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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #93793 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 271 — 23 participants |
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Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 03:26 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 00:00 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 04:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 21:53 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 01:31 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 06:08 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 04:39 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:49 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 08:53 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-16 05:26 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:29 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:31 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:16 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-16 19:42 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:44 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:55 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 09:20 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 11:20 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 11:09 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 12:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 12:15 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:05 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:54 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 16:46 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 16:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 19:01 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 14:48 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Harold Stevens <wookie@bookworm.localdomain> - 2026-10-17 08:26 -0500
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 15:01 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Tapiro Ubriaco <interwebs.dude@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 22:11 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-17 08:52 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:30 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:17 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:30 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:54 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 19:56 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-10-18 04:32 -0400
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:30 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:13 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 14:19 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:38 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 15:10 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:58 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-18 16:04 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 15:33 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:37 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 20:11 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:53 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-10-18 14:04 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 14:50 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 20:19 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 03:48 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 02:20 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 11:59 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:48 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 13:25 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 20:15 +0200
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 11:36 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 14:57 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-15 23:16 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-16 07:45 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Peyton" <peyton@solacium.us> - 2026-10-16 08:41 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 18:27 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> - 2026-10-16 23:43 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-17 22:31 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-10-18 21:58 +0200
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-10-16 13:13 -0700
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:27 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-17 04:15 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 09:57 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 15:26 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:32 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-16 22:21 +0100
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-17 09:24 +0100
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-16 19:27 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-10-17 18:33 +0000
Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-18 03:04 +0000
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Re: Back To CS Basics. Fuck AI "De ongekruisigde ds." <ongekruisigde-ds@invalid.invalid> - 2026-10-18 10:59 +0000
Page 10 of 14 — ← Prev page 1 … 8 9 [10] 11 12 … 14 Next page →
| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:08 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b29bt$11pis$11@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94054 |
On 17/10/2026 19:33, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > On 2026-10-17, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >> On 17/10/2026 15:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote: >> >>> We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues >>> (exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not >>> really problematic. >> >> Wow. someone has a real use for it! >> >> I just am too old to become proficient in another language, I am still >> battling JavaScript > > I still use C. I started puttering with Python once - > maybe I should take another look at it. > Too old and tired and lacking in oxygen -- Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 19:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nji1u1Fei39U11@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94030 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 15:06:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 17/10/2026 15:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote: >> We make extensive use of Python, apart from some performance issues >> (exacerbated by the not particularly speedy SoC it runs on) it’s not >> really problematic. > > Wow. someone has a real use for it! > > I just am too old to become proficient in another language, I am still > battling JavaScript Much of my use these days is MicroPython, although I used it last week to convert a gnarly node list output from a LoRa board to GeoJSON. My first impulse was to use C but I'm trying to improve my general Python skills. The JavaScript part came later when I used the leaflet.js library to create a map to display the GeoJSON. Unfortunately leaflet traditionally used tiles from the OSM server. In the last month or so they've started enforcing an obscure header in the request so the tiles you get are basically '403 FOAD'
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 17:36 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b04le$auup$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94028 |
On 17/10/2026 16:02, Richard Kettlewell wrote: [..] > Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it > won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type: > > >>> 0+"" > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module> > 0+"" > ~^~~ > TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str' On the other hand: ❯ python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Aug 8 2026, 20:03:42) [Clang 13.1.6 (clang-1316.0.21.2.5)] on darwin Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> 0+True 1 >>> type(True) <class 'bool'> >>> type(0) <class 'int'> >>> ;-) -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 17:12 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wwvv770b91x.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #94032 |
John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> writes:
> Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
>> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>> >>> 0+""
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>> File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
>> 0+""
>> ~^~~
>> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
>
> On the other hand:
>
> ❯ python3
> Python 3.14.7 (main, Aug 8 2026, 20:03:42) [Clang 13.1.6
> (clang-1316.0.21.2.5)] on darwin
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> 0+True
> 1
>>>> type(True)
> <class 'bool'>
>>>> type(0)
> <class 'int'>
>>>>
>
> ;-)
>>> issubclass(bool, int)
True
l-)
Still, typed doesn’t mean complete immiscibility of types (at least in
Python), and a good thing too, since lots of operations take operands of
different types. For example if d is an int and G is a Python object
representing a point on an elliptic curve, I want to be able to write
d*G, not mess around with function calls to do point multiplication.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 20:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <nji2ocFei39U13@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94033 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 17:12:26 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > Still, typed doesn’t mean complete immiscibility of types (at least in > Python), and a good thing too, since lots of operations take operands of > different types. For example if d is an int and G is a Python object > representing a point on an elliptic curve, I want to be able to write > d*G, > not mess around with function calls to do point multiplication. I've been trying to get up to speed with type hints. Like 'private' functions in Python they seem to depend on a gentleman's agreement not to do bad things. Like TypeScript it helps but still has loopholes.
