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Subnotebook?

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  Subnotebook? Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> - 2025-02-07 19:43 +0000
    Re: Subnotebook? candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-02-07 20:00 +0000
    Re: Subnotebook? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-02-10 08:35 +0100
      Re: Subnotebook? R Daneel Olivaw <Danny@hyperspace.vogon.gov> - 2025-02-10 09:54 +0100
        Re: Subnotebook? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-02-10 10:40 +0100
        Re: Subnotebook? scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2025-02-10 23:13 +0000
      Re: Subnotebook? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-02-10 09:59 +0000
        Re: Subnotebook? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-02-10 12:24 +0100
        Re: Subnotebook? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2025-03-25 09:17 -0400
      Re: Subnotebook? Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2025-02-11 13:53 +0000
        Re: Subnotebook? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-02-11 17:49 +0100
        Re: Subnotebook? Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> - 2025-02-12 13:29 +0000
      Re: Subnotebook? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-02-11 15:20 +0100
        Re: Subnotebook? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-02-11 17:51 +0100
        Re: Subnotebook? Harold Stevens <wookie@aspen.localdomain> - 2025-02-11 16:47 -0600
    Re: Subnotebook? Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2025-03-24 22:16 -0400

#3756 — Subnotebook?

Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.

Thanks.
-- 
Carl Fink                                                  carl@finknetwork.com 
https://reasonablyliterate.com                           https://nitpicking.com 
If you want to make a point, somebody will take the point and stab you with it. 
	-Kenne Estes

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#3757

Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> wrote at 19:43 this Friday (GMT):
> Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
> Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
> smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.
>
> Thanks.


https://www.tindie.com/products/unkyulee/micro-journal-rev2-mother-of-twins/
-- 
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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#3758

On 07/02/2025 20:43, Carl Fink wrote:
> Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
> Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
> smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.
> 

I've never found much point in pre-installed Linux systems - they never 
have the distro or setup I want.  But that might be just me.  So I tend 
to get the hardware I want, then install the Linux I want, ignoring the 
"pre-installed" Windows.

Generally, most hardware works out of the box with a fairly modern 
distro (vastly more than with Windows), but there are some things to 
watch out for if you get a very new design.  The most common issue, I 
think, is new laptops or notebooks with Wifi chips that are not 
supported by the kernel versions that come as standard with a mainstream 
distro like Mint or Ubuntu.  That means upgrading the kernel, which can 
be a pain without a working network - and these machines often don't 
have Ethernet.  So make sure you have a USB C docking station or 
Ethernet adaptor handy for putting it all together.

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#3759

David Brown wrote:
> On 07/02/2025 20:43, Carl Fink wrote:
>> Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
>> Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
>> smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.
>>
> 
> I've never found much point in pre-installed Linux systems - they never 
> have the distro or setup I want.  But that might be just me.  So I tend 
> to get the hardware I want, then install the Linux I want, ignoring the 
> "pre-installed" Windows.
> 
> Generally, most hardware works out of the box with a fairly modern 
> distro (vastly more than with Windows), but there are some things to 
> watch out for if you get a very new design.  The most common issue, I 
> think, is new laptops or notebooks with Wifi chips that are not 
> supported by the kernel versions that come as standard with a mainstream 
> distro like Mint or Ubuntu.  That means upgrading the kernel, which can 
> be a pain without a working network - and these machines often don't 
> have Ethernet.  So make sure you have a USB C docking station or 
> Ethernet adaptor handy for putting it all together.
> 
> 

Occasionally you can get something with a version of DOS as an operating 
system, but you still have the problem of maybe-incompatible-hardware.

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#3760

On 10/02/2025 09:54, R Daneel Olivaw wrote:
> David Brown wrote:
>> On 07/02/2025 20:43, Carl Fink wrote:
>>> Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
>>> Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
>>> smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.
>>>
>>
>> I've never found much point in pre-installed Linux systems - they 
>> never have the distro or setup I want.  But that might be just me.  So 
>> I tend to get the hardware I want, then install the Linux I want, 
>> ignoring the "pre-installed" Windows.
>>
>> Generally, most hardware works out of the box with a fairly modern 
>> distro (vastly more than with Windows), but there are some things to 
>> watch out for if you get a very new design.  The most common issue, I 
>> think, is new laptops or notebooks with Wifi chips that are not 
>> supported by the kernel versions that come as standard with a 
>> mainstream distro like Mint or Ubuntu.  That means upgrading the 
>> kernel, which can be a pain without a working network - and these 
>> machines often don't have Ethernet.  So make sure you have a USB C 
>> docking station or Ethernet adaptor handy for putting it all together.
>>
>>
> 
> Occasionally you can get something with a version of DOS as an operating 
> system, but you still have the problem of maybe-incompatible-hardware.

