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Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #689406 > unrolled thread
| Started by | CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2025-04-23 09:11 -0400 |
| Last post | 2025-04-25 01:27 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 258 — 14 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.os.linux.advocacy
Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-23 09:11 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-24 12:43 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-24 09:07 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-25 01:25 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-25 05:12 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 02:53 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-04-25 19:27 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-25 15:38 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-26 00:42 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-24 13:31 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-24 09:47 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-25 01:28 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-25 12:06 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-25 23:16 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-26 00:50 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-26 01:21 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 03:03 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-26 07:34 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 08:04 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 03:00 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-26 10:09 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-26 05:53 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-26 11:02 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-26 23:00 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 07:24 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:50 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:41 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:50 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:52 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 06:35 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 07:18 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:45 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:44 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-28 17:05 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-28 17:11 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:51 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 09:02 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 14:08 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 11:07 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:24 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-30 09:13 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:15 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-01 14:42 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-02 15:03 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 20:33 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-03 08:18 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 21:34 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 18:43 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 00:17 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 21:47 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 07:43 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 09:13 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 20:16 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-05-02 20:47 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 19:31 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 00:13 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 22:16 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 10:50 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 09:31 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-04 09:51 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 08:23 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-04 13:38 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 18:00 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-05 11:03 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-05 08:40 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-05-04 14:40 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-04 11:52 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 20:05 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 04:50 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-05-05 18:50 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 14:55 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 04:29 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-02 15:20 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 11:28 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 00:11 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 20:15 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 01:02 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 22:24 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 10:56 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-03 08:29 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 10:39 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-04 10:04 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 08:24 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 20:10 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 04:48 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-05 08:36 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 17:06 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-05 14:04 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 18:59 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-05 15:24 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 02:21 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-06 11:00 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 20:58 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-06 19:43 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-08 00:29 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-08 03:28 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-08 10:02 -0400
Linux again (was: Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome) vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-05-07 04:18 +0000
Re: Linux again (was: Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome) Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-05-07 00:56 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 07:13 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 08:04 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 20:43 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 06:54 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-05-07 17:30 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-08 07:06 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 06:53 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 06:42 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-06 11:02 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 19:36 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 04:02 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 08:16 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 21:23 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 19:45 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 02:06 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 07:37 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 18:17 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:03 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 13:52 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 22:49 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-26 22:57 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 07:33 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:51 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:02 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:47 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-04-27 09:12 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-28 01:15 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:51 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-04-28 08:37 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:48 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:49 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:45 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 06:33 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 07:31 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:53 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:51 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:33 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 08:45 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-28 17:42 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 18:51 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-29 02:26 +0000
Re: Evolution (was Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:54 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:33 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:56 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:59 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 01:06 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:27 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:14 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:53 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 14:01 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 01:05 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-26 08:15 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-26 23:03 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 06:46 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-27 07:41 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-27 14:30 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 02:51 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 08:33 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 06:45 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 08:15 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:35 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-27 14:41 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:42 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:40 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:25 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 08:49 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 18:03 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 20:01 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 16:47 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 06:15 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 09:23 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 14:21 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 11:24 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 21:11 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 17:33 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 22:14 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 19:37 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 00:25 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-30 00:30 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 18:22 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-30 01:39 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-30 08:53 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 13:54 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 13:28 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 00:09 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 21:45 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-02 15:31 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 11:41 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:15 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-30 09:07 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 21:03 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 22:56 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 19:48 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:13 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 22:51 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 03:49 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 22:49 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 19:45 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-03 05:27 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 08:18 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-04 06:58 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 08:14 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 04:41 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:11 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-29 15:26 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 08:56 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-29 16:10 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 09:48 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:10 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-30 09:05 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:24 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-05-01 17:04 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-05-01 11:01 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 19:18 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-01 23:30 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-02 16:01 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 18:47 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 23:26 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 01:09 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 03:56 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-03 05:42 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 10:45 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-04 07:02 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 08:39 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 04:44 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 06:24 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 18:20 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:01 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 23:15 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 19:55 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-03 05:32 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 08:23 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 01:06 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-03 05:36 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 04:14 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:26 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 08:48 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 19:58 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 16:46 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 06:11 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:38 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-29 00:11 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 17:20 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-29 01:27 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-29 02:52 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:29 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 08:13 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 02:57 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-04-24 18:54 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-24 20:35 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-24 14:04 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-24 17:26 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-24 21:45 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-24 21:48 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-24 14:57 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-24 21:53 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-24 14:58 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-25 01:29 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-25 01:27 +0000
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-29 02:54 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: Evolution (was Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome) |
| Message-ID | <vupf15$pu5b$14@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #689598 |
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 08:45:56 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote: > That is why a good number of evolutionists have gone on to become devout > Christians. I’m sure you can pick and choose if you look hard enough. The fundamental question the religionists don’t like to think about is: is life too complex to have arisen by itself?
