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HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

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  HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274b.net> - 2021-08-26 00:34 -0400
    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2021-08-26 05:05 +0000
      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274b.net> - 2021-08-26 20:57 -0400
        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-27 02:12 +0100
          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-31 02:43 -0400
            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-31 09:28 +0100
              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-01 00:13 -0400
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-01 08:52 +0100
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 20:29 -0400
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-06 08:49 +0100
            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-01 04:21 +0000
        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox jak <nospam@please.ty> - 2021-09-09 21:56 +0200
    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 10:03 +0100
      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274b.net> - 2021-08-26 20:36 -0400
        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-27 02:08 +0100
          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-29 01:32 -0400
    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-26 12:26 -0400
      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2021-08-26 19:49 +0300
        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274b.net> - 2021-08-26 21:06 -0400
          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-27 02:58 +0100
            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-27 13:22 -0400
              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-08-27 11:26 -0700
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-28 01:22 -0400
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-28 09:53 +0100
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-29 02:08 -0400
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-28 12:11 -0400
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-29 01:08 -0400
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-29 04:01 -0400
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-29 23:32 -0400
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-08-30 00:51 +0000
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-30 00:06 -0400
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-08-30 14:03 +0000
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-31 01:25 -0400
                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-01 04:21 +0000
                                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-04 01:37 -0400
              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-28 09:40 +0100
                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-28 12:20 -0400
                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Allodoxaphobia <trepidation@example.net> - 2021-08-29 00:55 +0000
                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-31 01:58 -0400
                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-08-31 06:16 -0400
                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-31 23:47 -0400
                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-01 07:52 -0400
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2021-09-02 01:49 +0000
                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> - 2021-09-02 02:39 +0000
                                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-02 01:29 -0400
                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-02 01:10 -0400
                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-02 14:51 -0400
                                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2021-09-02 13:25 -0700
                                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-02 21:24 -0400
                                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-03 03:38 -0400
                                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-03 09:14 +0100
                                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-04 01:01 -0400
                                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-03 12:13 -0400
                                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-04 01:16 -0400
                                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-03 03:19 -0400
                                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-09-03 14:00 +0000
                                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-03 17:44 +0100
                                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-03 14:11 -0400
                                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-03 19:53 +0100
                                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-03 13:59 -0700
                                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-03 20:18 -0400
                                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 02:14 -0400
                                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 09:47 +0100
                                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2021-09-05 10:00 -0500
                                                Re: real programmers, was HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-09-05 22:16 +0000
                                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2021-09-05 12:05 -0400
                                                Re: fine old languages, HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2021-09-05 22:20 +0000
                                                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 23:00 -0400
                                                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-07 20:12 +0000
                                                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2021-09-07 16:27 -0400
                                                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-07 18:30 -0400
                                                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-08 00:17 +0000
                                                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-06 08:50 +0100
                                                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2021-09-06 11:16 -0400
                                                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2021-09-06 15:04 -0400
                                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2021-09-09 02:04 +0000
                                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 01:40 -0400
                                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 09:38 +0100
                                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-05 10:49 +0100
                                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 11:22 +0100
                                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-05 11:31 +0100
                                              OT : Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2021-09-05 11:38 +0100
                                                Re: OT : Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 12:15 +0100
                                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-07 20:12 +0000
                                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-07 22:05 +0100
                                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2021-09-05 10:13 +0000
                                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-05 09:50 -0400
                                          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 20:18 -0400
                                            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2021-09-05 22:38 -0400
                                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2021-09-06 08:53 +0100
                                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-05 12:22 -0400
                                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2021-09-03 19:34 +0000
                                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2021-09-03 19:57 -0400
                              Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2021-09-03 08:27 +0300
                                Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 01:03 -0400
                                  Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2021-09-05 15:25 +0300
                                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-05 14:03 +0100
                                    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2021-09-05 19:27 +0300
                                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-05 20:14 -0400
                                      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-06 00:53 -0400
                                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-06 08:58 +0100
                                        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2021-09-06 12:36 +0300
            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-28 00:44 -0400
      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-26 17:51 +0100
        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-28 01:48 -0400
          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-28 10:16 +0100
            Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-08-29 00:21 -0400
    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> - 2021-08-26 19:53 +0200
      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274b.net> - 2021-08-26 20:33 -0400
    Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-08-27 02:01 +0000
      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2021-08-27 04:40 +0100
      Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-02 00:15 -0400
        Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2021-09-02 06:02 +0000
          Re: HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox SixOverFive <hae274c.net> - 2021-09-03 02:37 -0400