I haven't seen that on notebooks or laptops, but I've seen FreeDOS 
advertised on some desktops or mini PCs.  You can interpret that as 
meaning no Windows and no commitment to checking support for Linux, but 
where they don't want to market systems without claiming at least /some/ 
OS support.  You frequently see it on systems that don't have any SSD or 
disk, or even any ram - barebones machines.  So clearly they don't have 
FreeDOS installed, just a vague suggestion that it will work, safe in 
the knowledge that no one will ever test it.  (I've nothing against 
FreeDOS, but it's typical use is on virtual machines of some kind, not 
real hardware.  And I've nothing against barebones either - I buy most 
Linux desktop or server systems as barebones.)

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#3763

In article <voceru$33tu9$1@paganini.bofh.team>,
R Daneel Olivaw  <Danny@hyperspace.vogon.gov> wrote:
>Occasionally you can get something with a version of DOS as an operating 
>system, but you still have the problem of maybe-incompatible-hardware.

Framework can ship hardware with no OS at all:

https://frame.work/

Look for the "DIY edition" hardware...some assembly required, but it all
comes together with just the screwdriver bundled with the computer.

-- 
  _/_
 / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/         Top-posting!
 \_^_/                            >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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#3761

On 2025-02-10, David Brown wrote:

> On 07/02/2025 20:43, Carl Fink wrote:
>> Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
>> Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
>> smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.
[...]
> Generally, most hardware works out of the box with a fairly modern
> distro (vastly more than with Windows), but there are some things to
> watch out for if you get a very new design.  The most common issue, I
> think, is new laptops or notebooks with Wifi chips that are not
> supported by the kernel versions that come as standard with a
> mainstream distro like Mint or Ubuntu.  That means upgrading the
> kernel, which can be a pain without a working network - and these
> machines often don't have Ethernet.  So make sure you have a USB C
> docking station or Ethernet adaptor handy for putting it all together.

IMHO wifi chips are one of the major things to check out when comparing
or buying, because at least some brands or models of NICs will mean
networking performance will always be bad.

In my experience, this means avoiding anything that has a Broadcom WLAN
NIC. I've had enough fighting with drivers and firmware that it's not
worth a try to me anymore. (See also [1]. I think someone else reported
somewhere that Broadcom told them they had a defective card when faced
with this or a similar issue, but I was able to test two different NICs
with the same outcomes, which makes it more likely that Broadcom is to
blame here...)

Personally, I'd go with something that includes Atheros or can be easily
upgraded to have Atheros (no list of allowed internal expansion cards,
PCMCIA, fast USB?). No idea how out-of-the-box Atheros will work with
recent kernels and NICs, though.


(Do take note, though, that part of what I'm saying here is that it's
not just having full kernel support, as it's possible performance is
just... [censored] even despite the kernel having everything in place.)

[1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=541080

-- 
Nuno Silva

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#3762

On 10/02/2025 10:59, Nuno Silva wrote:
> On 2025-02-10, David Brown wrote:
> 
>> On 07/02/2025 20:43, Carl Fink wrote:
>>> Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
>>> Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
>>> smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.
> [...]
>> Generally, most hardware works out of the box with a fairly modern
>> distro (vastly more than with Windows), but there are some things to
>> watch out for if you get a very new design.  The most common issue, I
>> think, is new laptops or notebooks with Wifi chips that are not
>> supported by the kernel versions that come as standard with a
>> mainstream distro like Mint or Ubuntu.  That means upgrading the
>> kernel, which can be a pain without a working network - and these
>> machines often don't have Ethernet.  So make sure you have a USB C
>> docking station or Ethernet adaptor handy for putting it all together.
> 
> IMHO wifi chips are one of the major things to check out when comparing
> or buying, because at least some brands or models of NICs will mean
> networking performance will always be bad.