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-28 12:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100utcr.ju6.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689541 |
On 2025-04-27, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 07:31:00 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > >> I think many people just have this belief that things >> should be changed, reinvented. > > It’s not just some “belief”. What happens in the Open Source world is, > somebody comes along and shows us a way that is provably better. And so, > inevitably, the old ways get abandoned in favour of the new. > > Tradition is a strong brake on this (you yourself are an obvious example), > but in a competitive environment, the new, superior way wins out, sooner > or later. Thanks to "Open Source" (I'll say free software), we still have NNTP servers, we still have command line tools, we still have new tools utilising the "unix way". We can still pipe the output of AWK through SORT and into an email program to send to someone. Tools like "jq", "dmenu", "fzf" and "pass", I could find many others, which utilise the "Unix philosophy", the so called "old ways", and are valuable in the modern day. The free software world not only creates new solutions, it keeps alive what used to work as well. In the commercial, proprietary world, that is where the "old ways" are abandoned. There is a reason that Windows has a Linux subsystem. There is a reason for Powershell. I've been around enough to see "new" solutions which are just reinventions of what had been done before. There is no static vision of where the future is going. Everyone thought "The CLI is DEAD!", and it functionally dissapeared from Windows (it never really had much back in the 90s, early 2000s), only to come back. The more things change, the more the stay the same. The idea that Tradition is a brake is wrong. Tradition often is the result of cumulative experience, knowledge, trial and error. Its what people worked out as solutions. All too often, people run into trouble because the fail to understand there is a reason that things are the way they are.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-29 02:56 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <vupf50$pu5b$15@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #689591 |
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:33:31 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > There is a reason that Windows has a Linux subsystem. There is a reason > for Powershell. These are both acts of desperation on the part of Microsoft. After decades of conditioning its users to be allergic to the command line, it now finds itself trying to do a complete 180°. The results are not pretty. > I've been around enough to see "new" solutions which are just > reinventions of what had been done before. So what? That’s no excuse for perpetuating the pile of legacy baggage that is X11.
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-29 13:59 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn1011mp7.46v.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689654 |
On 2025-04-29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:33:31 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > >> There is a reason that Windows has a Linux subsystem. There is a reason >> for Powershell. > > These are both acts of desperation on the part of Microsoft. After decades > of conditioning its users to be allergic to the command line, it now finds > itself trying to do a complete 180°. The results are not pretty. > Powershell seems OK for admin type stuff, but I'm not too familiar with it. It seemed more focused to sys admins. >> I've been around enough to see "new" solutions which are just >> reinventions of what had been done before. > > So what? That’s no excuse for perpetuating the pile of legacy baggage that > is X11. Its not an excuse for perpetuating X11. But legacy baggage accumulates, and things that are thrown out, make a return, in a new reincarnated form. Ive been involved with enough system changes, managed system changes, validated new systems, to see this pattern happen again and again. At work, I've been able to keep my site off the new fangled electronic management system they wanted to implement. It failed eventually, a massive sunk cost, and I'm glad we didn't transition. No disruption on our end. Legacy system prevails. I do want a new system still, but one which fits. The 'new shiny' didn't work, and it was obvious from the start it wouldn't, at least to a couple of us. Thats not a reason to not change. But adaptation works better than complete change.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-10 01:06 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10280ej$rmtv$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #689677 |
On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 13:59:04 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > On 2025-04-29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >> >> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:33:31 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >> >>> I've been around enough to see "new" solutions which are just >>> reinventions of what had been done before. >> >> So what? That’s no excuse for perpetuating the pile of legacy baggage >> that is X11. > > Its not an excuse for perpetuating X11. But legacy baggage accumulates, > and things that are thrown out, make a return, in a new reincarnated > form. So where do you see legacy baggage from X11 reappearing in Wayland?
