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Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #695856 > unrolled thread

I may have underestimated Microsoft

Started by"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>
First post2025-08-24 19:45 -0400
Last post2025-08-28 08:50 -0400
Articles 20 on this page of 113 — 14 participants

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Contents

  I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 19:45 -0400
    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-25 01:00 +0000
      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 21:18 -0400
    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CtrlAltDel <Altie@Bham.com> - 2025-08-25 02:16 +0000
      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 22:27 -0400
        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-25 02:35 +0000
          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 23:10 -0400
            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-25 03:39 +0000
              Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 23:50 -0400
                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-25 04:30 +0000
                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 02:35 -0400
                    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-25 07:11 +0000
                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 03:41 -0400
                        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-25 07:49 +0000
                          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 04:01 -0400
                            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-25 08:15 +0000
                            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Not Necessary <not@necessary.invalid> - 2025-08-25 14:29 +0530
                              Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CtrlAltDel <Altie@AL.invalid> - 2025-08-25 09:48 +0000
                    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Not Necessary <not@necessary.invalid> - 2025-08-25 08:53 +0000
                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-25 09:28 +0000
                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-25 09:45 -0400
                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-08-25 14:38 -0500
              Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-08-25 06:06 +0000
                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 02:46 -0400
                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-25 07:12 +0000
              Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-25 09:27 -0400
                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-08-25 14:35 -0500
                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-25 17:07 -0400
                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-26 01:52 +0000
                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-26 09:47 -0400
        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft 🇵🇱Jacek Marcin Jaworski🇵🇱 <jaworski1978@adres.pl> - 2025-08-25 05:12 +0200
          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-24 23:20 -0400
          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-25 04:26 +0000
          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-08-25 06:03 +0000
            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 02:44 -0400
              Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-25 07:13 +0000
                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 03:43 -0400
                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-25 08:16 +0000
                    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 04:35 -0400
                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-25 09:29 +0000
                        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 05:46 -0400
                          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-25 21:54 +0000
                            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 18:07 -0400
                              Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-26 01:54 +0000
                                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-26 08:41 -0400
                            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-26 03:46 +0000
                    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CtrlAltDel <Altie@AL.invalid> - 2025-08-25 08:51 +0000
    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-08-25 14:59 -0500
      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-25 16:31 -0400
        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CtrlAltDel <Altie@AL.invalid> - 2025-08-25 22:23 +0000
          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CtrlAltDel <Altie@AL.invalid> - 2025-08-25 22:26 +0000
            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-25 19:39 -0400
          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-25 19:39 -0400
            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CtrlAltDel <Altie@AL.invalid> - 2025-08-25 23:54 +0000
              Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-25 20:06 -0400
                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-26 01:55 +0000
                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-26 07:45 +0000
                    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Tyrone <none@none.none> - 2025-08-26 22:50 +0000
                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-27 01:33 +0000
                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-27 06:38 +0000
                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-26 09:51 -0400
                    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-26 10:02 -0400
                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-26 18:57 +0000
                        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-26 15:09 -0400
                        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-26 15:45 -0400
                    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-08-26 17:09 -0500
                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-26 19:33 -0400
                        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-08-26 19:39 -0400
                        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-27 06:35 +0000
                          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-27 09:07 -0400
                            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-28 06:14 +0000
                              Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-28 08:53 -0400
                                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-28 17:35 +0000
                                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-29 06:36 +0000
                                    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-29 17:05 +0000
                                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-30 06:07 +0000
                                        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-30 06:26 +0000
                                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-29 08:31 -0400
                                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-08-28 16:33 -0500
                                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-29 06:37 +0000
                                    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-30 06:09 +0000
                                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-29 08:35 -0400
                                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-29 06:32 +0000
                                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-29 08:46 -0400
                                    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-30 06:01 +0000
                                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-08-31 00:31 +0000
                                        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-31 10:06 -0400
                                          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-08-31 19:29 +0000
                                            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-09-01 08:26 -0400
                                              Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-09-02 06:47 +0000
                                                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-09-02 09:10 -0400
                                                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-09-03 10:18 +0000
                                          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-01 02:48 +0000
                                            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-09-01 08:43 -0400
                                              Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-02 03:54 +0000
                                                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-09-02 21:50 +0000
                                                Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Tyrone <none@none.none> - 2025-09-02 23:07 +0000
                                                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-03 03:24 +0000
                                                    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Tyrone <none@none.none> - 2025-09-03 04:09 +0000
                                                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-03 04:13 +0000
                                                        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-03 08:04 +0000
                                                  Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-03 04:14 +0000
                          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-27 19:48 +0000
                            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-28 06:17 +0000
                    Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-27 06:33 +0000
                      Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-27 09:07 -0400
                        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-28 00:43 +0000
                          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-28 06:12 +0000
                            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-08-28 15:41 +0000
                            Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-08-28 17:40 +0000
                              Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-29 06:30 +0000
                        Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-08-28 06:07 +0000
                          Re: I may have underestimated Microsoft CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-08-28 08:50 -0400

