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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #33009 > unrolled thread

Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC?

Started byant@zimage.comANT (Ant)
First post2021-08-30 18:22 -0500
Last post2021-09-16 08:02 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 103 — 17 participants

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Contents

  Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2021-08-30 18:22 -0500
    Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2021-08-31 00:14 +0000
    Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-30 17:57 -0700
    Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 04:39 +0100
      Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2021-08-31 15:19 +0200
        Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 14:34 +0100
          Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2021-08-31 16:16 +0200
            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 15:47 +0100
              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2021-08-31 18:54 +0200
                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 17:59 +0100
                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-31 11:52 -0700
                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-01 04:21 +0000
    Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-31 01:07 -0400
      Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2021-08-31 11:01 +0200
        Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-31 11:01 -0400
          Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2021-09-01 11:07 +0200
            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-01 07:55 -0400
              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-01 13:10 +0100
                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-01 23:58 -0400
                  Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-09-02 13:04 +0200
                    Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-03 01:56 -0400
                      Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2021-09-03 08:44 +0200
                        Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-09-03 11:22 +0200
                          Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-04 00:31 -0400
                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2021-09-04 10:56 +0200
                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2021-09-04 11:44 +0200
                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-09-04 08:04 -0700
                              OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Rinaldi <rm@nunya.inv> - 2021-09-04 10:28 -0500
                                Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-09-04 08:41 -0700
                                  Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-04 18:33 +0100
                                  Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 00:53 -0400
                                    Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2021-09-05 08:57 +0200
                                      Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-05 12:12 -0400
                                        Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 20:01 -0400
                                Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-09-04 08:42 -0700
                                Re: OT Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-09-04 08:45 -0700
                              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-04 18:32 +0100
                        Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-03 19:51 -0400
                        Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-03 23:48 -0400
                          Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-04 08:44 +0100
                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 00:07 -0400
                              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 08:16 +0100
                                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 09:36 +0100
                                  Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 12:50 +0100
                                  Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-09-05 09:33 -0400
                          Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-09-04 11:22 +0200
                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2021-09-04 11:46 +0200
                          Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-09-04 17:47 +0000
                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 09:35 +0100
                              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 19:34 -0400
                                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-09-06 02:14 +0200
                                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-06 08:43 +0100
                                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-06 08:45 +0100
                                  Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-07 01:54 -0400
                                    Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-07 08:44 +0100
                                      Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-08 01:36 -0400
                                        Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-08 07:46 +0100
                                          Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-09 01:53 -0400
                                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-09 07:41 +0100
                                              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-10 01:52 -0400
                                        Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-08 08:46 +0100
                                          Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-08 10:57 +0100
                                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-08 12:12 +0100
                                              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-08 13:06 +0100
                                                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-08 13:29 +0100
                                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2021-09-08 14:17 +0300
                                          Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-09 02:04 -0400
                                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-09 07:46 +0100
                                              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-10 02:51 -0400
                                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-10 09:49 +0100
                                          Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-11 02:03 -0400
                                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-11 07:19 +0100
                                            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-11 08:32 +0100
                                              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-12 00:17 -0400
                                                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-12 09:09 +0100
                                                  Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-12 23:43 -0400
                                                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-12 11:33 +0100
                              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2021-09-06 11:08 +0300
                                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-06 09:24 +0100
                                  Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2021-09-06 12:38 +0300
                                    Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-06 12:21 +0100
                                      Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SevenOverSix <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-07 02:20 -0400
                                  Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-06 11:39 +0100
                                    Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-06 12:22 +0100
                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2021-09-02 09:29 +0200
                  Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-02 09:48 +0100
            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-01 23:32 -0400
              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2021-09-02 09:30 +0200
                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-03 00:04 -0400
              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-09-04 17:58 +0000
                Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 00:22 -0400
    Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2021-08-31 10:59 +0200
      Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 10:46 +0100
        Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 10:50 +0100
          Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 10:57 +0100
        Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2021-09-01 11:09 +0200
          Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-01 10:42 +0100
            Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2021-09-01 13:47 +0200
              Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-09-04 18:09 +0000
    Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-31 06:04 -0400
      Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 11:42 +0100
    Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> - 2021-09-14 22:42 -0400
      Re: Is Debian still good for GUI stuff in an over 12 yrs. old PC? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-16 08:02 +0000

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#33164

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2021-09-06 12:21 +0100
Message-ID<sh4tkf$922$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33160
On 06/09/2021 10:38, Tauno Voipio wrote:
> In practice the speed difference in not
> noticeable.
That depends entirely on what you are doing!