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| From | RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-28 07:27 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100ubfl.cuiu.ronb02NOSPAM@3020m.home> |
| In reply to | #689530 |
On 2025-04-27, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: > On 2025-04-27, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote: >> On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> On 2025-04-26, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>> On 2025-04-25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 12:06:53 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I understand the problems with X11, and supporting legacy, but you can't >>>>>>> just throw out decades of work and break it because its hard. >>>>>> >>>>>> Somebody has to come along and offer to do the work. If nobody does, then >>>>>> yes, the existing developers are quite justified in saying “that’s not >>>>>> worth it, let’s just drop it”. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But they ARE doing work. They're creating new stuff that lack some >>>>> degree of compatibility with the old. This is the problem, devs work on >>>>> what the want to work on, not what people need. >>>>> >>>>> In no one was willing to work on free software, that would make sense, >>>>> but people are working on reinventing the wheel again and again. We >>>>> also had Mir. TWO projects. Duplication. >>>> >>>> Kind of like Ubuntu trying to force Unity on everyone because "they knew >>>> better." Or Gnome making huge changes in Gnome 3 because they knew better >>>> than the user what the *should* want. That's basically why Linux Mint took >>>> off. Mate and Cinnamon were what a LOT of users wanted, not Gnome 3 or >>>> Unity. >>>> >>> What I was referring to problem, isn't limited to software. It seems to >>> be a Millenial trait in general, or of younger people. That is, they >>> want to work on what they want to work on, rather than what needs to be >>> done. People seeing their work as an opportunity to do what they think >>> is best, rather than what *other* people need. They think that "work" >>> is just a way they can actualise themselves. Companies bend towards >>> this, catering to their needs, rather than the companies, or the >>> customers needs. We, the users, need our software to work. If you want >>> to work on it, your role is to stop our stuff breaking. >>> >>> Linus is "older school". "Don't break userspace" is something hes >>> stated. >>> >>> As I said, I don't object to modernising the graphical system, but you >>> have to accept, have to accomodate the Unix Legacy. If you don't want >>> that Legacy, work on a new OS, where you *can* just architecture >>> everything as you wish. >> >> Can't argue with you here. I guess I misunderstood your point. Sorry. I tend >> to read too quickly sometimes. >> > > Thats cool. I think many people just have this belief that things > should be changed, reinvented. I used to believe that too. When I was > young, naive, I thought that "We've always done it this way" was a poor > reason to NOT change a system. Now that I'm more experienced, and been > through many changes, implemented many, I'm more skeptical about > changing things which appear on the surface to not be optimal, > especially when you think you know better. > > There are other things to consider than simply "is this new method more > efficient". On paper, it can appear better, but the world doesn't work > according to 'on paper'. Its messy, and changing crappy legacy X to > shiny new Y should be done with real, real care, and often, not at all. I agree with your points here. There are too many changes for "change sake." I think a lot of the change implemented are by those who don't have much actual experience, they just have authority to demand the change. I'm sure it's not always that way, but it seems it is too often that way. -- Jesus sat with sinners: He didn't sin with them. Know the difference.