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#696008

FromCrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
Date2025-08-26 09:51 -0400
Message-ID<dZirQ.407674$l%O3.300417@fx18.iad>
In reply to#695994
On 2025-08-25 9:55 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 20:06:42 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
> 
>> In a way, it seems as though they don't see Linux as a threat at all.
> 
> “First they ignore you; then they laugh at you; then they fight you; then
> you win.”
>      -- Mohandas K Gandhi

I agree with that statement. Nevertheless, there have been many 
opportunities for Linux to take a significant portion of the computer 
user base from Windows and they have never been fruitful.

1) Windows 9x instability should have prompted people to migrate to 
Linux. Those who did found that Linux was just as unstable at that time, 
sometimes worse (the GUI portion).
2) The move to Windows Vista should have prompted people to migrate to 
Linux, but people preferred to simply remove Windows Vista and install 
XP on those computers.
3) The move to Windows 8 should have prompted people to migrate to 
Linux, but people preferred to simply remove 8 or 8.1 and install 7.
4) The move to Windows 10 should have prompted people to migrate to 
Linux, but most people found 10 to be "good enough" and installed it.

It remains to be seen what they do with the forced move to 11 in a 
little over a month.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
Islam is the enemy
John 14:6

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696010

From"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-26 10:02 -0400
Message-ID<A7jrQ.313804$jMMa.267597@fx09.iad>
In reply to#696008
On 8/26/2025 9:51 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
> On 2025-08-25 9:55 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 20:06:42 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> In a way, it seems as though they don't see Linux as a threat at all.
>>
>> “First they ignore you; then they laugh at you; then they fight you; then
>> you win.”
>>      -- Mohandas K Gandhi
> 
> I agree with that statement. Nevertheless, there have been many 
> opportunities for Linux to take a significant portion of the computer 
> user base from Windows and they have never been fruitful.
> 
> 1) Windows 9x instability should have prompted people to migrate to 
> Linux. Those who did found that Linux was just as unstable at that time, 
> sometimes worse (the GUI portion).
> 2) The move to Windows Vista should have prompted people to migrate to 
> Linux, but people preferred to simply remove Windows Vista and install 
> XP on those computers.
> 3) The move to Windows 8 should have prompted people to migrate to 
> Linux, but people preferred to simply remove 8 or 8.1 and install 7.


8.x was great with a third-party start menu.


> 4) The move to Windows 10 should have prompted people to migrate to 
> Linux, but most people found 10 to be "good enough" and installed it.


10 was fine until the 1809 release, that was when I first used Linux for 
a long period of time, until I got the new computer in 2021 when 20H2 
had become good again (though needing modern hardware, realistically).


> It remains to be seen what they do with the forced move to 11 in a 
> little over a month.


The extended support for 10 will likely be utilized by a lot of people, 
but yeah.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696023

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2025-08-26 18:57 +0000
Message-ID<mh6edhFtgm7U2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#696010
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:02:08 -0400, Joel W. Crump wrote:

> The extended support for 10 will likely be utilized by a lot of people,
> but yeah.

https://betanews.com/2025/08/09/extended-windows-10-support-means-
ditching-your-local-account-for-a-microsoft-account

The comments are interesting. While I do have a Microsoft account I am a 
local user on the Windows 11 laptop. otoh, I also have Ubuntu and Fedora 
accounts for various reasons. The Fedora one is mostly for submitting 
results during the Test Days. 

