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Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #689406 > unrolled thread
| Started by | CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2025-04-23 09:11 -0400 |
| Last post | 2025-04-25 01:27 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 258 — 14 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.os.linux.advocacy
Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-23 09:11 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-24 12:43 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-24 09:07 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-25 01:25 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-25 05:12 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 02:53 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-04-25 19:27 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-25 15:38 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-26 00:42 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-24 13:31 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-24 09:47 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-25 01:28 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-25 12:06 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-25 23:16 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-26 00:50 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-26 01:21 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 03:03 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-26 07:34 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 08:04 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 03:00 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-26 10:09 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-26 05:53 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-26 11:02 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-26 23:00 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 07:24 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:50 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:41 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:50 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:52 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 06:35 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 07:18 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:45 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:44 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-28 17:05 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-28 17:11 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:51 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 09:02 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 14:08 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 11:07 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:24 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-30 09:13 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:15 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-01 14:42 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-02 15:03 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 20:33 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-03 08:18 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 21:34 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 18:43 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 00:17 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 21:47 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 07:43 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 09:13 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 20:16 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-05-02 20:47 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 19:31 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 00:13 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 22:16 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 10:50 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 09:31 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-04 09:51 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 08:23 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-04 13:38 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 18:00 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-05 11:03 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-05 08:40 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-05-04 14:40 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-04 11:52 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 20:05 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 04:50 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-05-05 18:50 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 14:55 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 04:29 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-02 15:20 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 11:28 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 00:11 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 20:15 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 01:02 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 22:24 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 10:56 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-03 08:29 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 10:39 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-04 10:04 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 08:24 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 20:10 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 04:48 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-05 08:36 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 17:06 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-05 14:04 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 18:59 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-05 15:24 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 02:21 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-06 11:00 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 20:58 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-06 19:43 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-08 00:29 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-08 03:28 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-08 10:02 -0400
Linux again (was: Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome) vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-05-07 04:18 +0000
Re: Linux again (was: Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome) Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-05-07 00:56 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 07:13 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 08:04 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 20:43 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 06:54 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-05-07 17:30 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-08 07:06 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 06:53 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 06:42 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-06 11:02 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 19:36 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 04:02 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 08:16 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 21:23 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 19:45 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 02:06 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 07:37 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 18:17 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:03 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 13:52 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 22:49 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-26 22:57 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 07:33 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:51 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:02 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:47 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-04-27 09:12 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-28 01:15 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:51 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-04-28 08:37 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:48 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:49 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:45 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 06:33 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 07:31 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:53 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:51 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:33 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 08:45 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-28 17:42 -0500
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 18:51 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-29 02:26 +0000
Re: Evolution (was Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:54 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:33 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:56 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:59 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 01:06 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:27 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:14 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:53 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 14:01 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 01:05 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-26 08:15 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-26 23:03 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 06:46 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-27 07:41 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-27 14:30 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 02:51 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 08:33 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 06:45 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 08:15 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:35 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-27 14:41 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:42 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:40 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:25 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 08:49 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 18:03 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 20:01 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 16:47 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 06:15 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 09:23 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 14:21 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 11:24 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 21:11 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 17:33 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 22:14 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 19:37 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 00:25 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-30 00:30 