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-28 12:14 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100us98.ju6.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689578 |
On 2025-04-28, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote: > On 2025-04-27, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: >> On 2025-04-27, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote: >>> On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> On 2025-04-26, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> On 2025-04-25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>> On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 12:06:53 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I understand the problems with X11, and supporting legacy, but you can't >>>>>>>> just throw out decades of work and break it because its hard. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Somebody has to come along and offer to do the work. If nobody does, then >>>>>>> yes, the existing developers are quite justified in saying “that’s not >>>>>>> worth it, let’s just drop it”. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> But they ARE doing work. They're creating new stuff that lack some >>>>>> degree of compatibility with the old. This is the problem, devs work on >>>>>> what the want to work on, not what people need. >>>>>> >>>>>> In no one was willing to work on free software, that would make sense, >>>>>> but people are working on reinventing the wheel again and again. We >>>>>> also had Mir. TWO projects. Duplication. >>>>> >>>>> Kind of like Ubuntu trying to force Unity on everyone because "they knew >>>>> better." Or Gnome making huge changes in Gnome 3 because they knew better >>>>> than the user what the *should* want. That's basically why Linux Mint took >>>>> off. Mate and Cinnamon were what a LOT of users wanted, not Gnome 3 or >>>>> Unity. >>>>> >>>> What I was referring to problem, isn't limited to software. It seems to >>>> be a Millenial trait in general, or of younger people. That is, they >>>> want to work on what they want to work on, rather than what needs to be >>>> done. People seeing their work as an opportunity to do what they think >>>> is best, rather than what *other* people need. They think that "work" >>>> is just a way they can actualise themselves. Companies bend towards >>>> this, catering to their needs, rather than the companies, or the >>>> customers needs. We, the users, need our software to work. If you want >>>> to work on it, your role is to stop our stuff breaking. >>>> >>>> Linus is "older school". "Don't break userspace" is something hes >>>> stated. >>>> >>>> As I said, I don't object to modernising the graphical system, but you >>>> have to accept, have to accomodate the Unix Legacy. If you don't want >>>> that Legacy, work on a new OS, where you *can* just architecture >>>> everything as you wish. >>> >>> Can't argue with you here. I guess I misunderstood your point. Sorry. I tend >>> to read too quickly sometimes. >>> >> >> Thats cool. I think many people just have this belief that things >> should be changed, reinvented. I used to believe that too. When I was >> young, naive, I thought that "We've always done it this way" was a poor >> reason to NOT change a system. Now that I'm more experienced, and been >> through many changes, implemented many, I'm more skeptical about >> changing things which appear on the surface to not be optimal, >> especially when you think you know better. >> >> There are other things to consider than simply "is this new method more >> efficient". On paper, it can appear better, but the world doesn't work >> according to 'on paper'. Its messy, and changing crappy legacy X to >> shiny new Y should be done with real, real care, and often, not at all. > > I agree with your points here. There are too many changes for "change sake." > I think a lot of the change implemented are by those who don't have much > actual experience, they just have authority to demand the change. I'm sure > it's not always that way, but it seems it is too often that way. > Experience leads people to understand why things that are messy, complicated, subobtimal, ineffience, not "elegant", are the way they are. It also makes you more tolerant of such things, because behind all that legacy cruft, is wisdom and technique. Be careful to discard what you think is useless. It could have been a solution to a problem you are now trying to create yet another solution for.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-29 02:53 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <vupeuc$pu5b$13@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #689587 |
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:14:33 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > Be careful to discard what you think is useless. In the Open Source world, all the old stuff remains preserved in the commit history of the source repos for all time to come. Nothing ever really gets thrown away, so yes, it can always be resurrected if need be. With modern programming tools, no editing change is irreversible.
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-29 14:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn1011mtq.46v.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689652 |
On 2025-04-29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:14:33 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > >> Be careful to discard what you think is useless. > > In the Open Source world, all the old stuff remains preserved in the > commit history of the source repos for all time to come. Nothing ever > really gets thrown away, so yes, it can always be resurrected if need be. > > With modern programming tools, no editing change is irreversible. I meant more in a general sense, not specifically a code snippet.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-06-10 01:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10280cu$rmtv$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #689678 |
On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 14:01:30 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > On 2025-04-29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >> >> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:14:33 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >> >>> Be careful to discard what you think is useless. >> >> In the Open Source world, all the old stuff remains preserved in the >> commit history of the source repos for all time to come. Nothing ever >> really gets thrown away, so yes, it can always be resurrected if need be. >> >> With modern programming tools, no editing change is irreversible. > > I meant more in a general sense, not specifically a code snippet. Not just “snippets”, the entire old code is there. Also old documentation, if they chose to include that as well. Nothing gets lost.
