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can someone test an OGG video on linux?

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  can someone test an OGG video on linux? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2018-08-17 06:18 -0400
    Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2018-08-17 10:31 +0000
      Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 04:11 -0700
      Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2018-08-17 09:45 -0400
        Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 07:03 -0700
    Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 03:40 -0700
    Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2018-08-17 13:17 +0200
      Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2018-08-17 09:44 -0400
        Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Sam E <why.should.this@be.email.invalid> - 2018-08-17 11:22 -0500
          Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2018-08-18 01:13 +0200
            Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 16:39 -0700
              Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-08-17 17:22 -0700
                Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 17:42 -0700
      Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> - 2018-08-17 11:09 -0500
    Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Andrzej Matuch <a.m@vt.ca> - 2018-08-17 13:29 +0000
      Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 06:32 -0700
      Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2018-08-17 09:40 -0400
        Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Andrzej Matuch <a.m@vt.ca> - 2018-08-17 13:54 +0000
          Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2018-08-17 10:17 -0400
            Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 07:34 -0700
            Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 07:49 -0700
            Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> - 2018-08-17 11:40 -0500
              Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2018-08-17 15:19 -0400
                Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 12:30 -0700
                  Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-08-17 13:04 -0700
                Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> - 2018-08-17 17:28 -0500
                  Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 15:37 -0700
                    Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-08-17 17:22 -0700
                  Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2018-08-17 19:57 -0400
            Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2018-08-17 14:27 -0400
            Maybe SOLVED dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2018-08-17 15:02 -0400
              Re: Maybe SOLVED Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 12:15 -0700
                Re: Maybe SOLVED Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-08-17 13:04 -0700
              Re: Maybe SOLVED Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-17 17:23 -0400
                Re: Maybe SOLVED dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2018-08-17 18:17 -0400
                Re: Maybe SOLVED Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 15:21 -0700
                  Re: Maybe SOLVED Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-08-17 17:23 -0700
              Re: Maybe SOLVED Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> - 2018-08-17 17:30 -0500
                Re: Maybe SOLVED dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2018-08-17 19:54 -0400
                  Re: Maybe SOLVED Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 16:55 -0700
                    Re: Maybe SOLVED Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-08-17 17:22 -0700
          can someone test an OGG video on linux? Simon bar Sinister <john.h.gohde@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 07:29 -0700
            Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Andrzej Matuch <a.m@vt.ca> - 2018-08-17 16:09 +0000
              Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 09:37 -0700
          Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? notX <no.email@dummy.invalid> - 2018-08-17 11:25 -0500
        Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 07:18 -0700
    Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-17 11:24 -0400
      Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> - 2018-08-17 11:48 -0500
    Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> - 2018-08-17 10:52 -0500
    Re: can someone test an OGG video on linux? Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid> - 2018-08-17 11:21 -0500

Page 3 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3]

#463670 — Re: Maybe SOLVED

On 8/17/18 4:55 PM, Steve Carroll wrote:
> On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 4:54:53 PM UTC-7, dale wrote:
>> On 8/17/2018 6:30 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>>> On 08/17/2018 02:02 PM, dale wrote:
>>>> As per suggestion the file I thought was an OGG video was still an MP4
>>>>
>>>> In the convert options of VLC I didn't select a "profile"
>>>>
>>>> now, these were done from:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/Capture_20161219_2.mp4
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/Capture_20161219_2.mp4>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> to:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/Capture_20161219_2.ogg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/Capture_20161219_2.ogg>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> using the Video - Theora + Vorbis (OGG) profile
>>>>
>>>> it opens in Firefox, which was a problem noted
>>>>
>>>> you can see my HTML5 implementation:
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/weblog.html
>>>>
>>>> <https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/weblog.html>
>>>>
>>>> on the "BLOG" selection in the site in my signature
>>>
>>> It seems to be working now.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks Much !!!
>>
>> -- 
>> dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/
>> Not a professional opinion unless specified.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks to Jonas Eklundh Communication AB and his 'convenient friends' you now need a recognized list. If Jeff Relf and others start trolling him again I will jump in... as I promised. I am referring to advocates here, not drive by loons, who have been responding to him all along. Until or unless Jonas Eklundh Communication AB offers up his 'first-rate' open source tool for review, there is no challenge, just irrational assertions. He's plainly flooding, he got scared and he's doing the normal role-reversal pranks learned in trolling 101 as he tries to retain what Jeff Relf already has... but it won't work. I bet he thinks his wife's life was fun.
> 
> So he changed his story to posting about his business. Linux offers the least of everything to the average user. It was Jonas Eklundh Communication AB who got busted using hundreds of puppets for years, and these are 'people' who come literally out of the blue immediately into threads where he was being ripped apart... over and over for years.
> 

Hey, Carroll, you claimed I was lying about your flood bot posts. Why no 
quotes of these "lies"?