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#33089

On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 13:59:26 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Sep 2021 14:11:42 -0400
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> and that idiot insisted that his students use
>>> cards because that's what they'd be working with in the real world. 
>> 
>> 	Reminds me of the A level computer science course I wished I hadn't
>> taken - the year before it had been all about machine architecture,
>> assembly language programming, data structures and algorithms, fun stuff.
>> But I wasn't allowed to take it that year (because I was taking my O
>> levels) I had to wait and take it the following year and so the course I
>> got to take was COBOL, systems analysis and data validation and not what I
>> had been looking forward to at all. But it was "what we'd be working with
>> in the real world" or so I was told when I moaned about the change.
>> 
>
>COBOL programmers are still in demand, apparently.

They are.  Unfortunately these days to get a job you have to move to
India and be willing to work for an Indian wage.  It's a _good_ Indian
wage mind you, I understand you can live comfortably on it, but it's
below US minimum.

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#33116

On 9/3/21 8:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 13:59:26 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 03 Sep 2021 14:11:42 -0400
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> and that idiot insisted that his students use
>>>> cards because that's what they'd be working with in the real world.
>>>
>>> 	Reminds me of the A level computer science course I wished I hadn't
>>> taken - the year before it had been all about machine architecture,
>>> assembly language programming, data structures and algorithms, fun stuff.
>>> But I wasn't allowed to take it that year (because I was taking my O
>>> levels) I had to wait and take it the following year and so the course I
>>> got to take was COBOL, systems analysis and data validation and not what I
>>> had been looking forward to at all. But it was "what we'd be working with
>>> in the real world" or so I was told when I moaned about the change.
>>>
>>
>> COBOL programmers are still in demand, apparently.
> 
> They are.  Unfortunately these days to get a job you have to move to
> India and be willing to work for an Indian wage.  It's a _good_ Indian
> wage mind you, I understand you can live comfortably on it, but it's
> below US minimum.

   Know a guy who got a job fairly recently at a govt
   op ... one requirement was that he learn COBOL because
   they'd heavily invested in *perfect* COBOL apps way
   back in the day and would not, could not afford to,
   have them re-written in anything else. Important
   customized stuff like payrolls, scheduling ...

   COBOL was a wonder-language back in the day, perfect for
   all kinds of biz apps and (sort of) self-documenting
   because of the quasi-natural-language code. Its "PIC"
   statement was great, could do everything printf() can
   do, help you out with format conversions and forms.
   It was assumed you were using TTY terminals and serial
   ASCII printers. There ARE a couple of COBOL development
   tools for Linux ... one, I think, will even set up
   tinted columns for the older, more anal, COBOL versions
   where you had to put certain codes in EXACTLY the
   right columns. DID make the compilers simpler ...

   And for the science types, FORTRAN. That's ALSO still
   used. There are HUGE libraries of heavy-duty sci-related
   code that NOBODY dares throw away and don't have the
   time/budget to recreate. I remember having to translate
   a FORTRAN stats collection into IBMPC BASICA ... long
   "poke" lines for working the 8087 .... yuk !

   Despite the similar-looking chip number, the 8087 was
   NOT like the 8088 (or most any other microprocessor).
   A very different paradigm. A couple years later the
   compiler-makers all added '87 math libraries and that
   made it all disappear, but BEFORE .... let's say I
   was *thrilled* that Turbo Pascal included an '87
   code switch - right when I had to write something that
   did a lot of graphic transforms.

   I'd suggest "Foley & Van-Dam  Fundamentals Of Interactive
   Computer Graphics" ... STILL worth looking at. That's how
   it really gets done "under the hood".

