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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread

Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI

Started byLeroy H <lh@somewhere.net>
First post2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Last post2026-10-18 10:59 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 308 — 24 participants

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Contents

  Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:48 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:12 +0100
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 13:04 +0000
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 14:40 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:00 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
                                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:23 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:03 +0000
                                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:02 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:40 +0000
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
                                                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:00 +0000
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:12 +0200
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 13:26 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:35 +0200
                                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:04 +0000
                                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:24 +0200
                                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
                                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:37 +0000
                                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:04 +0100
                                              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 09:39 +0000
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:58 -0400
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:55 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:43 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 09:36 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 12:03 +0100
                                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-19 12:39 +0000
                                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:19 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-17 06:37 -0400
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:20 +0200
                                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:50 +0000
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
                                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
                            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:07 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 21:55 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 05:00 -0400
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:56 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:09 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:58 +0100
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 13:33 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:08 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-19 02:13 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-19 11:39 +0200
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 18:52 +0000
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-19 03:22 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-19 03:55 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 20:07 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:41 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 13:13 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:50 -0700
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:15 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:41 -0400
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:00 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:26 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:42 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:56 +0100
                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:14 +0000
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:07 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:20 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:26 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:32 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:21 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:04 +0000
                          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:24 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:27 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:20 +0100
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 01:13 +0100
                  Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-17 02:32 +0000
                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 03:04 +0000
                      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:41 +0100
                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 12:45 +0200
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-19 16:05 +0100
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:24 +0000
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:16 +0100
              Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:53 +0200
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 06:02 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:26 -0700
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 06:42 +0000
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:41 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 06:39 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:22 -0400
            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:54 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:19 +0100
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:40 +0000
          Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:52 +0100
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      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 05:29 +0000
        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 10:07 +0100
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            Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:26 +0100
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                Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:40 +0100
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                    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 13:39 +0100
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      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:16 +0100
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                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-17 01:55 +0000
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                        Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:28 +0100
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    Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 11:44 -0400
      Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:14 +0000
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#94248

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 21:38 +0000
Message-ID<11b3e82$1h3cv$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94246
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 14:38:31 -0600, Blaine wrote:

> I had to put numpy back on the shelf. The use I found for it to this
> point was 3D placement. But it says somewhere in small print: don't
> use this for small vectors (3 per vector in 3D placement).

Did you understand that by “small vectors” they meant “arrays of few
elements”, not “vectors with dimensions as few as 3”?

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#94256

FromBlaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com>
Date2026-10-18 16:07 -0600
Message-ID<11b3fur$1hpjj$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94248
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 14:38:31 -0600, Blaine wrote:
> 
>> I had to put numpy back on the shelf. The use I found for it to this
>> point was 3D placement. But it says somewhere in small print: don't
>> use this for small vectors (3 per vector in 3D placement).
> 
> Did you understand that by “small vectors” they meant “arrays of few
> elements”, not “vectors with dimensions as few as 3”?
> 
True. Perchance I could have wrapped the vectors together making a data 
group of larger size.

-- 
Can you strip away so we may start again?
"There’s a switch and they don't
seem authentic or themselves. It
feels like I’m an unnecessary
body and it’s a waste of time to
even be there." -- Grim, playful Blaine.

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#94253

FromPiergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de>
Date2026-10-18 23:44 +0200
Message-ID<17rfqm-jkc1.ln1@lazy.lzy>
In reply to#94237
On 18/10/2026 22.05, rbowman wrote:
[...]
> Confusing but after seeing posts like 'Hi, I'm starting to learn Python.
> How do I use numpy?'  you want to scream 'learn the basics first!'

Why?
Maybe such person is interested in numpy for
something matlab-like, but not in python as such.

Which brings us back to the "too many libraries"
pyhton has.

For any thinkable application there is likely a
python library, but the person interested in
the application, might not really be interested
in python, if not for the convenience of having
almost everything already cooked.

A bit of chicken / egg problem...

bye,

-- 

piergiorgio

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#94258

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 22:09 +0000
Message-ID<11b3g34$1h3cv$6@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94253
On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 23:44:33 +0200, Piergiorgio Sartor wrote:

> Which brings us back to the "too many libraries" [Python] has.

At some point, people were staying away from Python because it didn’t
have enough libraries. Now the new excuse is that it has too many.