-- 
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They 
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel 
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

<https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308>

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#463528

On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 9:54:43 AM UTC-4, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 09:40:50 -0400, dale wrote:
> 
> > On 8/17/2018 9:29 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
> >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 06:18:17 -0400, dale wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I only have Windows. I used VLC to convert an MP4 to OGG. It plays
> >>> well in VLC. Can someone(s) test it on linux for me?
> >>>
> >>> https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/
> >> Capture_20161219_2.ogg
> >>>
> >>> <https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/
> >> Capture_20161219_2.ogg>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >> 
> >> Neither one works by default in Firefox.
> >> 
> >> 
> > this is my intention:
> > 
> > https://www.dalekelly.org/weblog.html
> > 
> > <https://www.dalekelly.org/weblog.html>
> 
> The video on that web page worked fine though. As far as I know, Firefox 
> has built-in support for OGG and every other free codec so if that's what 
> you used, I'm surprised that it didn't work.




Trying to carry on an intelligent conversation on in COLA is a waste of time. All the people here are fruity in so many different ways.

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#463565

On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 07:29:47 -0700, Simon bar Sinister wrote:

> On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 9:54:43 AM UTC-4, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 09:40:50 -0400, dale wrote:
>> 
>> > On 8/17/2018 9:29 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 06:18:17 -0400, dale wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>> I only have Windows. I used VLC to convert an MP4 to OGG. It plays
>> >>> well in VLC. Can someone(s) test it on linux for me?
>> >>>
>> >>> https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/
>> >> Capture_20161219_2.ogg
>> >>>
>> >>> <https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/
>> >> Capture_20161219_2.ogg>
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >> 
>> >> Neither one works by default in Firefox.
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> > this is my intention:
>> > 
>> > https://www.dalekelly.org/weblog.html
>> > 
>> > <https://www.dalekelly.org/weblog.html>
>> 
>> The video on that web page worked fine though. As far as I know,
>> Firefox has built-in support for OGG and every other free codec so if
>> that's what you used, I'm surprised that it didn't work.
> 
> Trying to carry on an intelligent conversation on in COLA is a waste of
> time. All the people here are fruity in so many different ways.

Perhaps if you would model the appropriate behaviour, we might follow 
your example?

-- 
Andrzej Matuch
FSF Contributor / EFF Member / Free speech advocate

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#463580

On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 9:09:48 AM UTC-7, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 07:29:47 -0700, Simon bar Sinister wrote:
> 
> > On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 9:54:43 AM UTC-4, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
> >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 09:40:50 -0400, dale wrote:
> >> 
> >> > On 8/17/2018 9:29 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
> >> >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 06:18:17 -0400, dale wrote:
> >> >> 
> >> >>> Hi,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I only have Windows. I used VLC to convert an MP4 to OGG. It plays
> >> >>> well in VLC. Can someone(s) test it on linux for me?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/
> >> >> Capture_20161219_2.ogg
> >> >>>
> >> >>> <https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/
> >> >> Capture_20161219_2.ogg>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Thanks,
> >> >> 
> >> >> Neither one works by default in Firefox.
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> > this is my intention:
> >> > 
> >> > https://www.dalekelly.org/weblog.html
> >> > 
> >> > <https://www.dalekelly.org/weblog.html>
> >> 
> >> The video on that web page worked fine though. As far as I know,
> >> Firefox has built-in support for OGG and every other free codec so if
> >> that's what you used, I'm surprised that it didn't work.
> > 
> > Trying to carry on an intelligent conversation on in COLA is a waste of
> > time. All the people here are fruity in so many different ways.
> 
> Perhaps if you would model the appropriate behaviour, we might follow 
> your example?
> 
> -- 
> Andrzej Matuch
> FSF Contributor / EFF Member / Free speech advocate



From how HWSNBN responded - by being ignorant of basics of the Debian and so forth - he's never understood a computationally complex program before. If he had he'd have understood the requirements! How is wasting existing brain matter tied to love of Debian in any way going to lead to valuable group discussion? 

Steve Petruzzellis and HWSNBN had their shortfalls and their errors. One presented it cool and didn't do anything too publicly that could not be tricking people until it was too late. Currently there are too many "works for me" false "advocates" and not enough programers with the patience to help the people with psychological problems. 

Linux offers the least to the least. 

It should not matter because the FROM line on a post is irrelevant, it's the content that counts. Time to blame anything but Linux! Linus Torvalds is a false advocate's only reason for living. 



--
Live on Kickstarter!!
http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/BilkHelp.html
Jonas Eklundh

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#463572

On 08/17/2018 08:54 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

[snip]

> The video on that web page worked fine though. As far as I know, Firefox
> has built-in support for OGG and every other free codec so if that's what
> you used, I'm surprised that it didn't work.

"If you call the tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?"
"Four. Calling the tail a leg doesn't make it one."