-- 
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale 
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

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#33172

FromSevenOverSix <hae274c.net>
Date2021-09-07 02:20 -0400
Message-ID<K6ydndkyquIgmar8nZ2dnUU7-RfNnZ2d@earthlink.com>
In reply to#33164
On 9/6/21 7:21 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/09/2021 10:38, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>> In practice the speed difference in not
>> noticeable.
> That depends entirely on what you are doing!

   And THAT "depends".

   Debian is basically "state of the art", it's
   a damned good distro - the mother of SO many
   others. You can enlarge, or shrink, it over
   a VERY wide range. Slitaz/Tiny is probably the
   lower end, a big fat KDE environment being
   the opposite end.

   And you CAN skip all GUIs too ... though that
   is pretty retro.

   The trick is to scale your environment to the
   hardware/task at hand.

   If you have a 386 with literally megabytes of
   memory - go SMALL, Very Very small. An old
   Packard-Bell intended for Win95/98 comes to
   mind. 4mb of RAM was considered "overkill"  :-)

   Did deal with a guy running an old payroll app
   on Win95 ... 4mb really DID speed it up.

   Oh, the biz owner was nefarious for going to
   GARAGE SALES and buying old old PCs. It was
   my job to make them work with much newer and
   more bulky software. Oh well, he PAID. He'd
   call me, sometimes late at night ... but I
   was younger then.

   And you wonder why my "systems philosophy" is
   so weird/brutal. THIS is the kind of crap I've
   had to deal with  :-)

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#33162

FromRichard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2021-09-06 11:39 +0100
Message-ID<87wnnu7zug.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
In reply to#33158
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 06/09/2021 09:08, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>> It is a method called 'tail-ending' in compilers. Any reasonably recent
>> version of the GNU GCC is able to do it without programmer assistance,
>> except selecting high enough optimization levele when compiling.

As far as I can see from a superficial test, gcc 10.2.1 will perform
this optimization within a function but not across multiple functions.
The same goes for Clang 11.0.1.

> I am sure that optimizing for size would use something like that. It
> is fractionally *slower*

On a simple CPU, yes.

On a modern general-purpose CPU I’d expect that it would often lead to a
net performance improvement due to improved cache usage, outside of
uninteresting cases where the shared tail only executes once.

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#33165

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2021-09-06 12:22 +0100
Message-ID<sh4tmf$922$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33162
On 06/09/2021 11:39, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> On 06/09/2021 09:08, Tauno Voipio wrote:
>>> It is a method called 'tail-ending' in compilers. Any reasonably recent
>>> version of the GNU GCC is able to do it without programmer assistance,
>>> except selecting high enough optimization levele when compiling.
> 
> As far as I can see from a superficial test, gcc 10.2.1 will perform
> this optimization within a function but not across multiple functions.
> The same goes for Clang 11.0.1.
> 
>> I am sure that optimizing for size would use something like that. It
>> is fractionally *slower*
> 
> On a simple CPU, yes.
> 
> On a modern general-purpose CPU I’d expect that it would often lead to a
> net performance improvement due to improved cache usage, outside of
> uninteresting cases where the shared tail only executes once.
> 
That's an interesting point: I think you are spot on. I wasn't thinking 
about caches at all.

-- 
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale 
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

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#33064

FromMarc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us>
Date2021-09-02 09:29 +0200
Message-ID<sgpuh5$67m$1@news1.tnib.de>
In reply to#33055
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Synaptic is simply a GUI face on aptitude....

If that was the case, it would depend on aptitude. It doesn't.