It’s not like getting married, you know; you can try a few, pick the
one(s) you find useful, and chuck the rest. That’s what choice is all
about, and Open Source is all about choice.

> For any thinkable application there is likely a python library, but
> the person interested in the application, might not really be
> interested in python, if not for the convenience of having almost
> everything already cooked.

That's what attracts people to Python.

Why do you think Python has been able to achieve such a state, to a
greater extent than any prior language? Even overtaking ones that had
some quite big corporate heavyweight sponsorship behind them?

Clue: it must have been something about the core language to begin
with, that made it such an attactive basis to build on.

> A bit of chicken / egg problem...

It’s not Python that has the chicken/egg problem ...

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#94292

FromPiergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de>
Date2026-10-19 09:54 +0200
Message-ID<kuugqm-7ub.ln1@lazy.lzy>
In reply to#94258
On 19/10/2026 00.09, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
[...]
> At some point, people were staying away from Python because it didn’t
> have enough libraries. Now the new excuse is that it has too many.

No, the situation is the opposite.
People use python because of the libraries,
the very easy way to use them, but might not
care less about the language itself.
The language is just a commodity, it has no
rewarding features, except for the libraries.

Note that this is just an interpretation,
not necessarily my opinion.
Generally speaking I find the language OKish,
even if I can see few improvements here and there.

> It’s not like getting married, you know; you can try a few, pick the
> one(s) you find useful, and chuck the rest. That’s what choice is all
> about, and Open Source is all about choice.

Oh, I cannot agree more.

>> For any thinkable application there is likely a python library, but
>> the person interested in the application, might not really be
>> interested in python, if not for the convenience of having almost
>> everything already cooked.
> 
> That's what attracts people to Python.
> 
> Why do you think Python has been able to achieve such a state, to a
> greater extent than any prior language? Even overtaking ones that had
> some quite big corporate heavyweight sponsorship behind them?
> 
> Clue: it must have been something about the core language to begin
> with, that made it such an attactive basis to build on.

Not 100% sure about that.

Initially python was sold as java replacement,
but free from corporate interests.

Later it developed in something much greater.
To the point that even corporates adopted it.

Just a different perspective.

>> A bit of chicken / egg problem...
> 
> It’s not Python that has the chicken/egg problem ...

Of course not, but some users have it.

bye,

-- 

piergiorgio

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#94297

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-19 08:40 +0000
Message-ID<11b4l2g$1st2r$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94292
On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 09:54:28 +0200, Piergiorgio Sartor wrote:

> On 19/10/2026 00.09, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>> Why do you think Python has been able to achieve such a state, to a
>> greater extent than any prior language? Even overtaking ones that
>> had some quite big corporate heavyweight sponsorship behind them?
>>
>> Clue: it must have been something about the core language to begin
>> with, that made it such an attactive basis to build on.
>
> Not 100% sure about that.
>
> Initially python was sold as java replacement, but free from
> corporate interests.

How was it “sold”, if it was being given away for free by a nonprofit
dependent on volunteer support?

Remember the corporate interests have access to million-dollar
publicity budgets that no Free Software project can afford.

Consider Microsoft Basic, for example, with the backing of the world’s
most powerful computer company behind it. For building up a critical
mass of libraries, it had a head start, not just of a few years, but
of a decade or two, on Python. Yet nobody uses it any more. How come?

Even Java had the support of Sun, probably the most successful Unix
company. Yet Python has managed to overtake that, as well.

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#94299

FromPiergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de>
Date2026-10-19 10:55 +0200
Message-ID<hh2hqm-6ub.ln1@lazy.lzy>
In reply to#94297
On 19/10/2026 10.40, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
[...]
> How was it “sold”, if it was being given away for free by a nonprofit
> dependent on volunteer support?

Oh, come on!
Sold! "Sold"? It's common English expression, not
involving money, but intentions.

It means some people, users, developers, were
"advertising" (without any budget) python as a
nice alternative to java (which was seen more closed).
That's it. Budget does not play a role, here.

I remember clearly an article chastising java
for becoming "irrelevant *scripting* language
(like python)".
Imagine that...

This is a different perspective, alternative to
"language is so good, that's why it's successful".
> Remember the corporate interests have access to million-dollar
> publicity budgets that no Free Software project can afford.

