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How can I contact the administrator?

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  How can I contact the administrator? wong.jim1980@gmail.com - 2018-08-24 23:03 -0700
    Re: How can I contact the administrator? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-25 08:07 +0100
      Re: How can I contact the administrator? wong.jim1980@gmail.com - 2018-08-25 00:14 -0700
        Re: How can I contact the administrator? Piergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> - 2018-08-25 11:13 +0200
          Re: How can I contact the administrator? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-25 10:35 +0100
            Re: How can I contact the administrator? Piergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> - 2018-08-25 11:58 +0200
              Re: How can I contact the administrator? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-25 11:21 +0100
                Re: How can I contact the administrator? Piergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> - 2018-08-25 12:35 +0200
                  Re: How can I contact the administrator? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-25 11:47 +0100
                    Re: How can I contact the administrator? Piergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> - 2018-08-25 12:55 +0200
                      Re: How can I contact the administrator? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-25 12:13 +0100
                        Re: How can I contact the administrator? wong.jim1980@gmail.com - 2018-08-25 08:52 -0700
                          Re: How can I contact the administrator? Piergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> - 2018-08-25 18:11 +0200
                          Re: How can I contact the administrator? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-25 19:49 +0100
                            Re: How can I contact the administrator? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2018-08-31 11:18 -0400
                              Re: How can I contact the administrator? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-31 21:36 +0100
          Re: How can I contact the administrator? queequeg@trust.no1 (Queequeg) - 2018-08-30 10:07 +0000

#3333 — How can I contact the administrator?

Hello there,

I would like my old posts to be deleted from mail-archive.com. The site administrator of mail-archive.com refused to delete my old posts from the group comp.os.linux.hardware and said that he will do it only when the list administrator of comp.os.linux.hardware asks him to do it.

Is there any way of contacting the administrator of this group?

Thank you in advance.

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#3334

wong.jim1980@gmail.com writes:
> I would like my old posts to be deleted from mail-archive.com. The
> site administrator of mail-archive.com refused to delete my old posts
> from the group comp.os.linux.hardware and said that he will do it only
> when the list administrator of comp.os.linux.hardware asks him to do
> it.

There is no administrator.

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#3335

Am Samstag, 25. August 2018 09:07:40 UTC+2 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
> > I would like my old posts to be deleted from mail-archive.com. The
> > site administrator of mail-archive.com refused to delete my old posts
> > from the group comp.os.linux.hardware and said that he will do it only
> > when the list administrator of comp.os.linux.hardware asks him to do
> > it.
> 
> There is no administrator.
> 
> -- 
> https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Thank you for your answer. That means that there is no list owner or something similar?

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#3336

On 2018-08-25 09:14, wong.jim1980@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
> Thank you for your answer. That means that there is no list owner or something similar?
> 

This is usenet.
The group "comp.os.linux.hardware" is *not* a
mailing list.
There is no (easy) way to delete posts.

Each server can have a copy.
And each server can decide to keep or delete it.
Meaning that each server can distribute a copy
again and again.

Usually there is an expire time, after that the
posts are deleted, but, as written above, this
can be different from server to server or it can
be some server decide to keep it forever (archive).

One of the problems is also that there is a weak
connection between a person asking to delete a post
and the fact that this person was the original author.

In other words, how can you prove you were the author
of the posts you asked to delete?
The email address in the posts is not a valid
authentication mechanism, since anybody can put
anything there.

bye,

-- 

piergiorgio

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#3337

Piergiorgio Sartor
<piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> writes:
> One of the problems is also that there is a weak
> connection between a person asking to delete a post
> and the fact that this person was the original author.
>
> In other words, how can you prove you were the author
> of the posts you asked to delete?
> The email address in the posts is not a valid
> authentication mechanism, since anybody can put
> anything there.

If someone who isn’t wong.jim1980 forges their address, I’d be
comfortable with wong.jim1980 being able to delete the resulting posts
as easily as messages they posted themselves.