Things would be so easy if you had a remote clue about what you're
talking about.

-- 
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber         |   " Questions are the         | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  |     Beginning of Wisdom "     | 
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#33066

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2021-09-02 09:48 +0100
Message-ID<sgq34p$bhr$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33064
On 02/09/2021 08:29, Marc Haber wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Synaptic is simply a GUI face on aptitude....
> 
> If that was the case, it would depend on aptitude. It doesn't.
> 
> Things would be so easy if you had a remote clue about what you're
> talking about.
> 

Why having a discussion
about technical aspects when it's so easy to go personal.

-- 
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

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#33058

FromSixOverFive <hae274c.net>
Date2021-09-01 23:32 -0400
Message-ID<muCdnW3pF_JU2K38nZ2dnUU7-e_NnZ2d@earthlink.com>
In reply to#33049
On 9/1/21 5:07 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
> SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>> On 08/31/2021 05:01 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
>>> SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>>> Learn the apt-get --no-include-recommends
>>>> tricks though
>>>
>>> |[2/5046]mh@drop:~ $ cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/70RecommendsSuggests
>>> |APT {
>>> |  Install-Recommends "false";
>>> |  Install-Suggests "false";
>>> |};
>>> |
>>> |[3/5047]mh@drop:~ $
>>>
>>> Greetings
>>> Marc
>>>
>>
>>    That'll work - but usually I like to decide on
>>    a case-by-case basis.
> 
> I think you can override the settings if you want recommends. ALso,
> apt says which recommended / suggested package it doesn install.
> 
> I find it dangerous to have the "give me the full thing" as default,
> it's too easy to omit the option once.
> 
> Also debfoster does a pretty good job in keeping the system small.
> 
>> However someone using VERY
>>    limited old hardware might want to set those as
>>    defaults.
> 
> I am a professional server jockey and all my Debian installs have
> these set. Especially in containerized environments you want to be as
> small as possible.

   For containers, I agree.

   But I don't use containers/VMs on servers. Had too many
   negative experiences. The hardware is cheap enough these
   days that you can dedicate a box-per-task-or-two. Now
   I mostly do small/medium outfits - LARGE outfits might
   have a different buzz.

> 
>>    In the Debiverse, Synaptic is your best friend.
> 
> I disagree even for desktop machines.

   Well, it's the FIRST thing I install on a new install.
   Everything Command-Line is for the 80s - or those
   looking for job security  :-)

   So we'll have to agree to disagree.

   I can envision a Synaptic2 ... there ARE some features
   that could/should be included nowadays.

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#33065

FromMarc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us>
Date2021-09-02 09:30 +0200
Message-ID<sgpuji$76u$1@news1.tnib.de>
In reply to#33058
SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>So we'll have to agree to disagree.

We have. And I'm actually happy about it. Why having a discussion
about technical aspects when it's so easy to go personal.

-- 
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber         |   " Questions are the         | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  |     Beginning of Wisdom "     | 
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#33071

FromSixOverFive <hae274c.net>
Date2021-09-03 00:04 -0400
Message-ID<eMmdnWeO3PtdA6z8nZ2dnUU7-LvNnZ2d@earthlink.com>
In reply to#33065
On 9/2/21 3:30 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
> SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>> So we'll have to agree to disagree.
> 
> We have. And I'm actually happy about it. Why having a discussion
> about technical aspects when it's so easy to go personal.

   I don't think you're crazy/evil for YOUR vision
   of what servers etc are "supposed to be like" ...
   my vision is just different, MAYBE a tad more
   "modern". I am not afraid of GUIs and am NOT
   concerned they'll "overload" an i10 dodecacore
   somehow.

   Fortunately, the LinuVerse can deliver BOTH our
   visions with minimal problems.

   I (horrors!) like to administer using V*N*C even !
   No, NOT on traditional ports - indeed I've taken
   to using a funky variant of 'port knocking' on
   the supervisory server and even then using SSH
   tunnels. The enabler port hosts a little service
   and you have to send it something that meets a
   certain mathematical criteria. It never signals
   success or not, it just does what it does when
   the code is right.