That does not seem to work either way.
Linux was successful without publicity budget, it seems.
On the other hand, OS/2 was not that successful, despite
a large potential publicity budget.

So what?

Things are not always what they seem or what
they are supposed or the are wished to be.

bye,

-- 

piergiorgio

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#94320

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-10-19 07:16 -0400
Message-ID<Q4ecnaBZuvazYUj3nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#94297
On 10/19/26 04:40, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 09:54:28 +0200, Piergiorgio Sartor wrote:
> 
>> On 19/10/2026 00.09, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>> Why do you think Python has been able to achieve such a state, to a
>>> greater extent than any prior language? Even overtaking ones that
>>> had some quite big corporate heavyweight sponsorship behind them?
>>>
>>> Clue: it must have been something about the core language to begin
>>> with, that made it such an attactive basis to build on.
>>
>> Not 100% sure about that.
>>
>> Initially python was sold as java replacement, but free from
>> corporate interests.
> 
> How was it “sold”, if it was being given away for free by a nonprofit
> dependent on volunteer support?
> 
> Remember the corporate interests have access to million-dollar
> publicity budgets that no Free Software project can afford.
> 
> Consider Microsoft Basic, for example, with the backing of the world’s
> most powerful computer company behind it. For building up a critical
> mass of libraries, it had a head start, not just of a few years, but
> of a decade or two, on Python. Yet nobody uses it any more. How come?
> 
> Even Java had the support of Sun, probably the most successful Unix
> company. Yet Python has managed to overtake that, as well.

   I find Python pleasant to code with. Pascal is a bit
   more elegant but for me Python and Pascal tie for
   "most likable". 'C' ... kind of like building a car
   engine from the bolts on up.

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#94247

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 21:36 +0000
Message-ID<11b3e5a$1h3cv$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94126
On 18 Oct 2026 09:57:01 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many
> packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit
> confusing.

More likely an indication that the person giving such advice is ...
confused ... ;)

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#94286

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-10-19 00:22 -0400
Message-ID<KuOdnQWAzoudBkj3nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#94126
On 10/18/26 05:57, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 18-10-2026, Blaine <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Because I tricked you into thinking, "To begin" means "well here we go
>> again." I intentionally made it obscure that I am instructing the
>> beginner on this point. I am suggesting that someone "new" to Python
>> shouldn't import very many packages, as they can overlap problematically.
> 
> One of the power of python is the number of available packages. As the
> saying go, in C you have a million ways to do what you want when in
> python you have a million packages to do what you want.
> 
> So, telling beginners that python is great because it has so many
> packages, but one should try to avoid using them can be a little bit
> confusing.

   However the number of libs, there is more GOOD DOCUMENTATION
   these days for the Python stuff. Too much 'C' stuff just
   ASSUMES you know every what/why/how because you're such a
   great mighty 'C' programmer, of course. Also can be many
   more options, ok optional SCREW-UPS, with any 'C' libs you
   find. The more 'plain English' aspects of Python often get
   you going sooner with less bullshit. Leave the fiddly  'C'
   to the people who write the Python libs. Python, mostly,
   Just Works smooth and simple.

   There are advantages in 'C' and advantages in Python. All
   depends on what you are DOING.

   As said, for 30+ years I did most everything in 'C' or
   Pascal. Past five years, almost entirely in Python.
   Pascal is more elegant and self-documenting, and
   FPC/Lazarus IS  by far the quickest way to a usable GUI,
   but some of the functions/structures ARE less clean
   than 'C', kinda afterthoughts glued on to the Wirthian
   foundation.

   Pick the best tool for the job at hand. No 'religion'.

   These days, for 90% at least, the Best Tool is
   probably Python. Some stuff you'll have to strong-
   arm it to do ... so look elsewhere.

   Oh, 'found' for Linux, the TCC, Tiny-C Compiler. Does
   MANY useful things GCC and LLVM/Clang can do but produces
   tighter code faster. Added it to Code::Blocks as an option
   easy to switch to. Great for 'utilities'.

   Still trying to find a good use/reason for 'D' - still
   preferable to Rust in my aesthetic  :-)

   Oh well, there's always FORTRAN and COBOL ... do on odd
   occasion write something in FORTRAN, but would rather
   forget COBOL :-)

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#94101

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-10-18 02:49 +0000
Message-ID<njiqeaFei39U22@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#94082
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:36:37 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

>> ... so well that now some distros don't let you install libraries with
>> pip if you are not in a virtual environment.
> 
> Do other languages get away with allowing you to override standard
> system libraries without breaking things?