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 22:35 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b0m5o$j23b$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94071 |
On 17/10/2026 22:05, rbowman wrote: > On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 17:12:26 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > >> Still, typed doesn’t mean complete immiscibility of types (at least in >> Python), and a good thing too, since lots of operations take operands of >> different types. For example if d is an int and G is a Python object >> representing a point on an elliptic curve, I want to be able to write >> d*G, >> not mess around with function calls to do point multiplication. > > I've been trying to get up to speed with type hints. Like 'private' > functions in Python they seem to depend on a gentleman's agreement not to > do bad things. Like TypeScript it helps but still has loopholes. They are hints, so yes and no: if you run the code first through mypy or pyrefly (which I prefer) and it doesn't pass just don't run it. That's not really a loophole. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 09:12 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wwv4iejzau6.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #94071 |
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes: > Richard Kettlewell wrote: >> Still, typed doesn’t mean complete immiscibility of types (at least >> in Python), and a good thing too, since lots of operations take >> operands of different types. For example if d is an int and G is a >> Python object representing a point on an elliptic curve, I want to be >> able to write d*G, not mess around with function calls to do point >> multiplication. > > I've been trying to get up to speed with type hints. Like 'private' > functions in Python they seem to depend on a gentleman's agreement not > to do bad things. Like TypeScript it helps but still has loopholes. How strictly it’s enforced is a higher-level question. If you deploy and run Python code indiscriminately then it’s not enforced at all. If you insist on a `mypy --strict` pass somewhere in your build chain then it’s pretty solidly enforced. Much the same is true for code quality filters in other languages. In any language you might insist on some or all of unit test passes, a code coverage threshold, static analysis, AI review, human review etc before deployment. In some languages (e.g. C and C++) you choose which set of compiler warnings to enable and which of them should be errors. It’s all “gentleman’s agreement” if you want to characterize it that way, with relatively few exceptions none of this stuff is unavoidably enforced by the language implementation. -- https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 16:46 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad3a65d$0$31896$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94028 |
Le 17-10-2026, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>> From what I saw, for a beginner's approach, python is easier than Java
>> or C++. Now when one starts to use python in the real life, the
>> complexity of python appears. Because that's the python way: things
>> works except when they stop to work.
>>
>> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
>> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
>> before the facts.
>
> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>
> >>> 0+""
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
> 0+""
> ~^~~
> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases it's
not that important.
With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
know.
>> Or you want to see what's in some variables, so you print it with
>> print(myvariable)
>> When you start to have too many variables, you want to put the name of
>> the variable in front of it to increase its visibility, so you
>> print("myvariable: " + myvariable)
>> but that doesn't work because myvariable is not a string. So you have to
>> print("myvariable: " + str(myvariable))
>> But now you have the description of myvariable (or something like that:
>> I discovered it a long time ago, my memory isn't clear about it), not
>> its content, so you have to handle it differently (about that, I'm sure).
>
> It sounds like you just haven’t learned Python.