   And no, NEVER those handy all-purpose remote
   server management apps like, well, read the
   news ............ big fat bullseye targets ...

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#33109

FromStéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date2021-09-04 17:58 +0000
Message-ID<slrnsj7cuv.nus.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain>
In reply to#33058
Le 02-09-2021, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> a écrit :
>
>    Well, it's the FIRST thing I install on a new install.
>    Everything Command-Line is for the 80s - or those
>    looking for job security  :-)

Certainly not. The CLI is the most efficient way to achieve a lot of
things. By design, you can script and automate a lot of task more easily
than with a GUI.

>    So we'll have to agree to disagree.

Yes, and on a lot of subjects.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#33112

FromSixOverFive <hae274c.net>
Date2021-09-05 00:22 -0400
Message-ID<OqWdnfC4zpC-26n8nZ2dnUU7-dfNnZ2d@earthlink.com>
In reply to#33109
On 9/4/21 1:58 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 02-09-2021, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> a écrit :
>>
>>     Well, it's the FIRST thing I install on a new install.
>>     Everything Command-Line is for the 80s - or those
>>     looking for job security  :-)
> 
> Certainly not. The CLI is the most efficient way to achieve a lot of
> things. By design, you can script and automate a lot of task more easily
> than with a GUI.
> 
>>     So we'll have to agree to disagree.
> 
> Yes, and on a lot of subjects.
> 

   CLI does have its place. GUIs cannot always accomodate
   the level of detail needed to do tricky stuff.

   But here, mostly, I was talking about EDITORS. The ONLY
   CLI editor I regularly use is nano. The rest can just be
   flushed into the cesspool of history IMHO.

   A little example - a laptop I was using had a GUI to set
   the background, hardware, LED brightness level (not the
   same as the "software" level which results in a washed-out
   appearance). Thing is, the setting would not "take". Always
   rebooted to a super-dim screen. Dunno WHERE this 'default'
   was kicking in - it's deep deep.

   So ... "sudo nano /etc/rc.local" and add
   "echo 150 > /sys/class/backlight/amdgpu_bl0/brightness"
   and THAT bit of brute-force FIXES it.

   Took a LOT of looking to find that bit of obscura too.
   99 other dead ends and/or SUPER-complex approaches.

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#33018

FromMarc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us>
Date2021-08-31 10:59 +0200
Message-ID<sgkr1e$f8l$1@news1.tnib.de>
In reply to#33009
[Please don't crosspost this wildly in the future, and at least set a
Followup-To: header]

ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>Intel Core 2 Q8200 (quad-core; default clock speeds; Socket 775 LGA;
>Yorkfield) with a Scythe Andy Master 120mm CPU cooler (SCASM-1000),
>Antec Sonata Proto mid tower ATX case, MSI P43 NEO3-F (MSI-7514)
>motherboard (latest BIOS), two 1 GB of Crucial RAM (Samsung DDR2 800
>(PC2-6400; 400 MHz),EVGA NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT PCIE video card (512 MB
>of VRAM),

Do yourself the favor and upgrade your RAM to 8 GB, if the board
allows that. Be careful not to exceed the remaining value of the
entire machine doing so. And expect that the nVidia driver will not
support the old graphics card any more.

Consider ditching the entire machine and replacing it with a more
recent, probably used, box.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber         |   " Questions are the         | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  |     Beginning of Wisdom "     | 
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

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#33022

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2021-08-31 10:46 +0100
Message-ID<sgktpo$578$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33018
On 31/08/2021 09:59, Marc Haber wrote:

 >And expect that the nVidia driver will not
 >support the old graphics card any more.

> Consider ditching the entire machine and replacing it with a more
> recent, probably used, box.


Nvidia support very old legacy hardware with up to date linux drivers.

295.49  is the driver that will be needed. It is likely that at least 
Ubuntu/Mint will have that in the repository and suggest its 
installation at install time


4GB RAM is enough for a basic modern distro.


