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can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port?

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  can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? Avoid9Pdf@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 07:52 +0000
    Re: can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? Johann Klammer <klammerj@NOSPAM.a1.net> - 2013-04-05 12:12 +0200
    Re: can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2013-04-05 16:39 +0300
      Re: can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? Unknown <dog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 17:50 +0000
        Re: can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2013-04-07 18:19 +0000
          Re: can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2013-04-08 01:43 -0400
            Re: can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-08 10:21 +0100
              Re: can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2013-04-08 15:19 +0100
                Re: can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-08 17:26 +0100
                Re: can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2013-04-14 15:00 +0100
                  Re: can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2013-04-14 14:25 +0000
    Re: can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? David <no@spam.please> - 2013-04-08 02:01 +0000
      Re: can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2013-04-08 01:40 -0400

#1697 — can rPi drive PC-bidirectional Par-port?

Probably the PC parallel-port has TTL specs?

So them 3.3V CMOS should drive it ?

Can the 'bidirectionality' of the Par-port be tested/confirmed
without hardware tool, ie. by software?

Since eg. IOMEGA par-port assumed at least a 4bit-wide
bidirectionality, perphaps all post-70's were bidirectional?

== TIA.

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#1699

Avoid9Pdf@gmail.com wrote:
> Probably the PC parallel-port has TTL specs?
>
> So them 3.3V CMOS should drive it ?
>
I guess that would work, if your rPi is 5V tolerant...
Resistors and z-diodes won't harm if it is not.
> Can the 'bidirectionality' of the Par-port be tested/confirmed
> without hardware tool, ie. by software?
>
I believe you can switch the parport to input and see if the bits 
flip... They will, if there's some line-noise nearby and nothing 
connected on the output. If you want to be sure you'll need to bridge at 
least two pins(I forgot which)

> Since eg. IOMEGA par-port assumed at least a 4bit-wide
> bidirectionality, perphaps all post-70's were bidirectional?
>
> == TIA.
>
4bit modes were done via status line reads using unidirectional ports... 
I believe interlnk/laplink worked that way...
Not sure what IOMEGA does...

Parallel Port Information System can test some things. (It's on ultimate 
boot cd, but gives occasional false output on my box)

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#1701

Avoid9Pdf@gmail.com writes:

> Since eg. IOMEGA par-port assumed at least a 4bit-wide
> bidirectionality, perphaps all post-70's were bidirectional?

The PC printer ports were bidirectional at least in the sense that they
had five status inputs which could be used as data inputs. Even the
control outputs could be fairly easily used as inputs which meant a
total 9 input pins.

Bidirectional ports have a control bit to set the data pins to inputs or
outputs or to be exact, eanble or disable the output drivers.

So, probably you can talk to a PC parallel port but I'd rather use
ethernet or serial (RS-232) for PC communication.

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#1724

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:39:15 +0300, Anssi Saari wrote:

> Avoid9Pdf@gmail.com writes:
> 
>> Since eg. IOMEGA par-port assumed at least a 4bit-wide
>> bidirectionality, perphaps all post-70's were bidirectional?
> 
> The PC printer ports were bidirectional at least in the sense that they
> had five status inputs which could be used as data inputs. Even the
> control outputs could be fairly easily used as inputs which meant a
> total 9 input pins.
> 
> Bidirectional ports have a control bit to set the data pins to inputs or
> outputs or to be exact, eanble or disable the output drivers.
> 
> So, probably you can talk to a PC parallel port but I'd rather use
> ethernet or serial (RS-232) for PC communication.

Yes but, I want to interface to the most primitive PCs.
Ethernet is a higher level of complication.
And IIRC RS232 won't interface with rPi's 3.3V [MOS ?], 
but par-port will.

WDYS?