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 18:22 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-30 01:39 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-30 08:53 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 13:54 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 13:28 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 00:09 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 21:45 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-02 15:31 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 11:41 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:15 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-30 09:07 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 21:03 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 22:56 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 19:48 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:13 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 22:51 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 03:49 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 22:49 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 19:45 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-03 05:27 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 08:18 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-04 06:58 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 08:14 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 04:41 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:11 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-29 15:26 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 08:56 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-29 16:10 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 09:48 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:10 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-30 09:05 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:24 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-05-01 17:04 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-05-01 11:01 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 19:18 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-01 23:30 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-02 16:01 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 18:47 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 23:26 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 01:09 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 03:56 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-03 05:42 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 10:45 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-04 07:02 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 08:39 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 04:44 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 06:24 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 18:20 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:01 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 23:15 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 19:55 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-03 05:32 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 08:23 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 01:06 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-03 05:36 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 04:14 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:26 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 08:48 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 19:58 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 16:46 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 06:11 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:38 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-29 00:11 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 17:20 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-29 01:27 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-29 02:52 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:29 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 08:13 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 02:57 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-04-24 18:54 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-24 20:35 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-24 14:04 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-24 17:26 -0400
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-24 21:45 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-24 21:48 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-24 14:57 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-24 21:53 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-24 14:58 -0700
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-25 01:29 +0000
Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-25 01:27 +0000
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-26 10:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100pc7f.4e7.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689485 |
On 2025-04-26, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote: > On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: >> On 2025-04-25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >>> On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 12:06:53 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >>> >>>> I understand the problems with X11, and supporting legacy, but you can't >>>> just throw out decades of work and break it because its hard. >>> >>> Somebody has to come along and offer to do the work. If nobody does, then >>> yes, the existing developers are quite justified in saying “that’s not >>> worth it, let’s just drop it”. >> >> >> But they ARE doing work. They're creating new stuff that lack some >> degree of compatibility with the old. This is the problem, devs work on >> what the want to work on, not what people need. >> >> In no one was willing to work on free software, that would make sense, >> but people are working on reinventing the wheel again and again. We >> also had Mir. TWO projects. Duplication. > > Kind of like Ubuntu trying to force Unity on everyone because "they knew > better." Or Gnome making huge changes in Gnome 3 because they knew better > than the user what the *should* want. That's basically why Linux Mint took > off. Mate and Cinnamon were what a LOT of users wanted, not Gnome 3 or > Unity. > What I was referring to problem, isn't limited to software. It seems to be a Millenial trait in general, or of younger people. That is, they want to work on what they want to work on, rather than what needs to be done. People seeing their work as an opportunity to do what they think is best, rather than what *other* people need. They think that "work" is just a way they can actualise themselves. Companies bend towards this, catering to their needs, rather than the companies, or the customers needs. We, the users, need our software to work. If you want to work on it, your role is to stop our stuff breaking. Linus is "older school". "Don't break userspace" is something hes stated. As I said, I don't object to modernising the graphical system, but you have to accept, have to accomodate the Unix Legacy. If you don't want that Legacy, work on a new OS, where you *can* just architecture everything as you wish.
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| From | chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-26 05:53 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <thep0k1b5pb11jcp73kr5gjqvl45oeif77@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #689491 |
Borax Man wrote: >What I was referring to problem, isn't limited to software. It seems to >be a Millenial trait in general, or of younger people. That is, they >want to work on what they want to work on, rather than what needs to be >done. People seeing their work as an opportunity to do what they think >is best, rather than what *other* people need. They think that "work" >is just a way they can actualise themselves. Companies bend towards >this, catering to their needs, rather than the companies, or the >customers needs. We, the users, need our software to work. If you want >to work on it, your role is to stop our stuff breaking. I don't know why you think that people can "do what they want" in defiance of market forces. The same with companies "bending" away from their needs or their customers' needs. If they don't do the right things, they will be beaten in the market by someone who is. -- "What IS it with all these idiots wanting their own distro? Do they get their own Windows? No." - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-26 11:02 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100pf9j.5dh.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689492 |
On 2025-04-26, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Borax Man wrote: > >>What I was referring to problem, isn't limited to software. It seems to >>be a Millenial trait in general, or of younger people. That is, they >>want to work on what they want to work on, rather than what needs to be >>done. People seeing their work as an opportunity to do what they think >>is best, rather than what *other* people need. They think that "work" >>is just a way they can actualise themselves. Companies bend towards >>this, catering to their needs, rather than the companies, or the >>customers needs. We, the users, need our software to work. If you want >>to work on it, your role is to stop our stuff breaking. > > I don't know why you think that people can "do what they want" in > defiance of market forces. The same with companies "bending" away > from their needs or their customers' needs. > > If they don't do the right things, they will be beaten in the market > by someone who is. > Not necessarily. This idea that "market forces" just fixes things runs contrary to observed experience. Many companies still turn a profit DESPITE massive ineffeciecies and avoidable errors. This is an ideological position, not one based on observation of the real world. Also, the "market" often moves according to external forces, or it doesn't due t intertia, or network effects. ie, you use product X, not becaues its good, but because you need to interact with others also using product X. Product X can turn to crap, but you can't leave, because that is where everyone still is.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-26 23:00 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <vujoj6$3cei9$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #689493 |
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 11:02:12 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > This idea that "market forces" just fixes things runs contrary to > observed experience. Many companies still turn a profit DESPITE > massive ineff[icen]cies and avoidable errors. That’s true in the proprietary software world because of “vendor lock-in” which inhibits effective competition. Open Source helps remedy that problem, by removing the lock-in effect. This is why there are entire thriving industries built on top of Open Source, which have completely destroyed, or are destroying, many proprietary products in those spaces. They work because they are making money out of Open Source. They don’t work because somebody is complaining about stuff they get for free.
