.

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#32905

On 26/08/2021 21:57, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 25-08-2021, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>
>> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.
> 
> In fact, I'd say it's even more important for the servers. Because when
> you need to restart your server, you know you have a lot of people
> waiting for it to be available again.
> 
Since its already been down for 4 hours for upgrades, what difference 
does 5 minutes make?

I mean all this is so ACADEMIC. So ArtStudent™ hand wavy.

IME the only thing that delays booting is the necessity of fsking the 
file system and I dint think systemd will improve that.
-- 
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead 
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

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#32919

On 27/08/2021 03.04, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 26/08/2021 21:57, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 25-08-2021, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.
>>
>> In fact, I'd say it's even more important for the servers. Because when
>> you need to restart your server, you know you have a lot of people
>> waiting for it to be available again.
>>
> Since its already been down for 4 hours for upgrades, what difference
> does 5 minutes make?

You get charged per second of downtime.

> 
> I mean all this is so ACADEMIC. So ArtStudent™ hand wavy.
> 
> IME the only thing that delays booting is the necessity of fsking the
> file system and I dint think systemd will improve that.

Not the only thing...

-- 
Cheers,
       Carlos E.R.

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#32922

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 26/08/2021 21:57, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 25-08-2021, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.
>> 
>> In fact, I'd say it's even more important for the servers. Because when
>> you need to restart your server, you know you have a lot of people
>> waiting for it to be available again.
>> 
>Since its already been down for 4 hours for upgrades, what difference 
>does 5 minutes make?

Wrong argumentation. With the right distribution, an upgrade doesn't
take four hours, and the services are not down the entire time.

But, if my server takes 5 minutes for its POST, it doesn't matter when
the OS boot takes. On the other hand, when I fire up containers that
only live for a minute, every second of bootup time counts.

I don't need to like systemd to see its advantages, hence I'm using
it. The pain to migrate to one of the systemd-less distributions is
way higher and the support surely worse.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber         |   " Questions are the         | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  |     Beginning of Wisdom "     | 
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

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#32964

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:

> On 25/08/2021 15.31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 25/08/2021 13:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>>
>>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>>
>>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>>>
>>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
>> who needs to boot a server faster? when you only take it doiwn every
>> few months and its down for at least a few hours while you mess
>> aroujnd with it.
>
> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.
>

Especially the servers sometimes. If something is down, or if load
skyrockets and it needs to autoscale, I very much want servers that boot
fast.

>> 
>>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
>> Rubbish
>
> In your opinion.

SysV init can be simple to use, for simple tasks. However, when you need
something complex, it gets rather baroque, and no two people set it up
the same way. That makes for a whole lot of complexity for a typical
computer.

Systemd involves some more complex upfront design (by the systemd
developers), but in operation it is simple and consistent. It remains
simple and consistent even when your needs are more complex.

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#32974

On 29/08/2021 13.26, Bud Frede wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>> On 25/08/2021 15.31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 13:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>>>>
>>>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
>>> who needs to boot a server faster? when you only take it doiwn every
>>> few months and its down for at least a few hours while you mess
>>> aroujnd with it.
>>
>> Me. I want booting my machines faster. Even the servers.
>>
> 
> Especially the servers sometimes. If something is down, or if load
> skyrockets and it needs to autoscale, I very much want servers that boot
> fast.
> 
>>>
>>>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
>>> Rubbish
>>
>> In your opinion.
> 
> SysV init can be simple to use, for simple tasks. However, when you need
> something complex, it gets rather baroque, and no two people set it up
> the same way. That makes for a whole lot of complexity for a typical
> computer.
> 
> Systemd involves some more complex upfront design (by the systemd
> developers), but in operation it is simple and consistent. It remains
> simple and consistent even when your needs are more complex.
> 

That's it, absolutely.

-- 
Cheers,
       Carlos E.R.

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#32895

Le 25-08-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>
> If you dont know what services are running on a machine or what they do, 
> you shouldn't be messing with them in the first place.

OK, you don't know what you are talking about. There are legitimate
criticisms against systemd. This is not one of them. By design it's way
easier to know what services are running.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#32904

On 26/08/2021 21:53, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 25-08-2021, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>>
>> If you dont know what services are running on a machine or what they do,
>> you shouldn't be messing with them in the first place.
> 
> OK, you don't know what you are talking about. There are legitimate
> criticisms against systemd. This is not one of them. By design it's way
> easier to know what services are running.
> 
It's a shame you cant tell a criticism from a refutation of a claimed 
advantage


-- 
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead 
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

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#32831

On 8/25/21 05:53, Dan Espen wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
> 
>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>
>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>
>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
> 
> Systemd is unarguably faster.
> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
> never possible with initd.  (Like actually being able to access a
> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
> bashing.