Yes - although I don't know specifics about the brands.

A challenge is that often notebook and laptop suppliers are vague on the 
type of Wifi hardware they have - they tell you a bit about the 
capabilities, but not the chipsets, because they might change these 
depending on what they can get from their own suppliers.  For bigger 
laptops, the Wifi module will often be in a short M2 slot and can 
actually be replaced, but that won't be so likely on a notebook.

> 
> In my experience, this means avoiding anything that has a Broadcom WLAN
> NIC. I've had enough fighting with drivers and firmware that it's not
> worth a try to me anymore. (See also [1]. I think someone else reported
> somewhere that Broadcom told them they had a defective card when faced
> with this or a similar issue, but I was able to test two different NICs
> with the same outcomes, which makes it more likely that Broadcom is to
> blame here...)
> 
> Personally, I'd go with something that includes Atheros or can be easily
> upgraded to have Atheros (no list of allowed internal expansion cards,
> PCMCIA, fast USB?). No idea how out-of-the-box Atheros will work with
> recent kernels and NICs, though.
> 
> 
> (Do take note, though, that part of what I'm saying here is that it's
> not just having full kernel support, as it's possible performance is
> just... [censored] even despite the kernel having everything in place.)
> 
> [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=541080
> 

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#3771

Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> writes:

> On 2025-02-10, David Brown wrote:
>
>> On 07/02/2025 20:43, Carl Fink wrote:
>>> Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
>>> Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
>>> smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.
> [...]
>> Generally, most hardware works out of the box with a fairly modern
>> distro (vastly more than with Windows), but there are some things to
>> watch out for if you get a very new design.  The most common issue, I
>> think, is new laptops or notebooks with Wifi chips that are not
>> supported by the kernel versions that come as standard with a
>> mainstream distro like Mint or Ubuntu.  That means upgrading the
>> kernel, which can be a pain without a working network - and these
>> machines often don't have Ethernet.  So make sure you have a USB C
>> docking station or Ethernet adaptor handy for putting it all together.
>
> IMHO wifi chips are one of the major things to check out when comparing
> or buying, because at least some brands or models of NICs will mean
> networking performance will always be bad.
>
> In my experience, this means avoiding anything that has a Broadcom WLAN
> NIC. I've had enough fighting with drivers and firmware that it's not
> worth a try to me anymore. (See also [1]. I think someone else reported
> somewhere that Broadcom told them they had a defective card when faced
> with this or a similar issue, but I was able to test two different NICs
> with the same outcomes, which makes it more likely that Broadcom is to
> blame here...)

Raspberry Pi OS works quite nicely with Broadcom wifi. :-)

I haven't actually looked to see what's out there, but are there any
subnotebooks based on an RPi 5? That could make for a very nice little
computer.

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#3764

David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> On 07/02/2025 20:43, Carl Fink wrote:
> > Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
> > Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
> > smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.
> > 
> 
> I've never found much point in pre-installed Linux systems - they never 
> have the distro or setup I want.  But that might be just me.  So I tend 
> to get the hardware I want, then install the Linux I want, ignoring the 
> "pre-installed" Windows.
> 
> Generally, most hardware works out of the box with a fairly modern 
> distro (vastly more than with Windows), but there are some things to 
> watch out for if you get a very new design.  The most common issue, I 
> think, is new laptops or notebooks with Wifi chips that are not 
> supported by the kernel versions that come as standard with a mainstream 
> distro like Mint or Ubuntu.  That means upgrading the kernel, which can 
> be a pain without a working network - and these machines often don't 
> have Ethernet.  So make sure you have a USB C docking station or 
> Ethernet adaptor handy for putting it all together.

There are a couple of troubles:

1.  Peripheral components that don't have Linux drivers.  Webcams, SD
readers, pens/touchscreens, fingerprint readers.  Usually because the vendor
went to the bargain barrel and found some obscure chip.  Nowadays a lot of
thing stuff is USB which tends to avoid the problem if they use standard USB
device classes, but sometimes they're 'special'.