I prefer venvs, particularly when using uv to set a Python version. For 
example when tensorflow says Python 3.9-3.12 they don't mean 3.13, 3.14, 
or 3.15. 

One annoyance is the different site packages on the various distros. For 
example on Fedora you can install python3-ruff as a site package with 
dnf.  On Ubuntu 26.04 you get 'Error: Unable to locate package python3-
ruff' and have to install it in a venv.

No big deal but it's easier to create the venv for the project just in 
case.

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#94130

FromJohn Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com>
Date2026-10-18 12:14 +0200
Message-ID<11b265k$11csg$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94101
On 18/10/2026 04:49, rbowman wrote:
[..]
> One annoyance is the different site packages on the various distros. For
> example on Fedora you can install python3-ruff as a site package with
> dnf.  On Ubuntu 26.04 you get 'Error: Unable to locate package python3-
> ruff' and have to install it in a venv.

Or use docker.

-- 
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/

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#93973

FromJan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 07:20 +0000
Message-ID<11av7ki$3vvao$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93932
>Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid>wrote:
>>On Fri, 16 Oct 2026 17:10:18 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>> Well C++ is a crime against humanity
>> 'operator overloading...' crap bloated crap.
>
>Operator overloading is a very handy feature. Yes, C++ is overly
>complicated. Java left out that feature of C++, and it, too, still
>manages to be excessively complicated.
>
>Python, on the other hand, includes operator overloading, yet is still
>only a small fraction of the complexity of either Java or C++. Such a
>feature is useful, for example, in letting you express operations on
>mathematical objects (like vectors and matrices) using something close
>to the original mathematical notation.

OK
I never got much into Python
Never needed it for the things I do.
Also it seems to be changing all the time?
Most code I write is in C or in asm for Microchips.
asm is extremely powerful
 understand the hardware!!!
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/newsflex/download.html
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/quadcopter/index.html
https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/pic/index.html
These days giggle bytes seem to be needed to just say: 'Hello world'.
Too many layers of crap.

But I come from a hardware background, in the sixties there were no 'computers'
yet they did a manned Moon landing and return.
Now they have nothing to show but driving around the block (earth orbit) with
all that computing power.

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#93974

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 07:43 +0000
Message-ID<11av8v9$9j8$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93973
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 07:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

> I never got much into Python
> Never needed it for the things I do.
> Also it seems to be changing all the time?

New features appear every year.

> But I come from a hardware background, in the sixties there were no
> 'computers' yet they did a manned Moon landing and return.

Of course they had “computers” -- several giant IBM mainframes at
Mission Control. Also every engineer had their trusty slide rule
handy.

There were 4 computers on the Apollo spacecraft -- one to control the
Saturn rocket, one in the Command Module, and 2 (1 for backup) on the
Lunar Module.

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#94017

FromJan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 12:17 +0000
Message-ID<11avp0q$65kh$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#93974
>Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid>wrote:
>>On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 07:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>> I never got much into Python
>> Never needed it for the things I do.
>> Also it seems to be changing all the time?
>
>New features appear every year.
>
>> But I come from a hardware background, in the sixties there were no
>> 'computers' yet they did a manned Moon landing and return.
>
>Of course they had “computers” -- several giant IBM mainframes at
>Mission Control. Also every engineer had their trusty slide rule
>handy.
>
>There were 4 computers on the Apollo spacecraft -- one to control the
>Saturn rocket, one in the Command Module, and 2 (1 for backup) on the
>Lunar Module.

You are right, real computers, I just read
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer

Not much memory compared to today's ...
I still have a slide rule somewhere...
And old calculators..

I remember playing moonlanding game on a Commodore PET in the seventies?

:-)

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#94075

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-10-17 20:18 +0000
Message-ID<nji3gfFei39U16@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#94017
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 12:17:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:


> Not much memory compared to today's ...
> I still have a slide rule somewhere... And old calculators..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360_Model_30

I believe RPI's had 32k of core. For FFTs etc you wrote partial products 
to tape, rewind, and take another pass. Rinse and repeat. rewind() is 
still in the C standard library but it was very literal back then.