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#1725

Unknown <dog@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:39:15 +0300, Anssi Saari wrote:
>
>> Avoid9Pdf@gmail.com writes:
>> 
>>> Since eg. IOMEGA par-port assumed at least a 4bit-wide
>>> bidirectionality, perphaps all post-70's were bidirectional?
>> 
>> The PC printer ports were bidirectional at least in the sense that they
>> had five status inputs which could be used as data inputs. Even the
>> control outputs could be fairly easily used as inputs which meant a
>> total 9 input pins.
>> 
>> Bidirectional ports have a control bit to set the data pins to inputs or
>> outputs or to be exact, eanble or disable the output drivers.
>> 
>> So, probably you can talk to a PC parallel port but I'd rather use
>> ethernet or serial (RS-232) for PC communication.
>
> Yes but, I want to interface to the most primitive PCs.
> Ethernet is a higher level of complication.
> And IIRC RS232 won't interface with rPi's 3.3V [MOS ?], 
> but par-port will.

You primitive PCs will likely have a 5V par port?
Maybe not so bad when it is still TTL, but when it is MOS...?

For RS232 you can put a MAX-3222 or MAX-3232 inbetween.

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#1728

On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Rob wrote:

> Unknown <dog@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:39:15 +0300, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>
>>> Avoid9Pdf@gmail.com writes:
>>>
>>>> Since eg. IOMEGA par-port assumed at least a 4bit-wide
>>>> bidirectionality, perphaps all post-70's were bidirectional?
>>>
>>> The PC printer ports were bidirectional at least in the sense that they
>>> had five status inputs which could be used as data inputs. Even the
>>> control outputs could be fairly easily used as inputs which meant a
>>> total 9 input pins.
>>>
>>> Bidirectional ports have a control bit to set the data pins to inputs or
>>> outputs or to be exact, eanble or disable the output drivers.
>>>
>>> So, probably you can talk to a PC parallel port but I'd rather use
>>> ethernet or serial (RS-232) for PC communication.
>>
>> Yes but, I want to interface to the most primitive PCs.
>> Ethernet is a higher level of complication.
>> And IIRC RS232 won't interface with rPi's 3.3V [MOS ?],
>> but par-port will.
>
> You primitive PCs will likely have a 5V par port?
> Maybe not so bad when it is still TTL, but when it is MOS...?
>
He has to define "primitive".  That Sun 3/50 someone gave me has ethernet, 
but Macs of that vintage didn't.  It was't until relatively recent times 
that ethernet becamse common (after things like ARCnet), but I think you 
can go back 20 years and while ethernet wasn't standard, there were cards 
for the ISA bus in the "IBM PC".  Of course, you'd need an operating 
system that would make use of the ethernet card.

    Michael


> For RS232 you can put a MAX-3222 or MAX-3232 inbetween.
>

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#1729

On 08/04/13 06:43, Michael Black wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Rob wrote:
>
>> Unknown <dog@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:39:15 +0300, Anssi Saari wrote:
>>>
>>>> Avoid9Pdf@gmail.com writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Since eg. IOMEGA par-port assumed at least a 4bit-wide
>>>>> bidirectionality, perphaps all post-70's were bidirectional?
>>>>
>>>> The PC printer ports were bidirectional at least in the sense that 
>>>> they
>>>> had five status inputs which could be used as data inputs. Even the
>>>> control outputs could be fairly easily used as inputs which meant a
>>>> total 9 input pins.
>>>>
>>>> Bidirectional ports have a control bit to set the data pins to 
>>>> inputs or
>>>> outputs or to be exact, eanble or disable the output drivers.
>>>>
>>>> So, probably you can talk to a PC parallel port but I'd rather use
>>>> ethernet or serial (RS-232) for PC communication.
>>>
>>> Yes but, I want to interface to the most primitive PCs.
>>> Ethernet is a higher level of complication.
>>> And IIRC RS232 won't interface with rPi's 3.3V [MOS ?],
>>> but par-port will.
>>
>> You primitive PCs will likely have a 5V par port?
>> Maybe not so bad when it is still TTL, but when it is MOS...?
>>
> He has to define "primitive".  That Sun 3/50 someone gave me has 
> ethernet, but Macs of that vintage didn't.  It was't until relatively 
> recent times that ethernet becamse common (after things like ARCnet), 
> but I think you can go back 20 years and while ethernet wasn't 
> standard, there were cards for the ISA bus in the "IBM PC".  Of 
> course, you'd need an operating system that would make use of the 
> ethernet card.
>

No. you needed some third party software.


And don't forget token ring as well..