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| From | CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-26 08:15 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <V74PP.2709395$OrR5.911761@fx18.iad> |
| In reply to | #689485 |
On 4/25/25 23:00, RonB wrote: > On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: >> On 2025-04-25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >>> On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 12:06:53 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >>> >>>> I understand the problems with X11, and supporting legacy, but you can't >>>> just throw out decades of work and break it because its hard. >>> >>> Somebody has to come along and offer to do the work. If nobody does, then >>> yes, the existing developers are quite justified in saying “that’s not >>> worth it, let’s just drop it”. >> >> >> But they ARE doing work. They're creating new stuff that lack some >> degree of compatibility with the old. This is the problem, devs work on >> what the want to work on, not what people need. >> >> In no one was willing to work on free software, that would make sense, >> but people are working on reinventing the wheel again and again. We >> also had Mir. TWO projects. Duplication. > > Kind of like Ubuntu trying to force Unity on everyone because "they knew > better." Or Gnome making huge changes in Gnome 3 because they knew better > than the user what the *should* want. That's basically why Linux Mint took > off. Mate and Cinnamon were what a LOT of users wanted, not Gnome 3 or > Unity. In the end, a lot of people ended up liking Gnome 3's way of doing things, and it is at the core of a few desktop environments. As for Unity and Mir, I liked the interface of Unity enough to seek it out in Ubuntu's iteration of Gnome, and Mir was a step in the right direction. Had Wayland not already have been in development, I doubt people would have had such a negative opinion of Canonical's decision to move away from X11. -- God be with you, CrudeSausage LibreOffice supporter John 14:6
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-26 23:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <vujont$3cei9$5@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #689496 |
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 08:15:48 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote: > Had Wayland not already have been in development, I doubt people would > have had such a negative opinion of Canonical's decision to move away > from X11. Are you trying to say that Unity would have been preferable to Wayland?
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| From | RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-27 06:46 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100rkm8.bh86.ronb02NOSPAM@3020m.home> |
| In reply to | #689512 |
On 2025-04-26, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 08:15:48 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote: > >> Had Wayland not already have been in development, I doubt people would >> have had such a negative opinion of Canonical's decision to move away >> from X11. > > Are you trying to say that Unity would have been preferable to Wayland? No, I think he's saying it would have worked better with Wayland. But that's speculation. -- Jesus sat with sinners: He didn't sin with them. Know the difference.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-27 07:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <m765diFeg2dU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #689527 |
On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 06:46:30 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote: > No, I think he's saying it would have worked better with Wayland. But > that's speculation. https://ubuntuunity.org/posts/ubuntu-unity-2404-released/ Technical debt... The decision to use the Nux toolkit rather than Gtk 15 years ago is still a stumbling block for a Wayland migration.
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| From | CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-27 14:30 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <JIuPP.2348521$FVcd.1102734@fx10.iad> |
| In reply to | #689512 |
On 4/26/25 19:03, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 08:15:48 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote: > >> Had Wayland not already have been in development, I doubt people would >> have had such a negative opinion of Canonical's decision to move away >> from X11. > > Are you trying to say that Unity would have been preferable to Wayland? Unity was their Gnome 3-like interface. Mir was what they unveiled to compete with Wayland. As for whether it would have been preferable, probably not. I imagine that it would have worked well with Unity, but not so much with other desktop environments. Canonical wouldn't have cared either. -- God be with you, CrudeSausage LibreOffice supporter John 14:6
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-28 02:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <m788q7Foo9gU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #689552 |
On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 14:30:01 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote: > Unity was their Gnome 3-like interface. Mir was what they unveiled to > compete with Wayland. As for whether it would have been preferable, > probably not. I imagine that it would have worked well with Unity, but > not so much with other desktop environments. Canonical wouldn't have > cared either. Mir was quietly shelved in favor of GNOME 3 and Mutter. Probably a wise decision. Mutter has a strange association for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNdnVVHfseA
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| From | CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-28 08:33 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <UAKPP.803837$j2D.606601@fx09.iad> |
| In reply to | #689568 |
On 2025-04-27 22:51, rbowman wrote: > On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 14:30:01 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote: > >> Unity was their Gnome 3-like interface. Mir was what they unveiled to >> compete with Wayland. As for whether it would have been preferable, >> probably not. I imagine that it would have worked well with Unity, but >> not so much with other desktop environments. Canonical wouldn't have >> cared either. > > Mir was quietly shelved in favor of GNOME 3 and Mutter. Probably a wise > decision. Mutter has a strange association for me: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNdnVVHfseA Had it not been shelved, I doubt that Ubuntu would have looked or operated any differently than it does today. Still, I appreciate the company working on technology which can benefit everyone, not just themselves. To say the least, even if Mir and Unity had turned out amazing, I doubt any other distribution would have used it or forked it. -- God be with you, CrudeSausage LibreOffice supporter John 14:6