Paying for the extended support may be a bigger deal that having to create 
an account for most people. I'm not sure how far you'd get with an Android 
phone without a Google account plus all the other stuff that needs an 
account now. The public is well conditioned to sign up and not ask 
questions.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696029

From"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-26 15:09 -0400
Message-ID<HDnrQ.88122$xtoa.15017@fx46.iad>
In reply to#696023
On 8/26/2025 2:57 PM, rbowman wrote:

>> The extended support for 10 will likely be utilized by a lot of people,
>> but yeah.
> 
> https://betanews.com/2025/08/09/extended-windows-10-support-means-
> ditching-your-local-account-for-a-microsoft-account
> 
> The comments are interesting. While I do have a Microsoft account I am a
> local user on the Windows 11 laptop. otoh, I also have Ubuntu and Fedora
> accounts for various reasons. The Fedora one is mostly for submitting
> results during the Test Days.


Say what you will about using Windows with a Microsoft account, but by 
doing that on my dead PC and now on my mini PC, it remembered the theme 
I had and other settings, I didn't have to start from scratch on that 
stuff.  Pretty cool.


> Paying for the extended support may be a bigger deal that having to create
> an account for most people. I'm not sure how far you'd get with an Android
> phone without a Google account plus all the other stuff that needs an
> account now. The public is well conditioned to sign up and not ask
> questions.


What's the real drawback, just make the account so you can operate the 
thing.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696033

FromCrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
Date2025-08-26 15:45 -0400
Message-ID<h9orQ.420320$6hp4.394184@fx17.iad>
In reply to#696023
On 2025-08-26 2:57 p.m., rbowman wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:02:08 -0400, Joel W. Crump wrote:
> 
>> The extended support for 10 will likely be utilized by a lot of people,
>> but yeah.
> 
> https://betanews.com/2025/08/09/extended-windows-10-support-means-
> ditching-your-local-account-for-a-microsoft-account
> 
> The comments are interesting. While I do have a Microsoft account I am a
> local user on the Windows 11 laptop. otoh, I also have Ubuntu and Fedora
> accounts for various reasons. The Fedora one is mostly for submitting
> results during the Test Days.
> 
> Paying for the extended support may be a bigger deal that having to create
> an account for most people. I'm not sure how far you'd get with an Android
> phone without a Google account plus all the other stuff that needs an
> account now. The public is well conditioned to sign up and not ask
> questions.

For one year, it's not a bad idea. People will have time to either 
decide that the deal is not worth it and move to Linux or upgrade their 
machines.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
Islam is the enemy
John 14:6

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696036

Fromchrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
Date2025-08-26 17:09 -0500
Message-ID<asbsakh6iiiqd5t8nhtm9qj5g5dslodtl1@4ax.com>
In reply to#696008
CrudeSausage wrote:

>I agree with that statement. Nevertheless, there have been many 
>opportunities for Linux to take a significant portion of the computer 
>user base from Windows and they have never been fruitful.

Windows has rarely been bad enough for people to consider leaving the
safety of the herd.  When it was lackluster (ME, Vista) or even really
bad (Win 8) people and businesses had the option of using the old
version until a newer version came out.

-- 
'But...but... but the "advocates" said that nobody chooses Windows.
They said that nobody gets a copy of Windows because they actually
want it. It's forcibly bundled so everyone gets it whether they want
it or not.'  -  trolling fsckwit "Ezekiel", lying shamelessly

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696044

FromCrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
Date2025-08-26 19:33 -0400
Message-ID<fvrrQ.29684$zoSa.17637@fx47.iad>
In reply to#696036
On 2025-08-26 6:09 p.m., chrisv wrote:
> CrudeSausage wrote:
> 
>> I agree with that statement. Nevertheless, there have been many
>> opportunities for Linux to take a significant portion of the computer
>> user base from Windows and they have never been fruitful.
> 
> Windows has rarely been bad enough for people to consider leaving the
> safety of the herd.  When it was lackluster (ME, Vista) or even really
> bad (Win 8) people and businesses had the option of using the old
> version until a newer version came out.