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-27 07:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100rmso.3vb.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689511 |
On 2025-04-26, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 11:02:12 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > >> This idea that "market forces" just fixes things runs contrary to >> observed experience. Many companies still turn a profit DESPITE >> massive ineff[icen]cies and avoidable errors. > > That’s true in the proprietary software world because of “vendor lock-in” > which inhibits effective competition. > > Open Source helps remedy that problem, by removing the lock-in effect. > This is why there are entire thriving industries built on top of Open > Source, which have completely destroyed, or are destroying, many > proprietary products in those spaces. > > They work because they are making money out of Open Source. They don’t > work because somebody is complaining about stuff they get for free. Open Source doesn't really remedy the problem, if you can't modify the source. Free Software can, but even then, if its build to respect freedom. You can still have an "Open Source" service, which doesn't allow competing implementations. Freedom of choice comes from having the ability to choose in the first place. You can choose your email client. You can choose (used to be able to, options are limited now), your web browser. You can choose your terminal, your Window Manager, your shell, your file manager. You can choose to use Dropbox synthing, or SSH or NNCP or UUCP or SFTP or FTPS to transfer files. This is more than just being able to edit the code, its about having choice of workflow or methods. What I like about Linux (mostly), is that if someone wants to use Google Docs and Google Drive and GNOME 3 and avoid the shell, and Discord and the like, they can, but if you want to do things a different way, you can as well. If you don't like the direction of a Desktop Envronment, you have options. This is why Fedoras decision irks me a bit. I utilise X specific things, so its fine if some people don't care and just want Wayland, but the choice should remain.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-27 08:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <vukr4n$dud6$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #689529 |
On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 07:24:08 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > Open Source doesn't really remedy the problem, if you can't modify the > source. That’s one of the requirements for it to be “Open Source”. <https://opensource.org/osd> -- clause 3. > This is why Fedoras decision irks me a bit. You are free not to choose Fedora. > I utilise X specific things, so its fine if some people don't care > and just want Wayland, but the choice should remain. The code doesn’t maintain itself.
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-28 12:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100utr2.ju6.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689539 |
On 2025-04-27, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 07:24:08 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > >> Open Source doesn't really remedy the problem, if you can't modify the >> source. > > That’s one of the requirements for it to be “Open Source”. > ><https://opensource.org/osd> -- clause 3. > Depends on who is defining it. That definition does, but can't one claim their software to be Open Source if the deny you the right to distribute modifications? >> This is why Fedoras decision irks me a bit. > > You are free not to choose Fedora. > Yeah, I know. I was a user. It irked me. What is your point? >> I utilise X specific things, so its fine if some people don't care >> and just want Wayland, but the choice should remain. > > The code doesn’t maintain itself. Yeah, I know. What is your point? The point I made is stil valid.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-29 02:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <vupepi$pu5b$11@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #689595 |
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:41:06 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > On 2025-04-27, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >> >> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 07:24:08 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >> >>> Open Source doesn't really remedy the problem, if you can't modify the >>> source. >> >> That’s one of the requirements for it to be “Open Source”. >> >><https://opensource.org/osd> -- clause 3. >> > Depends on who is defining it. That is the official definition. >>> This is why Fedoras decision irks me a bit. >> >> You are free not to choose Fedora. >> > Yeah, I know. I was a user. It irked me. What is your point? The point is you don’t need to be “irked” by something you don’t even use anyway. >>> I utilise X specific things, so its fine if some people don't care and >>> just want Wayland, but the choice should remain. >> >> The code doesn’t maintain itself. > > Yeah, I know. What is your point? The point I made is stil valid. Your “point” seems to be that somebody should do a lot of work maintaining some old software just to make you happy.