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#94111

FromJan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
Date2026-10-18 08:16 +0000
Message-ID<11b1v91$v6cl$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94075
>rbowman <bowman@montana.com>wrote:
>>On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 12:17:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>
>> Not much memory compared to today's ...
>> I still have a slide rule somewhere... And old calculators..
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360_Model_30
>
>I believe RPI's had 32k of core. For FFTs etc you wrote partial products 
>to tape, rewind, and take another pass. Rinse and repeat. rewind() is 
>still in the C standard library but it was very literal back then.

In those days I was working in broadcasting, no computers there, tubes, lots and lots of logic and transistors, 
 https://archive.org/details/ampex-vr-1100-videotape-television-recorder
then we got the VR2000
and later the  AVR1 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruplex_videotape

When the Moon landings happened I was in the head control room here relaying it to the people.
Lots of tubes those days in that studio, had to keep it running.

At home I had my own video recorder:
 https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/philips_ldl100001ldl_10000.html 
Later modified it for color...

Video has become a sort of second nature to me.

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#94076

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-10-17 20:18 +0000
Message-ID<11b0l6p$iems$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#94017
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 12:17:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer
>
> Not much memory compared to today's ...

Well, they weren’t running a complex GUI ;). You entered “Noun” and
“Verb” numbers to select which program to run. E.g. the program for
the lunar landing was “P64”. During the Apollo 11 landing, it crashed,
twice.

> I still have a slide rule somewhere...

I remember reading that the world’s largest slide-rule maker at the
time, Keufel & Esser, went bust in 1971. Electronic digital
calculators had arrived ... not long after the last Moon landing.

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#94115

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-10-18 04:47 -0400
Message-ID<D1qdnXTkH9BbGkn3nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#94076
On 10/17/26 16:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 12:17:29 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer
>>
>> Not much memory compared to today's ...
> 
> Well, they weren’t running a complex GUI ;). You entered “Noun” and
> “Verb” numbers to select which program to run. E.g. the program for
> the lunar landing was “P64”. During the Apollo 11 landing, it crashed,
> twice.

   It was a totally CRAP computer ... "rope memory" ...
   probably less power than a PIC16f84.

   AMAZING they got down safe - credit Cool Neil.

>> I still have a slide rule somewhere...

   I have a few as well. NOT bad tools, even now, and
   don't need batteries. Civ implodes, slide-rules
   will be THE most coveted devices.

> I remember reading that the world’s largest slide-rule maker at the
> time, Keufel & Esser, went bust in 1971. Electronic digital
> calculators had arrived ... not long after the last Moon landing.

   I bought some of the earliest 'calculators'. NOT
   cheap back in the day. Still have ONE that works.
   9V battery and it Goes. Early 70s. Pre-LED.

   BEFORE, Dad had a "Marchant" MECHANICAL calculator.
   Enter numbers on a big matrix keyboard. Press a
   function key. Calc might be quick, or take an hour.
   Ka-CHUNK Ka-CHUNK Ka-CHUNK .... mech-digital display.
   Super cool ! INSANE gearworks !

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#94040

FromLeroy H <lh@somewhere.net>
Date2026-10-17 17:26 +0000
Message-ID<18df6128f9a41e3b$1918$1722273$802601b3@news.usenetexpress.com>
In reply to#93973
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 07:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

>
> Most code I write is in C or in asm for Microchips.
> asm is extremely powerful
>  understand the hardware!!!
>

It is good to hear someone actually standing up for
C and assembly.

These Linux groups seem to be packed only with Python/C++
jockeys.  The poor dupes don't know what they're missing.

Assembly is the most fun of any programming language.
There is none of the uncertainty that slows one down
when using a higher level language.  The instructions
just flow effortlessly.

However, I do still have trouble with the shuffle operations
on the SIMD registers.  I need to always check the manuals
to see what goes where.

Intel and GCC provide support for so-called "intrinsics" that
allow assembly code to be directly incorporated into C code,
but these, for me, are tedious and not much fun to use.

You are also correct in stating that a thorough knowledge
of hardware is a requisite for assembly programming.  After
all, one is dealing directly with digital registers with no
cozy compiler or interpreter in between.


>
> These days giggle bytes seem to be needed to just say: 'Hello world'.
> Too many layers of crap.
> 

GNU has published the definitive version of Hello World:

<https://www.gnu.org/software/hello/>

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