I recall having a colleague with an AMD processor who told me that ME 
was pretty stable for him. He was definitely the exception, not the 
rule. As for Vista, I already mentioned that I was a beta-tester and 
that the product was nowhere near good when the company decided to 
release it to manufacturers. The final version was okay, but it was 
shockingly slow when doing simple things like using the file explorer. 
As for 8, it was definitely counter-intuitive. However, once you figured 
out that going to the bottom-left corner rather than pressing on Start 
got you the same result, it became fairly bearable. Still, I don't blame 
anyone for sticking to 7.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
Islam is the enemy
John 14:6

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696048

From"Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-26 19:39 -0400
Message-ID<vArrQ.58705$9va9.8522@fx04.iad>
In reply to#696044
On 8/26/2025 7:33 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
> On 2025-08-26 6:09 p.m., chrisv wrote:
>>
>> Windows has rarely been bad enough for people to consider leaving the
>> safety of the herd.  When it was lackluster (ME, Vista) or even really
>> bad (Win 8) people and businesses had the option of using the old
>> version until a newer version came out.
> 
> I recall having a colleague with an AMD processor who told me that ME 
> was pretty stable for him. He was definitely the exception, not the 
> rule. As for Vista, I already mentioned that I was a beta-tester and 
> that the product was nowhere near good when the company decided to 
> release it to manufacturers. The final version was okay, but it was 
> shockingly slow when doing simple things like using the file explorer. 
> As for 8, it was definitely counter-intuitive. However, once you figured 
> out that going to the bottom-left corner rather than pressing on Start 
> got you the same result, it became fairly bearable. Still, I don't blame 
> anyone for sticking to 7.


Win8.x with Classic Shell or Start8 was fine.

-- 
Joel W. Crump

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696070

FromRonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-27 06:35 +0000
Message-ID<108m8uu$g39p$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#696044
On 2025-08-26, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2025-08-26 6:09 p.m., chrisv wrote:
>> CrudeSausage wrote:
>> 
>>> I agree with that statement. Nevertheless, there have been many
>>> opportunities for Linux to take a significant portion of the computer
>>> user base from Windows and they have never been fruitful.
>> 
>> Windows has rarely been bad enough for people to consider leaving the
>> safety of the herd.  When it was lackluster (ME, Vista) or even really
>> bad (Win 8) people and businesses had the option of using the old
>> version until a newer version came out.
>
> I recall having a colleague with an AMD processor who told me that ME 
> was pretty stable for him. He was definitely the exception, not the 
> rule. As for Vista, I already mentioned that I was a beta-tester and 
> that the product was nowhere near good when the company decided to 
> release it to manufacturers. The final version was okay, but it was 
> shockingly slow when doing simple things like using the file explorer. 
> As for 8, it was definitely counter-intuitive. However, once you figured 
> out that going to the bottom-left corner rather than pressing on Start 
> got you the same result, it became fairly bearable. Still, I don't blame 
> anyone for sticking to 7.

To me 8.1 should have been called 9, because it was quit a bit different 
than 8.

-- 
Definition of Insanity: Thinking you can 
beat the Bear on his own territory.

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#696083

FromCrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
Date2025-08-27 09:07 -0400
Message-ID<MqDrQ.51077$j%z8.41917@fx07.iad>
In reply to#696070
On 2025-08-27 2:35 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2025-08-26, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2025-08-26 6:09 p.m., chrisv wrote:
>>> CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with that statement. Nevertheless, there have been many
>>>> opportunities for Linux to take a significant portion of the computer
>>>> user base from Windows and they have never been fruitful.
>>>
>>> Windows has rarely been bad enough for people to consider leaving the
>>> safety of the herd.  When it was lackluster (ME, Vista) or even really
>>> bad (Win 8) people and businesses had the option of using the old
>>> version until a newer version came out.
>>
>> I recall having a colleague with an AMD processor who told me that ME
>> was pretty stable for him. He was definitely the exception, not the
>> rule. As for Vista, I already mentioned that I was a beta-tester and
>> that the product was nowhere near good when the company decided to
>> release it to manufacturers. The final version was okay, but it was
>> shockingly slow when doing simple things like using the file explorer.
>> As for 8, it was definitely counter-intuitive. However, once you figured
>> out that going to the bottom-left corner rather than pressing on Start
>> got you the same result, it became fairly bearable. Still, I don't blame
>> anyone for sticking to 7.
> 
> To me 8.1 should have been called 9, because it was quit a bit different
> than 8.