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-29 13:52 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn1011mc1.46v.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689649 |
On 2025-04-29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:41:06 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > >> On 2025-04-27, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 07:24:08 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >>> >>>> Open Source doesn't really remedy the problem, if you can't modify the >>>> source. >>> >>> That’s one of the requirements for it to be “Open Source”. >>> >>><https://opensource.org/osd> -- clause 3. >>> >> Depends on who is defining it. > > That is the official definition. > So if I define it differently, they'll take me to court? >>>> This is why Fedoras decision irks me a bit. >>> >>> You are free not to choose Fedora. >>> >> Yeah, I know. I was a user. It irked me. What is your point? > > The point is you don’t need to be “irked” by something you don’t even use > anyway. > Read what I typed again. Its there, just above your reply. >>>> I utilise X specific things, so its fine if some people don't care and >>>> just want Wayland, but the choice should remain. >>> >>> The code doesn’t maintain itself. >> >> Yeah, I know. What is your point? The point I made is stil valid. > > Your “point” seems to be that somebody should do a lot of work maintaining > some old software just to make you happy. So you missed it then. It seems you prefer glib comments over comprehension. No, my point isn't that people need to work to make *me* happy, my point is a general comment that current systems, and maintenence of current systems *that are currently in use!*, is important. You may choose to priortise what YOU think is important, fine, but there are also other needs. The philosophy that people should just be disrupted, and things broken for "progress", is by and large, well, disruptive and costly. This is something that software industry likes to do, because they have a cowboy mentality and like to break things. One of the biggest tech companies, that spawned the big pile of caca that is Facebook, literally had as their motto, "move fast and break things". Maybe they still do. Fedora can move ahead if the like, but someone somewhere is going to have to do the work in their wake. As long as there are people who use, or need X, then there will be a demand for maintainence. If no one can maintain it, the cost will be born by other transitions or loss of functionality, or sunk costs in programs which represent recent work becoming useless. Some cost, somewhere is going to have to be borne.
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| From | RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-27 06:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100rk10.bh86.ronb02NOSPAM@3020m.home> |
| In reply to | #689493 |
On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: > On 2025-04-26, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote: >> Borax Man wrote: >> >>>What I was referring to problem, isn't limited to software. It seems to >>>be a Millenial trait in general, or of younger people. That is, they >>>want to work on what they want to work on, rather than what needs to be >>>done. People seeing their work as an opportunity to do what they think >>>is best, rather than what *other* people need. They think that "work" >>>is just a way they can actualise themselves. Companies bend towards >>>this, catering to their needs, rather than the companies, or the >>>customers needs. We, the users, need our software to work. If you want >>>to work on it, your role is to stop our stuff breaking. >> >> I don't know why you think that people can "do what they want" in >> defiance of market forces. The same with companies "bending" away >> from their needs or their customers' needs. >> >> If they don't do the right things, they will be beaten in the market >> by someone who is. >> > > Not necessarily. This idea that "market forces" just fixes things runs > contrary to observed experience. Many companies still turn a profit > DESPITE massive ineffeciecies and avoidable errors. This is an > ideological position, not one based on observation of the real world. > Also, the "market" often moves according to external forces, or it > doesn't due t intertia, or network effects. ie, you use product X, not > becaues its good, but because you need to interact with others also > using product X. Product X can turn to crap, but you can't leave, > because that is where everyone still is. A prime example, Windows. -- Jesus sat with sinners: He didn't sin with them. Know the difference.