2.  A new breaking change for hardware, eg Intel introduces a new standard
for doing audio, and the FOSS drivers haven't caught up.  Often Intel is
good at writing Linux drivers themselves, but that doesn't mean they have
filtered down to the distro you want to use, especially if it means more
non-kernel work (eg somebody needs to write a new subsystem to do software
DSP or whatever).


A strategy is to buy a laptop that is available with pre-installed Linux
(either directly or the Windows version of the same), because you know there
at least extant drivers for all the hardware.  Typically those drivers will
get upstreamed and then filter down to distros, so after maybe a year you
can pick up a distro and everything will work.  You may need to use the
vendor's Linux distro for the first year until all of those bumps have been
sorted out.

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about buying any random thing and
running Linux on it, but I'd be prepared in case the pen or the fingerprint
reader didn't work.  I have been caught out by breaking changes with (audio,
networking) before though.

Theo

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#3766

On 11/02/2025 14:53, Theo wrote:
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>> On 07/02/2025 20:43, Carl Fink wrote:
>>> Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
>>> Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
>>> smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.
>>>
>>
>> I've never found much point in pre-installed Linux systems - they never
>> have the distro or setup I want.  But that might be just me.  So I tend
>> to get the hardware I want, then install the Linux I want, ignoring the
>> "pre-installed" Windows.
>>
>> Generally, most hardware works out of the box with a fairly modern
>> distro (vastly more than with Windows), but there are some things to
>> watch out for if you get a very new design.  The most common issue, I
>> think, is new laptops or notebooks with Wifi chips that are not
>> supported by the kernel versions that come as standard with a mainstream
>> distro like Mint or Ubuntu.  That means upgrading the kernel, which can
>> be a pain without a working network - and these machines often don't
>> have Ethernet.  So make sure you have a USB C docking station or
>> Ethernet adaptor handy for putting it all together.
> 
> There are a couple of troubles:
> 
> 1.  Peripheral components that don't have Linux drivers.  Webcams, SD
> readers, pens/touchscreens, fingerprint readers.  Usually because the vendor
> went to the bargain barrel and found some obscure chip.  Nowadays a lot of
> thing stuff is USB which tends to avoid the problem if they use standard USB
> device classes, but sometimes they're 'special'.

I haven't tried fingerprint readers, but the rest are almost always USB, 
and almost always work out of the box.  Still, no guarantees.

> 
> 2.  A new breaking change for hardware, eg Intel introduces a new standard
> for doing audio, and the FOSS drivers haven't caught up.  Often Intel is
> good at writing Linux drivers themselves, but that doesn't mean they have
> filtered down to the distro you want to use, especially if it means more
> non-kernel work (eg somebody needs to write a new subsystem to do software
> DSP or whatever).
> 

That is also rare now, at least if you are willing to update to a recent 
kernel and you are happy with non-free stuff.  Not everyone is happy 
with those requirements, however - that's up to the OP to decide.  And 
as I noted in an earlier post, if the problem is with the Wifi module 
and you don't have Ethernet, it can be quite inconvenient.

> 
> A strategy is to buy a laptop that is available with pre-installed Linux
> (either directly or the Windows version of the same), because you know there
> at least extant drivers for all the hardware.  Typically those drivers will
> get upstreamed and then filter down to distros, so after maybe a year you
> can pick up a distro and everything will work.  You may need to use the
> vendor's Linux distro for the first year until all of those bumps have been
> sorted out.

Sure - if you can find such a model, and it suits your needs for the 
hardware.

You can also aim for slightly older models, which are also often cheaper 
(even when new), as that reduces your risks.  Most of the laptops I have 
had through the years are hand-me-downs from the sales folk - when their 
machines are a few years old, the accumulated junk from Windows makes 
them slow.  I wipe them and put on Linux, and the result is faster than 
it ever was before (especially if I can upgrade the memory, which is 
always a worthwhile investment if the hardware supports it).

> 
> Personally I wouldn't worry too much about buying any random thing and
> running Linux on it, but I'd be prepared in case the pen or the fingerprint
> reader didn't work.  I have been caught out by breaking changes with (audio,
> networking) before though.
> 

It certainly happens sometimes.