Honestly, if you removed the touch stuff, it was no different than 7.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
Islam is the enemy
John 14:6

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#696121

FromRonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-28 06:14 +0000
Message-ID<108os52$14i2g$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#696083
On 2025-08-27, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2025-08-27 2:35 a.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2025-08-26, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> On 2025-08-26 6:09 p.m., chrisv wrote:
>>>> CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I agree with that statement. Nevertheless, there have been many
>>>>> opportunities for Linux to take a significant portion of the computer
>>>>> user base from Windows and they have never been fruitful.
>>>>
>>>> Windows has rarely been bad enough for people to consider leaving the
>>>> safety of the herd.  When it was lackluster (ME, Vista) or even really
>>>> bad (Win 8) people and businesses had the option of using the old
>>>> version until a newer version came out.
>>>
>>> I recall having a colleague with an AMD processor who told me that ME
>>> was pretty stable for him. He was definitely the exception, not the
>>> rule. As for Vista, I already mentioned that I was a beta-tester and
>>> that the product was nowhere near good when the company decided to
>>> release it to manufacturers. The final version was okay, but it was
>>> shockingly slow when doing simple things like using the file explorer.
>>> As for 8, it was definitely counter-intuitive. However, once you figured
>>> out that going to the bottom-left corner rather than pressing on Start
>>> got you the same result, it became fairly bearable. Still, I don't blame
>>> anyone for sticking to 7.
>> 
>> To me 8.1 should have been called 9, because it was quit a bit different
>> than 8.
>
> Honestly, if you removed the touch stuff, it was no different than 7.

You're talking about 8.1, right? I think 8.1 was uglier than 7, but it 
basically worked the same. If I remember right, 8.0 (itself) didn't have the 
bottom panel (or whatever it's called in Windows).

-- 
Definition of Insanity: Thinking you can 
beat the Bear on his own territory.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696134

FromCrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
Date2025-08-28 08:53 -0400
Message-ID<7jYrQ.173153$P2c3.138819@fx12.iad>
In reply to#696121
On 2025-08-28 2:14 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2025-08-27, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2025-08-27 2:35 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>> On 2025-08-26, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>> On 2025-08-26 6:09 p.m., chrisv wrote:
>>>>> CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with that statement. Nevertheless, there have been many
>>>>>> opportunities for Linux to take a significant portion of the computer
>>>>>> user base from Windows and they have never been fruitful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Windows has rarely been bad enough for people to consider leaving the
>>>>> safety of the herd.  When it was lackluster (ME, Vista) or even really
>>>>> bad (Win 8) people and businesses had the option of using the old
>>>>> version until a newer version came out.
>>>>
>>>> I recall having a colleague with an AMD processor who told me that ME
>>>> was pretty stable for him. He was definitely the exception, not the
>>>> rule. As for Vista, I already mentioned that I was a beta-tester and
>>>> that the product was nowhere near good when the company decided to
>>>> release it to manufacturers. The final version was okay, but it was
>>>> shockingly slow when doing simple things like using the file explorer.
>>>> As for 8, it was definitely counter-intuitive. However, once you figured
>>>> out that going to the bottom-left corner rather than pressing on Start
>>>> got you the same result, it became fairly bearable. Still, I don't blame
>>>> anyone for sticking to 7.
>>>
>>> To me 8.1 should have been called 9, because it was quit a bit different
>>> than 8.
>>
>> Honestly, if you removed the touch stuff, it was no different than 7.
> 
> You're talking about 8.1, right? I think 8.1 was uglier than 7, but it
> basically worked the same. If I remember right, 8.0 (itself) didn't have the
> bottom panel (or whatever it's called in Windows).

It had the bottom panel, but it didn't have the Start button. That's why 
it was a little confusing to use at first. Additionally, when you 
figured out that you could do the same thing as Start by traveling to 
the bottom left, it opened up a software menu which took over your 
screen entirely. People didn't expect that and I don't blame them for 
hating it. It felt as though you were being kicked out of your desktop 
environment every time you wanted to open a program. The modern elements 
were always conflicting with the win32 elements as well.