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-27 07:18 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100rmik.3vb.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689525 |
On 2025-04-27, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote: > On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote: >> On 2025-04-26, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote: >>> Borax Man wrote: >>> >>>>What I was referring to problem, isn't limited to software. It seems to >>>>be a Millenial trait in general, or of younger people. That is, they >>>>want to work on what they want to work on, rather than what needs to be >>>>done. People seeing their work as an opportunity to do what they think >>>>is best, rather than what *other* people need. They think that "work" >>>>is just a way they can actualise themselves. Companies bend towards >>>>this, catering to their needs, rather than the companies, or the >>>>customers needs. We, the users, need our software to work. If you want >>>>to work on it, your role is to stop our stuff breaking. >>> >>> I don't know why you think that people can "do what they want" in >>> defiance of market forces. The same with companies "bending" away >>> from their needs or their customers' needs. >>> >>> If they don't do the right things, they will be beaten in the market >>> by someone who is. >>> >> >> Not necessarily. This idea that "market forces" just fixes things runs >> contrary to observed experience. Many companies still turn a profit >> DESPITE massive ineffeciecies and avoidable errors. This is an >> ideological position, not one based on observation of the real world. >> Also, the "market" often moves according to external forces, or it >> doesn't due t intertia, or network effects. ie, you use product X, not >> becaues its good, but because you need to interact with others also >> using product X. Product X can turn to crap, but you can't leave, >> because that is where everyone still is. > > A prime example, Windows. > Yes. Being the default, and the "network effect" has a big impact. I've been "forced" to create accounts with service I don't want to use, because of lack of practical choice. Buy a phone, and you're going to end up either creating a Google or Apple account. I went far without a Google account, but then needed one to use a bonus I got from work. The "market" can't do squat here.
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| From | chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-27 08:45 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <gpcs0kdouuo45fjagkfuk37krrjof4rk8i@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #689493 |
Borax Man wrote: > chrisv wrote: >> >> I don't know why you think that people can "do what they want" in >> defiance of market forces. The same with companies "bending" away >> from their needs or their customers' needs. >> >> If they don't do the right things, they will be beaten in the market >> by someone who is. >> > >Not necessarily. This idea that "market forces" just fixes things runs >contrary to observed experience. Many companies still turn a profit >DESPITE massive ineffeciecies and avoidable errors. This is an >ideological position, not one based on observation of the real world. For some definitions of "massive". Certainly, the more errors they make and inefficiencies they have, the more vulnerable to being out-competed they will be. I do not agree with you that companies will bend towards allowing workers to "do what they want", catering to them rather than the companies or the customers needs. That just wouldn't cut it, in the long term. >Also, the "market" often moves according to external forces, or it >doesn't due t intertia, or network effects. ie, you use product X, not >becaues its good, but because you need to interact with others also >using product X. Product X can turn to crap, but you can't leave, >because that is where everyone still is. We're not talking about monopolies.
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-28 11:44 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn100uqg1.ju6.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689547 |
On 2025-04-27, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote: > Borax Man wrote: > >> chrisv wrote: >>> >>> I don't know why you think that people can "do what they want" in >>> defiance of market forces. The same with companies "bending" away >>> from their needs or their customers' needs. >>> >>> If they don't do the right things, they will be beaten in the market >>> by someone who is. >>> >> >>Not necessarily. This idea that "market forces" just fixes things runs >>contrary to observed experience. Many companies still turn a profit >>DESPITE massive ineffeciecies and avoidable errors. This is an >>ideological position, not one based on observation of the real world. > > For some definitions of "massive". Certainly, the more errors they > make and inefficiencies they have, the more vulnerable to being > out-competed they will be. > > I do not agree with you that companies will bend towards allowing > workers to "do what they want", catering to them rather than the > companies or the customers needs. That just wouldn't cut it, in the > long term. > The problem is "long term" can be years, then you have another stupid idea that needs to be weeded out that takes it place. Thats cold comfort. >>Also, the "market" often moves according to external forces, or it >>doesn't due t intertia, or network effects. ie, you use product X, not >>becaues its good, but because you need to interact with others also >>using product X. Product X can turn to crap, but you can't leave, >>because that is where everyone still is. > > We're not talking about monopolies. > Yes, they functionally exist. Google. Twitter. Facebook. They all became titans. Windows is THE desktop operating system. If you can't exchange Word Documents, you're in trouble. Apple and Google are a clear duopoly in mobile phones. But even when there is not a monopoly, you have convergence.