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#3769

On 2025-02-11, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> A strategy is to buy a laptop that is available with pre-installed Linux
> (either directly or the Windows version of the same), because you know there
> at least extant drivers for all the hardware.

Exactly.

I've been around this block a few times. I have an ASUS laptop in my
backpack that I installed Ubuntu on a couple of years ago, but I want
something more portable, something I can slap in a shoulder bag and set up
on an airplane tray table. (The ASUS is too big to be stable on a tray
table.) Like someone else said in this thread, I don't feel like spending
hours struggling because the sound chip (or functionality on a new mobile
chipset) isn't supported out of the box) if I don't have to.

Thanks, all.
-- 
Carl Fink                                                  carl@finknetwork.com 
https://reasonablyliterate.com                           https://nitpicking.com 
If you want to make a point, somebody will take the point and stab you with it. 
	-Kenne Estes

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#3765

On 2025-02-10 08:35, David Brown wrote:
> On 07/02/2025 20:43, Carl Fink wrote:
>> Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
>> Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
>> smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.
>>
> 
> I've never found much point in pre-installed Linux systems - they never 
> have the distro or setup I want.  But that might be just me.  So I tend 
> to get the hardware I want, then install the Linux I want, ignoring the 
> "pre-installed" Windows.

The point is that the machine has been tested with some Linux, although 
it is feasible they use some binary blob to support something, or that 
something only works on certain distro.


> Generally, most hardware works out of the box with a fairly modern 
> distro (vastly more than with Windows), but there are some things to 
> watch out for if you get a very new design.  The most common issue, I 
> think, is new laptops or notebooks with Wifi chips that are not 
> supported by the kernel versions that come as standard with a mainstream 
> distro like Mint or Ubuntu.  That means upgrading the kernel, which can 
> be a pain without a working network - and these machines often don't 
> have Ethernet.  So make sure you have a USB C docking station or 
> Ethernet adaptor handy for putting it all together.

Which is why I insist that laptops must have Ethernet.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#3767

On 11/02/2025 15:20, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2025-02-10 08:35, David Brown wrote:
>> On 07/02/2025 20:43, Carl Fink wrote:
>>> Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
>>> Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
>>> smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.
>>>
>>
>> I've never found much point in pre-installed Linux systems - they 
>> never have the distro or setup I want.  But that might be just me.  So 
>> I tend to get the hardware I want, then install the Linux I want, 
>> ignoring the "pre-installed" Windows.
> 
> The point is that the machine has been tested with some Linux, although 
> it is feasible they use some binary blob to support something, or that 
> something only works on certain distro.
> 
> 
>> Generally, most hardware works out of the box with a fairly modern 
>> distro (vastly more than with Windows), but there are some things to 
>> watch out for if you get a very new design.  The most common issue, I 
>> think, is new laptops or notebooks with Wifi chips that are not 
>> supported by the kernel versions that come as standard with a 
>> mainstream distro like Mint or Ubuntu.  That means upgrading the 
>> kernel, which can be a pain without a working network - and these 
>> machines often don't have Ethernet.  So make sure you have a USB C 
>> docking station or Ethernet adaptor handy for putting it all together.
> 
> Which is why I insist that laptops must have Ethernet.
> 

I certainly prefer Ethernet on laptops, but newer and smaller ones 
frequently don't have Ethernet.  A USB C Ethernet adaptor (or hub with 
Ethernet) costs very little, and I've never seen one that does not work 
immediately out of the box with Linux.

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#3768

In <ju2s7lxok5.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> Carlos E.R.:

[Snip...]

> Which is why I insist that laptops must have Ethernet.

+1

It's why I ask for RJ45 jacks on my ISP's WiFi routers, too.

In some scenarios, wired ethernet is not only the only option, it's
the more reliable and faster option than wireless, from gitgo.

-- 
Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
Really, it's (wyrd) at att, dotted with net. * DO NOT SPAM IT. *
I toss GoogleGroup (http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/).

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#3770

On 2/7/25 2:43 PM, Carl Fink wrote:
> Anyone have a recommendation for a Linux-installed, or second-best
> Linux-compatible subnotebook? I'm defining a subnote as having a 10" or
> smaller screen, and I'm looking to buy new, not refurb or used.
> 
> Thanks.


artix linux

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