Either way, it was passable and I find that 8.x itself, when within the 
traditional Windows environment, was actually somewhat prettier than 7. 
It was barely different, but it just seemed a little prettier. Still, 
there was truly no reason to go to 8 if you had 7.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
Islam is the enemy
John 14:6

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696143

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2025-08-28 17:35 +0000
Message-ID<mhbiasFplqiU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#696134
On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 08:53:21 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> It had the bottom panel, but it didn't have the Start button. That's why
> it was a little confusing to use at first. Additionally, when you
> figured out that you could do the same thing as Start by traveling to
> the bottom left, it opened up a software menu which took over your
> screen entirely. People didn't expect that and I don't blame them for
> hating it. It felt as though you were being kicked out of your desktop
> environment every time you wanted to open a program. The modern elements
> were always conflicting with the win32 elements as well.

That's what I dislike about Ubuntu GNOME.  The 'Show Apps' button on the 
lower right brings up icons that are so inefficiently displayed I have to 
cycle through 5 screens worth. Like Windows you're expected to type into a 
search box rather than selecting an app directly. 

I never ran 8 but Windows Server was the same. When I RDP'd into one of 
the servers I had to hunt for what should have been on a menu.

It works on a phone but sucks on a desktop. 

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#696173

FromRonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-29 06:36 +0000
Message-ID<108rhp6$1qmb0$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#696143
On 2025-08-28, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 08:53:21 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> It had the bottom panel, but it didn't have the Start button. That's why
>> it was a little confusing to use at first. Additionally, when you
>> figured out that you could do the same thing as Start by traveling to
>> the bottom left, it opened up a software menu which took over your
>> screen entirely. People didn't expect that and I don't blame them for
>> hating it. It felt as though you were being kicked out of your desktop
>> environment every time you wanted to open a program. The modern elements
>> were always conflicting with the win32 elements as well.
>
> That's what I dislike about Ubuntu GNOME.  The 'Show Apps' button on the 
> lower right brings up icons that are so inefficiently displayed I have to 
> cycle through 5 screens worth. Like Windows you're expected to type into a 
> search box rather than selecting an app directly. 
>
> I never ran 8 but Windows Server was the same. When I RDP'd into one of 
> the servers I had to hunt for what should have been on a menu.
>
> It works on a phone but sucks on a desktop. 

What little I've used of Ubuntu I found that I could make the icons much 
smaller, which helped. But it required running an application in the CLI to 
do it. (I don't think you actually made the icons smaller. I think you 
changed the grid's number of columns and rows, which forced the icons to be 
smaller.)

-- 
Definition of Insanity: Thinking you can 
beat the Bear on his own territory.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696196

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2025-08-29 17:05 +0000
Message-ID<mhe4uhF8e0iU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#696173
On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:36:23 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> What little I've used of Ubuntu I found that I could make the icons much
> smaller, which helped. But it required running an application in the CLI
> to do it. (I don't think you actually made the icons smaller. I think
> you changed the grid's number of columns and rows, which forced the
> icons to be smaller.)

I'll have to look for that. I'm aware there are some GNOME customizations 
but I usually don't 'rice' a distro.  

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#696217

FromRonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-30 06:07 +0000
Message-ID<108u4e4$2eev5$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#696196
On 2025-08-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:36:23 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> What little I've used of Ubuntu I found that I could make the icons much
>> smaller, which helped. But it required running an application in the CLI
>> to do it. (I don't think you actually made the icons smaller. I think
>> you changed the grid's number of columns and rows, which forced the
>> icons to be smaller.)
>
> I'll have to look for that. I'm aware there are some GNOME customizations 
> but I usually don't 'rice' a distro.  

I wish I could remember where I found this. I would pass along the link.