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| From | chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-28 17:05 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <knuv0klsmfs53du9bm82p0aoqpgdov53g7@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #689583 |
Borax Man wrote: >> We're not talking about monopolies. > >Yes, they functionally exist Yeah, I know that. But we were talking about a normally functioning market, not a monopoly-dominated market. Companies in normally functioning markets (e.g. the Linux distro market) defy market forces at their peril.
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| From | chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-28 17:11 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <p6vv0kd82oh5kke9l35b6gp4cqesqvtttg@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #689633 |
chrisv wrote: >Borax Man wrote: > >>> We're not talking about monopolies. >> >>Yes, they functionally exist > >Yeah, I know that. But we were talking about a normally functioning >market, not a monopoly-dominated market. Companies in normally >functioning markets (e.g. the Linux distro market) defy market forces >at their peril. IOW, companies generally can't be catering to their employee's needs, rather than the company's needs, or the customer's needs.
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| From | Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-29 02:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <vuper1$pu5b$12@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #689583 |
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 11:44:01 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > Windows is THE desktop operating system. Only for those who insist on remaining loyal, no matter how buggy and broken their systems become.
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| From | CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-29 09:02 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <364QP.125792$oJg.4439@fx17.iad> |
| In reply to | #689650 |
On 2025-04-28 22:51, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 11:44:01 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: > >> Windows is THE desktop operating system. > > Only for those who insist on remaining loyal, no matter how buggy and > broken their systems become. The increasingly painful experience of updating Windows or MacOS says all that he needs to know about whether Windows is "the" operating system or not. We all eventually get annoyed with that, but there are other irreparable problems in the operating system that cause more capable individuals to look elsewhere. fTPM stuttering is not likely to be fixed for AMD laptop users, external monitors are likely to shut off repeatedly if you play DRM content of any kind, S0 suspend is likely to be the norm regardless of how inefficient and wasteful it is. Those are just three good reasons to move away. -- God be with you, CrudeSausage John 14:6
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-29 14:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn1011nb7.46v.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689668 |
On 2025-04-29, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote: > On 2025-04-28 22:51, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 11:44:01 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >> >>> Windows is THE desktop operating system. >> >> Only for those who insist on remaining loyal, no matter how buggy and >> broken their systems become. > > The increasingly painful experience of updating Windows or MacOS says > all that he needs to know about whether Windows is "the" operating > system or not. We all eventually get annoyed with that, but there are > other irreparable problems in the operating system that cause more > capable individuals to look elsewhere. fTPM stuttering is not likely to > be fixed for AMD laptop users, external monitors are likely to shut off > repeatedly if you play DRM content of any kind, S0 suspend is likely to > be the norm regardless of how inefficient and wasteful it is. Those are > just three good reasons to move away. > It is still the dominant desktop operating system. Whether it deserves to be or not, thats up for debate. I moved away decades ago. I've gotten others to move away, but the numbers dont lie. Most people just take the pain and live with Windows.