You are right, I haven't learned python. I'm not a programmer. I'm using
programs written by others and sometimes, I have to change them. I don't
have time to learn a programming language when I need to fix a program.
I have to make it run as expected and move on once I get the expected
result.
With python, that looks easy and when I fix something, it breaks
something else for reasons I don't understand. Because the issue was
already there but it wasn't important, until it started to be important
after I changed something else.
And so, for me it always looks like in python things work in a way until
they stop working for unobvious reasons.
With other programming languages I saw, either that works or that
doesn't, but I never saw something that stops working when it starts to
be more complex. It looks like it's a python specialty.
--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 19:01 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b09ko$dn7j$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94035 |
On 17/10/2026 18:46, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: [..] > With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't > declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare > integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't > know. I guess you confuse assigning a type with creating an object of a specific type. > With python, that looks easy and when I fix something, it breaks > something else for reasons I don't understand. I recommend to install Copilot CLI on your system and ask it to explain why your script breaks. It's quite good at explaining is my experience. -- Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/ Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 19:08 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b0a1q$du4m$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94036 |
On 17/10/2026 19:01, John Bokma wrote:
> On 17/10/2026 18:46, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
> [..]
>
>> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
>> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
>> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
>> know.
>
> I guess you confuse assigning a type with creating an object of a
> specific type.
>
>> With python, that looks easy and when I fix something, it breaks
>> something else for reasons I don't understand.
>
> I recommend to install Copilot CLI on your system and ask it to explain
> why your script breaks. It's quite good at explaining is my experience.
Examples:
Explain as a professional Python programmer why 1+True yields 2 and is valid
Thought for 3s
In Python, bool is a subclass of int . The two Boolean values behave
numerically as False == 0 and True == 1 , so adding True to 1 is
equivalent to 1 + 1 :
1 + True # 2
type(1 + True) # int
It’s valid because Python’s numeric operations accept Boolean values as
integers. In application code, though, it’s usually clearer to convert
or count explicitly if you intend to use a Boolean as a number.
Why do I have to declare dictionaries but can use integers and strings
without declaring their type
Thought for 2s
In Python, you don’t have to declare a dictionary’s type. Python is
dynamically typed: a variable name refers to an object, and the object
carries its type.
count = 3 # creates an int object
message = "hello" # creates a str object
settings = {} # creates a dict object
Integers and strings have compact literal syntax ( 3 , "hello" );
dictionaries use {} or key-value pairs, such as {"theme": "dark"} .
That’s creating a dictionary, not declaring its type.
Type annotations are optional and mainly help readers and
static-analysis tools:
settings: dict[str, str] = {}
Can't recommend Copilot enough.
--
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:07 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b29a9$11pis$10@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94037 |
On 17/10/2026 18:08, John Bokma wrote: > Examples: > > Explain as a professional Python programmer why 1+True yields 2 and is > valid > Thought for 3s > > In Python, bool is a subclass of int . The two Boolean values behave > numerically as False == 0 and True == 1 , so adding True to 1 is > equivalent to 1 + 1 : > > 1 + True # 2 > type(1 + True) # int > > It’s valid because Python’s numeric operations accept Boolean values as > integers. In application code, though, it’s usually clearer to convert > or count explicitly if you intend to use a Boolean as a number. With Booleans the + operator ought to be an OR function so TRUE + TRUE = TRUE -- “The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the urge to rule it.” – H. L. Mencken
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 09:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad48fdc$0$11444$426a34cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94036 |
Le 17-10-2026, John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> a écrit : > On 17/10/2026 18:46, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > > [..] > >> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't >> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare >> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't >> know. > > I guess you confuse assigning a type with creating an object of a > specific type. Probably. Sometimes some methods didn't work if I didn't assign an empty dictionary first. So, I assumed, maybe wrongly, that assigning an empty value was declaring it, maybe there are some subtleties. >> With python, that looks easy and when I fix something, it breaks >> something else for reasons I don't understand. > > I recommend to install Copilot CLI on your system and ask it to explain > why your script breaks. It's quite good at explaining is my experience. Well, at work I don't install what I want on my computer. -- Si vous avez du temps à perdre : https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 20:29 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <wwv33u4t9bq.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #94035 |
Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
>>> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
>>> before the facts.