-- 
For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the 
very definition of slavery.

Jonathan Swift

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#33023

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2021-08-31 10:50 +0100
Message-ID<sgku1s$578$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33022
On 31/08/2021 10:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 31/08/2021 09:59, Marc Haber wrote:
> 
>  >And expect that the nVidia driver will not
>  >support the old graphics card any more.
> 
>> Consider ditching the entire machine and replacing it with a more
>> recent, probably used, box.
> 
> 
> Nvidia support very old legacy hardware with up to date linux drivers.
> 
> 295.49  is the driver that will be needed. It is likely that at least 
> Ubuntu/Mint will have that in the repository and suggest its 
> installation at install time
> 
Sorry - that's semi obsolete 340.108 is the latest one - last updated 2019

I've used that one on a very old laptop, before it died...its OK.

-- 
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

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#33024

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2021-08-31 10:57 +0100
Message-ID<sgkuf5$8i9$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33023
On 31/08/2021 10:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 31/08/2021 10:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 31/08/2021 09:59, Marc Haber wrote:
>>
>>  >And expect that the nVidia driver will not
>>  >support the old graphics card any more.
>>
>>> Consider ditching the entire machine and replacing it with a more
>>> recent, probably used, box.
>>
>>
>> Nvidia support very old legacy hardware with up to date linux drivers.
>>
>> 295.49  is the driver that will be needed. It is likely that at least 
>> Ubuntu/Mint will have that in the repository and suggest its 
>> installation at install time
>>
> Sorry - that's semi obsolete 340.108 is the latest one - last updated 2019
> 
> I've used that one on a very old laptop, before it died...its OK.
> 
It is currently in use on a machine here -part of Linux Mint 20 distro. 
and installed automatically.

But the generic Linux nouveau driver is adequate, if slower

-- 
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, 
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. 
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s 
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of 
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

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#33050

FromMarc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us>
Date2021-09-01 11:09 +0200
Message-ID<sgng0l$btf$1@news1.tnib.de>
In reply to#33022
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Nvidia support very old legacy hardware with up to date linux drivers.

If so, this has changed in the last five years. My last nVidia
graphics card was removed from the machine and replaced with AMD since
the nVidia legacy driver suddenly stopped supporting it.

This has never happened to me before or afterwards with other vendors.
Avoid nVidia at all costs.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber         |   " Questions are the         | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  |     Beginning of Wisdom "     | 
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

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#33051

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2021-09-01 10:42 +0100
Message-ID<sgnhtk$dij$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#33050
On 01/09/2021 10:09, Marc Haber wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Nvidia support very old legacy hardware with up to date linux drivers.
> 
> If so, this has changed in the last five years. My last nVidia
> graphics card was removed from the machine and replaced with AMD since
> the nVidia legacy driver suddenly stopped supporting it.
> 
> This has never happened to me before or afterwards with other vendors.
> Avoid nVidia at all costs.
> 
> Greetings
> Marc
> 
I have never found an Nvidia card that didn't have a driver that worked 
with it, and their Linux support is massively better than any other 
manufacturer

Buy Nvidia whenever possible for Linux.


-- 
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of 
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

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#33052

From"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2021-09-01 13:47 +0200
Message-ID<fs540ixub1.ln2@minas-tirith.valinor>
In reply to#33051
On 01/09/2021 11.42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 01/09/2021 10:09, Marc Haber wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> Nvidia support very old legacy hardware with up to date linux drivers.
>>
>> If so, this has changed in the last five years. My last nVidia
>> graphics card was removed from the machine and replaced with AMD since
>> the nVidia legacy driver suddenly stopped supporting it.
>>
>> This has never happened to me before or afterwards with other vendors.
>> Avoid nVidia at all costs.

> I have never found an Nvidia card that didn't have a driver that worked
> with it, and their Linux support is massively better than any other
> manufacturer
> 
> Buy Nvidia whenever possible for Linux.