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| From | CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-29 11:07 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ZW5QP.125793$oJg.79971@fx17.iad> |
| In reply to | #689679 |
On 2025-04-29 10:08, Borax Man wrote: > On 2025-04-29, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote: >> On 2025-04-28 22:51, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >>> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 11:44:01 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >>> >>>> Windows is THE desktop operating system. >>> >>> Only for those who insist on remaining loyal, no matter how buggy and >>> broken their systems become. >> >> The increasingly painful experience of updating Windows or MacOS says >> all that he needs to know about whether Windows is "the" operating >> system or not. We all eventually get annoyed with that, but there are >> other irreparable problems in the operating system that cause more >> capable individuals to look elsewhere. fTPM stuttering is not likely to >> be fixed for AMD laptop users, external monitors are likely to shut off >> repeatedly if you play DRM content of any kind, S0 suspend is likely to >> be the norm regardless of how inefficient and wasteful it is. Those are >> just three good reasons to move away. >> > > It is still the dominant desktop operating system. Whether it deserves > to be or not, thats up for debate. As long as manufacturers don't give people the option to buy their hardware without Windows bundled on, it will retain much of its dominance. If ever manufacturers are being treated poorly by Microsoft, it might be beneficial for them to offer a choice upon initial bootup the way the Endeavour OS installer does. Before you go through with installation, it gives you a list of desktop environments you can use as screenshots of how they look. This would work, but I believe Microsoft makes it impossible for manufacturers to offer that kind of choice. If I'm not mistaken, they tell manufacturers that if they want to carry Windows, they cannot offer anything else. This applies for the hardware found in stores, at the very least. > I moved away decades ago. I've gotten others to move away, but the > numbers dont lie. Most people just take the pain and live with Windows. Windows does offer a good operating system, but the pain becomes worse when you are aware that you can avoid a good chunk of it. If you are like my students and don't even know what your operating system is, you're likely to just put up with it. If you grew up with technology and saw it progress, you're likely to be knowledgeable and aware that Linux offers some respite. I'm an example of that. I can tolerate all sorts of bullshit but even I have my breaking point. -- God be with you, CrudeSausage John 14:6
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| From | Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2025-04-30 10:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrn1013uil.1aev.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh> |
| In reply to | #689684 |
On 2025-04-29, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote: > On 2025-04-29 10:08, Borax Man wrote: >> On 2025-04-29, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote: >>> On 2025-04-28 22:51, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote: >>>> On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 11:44:01 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote: >>>> >>>>> Windows is THE desktop operating system. >>>> >>>> Only for those who insist on remaining loyal, no matter how buggy and >>>> broken their systems become. >>> >>> The increasingly painful experience of updating Windows or MacOS says >>> all that he needs to know about whether Windows is "the" operating >>> system or not. We all eventually get annoyed with that, but there are >>> other irreparable problems in the operating system that cause more >>> capable individuals to look elsewhere. fTPM stuttering is not likely to >>> be fixed for AMD laptop users, external monitors are likely to shut off >>> repeatedly if you play DRM content of any kind, S0 suspend is likely to >>> be the norm regardless of how inefficient and wasteful it is. Those are >>> just three good reasons to move away. >>> >> >> It is still the dominant desktop operating system. Whether it deserves >> to be or not, thats up for debate. > > As long as manufacturers don't give people the option to buy their > hardware without Windows bundled on, it will retain much of its > dominance. If ever manufacturers are being treated poorly by Microsoft, > it might be beneficial for them to offer a choice upon initial bootup > the way the Endeavour OS installer does. Before you go through with > installation, it gives you a list of desktop environments you can use as > screenshots of how they look. This would work, but I believe Microsoft > makes it impossible for manufacturers to offer that kind of choice. If > I'm not mistaken, they tell manufacturers that if they want to carry > Windows, they cannot offer anything else. This applies for the hardware > found in stores, at the very least. > To be honest, it was many years of using a PC before I too understood that there could be a viable alternative on the PC, and I was more "tech literate" than average. This was in the 90s. I knew of OS2 and some toy OS's. I started to get annoyed with Windows, and desire features and abilities that it was lacking. When I found that Linux was a thing, it kind of mostly met what I was looking for (more power!). >> I moved away decades ago. I've gotten others to move away, but the >> numbers dont lie. Most people just take the pain and live with Windows. > > Windows does offer a good operating system, but the pain becomes worse > when you are aware that you can avoid a good chunk of it. If you are > like my students and don't even know what your operating system is, > you're likely to just put up with it. If you grew up with technology and > saw it progress, you're likely to be knowledgeable and aware that Linux > offers some respite. I'm an example of that. I can tolerate all sorts of > bullshit but even I have my breaking point. > One of the barriers, is people cannot really imagine anything better. People just accepted in the 90s that computers were unstable and crashed. It was just a given, but when my friends asked me about Linux, and I showed that I could burn a CD, listen to music and download a file and browse *at the same time*, they were impressed. Computers didn't need to crash. You can do reptetive tasks far, far more efficiently than clicking through a series of GUI elements 24 times over. These are moments where people can realise they can do things, things they didn't think they could do. Emacs was an experience like that too. For year just using basic editing, then finding you can select words, sentences, transpose, etc. I use emacs at work, (mostly for org mode) and people think I'm using DOS, but when they see how I manage my todo lists, it seems like magic.
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