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#33122

On 05/09/2021 07:14, SixOverFive wrote:
> On 9/3/21 8:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 13:59:26 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 03 Sep 2021 14:11:42 -0400
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> and that idiot insisted that his students use
>>>>> cards because that's what they'd be working with in the real world.
>>>>
>>>>     Reminds me of the A level computer science course I wished I hadn't
>>>> taken - the year before it had been all about machine architecture,
>>>> assembly language programming, data structures and algorithms, fun 
>>>> stuff.
>>>> But I wasn't allowed to take it that year (because I was taking my O
>>>> levels) I had to wait and take it the following year and so the 
>>>> course I
>>>> got to take was COBOL, systems analysis and data validation and not 
>>>> what I
>>>> had been looking forward to at all. But it was "what we'd be working 
>>>> with
>>>> in the real world" or so I was told when I moaned about the change.
>>>>
>>>
>>> COBOL programmers are still in demand, apparently.
>>
>> They are.  Unfortunately these days to get a job you have to move to
>> India and be willing to work for an Indian wage.  It's a _good_ Indian
>> wage mind you, I understand you can live comfortably on it, but it's
>> below US minimum.
> 
>    Know a guy who got a job fairly recently at a govt
>    op ... one requirement was that he learn COBOL because
>    they'd heavily invested in *perfect* COBOL apps way
>    back in the day and would not, could not afford to,
>    have them re-written in anything else. Important
>    customized stuff like payrolls, scheduling ...
> 
>    COBOL was a wonder-language back in the day, perfect for
>    all kinds of biz apps and (sort of) self-documenting
>    because of the quasi-natural-language code. Its "PIC"
>    statement was great, could do everything printf() can
>    do, help you out with format conversions and forms.
>    It was assumed you were using TTY terminals and serial
>    ASCII printers. There ARE a couple of COBOL development
>    tools for Linux ... one, I think, will even set up
>    tinted columns for the older, more anal, COBOL versions
>    where you had to put certain codes in EXACTLY the
>    right columns. DID make the compilers simpler ...
> 


COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It 
enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with 
extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though 
massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was  a 
database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I 
believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data 
structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style 
applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded  by 
a single person



 >    And for the science types, FORTRAN. That's ALSO still
 >    used. There are HUGE libraries of heavy-duty sci-related
 >    code that NOBODY dares throw away and don't have the
 >    time/budget to recreate. I remember having to translate
 >    a FORTRAN stats collection into IBMPC BASICA ... long
 >    "poke" lines for working the 8087 .... yuk !
 >
 >    Despite the similar-looking chip number, the 8087 was
 >    NOT like the 8088 (or most any other microprocessor).
 >    A very different paradigm. A couple years later the
 >    compiler-makers all added '87 math libraries and that
 >    made it all disappear, but BEFORE .... let's say I
 >    was *thrilled* that Turbo Pascal included an '87
 >    code switch - right when I had to write something that
 >    did a lot of graphic transforms.
 >
 >    I'd suggest "Foley & Van-Dam  Fundamentals Of Interactive
 >    Computer Graphics" ... STILL worth looking at. That's how
 >    it really gets done "under the hood".

Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural 
language. There is no need to 'improve' it.

The IT world gota lot worse when computer scientists started writing 
languages. They just couldn't keep it simple. They had to show off.

Hence 'object oriented' rubbish and  'operator overloading' - sheesh the 
worst idea EVER. Making a expresssion symbol dependent on the context in 
which its being used.


-- 
“when things get difficult you just have to lie” ― Jean Claud Jüncker

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#33135

 > COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It 
 > enforces a discipline on coding 

Hah.  You can write bad code in any language, and CObOL gives you
plenty of rope.  ALTER clause anyone?

De

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#33140 — Re: real programmers, was HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

According to Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu>:
> > COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It 
> > enforces a discipline on coding 
>
>Hah.  You can write bad code in any language, and CObOL gives you
>plenty of rope.  ALTER clause anyone?

No worse than the Fortran assigned GOTO.  Sensible programmers stopped using them
as soon as there were other ways to write subroutines, like about 1962.

Academincs sneered at COBOL because it was so wordy and looked like pseudo-English
but it had a lot of good ideas that modern programmers have no idea originated there.