I had to do the same as Marc, as my NVidia card stopped being supported
by the proprietary driver, and I changed to AMD too.

Native Linux support for Nvidia cards is limited, there is no 3d, and
limited hardware acceleration (with the open driver).

With AMD, I don't need any proprietary driver to get games running.

So, avoid Nvidia at all costs. Ask (or google) Linus Torvalds what he
thinks of Nvidia.


As to not happening before, yes, it did, with ATI cards long ago. A
decade or two, before it joined with AMD and they opened things.

-- 
Cheers,
       Carlos E.R.

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#33110

FromStéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date2021-09-04 18:09 +0000
Message-ID<slrnsj7djj.nus.sc@scarpet42p.localdomain>
In reply to#33052
Le 01-09-2021, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit :
> On 01/09/2021 11.42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> 
>> Buy Nvidia whenever possible for Linux.

Certainly not.

> I had to do the same as Marc, as my NVidia card stopped being supported
> by the proprietary driver, and I changed to AMD too.
>
> Native Linux support for Nvidia cards is limited, there is no 3d, and
> limited hardware acceleration (with the open driver).
>
> With AMD, I don't need any proprietary driver to get games running.
>
> So, avoid Nvidia at all costs. Ask (or google) Linus Torvalds what he
> thinks of Nvidia.

Agreed. With nvidia, you need the proprietary drivers. An they are not
written as fast as the kernel, so they always lag behind.

> As to not happening before, yes, it did, with ATI cards long ago. A
> decade or two, before it joined with AMD and they opened things.

Yes. With nvidia, you have always had the need to use the proprietary
drivers. But two decades ago it was the only way to benefit of the
advantages of a recent graphic card. So it was a good advice. But not
anymore. Far from it.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

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#33025

FromAndreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net>
Date2021-08-31 06:04 -0400
Message-ID<87a6kyudyy.fsf@usenet.ankman.de>
In reply to#33009
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:22:37 -0500, Ant wrote:
>
> Setup details:
>
> Intel Core 2 Q8200 (quad-core; default clock speeds; Socket 775 LGA;
> Yorkfield) with a Scythe Andy Master 120mm CPU cooler (SCASM-1000),
> Antec Sonata Proto mid tower ATX case, MSI P43 NEO3-F (MSI-7514)
> motherboard (latest BIOS), two 1 GB of Crucial RAM (Samsung DDR2 800
> (PC2-6400; 400 MHz), EVGA NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT PCIE video card (512 MB
> of VRAM), onboard RealTek RTL8168C(P)/8111C(P) PCI-E Gigabit Ethernet
> and Intel High Digital Audio (HDA), 600 watts Sea Sonic S12 PSU, ASUS TV
> Tuner Card 880 NTSC (cx23880), Pioneer CD/DVD Burner Black SATA Model
> DVR-218LBK LabelFlash Support, 3.5" floppy disk drive, Corsair Force
> Series F115 Solid-State Disk (SSD) (115 GB; CSSD-F115GB2-BRKT-A), two
> internal 3.5" SATA hard disk drives (HDDs) [Seagate ST3320620AS 320 GB
> and Western Digital Purple Surveillance 2 TB (6 Gbs; 50 MB cache; WDC
> WD20PURX-64P6ZY0)], Sabrent USB2+memory card reader front panel, and an
> Intel InBusiness 10/100 (82559) NIC (not connected). Running 64-bit
> Debian (Linux; oldoldstable v8/Jessie; kernel v3.16... x86_64) and
> updated 64-bit Windows 7 HPE SP1 (installed on 10/22/2016).

I wish I had your specs. My notebook is "only" nine years old, but with a
Duo-Core CPU. Board has 4 GB RAM, running 32-Bit (PAE) Debian. The Gnome
GUI runs fine - *if* not too many apps are running at the same time.

Also have RealTek chips for network (Ethernet and WIFI) built in.

F'up2 comp.os.linux.misc (I don't read the other groups).
-- 
Andreas

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