>>
>> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
>> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>>
>> >>> 0+""
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>> File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
>> 0+""
>> ~^~~
>> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
>
> In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases
> it's not that important.
>
> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
> know.
No special declaration is needed for dicts, you can just write out the
dict you want.
>>> d={'a': 1, 'b': 2}
>>> type(d)
<class 'dict'>
> With other programming languages I saw, either that works or that
> doesn't, but I never saw something that stops working when it starts to
> be more complex. It looks like it's a python specialty.
No, I think the issue here is pretty obviously the attempt to use a tool
without learning how it works.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 09:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <6ad49284$0$28083$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #94065 |
Le 17-10-2026, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>> Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> a écrit :
>>> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> writes:
>>>> Like, it's not a typed language but start playing with dictionaries
>>>> without declaring your variables first to see how the claims stand
>>>> before the facts.
>>>
>>> Python is absolutely a typed language. Every object has a type and it
>>> won’t let you use objects in a manner incompatible with their type:
>>>
>>> >>> 0+""
>>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>> File "<python-input-0>", line 1, in <module>
>>> 0+""
>>> ~^~~
>>> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
>>
>> In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases
>> it's not that important.
>>
>> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
>> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
>> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
>> know.
>
> No special declaration is needed for dicts, you can just write out the
> dict you want.
>
> >>> d={'a': 1, 'b': 2}
> >>> type(d)
> <class 'dict'>
As John said, I'm probably confusing declaring, creating and assigning a
value to a variable. Because when I assigned an empty dictionary to a
variable, all three of them are done at the same time.
The issue wasn't about assigning a new dictionary to a variable, but
adding some values in it. Some methods didn't worked for adding values
if I didn't assign an empty dictionary or an empty list first, before
doing anything on it.
>> With other programming languages I saw, either that works or that
>> doesn't, but I never saw something that stops working when it starts to
>> be more complex. It looks like it's a python specialty.
>
> No, I think the issue here is pretty obviously the attempt to use a tool
> without learning how it works.
I managed to do it with other programming languages. I managed to do it
with python, to. In the end, it worked. But it was more cumbersome with
python. I'm not saying that a programming language should be able to be
used without being learned. I'm saying that it's not an easier language
to use.
--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 21:59 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b3fgl$1h3cv$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94122 |
On 18 Oct 2026 09:33:56 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> The issue wasn't about assigning a new dictionary to a variable, but
> adding some values in it. Some methods didn't worked for adding
> values if I didn't assign an empty dictionary or an empty list
> first, before doing anything on it.
Well, naturally, if you want to make a change to an object, that object
must a) be mutable, and b) exist in the first place.
E.g. appending to a list:
>>> a = None
>>> a.append("something")
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<python-input-1>", line 1, in <module>
a.append("something")
^^^^^^^^
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'append'
Naturally that doesn’t work, but
>>> a = []
>>> a.append("something")
>>> a
['something']
Naturally that works. Similarly
>>> a = None
>>> a["colour"] = "green"
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<python-input-6>", line 1, in <module>
a["colour"] = "green"
~^^^^^^^^^^
TypeError: 'NoneType' object does not support item assignment
doesn’t work either, but
>>> a = {}
>>> a["colour"] = "green"
>>> a
{'colour': 'green'}
does work.
> I managed to do it with other programming languages. I managed to do
> it with python, to. In the end, it worked. But it was more
> cumbersome with python. I'm not saying that a programming language
> should be able to be used without being learned. I'm saying that
> it's not an easier language to use.
I’d be curious to see some more detail about what exactly the
situation was, if you can supply it. Maybe you were thinking in terms
of declaring variables of a prespecified type, when Python doesn’t
really have such a concept?