C structures and C++ class data structures are COBOL data (via PL/I
which got them from COBOL and uses essentially the COBOL syntax.) The
COBOL report writer was one of the first uses of coroutines but
unfortunately few COBOL programmers understood it well enough to use
it effectively.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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#33139

On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though
> massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was  a
> database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I
> believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data
> structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style
> applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded  by
> a single person

> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.

Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and Cobol.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

-- 
Change dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org to davidwhodgins@teksavvy.com for
email replies.

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#33141 — Re: fine old languages, HA - Found a CP/M-86 image and C compiler for VBox

According to David W. Hodgins <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org>:
>> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
>> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
>
>Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and Cobol.

It also had a fair amount of Algol mixed in to give it block structure and recursion.

Considering that PL/I was invented by a committee at IBM under intense time pressure
to ship and all-purpose language to use on their all-purpose S/360 mainframes, it's
a remarkably good language.  Sixty years later we can see some of the mistakes like
the wild abandon with which you can mix datatypes, but they got a lot of it right.

-- 
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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#33149

On 9/5/21 12:05 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher 
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
>> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
>> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though
>> massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was  a
>> database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I
>> believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data
>> structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style
>> applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded  by
>> a single person
> 
>> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
>> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
> 
> Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and 
> Cobol.
> 
> Regards, Dave Hodgins
> 


   Found an DR-PL/I compiler image that'll run in
   a DosBox or VirtualBox DOS environment. No MANUAL
   though. There was no such thing as a "standard
   implementation" back then (and hardly NOW) so
   you need an DR-PL/I manual to effectively use
   DR-PL/I.

   PL/I always seemed to be a bit of a "kitchen sink"
   language - you could spot bits of several, even BASIC,
   in there. There were several viable approaches to
   every task ... which ain't terrible.

   Anyway, except for the wordiness and a few annoying quirks,
   COBOL really is a perfectly viable language for commercial
   programming. It does what you need to be done. Certainly
   not "visual" though, however I really don't like Object
   Oriented (still always write basically K&R 'C') so I don't
   miss THAT in COBOL.

   FORTRAN likewise is a perfectly good "sci/math oriented"
   language. STILL widely used, often because SO many great
   and powerful code snippets were writ back in the 60s and
   nobody wants to take the time to RE-write them in anything
   else.

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#33177

On 2021-09-06, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:

>    FORTRAN likewise is a perfectly good "sci/math oriented"
>    language. STILL widely used, often because SO many great
>    and powerful code snippets were writ back in the 60s and
>    nobody wants to take the time to RE-write them in anything
>    else.

As Stan Kelly-Bootle said in _The Devil's DP Dictionary_,

    Yet FORTRAN gallops on, transportable as syphilis,
    fired by a bottomless pit of working subprograms.

BTW has anyone else noticed that Newsguy has died?

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  They don't understand Microsoft
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  has stolen their car and parked
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  a taxi in their driveway.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Mayayana

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#33178

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2021-09-06, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>
>>    FORTRAN likewise is a perfectly good "sci/math oriented"
>>    language. STILL widely used, often because SO many great
>>    and powerful code snippets were writ back in the 60s and
>>    nobody wants to take the time to RE-write them in anything
>>    else.
>
> As Stan Kelly-Bootle said in _The Devil's DP Dictionary_,
>
>     Yet FORTRAN gallops on, transportable as syphilis,
>     fired by a bottomless pit of working subprograms.
>
> BTW has anyone else noticed that Newsguy has died?

https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/ph9lde/newsguycom_whats_happening/

Bankrupt.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#33180

On Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:27:36 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2021-09-06, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>
>>>    FORTRAN likewise is a perfectly good "sci/math oriented"
>>>    language. STILL widely used, often because SO many great
>>>    and powerful code snippets were writ back in the 60s and
>>>    nobody wants to take the time to RE-write them in anything
>>>    else.
>>
>> As Stan Kelly-Bootle said in _The Devil's DP Dictionary_,
>>
>>     Yet FORTRAN gallops on, transportable as syphilis,
>>     fired by a bottomless pit of working subprograms.
>>
>> BTW has anyone else noticed that Newsguy has died?
>
>https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/ph9lde/newsguycom_whats_happening/
>
>Bankrupt.