-- 
Definition of Insanity: Thinking you can 
beat the Bear on his own territory.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696219

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2025-08-30 06:26 +0000
Message-ID<mhfjtcFfiteU5@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#696217
On Sat, 30 Aug 2025 06:07:00 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> On 2025-08-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Aug 2025 06:36:23 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>>
>>> What little I've used of Ubuntu I found that I could make the icons
>>> much smaller, which helped. But it required running an application in
>>> the CLI to do it. (I don't think you actually made the icons smaller.
>>> I think you changed the grid's number of columns and rows, which
>>> forced the icons to be smaller.)
>>
>> I'll have to look for that. I'm aware there are some GNOME
>> customizations but I usually don't 'rice' a distro.
> 
> I wish I could remember where I found this. I would pass along the link.

I can live with what I've got. At one time I had installed bsdgames to gt 
wtf, an acronym lookup, but you get all the classic text based games. 
Every time I upgraded to a new version Ubuntu found them all and added 
them to the grid. Since there isn't an associated svg it creates a generic 
icon.  That was annoying enough I found where to delete them.

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#696177

FromCrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
Date2025-08-29 08:31 -0400
Message-ID<n4hsQ.74211$j831.3454@fx40.iad>
In reply to#696143
On 2025-08-28 1:35 p.m., rbowman wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2025 08:53:21 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
> 
>> It had the bottom panel, but it didn't have the Start button. That's why
>> it was a little confusing to use at first. Additionally, when you
>> figured out that you could do the same thing as Start by traveling to
>> the bottom left, it opened up a software menu which took over your
>> screen entirely. People didn't expect that and I don't blame them for
>> hating it. It felt as though you were being kicked out of your desktop
>> environment every time you wanted to open a program. The modern elements
>> were always conflicting with the win32 elements as well.
> 
> That's what I dislike about Ubuntu GNOME.  The 'Show Apps' button on the
> lower right brings up icons that are so inefficiently displayed I have to
> cycle through 5 screens worth. Like Windows you're expected to type into a
> search box rather than selecting an app directly.
> 
> I never ran 8 but Windows Server was the same. When I RDP'd into one of
> the servers I had to hunt for what should have been on a menu.
> 
> It works on a phone but sucks on a desktop.

For what it's worth, I thought Windows Phone was actually quite good. 
The third-party applications were often lacking, particularly in music 
playback, but what was made by Microsoft was splendid. I hated to have 
to move away from it when I did. It's too bad that it didn't set the 
world on fire because the interface, the performance and even the look 
of the phone was quite good.

Of course, I didn't feel the same way about Windows tablets. They were 
awful. You could tell that the company couldn't decide whether they 
wanted to continue from the modern interface on or continue working in 
the traditional desktop interface. Similarly, users couldn't tell where 
things were going.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
Islam is the enemy
John 14:6

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#696149

Fromchrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
Date2025-08-28 16:33 -0500
Message-ID<rji1bk11fkoija4k253miq650a5dlbuh6n@4ax.com>
In reply to#696134
CrudeSausage wrote:

>Either way, it was passable and I find that 8.x itself, when within the 
>traditional Windows environment, was actually somewhat prettier than 7. 
>It was barely different, but it just seemed a little prettier. Still, 
>there was truly no reason to go to 8 if you had 7.

My memory of 8 was tring it in a store.  I launched an app, it went
full screen, and I could not figure out how to get out of it.  I tried
alt-tab, I tried clicking-around, and I was stuck.  Worst initial
experience ever.

-- 
"Almost no one in user land gives a flying fuck about an open and free
kernel."  -  "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark

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#696174

FromRonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com>
Date2025-08-29 06:37 +0000
Message-ID<108rhs5$1qmb0$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#696149
On 2025-08-28, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>>Either way, it was passable and I find that 8.x itself, when within the 
>>traditional Windows environment, was actually somewhat prettier than 7. 
>>It was barely different, but it just seemed a little prettier. Still, 
>>there was truly no reason to go to 8 if you had 7.
>
> My memory of 8 was tring it in a store.  I launched an app, it went
> full screen, and I could not figure out how to get out of it.  I tried
> alt-tab, I tried clicking-around, and I was stuck.  Worst initial
> experience ever.

That was impression the first time I tried version 8. (Someone gave me a 
laptop that kept it's WiFi connection. It came with 8 but I upgraded to 8.1, 
which I thought was much better.)

-- 
Definition of Insanity: Thinking you can 
beat the Bear on his own territory.

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