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:09 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <11b29e0$11pis$12@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94065 |
On 17/10/2026 20:29, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > I think the issue here is pretty obviously the attempt to use a tool > without learning how it works. The best tools are self explanatory... -- Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-17 20:42 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <11b0mis$iems$7@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94035 |
On 17 Oct 2026 16:46:21 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> In this case python is a strongly typed language and in other cases
> it's not that important.
It’s *always* important. Consider why languages like PHP (ptui) and
JavaScript need that extra “===” comparison operator: it’s to disable
automatic type conversions (e.g. number ↔ string) that Python refuses
to do anyway.
> With some typed languages, you can't use a variable if you didn't
> declare it's type before. With python, you don't need to declare
> integers and strings but you need to declare dictionaries. Why? Don't
> know.
Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
ldo@hypatia:~> python3
Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29) [GCC 16.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a = "some text"
>>> print(a)
some text
>>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>>> print(a)
{'colour': 'green'}
>>>
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 01:54 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <njin6fFei39U19@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #94086 |
On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>
> ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
> [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
> "license"
> for more information.
> >>> a = "some text" print(a)
> some text
> >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
> >>> print(a)
> {'colour': 'green'}
Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>> print(a)
{'coluor': 'green'}
>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>> print(a)
{'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad
hoc fields.
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:11 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b25vq$11csg$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94098 |
On 18/10/2026 03:54, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>>
>> ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
>> [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>> "license"
>> for more information.
>> >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>> some text
>> >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>> >>> print(a)
>> {'colour': 'green'}
>
> Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>>> print(a)
> {'coluor': 'green'}
>>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>>> print(a)
> {'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
>
>
> I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
> spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad
> hoc fields.
If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps
kw_only=True).
--
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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| From | John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-10-18 12:38 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <11b27jb$121rl$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #94129 |
On 18/10/2026 12:11, John Bokma wrote:
> On 18/10/2026 03:54, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2026 20:42:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Who says you need to “declare dictionaries”?
>>>
>>> ldo@hypatia:~> python3 Python 3.14.7 (main, Sep 13 2026, 08:30:29)
>>> [GCC 16.2.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or
>>> "license"
>>> for more information.
>>> >>> a = "some text" print(a)
>>> some text
>>> >>> a = {"colour" : "green"}
>>> >>> print(a)
>>> {'colour': 'green'}
>>
>> Python 3.14.4 (main, Aug 20 2026, 10:41:58) [GCC 15.2.0] on linux
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>> a = {"coluor" : "green"}
>>>>> print(a)
>> {'coluor': 'green'}
>>>>> a["color"] = "purple"
>>>>> print(a)
>> {'coluor': 'green', 'color': 'purple'}
>>
>>
>> I've seen bugs introduced either by typos or a programmer who couldn't
>> spell. It's either a very handy feature or a potential problem to add ad
>> hoc fields.
>
> If that's the case use a dataclass with frozen=True (and perhaps
> kw_only=True).
❯ python3
Python 3.14.7 (main, Aug 8 2026, 20:03:42) [Clang 13.1.6
(clang-1316.0.21.2.5)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> from dataclasses import dataclass
>>> @dataclass(frozen=True, kw_only=True)
... class Config:
... color: str
...
>>> a = Config(color='purple')
>>> a.coluor
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<python-input-3>", line 1, in <module>
a.coluor
AttributeError: 'Config' object has no attribute 'coluor'. Did you mean:
'color'?
>>> a.color = 'green'
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<python-input-4>", line 1, in <module>
a.color = 'green'
^^^^^^^
File "<string>", line 15, in __setattr__
dataclasses.FrozenInstanceError: cannot assign to field 'color'
>>> a.color
'purple'
>>>
--
Static tumblelog generator: https://github.com/john-bokma/tumblelog/
Available as Python or Perl. Example tumblelog: https://plurrrr.com/
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