Shame, but they brought it on themselves.  Too many outages--I finally
changed over to Forteinc.  One of the things that annoyed me about
Newsguy was the periodic shutdowns when the moved their servers to a
new location--remind me of the kids who move to a different apartment
every time the lease is up.

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#33181

On 2021-09-07, J  Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Sep 2021 16:27:36 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> BTW has anyone else noticed that Newsguy has died?
>>
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/ph9lde/newsguycom_whats_happening/
>>
>> Bankrupt.
>
> Shame, but they brought it on themselves.  Too many outages--I finally
> changed over to Forteinc.  One of the things that annoyed me about
> Newsguy was the periodic shutdowns when the moved their servers to a
> new location--remind me of the kids who move to a different apartment
> every time the lease is up.

Too bad.  I've been with them a long time, and never noticed too many
outages.  I dug through my stuff and in the configuration for Pan
(which I used to use to download from the binaries groups but haven't
used for several years) I found the login information for Astraweb.
Fortunately, that site and my account on it are still alive - so I'm back.

-- 
/~\  Charlie Gibbs                  |  They don't understand Microsoft
\ /  <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>      |  has stolen their car and parked
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus     |  a taxi in their driveway.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |    -- Mayayana

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#33154

On 05/09/2021 17:05, David W. Hodgins wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher 
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
>> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
>> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though
>> massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was  a
>> database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I
>> believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data
>> structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style
>> applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded  by
>> a single person
> 
>> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
>> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
> 
> Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and 
> Cobol.
> 
which turned out to be less handy.

ALGOL was also there, and IIRC that morphed into B, BCPL and then C..

> Regards, Dave Hodgins
> 


-- 
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
...than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

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#33168

On Mon, 06 Sep 2021 03:50:59 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 05/09/2021 17:05, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>> On Sun, 05 Sep 2021 04:47:51 -0400, The Natural Philosopher
>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It
>>> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with
>>> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though
>>> massively wordy in source code) What it didn't have back them was  a
>>> database language to run under it. I particularly liked an idea which I
>>> believe it originated - and that is a formal way of specifying the data
>>> structures - tables and fields - in advance. When building SQL style
>>> applications this is massively useful even in a small project coded  by
>>> a single person
>>
>>> Again, FORTRAN is a fully functional efficient compiled procedural
>>> language. There is no need to 'improve' it.
>>
>> Then there was PL/1, which was basically a combination of Fortran and
>> Cobol.
>>
> which turned out to be less handy.

Depends on the task. PL/1 supported 15 dimensional arrays. I don't remember if
Fortran did, but even if it did, PL/1 allowing better variable names to be
used allowing it to still be understandable. If a variable name exceeded 30
characters it took the first and last 15 characters. As long as that was unique,
it worked. COBOL was a max of 3 dimensions and a max of 30 character variable
names.

> ALGOL was also there, and IIRC that morphed into B, BCPL and then C..

I never used ALGOL, B, or BCPL, and only did a tiny bit of work in C.

Regards, Dave Hodgins


-- 
Change dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org to davidwhodgins@teksavvy.com for
email replies.

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#33169

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> ALGOL was also there, and IIRC that morphed into B, BCPL and then C..

Order of invention was CPL, BCPL, B, and C.

There were jokes in the 1980s nad 1990s about the proper name for the next
language in the sequence:  D, or P?

(Note that at least one object-oriented C successor named D was created.)