	Well certainly I suffer from vast areas of ignorance but GNU/Linux 
without systemd was/is faster and is/was more reliable
than when I used  systemd on Mageia 3.1.  I started with Mandriva
2006.  Before that I used Amiga computers from Commodore.

	Systemd may be handy for people who must maintain a lot of
machines as in an Enterprise situation but for me on my laptops
other solutions are available.

PCLinuxOS 64 is my present choice, MX Linux is quite good, Devuan
is Debian without systemd, AntiX can be run without systemd and if
you have really old systems perhaps 4M Linux, or Slack by
Puppy drawing on the vast repositories of Slackware.

	One simple job to start the computer but others to kick
off each service.

bliss - 'Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.' After all 
here I am...

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#32838

Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> writes:

> On 8/25/21 05:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>> 
>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>
>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>
>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
>> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
>> never possible with initd.  (Like actually being able to access a
>> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
>> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
>> bashing.
>
> 	Well certainly I suffer from vast areas of ignorance but
> 	GNU/Linux without systemd was/is faster and is/was more
> 	reliable

There is nothing about the design of systemd that would make your
services run any different than they did before systemd, and there is no
doubt that startup and shutdown are faster with systemd.  So I reject
your claim of slower.

There are facets of the systemd design that make it more reliable than
an init system that only covers startup and shutdown.  If systemd had
teething problems, those are all behind us now.

> than when I used  systemd on Mageia 3.1.  I started with Mandriva
> 2006.  Before that I used Amiga computers from Commodore.

An appeal to expertise?  Back in the 90s I was using Solaris at home.
Somewhere in the 00s I transitioned to Linux, Mandriva was my first at
home install.

I believe I was on Fedora when systemd was introduced.  I did an
upgrade, not an install.  I was running for a few days before I became
aware of the new init system.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#32900

On 25/08/2021 18.21, Dan Espen wrote:
> Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>> On 8/25/21 05:53, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
>>>> On 25/08/2021 14.10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 25/08/2021 10:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> Systemd is evil.
>>>>> Well on that I do agree.
>>>>> Goes completely against the principles of simplicity, transparency,
>>>>> and not doing stuff that was working perfectly well already
>>>>
>>>> Well, the later is arguable. Many were not happy, and initd had no
>>>> maintenance or hopes of improvements, so they were looking for a
>>>> replacement. It could have been systemd or something else, but there
>>>> was nothing else suitable. So many distributions changed.
>>>>
>>>> To me, it works very well, I have no complains.
>>> Systemd is unarguably faster.
>>> The user interface is way simpler than initd.
>>> The design of systemd makes a whole bunch of things possible that were
>>> never possible with initd.  (Like actually being able to access a
>>> description of each service or getting a list of all services.)
>>> IMO it's a bunch of know-nothings that continue with this systemd
>>> bashing.
>>
>> 	Well certainly I suffer from vast areas of ignorance but
>> 	GNU/Linux without systemd was/is faster and is/was more
>> 	reliable
> 
> There is nothing about the design of systemd that would make your
> services run any different than they did before systemd, and there is no
> doubt that startup and shutdown are faster with systemd.  So I reject
> your claim of slower.

Unless, as is often the case, the distribution also upgraded everything,
services and apps and libraries, with more features. Every upgrade of
software bring better features, more code, bigger and slower. Not
because of switching to systemd, but because that's the nature of
software in real life.

Besides that, systemd is faster.


-- 
Cheers,
       Carlos E.R.

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#32938

Le 26-08-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
> On 25/08/2021 18.21, Dan Espen wrote:
>> 
>> There is nothing about the design of systemd that would make your
>> services run any different than they did before systemd, and there is no
>> doubt that startup and shutdown are faster with systemd.  So I reject
>> your claim of slower.
>
> Unless, as is often the case, the distribution also upgraded everything,
> services and apps and libraries, with more features. Every upgrade of
> software bring better features, more code, bigger and slower. Not
> because of switching to systemd, but because that's the nature of
> software in real life.

Exactly. And you forget everything the user don't need and is not aware
of. But which are there in case he would need them. It's impressive the
number of packages installed on a popular distro just to avoid the
end-user the need to know what he needs or not.

> Besides that, systemd is faster.

Don't know about it. At home it's fast and doesn't use lot of
ressources. But I'm not able to compare with SysV.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#32941

Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:

> Le 26-08-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
>> Besides that, systemd is faster.
>
> Don't know about it. At home it's fast and doesn't use lot of
> ressources. But I'm not able to compare with SysV.

You should know it's faster everywhere based on it's design.
It starts/stops services in parallel instead of serially.
That's ALWAYS going to be faster.

-- 
Dan Espen

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