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#3338

On 2018-08-25 11:35, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> Piergiorgio Sartor
> <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> writes:
>> One of the problems is also that there is a weak
>> connection between a person asking to delete a post
>> and the fact that this person was the original author.
>>
>> In other words, how can you prove you were the author
>> of the posts you asked to delete?
>> The email address in the posts is not a valid
>> authentication mechanism, since anybody can put
>> anything there.
> 
> If someone who isn’t wong.jim1980 forges their address, I’d be
> comfortable with wong.jim1980 being able to delete the resulting posts
> as easily as messages they posted themselves.

But it could be the other way around.

Someone can claim posts made with the "wong.jim1980" address
and ask to delete them, without being "wong.jim1980".

In theory, the "administrator" should then contact the
address in the post and ask for confirmation.
I guess this would be impractical.

bye,

-- 

piergiorgio

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#3339

Piergiorgio Sartor
<piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> writes:
> On 2018-08-25 11:35, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> Piergiorgio Sartor
>> <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> writes:
>>> One of the problems is also that there is a weak
>>> connection between a person asking to delete a post
>>> and the fact that this person was the original author.
>>>
>>> In other words, how can you prove you were the author
>>> of the posts you asked to delete?
>>> The email address in the posts is not a valid
>>> authentication mechanism, since anybody can put
>>> anything there.
>> 
>> If someone who isn’t wong.jim1980 forges their address, I’d be
>> comfortable with wong.jim1980 being able to delete the resulting posts
>> as easily as messages they posted themselves.
>
> But it could be the other way around.
>
> Someone can claim posts made with the "wong.jim1980" address
> and ask to delete them, without being "wong.jim1980".
>
> In theory, the "administrator" should then contact the
> address in the post and ask for confirmation.
> I guess this would be impractical.

Nonsense, it’s perfectly practical, websites do it automatically all the
time.

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#3340

On 2018-08-25 12:21, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
[...]
>> In theory, the "administrator" should then contact the
>> address in the post and ask for confirmation.
>> I guess this would be impractical.
> 
> Nonsense, it’s perfectly practical, websites do it automatically all the
> time.

"website", not usenet server admins.

Furthermore, it could be a source of DoS.

One could collect automatically all the email
addresses and ask for removal of posts.
The server(s) will then flood email servers, and
accounts, with requests of confirmation.

Which then will lead to ignore such requests.

bye,

-- 

piergiorgio

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#3341

Piergiorgio Sartor
<piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> writes:
> On 2018-08-25 12:21, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> In theory, the "administrator" should then contact the
>>> address in the post and ask for confirmation.
>>> I guess this would be impractical.
>> 
>> Nonsense, it’s perfectly practical, websites do it automatically all
>> the time.
>
> "website", not usenet server admins.

The technique is the same whoever happens to be in control.

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#3342

On 2018-08-25 12:47, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
[...]
>> "website", not usenet server admins.
> 
> The technique is the same whoever happens to be in control.

It is not a problem of technique, it is a
problem of baseline.

As mentioned before, there is a too wide
baseline to be sure this will be effective.

Not only this, but posts in usenet could
be without a valid email address, so who
will be contacted in this case?

bye,

-- 

piergiorgio

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#3343

Piergiorgio Sartor
<piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.REMOVETHIS.de> writes:
> On 2018-08-25 12:47, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> [...]
>>> "website", not usenet server admins.
>> 
>> The technique is the same whoever happens to be in control.
>
> It is not a problem of technique, it is a
> problem of baseline.
>
> As mentioned before, there is a too wide
> baseline to be sure this will be effective.

If you mean there are many servers, the answer is simple: they can
choose (or not) to trust a single verification agency. There is plenty
of precedent for this on Usenet in the form of anti-spam measures.

> Not only this, but posts in usenet could
> be without a valid email address, so who
> will be contacted in this case?

Nobody. In this hypothetical if you don’t use a valid email address for
your postings you don’t get to delete them.