-- 
Rich Alderson					  news@alderson.users.panix.com
      Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
	  omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
									--Galen

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#33192

In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 05/09/2021 07:14, SixOverFive wrote:
>> On 9/3/21 8:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 13:59:26 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 03 Sep 2021 14:11:42 -0400
>>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> and that idiot insisted that his students use
>>>>>> cards because that's what they'd be working with in the real world.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Reminds me of the A level computer science course I wished I hadn't
>>>>> taken - the year before it had been all about machine architecture,
>>>>> assembly language programming, data structures and algorithms, fun 
>>>>> stuff.
>>>>> But I wasn't allowed to take it that year (because I was taking my O
>>>>> levels) I had to wait and take it the following year and so the 
>>>>> course I
>>>>> got to take was COBOL, systems analysis and data validation and not 
>>>>> what I
>>>>> had been looking forward to at all. But it was "what we'd be working 
>>>>> with
>>>>> in the real world" or so I was told when I moaned about the change.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> COBOL programmers are still in demand, apparently.
>>>
>>> They are.  Unfortunately these days to get a job you have to move to
>>> India and be willing to work for an Indian wage.  It's a _good_ Indian
>>> wage mind you, I understand you can live comfortably on it, but it's
>>> below US minimum.
>> 
>>    Know a guy who got a job fairly recently at a govt
>>    op ... one requirement was that he learn COBOL because
>>    they'd heavily invested in *perfect* COBOL apps way
>>    back in the day and would not, could not afford to,
>>    have them re-written in anything else. Important
>>    customized stuff like payrolls, scheduling ...
>> 
>>    COBOL was a wonder-language back in the day, perfect for
>>    all kinds of biz apps and (sort of) self-documenting
>>    because of the quasi-natural-language code. Its "PIC"
>>    statement was great, could do everything printf() can
>>    do, help you out with format conversions and forms.
>>    It was assumed you were using TTY terminals and serial
>>    ASCII printers. There ARE a couple of COBOL development
>>    tools for Linux ... one, I think, will even set up
>>    tinted columns for the older, more anal, COBOL versions
>>    where you had to put certain codes in EXACTLY the
>>    right columns. DID make the compilers simpler ...
>> 
> 
> 
> COBOL was and is a damned good language for commercial programming: It 
> enforces a discipline on coding and can be used on machines with 
> extremely low RAM. It is extremely *efficient* in execution (though 

ROTFL, certainly *not* the IBM compilers. I had a habit of looking at
the generated code -- it was *horrible*. It was so bad that a company
called Capex wrote an optimizer for it. It greatly improved the
efficiency of the programs.

	Jerry

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#33115

On 9/3/21 2:11 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 03:19:54 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 9/2/21 2:51 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 01:10:09 -0400, SixOverFive <hae274c.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     The IBM "portable" PC was the same idea - medium-suitcase sized,
>>>>     heavy as hell - very orange mini-screen - BUT you could put 640k
>>>>     and an 8087 in that one. Z80s, well, not so much .....
>>>
>>> Didn't IBM came up with that after they saw the tremendous success of the
>>> COMPAQ Portable (I think it was called "COMPAQ" when advertised). I seem
>>> to remember the look came to be when two of the employees were on a lunch
>>> break and put the design on a napkin.
>>
>>    Yep, it was intended as a direct competitor to the
>>    Compaq "portable" ... and, at the time, also Osbourne
>>    and KayPro.
>>
>>    But, like them, it was basically a desktop PC shoved
>>    into a suitcase-sized box with a handle.
>>
>>    I was using the IBM-PPC for agricultural-product
>>    research at the time. Wanted to see how certain
>>    dusts would disperse in the wind across the fields.
>>    Kept track of wind direction/speed and there were
>>    sticky-slides at certain intervals in the bushes.
>>    Got lots of neato pretty-colored wind-drift
>>    charts out of that. From that, "average" dispersal
>>    data could be gleaned, useful for real-world
>>    application charts.
>>
>>>>     OK, OK ... at 300 baud those pictures might load up just
>>>>     a TAD slow ......
>>>
>>> There was a Computer Chronicles episode about computer security in the
>>> mid 80s, where a young hacker demonstrated how to break into a BBS. The
>>> text appeared slow and the hacker mentioned something like "This 300 baud
>>> is slow. I wished we had a 1200 baud modem - that would speed things up a
>>> great deal". *g*
>>
>>    Heh ... yea yea ... I *remember*. Had one of those
>>    'acoustic modems' in the beginning - you literally
>>    squished the phone handpiece into them. My first
>>    1200 baud was Anchor Robotics. VASTLY better. At
>>    300 baud you could actually read the text real-time
>>    as it came in. Oh well, there WERE slower baud rates
>>    before then .........
>>
>>    Somewhere I have a Radio Shack "laptop" ... last
>>    thing Gates actually wrote some code for. This was
>>    WAY before real 'laptops'. They were VERY popular
>>    with the Press - you could fit the acoustic coupler
>>    into any phone in the world and send in your story.
>>    (also had a direct-connect phone line capability -
>>    it could dial tone or pulse AND deal with common
>>    foreign systems). Ran on actual dry/alk BATTERIES
>>    you could buy at any store.
>>
>>> I F'up this into the folklore group. Cannot remember seen you there. You
>>> might enjoy it.
>>
>>    Having LIVED a lot of this "folklore" it doesn't seem
>>    like nostalgic "lore" to me .....
>>
>>    But I did mostly miss the mainframe/mini days ...
>>    only had to use punchcards/paper-tape ONCE in a
>>    college class (which I dropped out of because
>>    the school already had serial terminals that'd
>>    do all that PLUS). The class was years behind
>>    the reality ......
> 
> Some professors are like that.  I remember helping an undergrad find
> the keypunch (I was a computer science grad student and I didn't even
> know the school _had_ a keypunch or card reader until that came up).
> Seems he was taking a programming course from somebody in the
> chemistry department and that idiot insisted that his students use
> cards because that's what they'd be working with in the real world.  I
> ended up having to go dig up an operator.