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| From | RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-27 06:45 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100rkkh.bh86.ronb02NOSPAM@3020m.home> |
| In reply to | #689496 |
On 2025-04-26, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote: > On 4/25/25 23:00, RonB wrote: >> On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> On 2025-04-25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >>>> On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 12:06:53 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >>>> >>>>> I understand the problems with X11, and supporting legacy, but you can't >>>>> just throw out decades of work and break it because its hard. >>>> >>>> Somebody has to come along and offer to do the work. If nobody does, then >>>> yes, the existing developers are quite justified in saying “that’s not >>>> worth it, let’s just drop it”. >>> >>> >>> But they ARE doing work. They're creating new stuff that lack some >>> degree of compatibility with the old. This is the problem, devs work on >>> what the want to work on, not what people need. >>> >>> In no one was willing to work on free software, that would make sense, >>> but people are working on reinventing the wheel again and again. We >>> also had Mir. TWO projects. Duplication. >> >> Kind of like Ubuntu trying to force Unity on everyone because "they knew >> better." Or Gnome making huge changes in Gnome 3 because they knew better >> than the user what the *should* want. That's basically why Linux Mint took >> off. Mate and Cinnamon were what a LOT of users wanted, not Gnome 3 or >> Unity. > > In the end, a lot of people ended up liking Gnome 3's way of doing > things, and it is at the core of a few desktop environments. As for > Unity and Mir, I liked the interface of Unity enough to seek it out in > Ubuntu's iteration of Gnome, and Mir was a step in the right direction. > Had Wayland not already have been in development, I doubt people would > have had such a negative opinion of Canonical's decision to move away > from X11. Not me. Never liked either Unity or Gnome 3. I also don't like that customization of Gnome 3 was always an afterthought, with add-ons that broke with each release. Gnome developers seemed to have had a "take it or leave it," mindset. It's gotten a bit better over time but, still, when you ask about moving the top bar to the bottom, and ask why Gnome 3 doesn't a provide a method to do that, you get snarky responses claiming this the top position is "somehow" superior. I don't like it there, it feels "claustrophobic" to me. I always moved the Gnome 2 bar to the bottom. Add-ins are supposed to fix this, but usually they only work for such and such version and are often abandoned. As for X11 vs Wayland, not quite sure how that fits in the Gnome 3 and Unity vs Gnome 2 debate. -- Jesus sat with sinners: He didn't sin with them. Know the difference.
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-27 08:15 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100rpte.3vb.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689526 |
On 2025-04-27, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote: > On 2025-04-26, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote: >> On 4/25/25 23:00, RonB wrote: >>> On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> On 2025-04-25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 12:06:53 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I understand the problems with X11, and supporting legacy, but you can't >>>>>> just throw out decades of work and break it because its hard. >>>>> >>>>> Somebody has to come along and offer to do the work. If nobody does, then >>>>> yes, the existing developers are quite justified in saying “that’s not >>>>> worth it, let’s just drop it”. >>>> >>>> >>>> But they ARE doing work. They're creating new stuff that lack some >>>> degree of compatibility with the old. This is the problem, devs work on >>>> what the want to work on, not what people need. >>>> >>>> In no one was willing to work on free software, that would make sense, >>>> but people are working on reinventing the wheel again and again. We >>>> also had Mir. TWO projects. Duplication. >>> >>> Kind of like Ubuntu trying to force Unity on everyone because "they knew >>> better." Or Gnome making huge changes in Gnome 3 because they knew better >>> than the user what the *should* want. That's basically why Linux Mint took >>> off. Mate and Cinnamon were what a LOT of users wanted, not Gnome 3 or >>> Unity. >> >> In the end, a lot of people ended up liking Gnome 3's way of doing >> things, and it is at the core of a few desktop environments. As for >> Unity and Mir, I liked the interface of Unity enough to seek it out in >> Ubuntu's iteration of Gnome, and Mir was a step in the right direction. >> Had Wayland not already have been in development, I doubt people would >> have had such a negative opinion of Canonical's decision to move away >> from X11. > > Not me. Never liked either Unity or Gnome 3. I also don't like that > customization of Gnome 3 was always an afterthought, with add-ons that broke > with each release. Gnome developers seemed to have had a "take it or leave > it," mindset. It's gotten a bit better over time but, still, when you ask > about moving the top bar to the bottom, and ask why Gnome 3 doesn't a > provide a method to do that, you get snarky responses claiming this the top > position is "somehow" superior. I don't like it there, it feels > "claustrophobic" to me. I always moved the Gnome 2 bar to the bottom. Add-ins > are supposed to fix this, but usually they only work for such and such > version and are often abandoned. > > As for X11 vs Wayland, not quite sure how that fits in the Gnome 3 and Unity > vs Gnome 2 debate. > I just don't like "opinionated" developers. I don't care what YOU think is superior. I've determined for myself what works best for me, and its not up to you to tell my why I should change to your vision. I use FVWM. It has no preconceptions about how you should use it, is fast, stable and can introduce new features without breaking my workflow.