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#3344

Am Samstag, 25. August 2018 13:13:11 UTC+2 schrieb Richard Kettlewell:
> Piergiorgio Sartor
> > On 2018-08-25 12:47, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> > [...]
> >>> "website", not usenet server admins.
> >> 
> >> The technique is the same whoever happens to be in control.
> >
> > It is not a problem of technique, it is a
> > problem of baseline.
> >
> > As mentioned before, there is a too wide
> > baseline to be sure this will be effective.
> 
> If you mean there are many servers, the answer is simple: they can
> choose (or not) to trust a single verification agency. There is plenty
> of precedent for this on Usenet in the form of anti-spam measures.
> 
> > Not only this, but posts in usenet could
> > be without a valid email address, so who
> > will be contacted in this case?
> 
> Nobody. In this hypothetical if you don’t use a valid email address for
> your postings you don’t get to delete them.
> 
> -- 
> https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

So, there is no way to be forgotten in the usenet? A server administrator might refuse to delete messages upon requests and you have no chance to have your old messages deleted. You are right that I could ask to delete old posts from somebody else, as I cannot prove that I wrote the messages but, why should I do it?

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#3345

On 2018-08-25 17:52, wong.jim1980@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
> So, there is no way to be forgotten in the usenet? A server administrator might refuse to delete messages upon requests and you have no chance to have your old messages deleted. You are right that I could ask to delete old posts from somebody else, as I cannot prove that I wrote the messages but, why should I do it?

Again, you seem to miss the point here.

Let's say I downloaded all your posts, in my
local, private PC.

You will never know this, and I can re-post
everything whenever I want.
Or I can give them to whoever I like.
Or I can redistributed them by different mean.

Now, rest assured I've no posts older than
20 days, so I guess yours are long gone.

Nevertheless, someone else can have a different
approach and keep everything.
So, even if the admin of mail-archive.com will
agree to delete your post, there could be others,
you do not know who, which still have them.

It is a distributed system, everybody can have
everything, so it is quite difficult to delete
all the posts everywhere.

bye,

-- 

piergiorgio

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#3346

wong.jim1980@gmail.com writes:
> So, there is no way to be forgotten in the usenet?

Correct.

> A server administrator might refuse to delete messages upon requests
> and you have no chance to have your old messages deleted. You are
> right that I could ask to delete old posts from somebody else, as I
> cannot prove that I wrote the messages but, why should I do it?

It wasn’t designed with this in mind. You could try legal action but it
could be expensive...

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#3348

On 2018-08-25 14:49, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> wong.jim1980@gmail.com writes:
>> So, there is no way to be forgotten in the usenet?
> 
> Correct.
> 
>> A server administrator might refuse to delete messages upon requests
>> and you have no chance to have your old messages deleted. You are
>> right that I could ask to delete old posts from somebody else, as I
>> cannot prove that I wrote the messages but, why should I do it?
> 
> It wasn’t designed with this in mind. You could try legal action but it
> could be expensive...

And he would have to litigate on every country in the world known to
have an nntp server.

wong.jim1980@gmail.com: this is usenet, not gmail groups. Google does
not own this. There is no central authority, it is a distributed system,
and very ancient as far computer things go.

I may be able to cancel a message, but servers may not recognize the
command or refuse. Some might, some might not.

And as you can see, many of us do not use real mail addresses, so can we
prove we are we?


-- 
Cheers,
       Carlos E.R.

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#3349

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
> On 2018-08-25 14:49, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> wong.jim1980@gmail.com writes:
>>> So, there is no way to be forgotten in the usenet?
>> 
>> Correct.
>> 
>>> A server administrator might refuse to delete messages upon requests
>>> and you have no chance to have your old messages deleted. You are
>>> right that I could ask to delete old posts from somebody else, as I
>>> cannot prove that I wrote the messages but, why should I do it?
>> 
>> It wasn’t designed with this in mind. You could try legal action but
>> it could be expensive...
>
> And he would have to litigate on every country in the world known to
> have an nntp server.

At most the ones that didn’t expire, which is a rather smaller set.

Moreover in practice one might well be satisfied with the 99% solution
achieved by targetting only those with a large audience.

(But I still suspect it would be disproportionately expensive.)

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#3347

Piergiorgio Sartor <piergiorgio.sartor.this.should.not.be.used@nexgo.removethis.de> wrote:

> In other words, how can you prove you were the author
> of the posts you asked to delete?

Cancel-Lock.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-usefor-cancel-lock-01

-- 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lSzL1DqQn0

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