>    Michael
>
>
>> For RS232 you can put a MAX-3222 or MAX-3232 inbetween.
>>


-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

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#1730

On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:21:29 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> And don't forget token ring as well..
> 
Please can we forget token ring?

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#1731

On 08/04/13 15:19, Rob Morley wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:21:29 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> And don't forget token ring as well..
>>
> Please can we forget token ring?
>
well..I get the point..


-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

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#1753

On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 15:19:12 +0100, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:21:29 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> And don't forget token ring as well..
>>
> Please can we forget token ring?
>
but there were *no* collisions!


-- 
It's a money /life balance.

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#1754

On 2013-04-14, Stanley Daniel de Liver <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 15:19:12 +0100, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:21:29 +0100
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> And don't forget token ring as well..
>>>
>> Please can we forget token ring?
>>
> but there were *no* collisions!

Dropped tokens instead. And devices dropping off the ring. And the scabbiest
network connectors I've ever seen. Give me ethernet collisions every time.

-- 
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 31st day of Discord in the YOLD 3179
           "Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine"

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#1726

At Fri, 05 Apr 2013 07:52:54 +0000, Avoid9Pdf rearranged some electrons to
write:

> Probably the PC parallel-port has TTL specs?
> 
> So them 3.3V CMOS should drive it ?
> 
> Can the 'bidirectionality' of the Par-port be tested/confirmed without
> hardware tool, ie. by software?
> 
> Since eg. IOMEGA par-port assumed at least a 4bit-wide bidirectionality,
> perphaps all post-70's were bidirectional?
> 
> == TIA.

Raspberry Pi I/O is not 5V tolerant.

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#1727

On Mon, 8 Apr 2013, David wrote:

> At Fri, 05 Apr 2013 07:52:54 +0000, Avoid9Pdf rearranged some electrons to
> write:
>
>> Probably the PC parallel-port has TTL specs?
>>
>> So them 3.3V CMOS should drive it ?
>>
>> Can the 'bidirectionality' of the Par-port be tested/confirmed without
>> hardware tool, ie. by software?
>>
>> Since eg. IOMEGA par-port assumed at least a 4bit-wide bidirectionality,
>> perphaps all post-70's were bidirectional?
>>
>> == TIA.
>
> Raspberry Pi I/O is not 5V tolerant.
>
Ihadn't thought of that. So no handshaking.

I was thinking 3.3v into the parallel port (assuming it did allow input) 
was a bit iffy, it would depend on the circuitry of the printer port it's 
feeding.  It might work fine, or it might be noisy, not enough absolute 
difference between high and low.

But if the Pi doesn't want more than 3.3V, then nothing can come back to 
it until someone adds some buffers between the two to deal with the 
voltage variant.  At which point, they might as well add some buffers for 
the signal lines going to the other computer.

At which point, one might as well go RS-232 and just add line drivers and 
receivers.  One thing the clueless didn't specify earlier was that the Pi 
board apparently includes a serial I/O among those "general purpose I/O 
pins", so all that's lacking is the drivers and receivers.

Or, didn't the Commodore 64 just output TTL on the serial port?  I seem to 
recall endless articles about adding RS232 drivers and receivers so the 
computer would work with real RS232.  Get one of those, and you've got 
your 40character wide terminal, only it would be +5v ttl, not 3.3V.

Either somebody has to learn to solder, or the simpler solutions of the 
ethernet port, or the intended hooking the board up to a USB keyboard 
(easily found in the garbage, though not as common as PS/2 keyboards yet) 
and to a DVI or HDMI monitor or TV set.

Or, add a string of 8 toggle switches to input data into the Pi, and a 
string of 8 LEDs to indicate output from the Pi, and write a monitor to 
make use of them.  It wsa good enough in the days of the Altair 8800 
(though the front panel hardware was extensive) or the days of the Cosmac 
Elf (the RCA 1802 CPU was set up for jamming data onto the bus, so it was 
easy to have a front panel, and no monitor in ROM needed).  But it's a 
massive step down when the PI is so fancy that it can run full blown 
Linux, and is almost as good as the 1GHz/512meg computer I was using till
this past October.

    Michael

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