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| From | RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-28 07:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100ubuv.cuiu.ronb02NOSPAM@3020m.home> |
| In reply to | #689538 |
On 2025-04-27, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: > On 2025-04-27, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote: >> On 2025-04-26, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote: >>> On 4/25/25 23:00, RonB wrote: >>>> On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>> On 2025-04-25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 12:06:53 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I understand the problems with X11, and supporting legacy, but you can't >>>>>>> just throw out decades of work and break it because its hard. >>>>>> >>>>>> Somebody has to come along and offer to do the work. If nobody does, then >>>>>> yes, the existing developers are quite justified in saying “that’s not >>>>>> worth it, let’s just drop it”. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But they ARE doing work. They're creating new stuff that lack some >>>>> degree of compatibility with the old. This is the problem, devs work on >>>>> what the want to work on, not what people need. >>>>> >>>>> In no one was willing to work on free software, that would make sense, >>>>> but people are working on reinventing the wheel again and again. We >>>>> also had Mir. TWO projects. Duplication. >>>> >>>> Kind of like Ubuntu trying to force Unity on everyone because "they knew >>>> better." Or Gnome making huge changes in Gnome 3 because they knew better >>>> than the user what the *should* want. That's basically why Linux Mint took >>>> off. Mate and Cinnamon were what a LOT of users wanted, not Gnome 3 or >>>> Unity. >>> >>> In the end, a lot of people ended up liking Gnome 3's way of doing >>> things, and it is at the core of a few desktop environments. As for >>> Unity and Mir, I liked the interface of Unity enough to seek it out in >>> Ubuntu's iteration of Gnome, and Mir was a step in the right direction. >>> Had Wayland not already have been in development, I doubt people would >>> have had such a negative opinion of Canonical's decision to move away >>> from X11. >> >> Not me. Never liked either Unity or Gnome 3. I also don't like that >> customization of Gnome 3 was always an afterthought, with add-ons that broke >> with each release. Gnome developers seemed to have had a "take it or leave >> it," mindset. It's gotten a bit better over time but, still, when you ask >> about moving the top bar to the bottom, and ask why Gnome 3 doesn't a >> provide a method to do that, you get snarky responses claiming this the top >> position is "somehow" superior. I don't like it there, it feels >> "claustrophobic" to me. I always moved the Gnome 2 bar to the bottom. Add-ins >> are supposed to fix this, but usually they only work for such and such >> version and are often abandoned. >> >> As for X11 vs Wayland, not quite sure how that fits in the Gnome 3 and Unity >> vs Gnome 2 debate. >> > > I just don't like "opinionated" developers. I don't care what YOU think > is superior. I've determined for myself what works best for me, and its > not up to you to tell my why I should change to your vision. > > I use FVWM. It has no preconceptions about how you should use it, is > fast, stable and can introduce new features without breaking my > workflow. I've got enough Irish in me that, if you try to push me one way, I'll go the other. I like to make my own choices. -- Jesus sat with sinners: He didn't sin with them. Know the difference.
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