   PART of the problem is that the computer world was
   evolving SO fast back then. What was State Of The
   Art one year was Obsolete Crap the next.

   So, the prof wasn't necessarily stupid - but perhaps
   just a SINGLE year behind the curve.

   Some of the bigger data centers DID hang on to cards
   and tape for quite awhile after they were officially
   obsolete. They'd invested big $$$ in that equipment
   and were gonna USE it (and had blown their new
   equipment budgets on it). So, the punch-card experience
   wasn't necessarily useless, depending on where the
   student was going to wind up.

   Oh, go shopping ... they DO still sell cartridge-tape
   backup units still - they're up to three or four TB
   now and cost lots of $$$. Clearly there's a market
   for that 60s/70s/80s style tech, certain niches.

   Microprocessors were a New Frontier back then, and a
   certain democratization for invention that hadn't been
   seen since the latter 1800s with Edison/Tesla/Marconi/
   Deforest. You didn't need a 200 IQ and a big development
   team to come up with and make use of really neat
   innovations. Lots that came out of that period is
   STILL in play now. Often, laziness was the Mother
   Of All Invention - "This SUCKS ... how can I make
   it easier/better ?".

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#33121

On 05/09/2021 06:40, SixOverFive wrote:
> Often, laziness was the Mother
>    Of All Invention - "This SUCKS ... how can I make
>    it easier/better ?".

Which was pretty much Linus' attitude, and the rest, is history


-- 
“when things get difficult you just have to lie”

― Jean Claud Jüncker

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#33123

On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:38:56 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 05/09/2021 06:40, SixOverFive wrote:
> > Often, laziness was the Mother
> >    Of All Invention - "This SUCKS ... how can I make
> >    it easier/better ?".
> 
> Which was pretty much Linus' attitude, and the rest, is history

	More like Stallman's and before that a certain group at Berkeley
and before that a handful of people at Bell and before that ... 

	It's giant's shoulders all the way down, all stacked up like a
circus pyramid.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN                                     | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#33125

On 05/09/2021 10:49, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 09:38:56 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On 05/09/2021 06:40, SixOverFive wrote:
>>> Often, laziness was the Mother
>>>     Of All Invention - "This SUCKS ... how can I make
>>>     it easier/better ?".
>>
>> Which was pretty much Linus' attitude, and the rest, is history
> 
> 	More like Stallman's and before that a certain group at Berkeley
> and before that a handful of people at Bell and before that ...
> 
> 	It's giant's shoulders all the way down, all stacked up like a
> circus pyramid.
> 
And then you get Computer Scientists, and their attitude is 'this is too 
easy/simple, how can we make it more complicated?'

-- 
There’s a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons 
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

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