In the same way, calling an MP4 an OGG doesn't make it one. That file is 
a MP4. You need to convert it.

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#463525

On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 6:40:51 AM UTC-7, dale wrote:
> On 8/17/2018 9:29 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
> > On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 06:18:17 -0400, dale wrote:
> > 
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I only have Windows. I used VLC to convert an MP4 to OGG. It plays well
> >> in VLC. Can someone(s) test it on linux for me?
> >>
> >> https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/
> > Capture_20161219_2.ogg
> >>
> >> <https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/
> > Capture_20161219_2.ogg>
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> > 
> > Neither one works by default in Firefox.
> > 
> 
> this is my intention:
> 
> https://www.dalekelly.org/weblog.html
> 
> <https://www.dalekelly.org/weblog.html>
> 
> -- 
> dale - https://www.dalekelly.org/
> Not a professional opinion unless specified.



What did Steve Carroll assume from the lying imbecile? That Jonas Eklundh Communication AB loon has nothing to blow but time. He has nothing else. Especially not confidence. I have been around to fully determine the depths of the guy's narcissism. It is trivial to handpick by bragging about a few outliers differing from what's the norm. What is more important from an honest advocates opinion are the average values. Zsh shell's update system failed over and over again. 

--
I Left My Husband & Daughter At Home And THIS happened!
http://www.5z8.info/hack-outlook_c6c9in_michaelangelo-virus
https://goo.gl/Fho5Nq
Jonas Eklundh Communication

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#463547

dale wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I only have Windows. I used VLC to convert an MP4 to OGG. It plays well 
> in VLC. Can someone(s) test it on linux for me?
> 
> https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/Capture_20161219_2.ogg 
> 
> 
> <https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/Capture_20161219_2.ogg> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 

Capture_20161219_2.mp4
386,343 bytes
SHA1: B8AA90B0C54E1EA23E66ABE5D87A6528EB3D67EC

Capture_20161219_2.ogg
190,005 bytes
SHA1: B3FCB1EBE80F7E2A91A5BB5A504DD5B062CEB445

Using ffprobe...

Input #0, mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2, from 'Capture_20161219_2.mp4':
   Metadata:
     major_brand     : mp42
     minor_version   : 0
     compatible_brands: mp41isom
     creation_time   : 2017-02-19T17:21:07.000000Z
   Duration: 00:00:06.07, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 509 kb/s
     Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (Main) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p, 800x480 [SAR 1:1 DAR 5:3], 377 kb/s, 30 fps, 30 tbr, 30k tbn, 60 tbc (default)
     Metadata:
       creation_time   : 2017-02-19T17:21:07.000000Z
       handler_name    : VideoHandler
       encoder         : AVC Coding
     Stream #0:1(und): Audio: aac (LC) (mp4a / 0x6134706D), 44100 Hz, stereo, fltp, 127 kb/s (default)
     Metadata:
       creation_time   : 2017-02-19T17:21:07.000000Z
       handler_name    : SoundHandler

Input #0, mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2, from 'Capture_20161219_2.ogg':
   Metadata:
     major_brand     : isom
     minor_version   : 0
     compatible_brands: mp41avc1
     creation_time   : 2018-08-17T10:04:12.000000Z
     encoder         : vlc 3.0.3 stream output
     encoder-eng     : vlc 3.0.3 stream output
   Duration: 00:00:05.87, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 259 kb/s
     Stream #0:0(eng): Audio: mp3 (mp4a / 0x6134706D), 44100 Hz, stereo, s16p, 127 kb/s (default)
     Metadata:
       creation_time   : 2018-08-17T10:04:12.000000Z
       handler_name    : SoundHandler
     Stream #0:1(eng): Video: h264 (High) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p, 800x480 [SAR 1:1 DAR 5:3], 123 kb/s, 30 fps, 30 tbr, 90k tbn, 60 tbc (default)
     Metadata:
       creation_time   : 2018-08-17T10:04:12.000000Z
       handler_name    : VideoHandler

I don't think slapping .ogg on the filename, makes
it an OGG. The ffprobe output doesn't mention the
container type, just the video and audio codecs.

The extension .ogg might be for a soundfile only.
I have some counter-examples.

http://clips.vorwaerts-gmbh.de/big_buck_bunny.ogv
4654162 bytes  (1 minute)
SHA1: 2E6605AA454D18F8CEC76F0FE05C19AA2A39F9EF

http://clips.vorwaerts-gmbh.de/big_buck_bunny.webm
5071076 bytes  (1 minute)
SHA1: 0EB3B84B06E07B13C6FFDBEB15D7C738B1B6A9FA

[ogg @ 0x562338a5e080] Broken file, keyframe not correctly marked.
     Last message repeated 1 times
Input #0, ogg, from 'big_buck_bunny.ogv':
   Duration: 00:01:00.71, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 613 kb/s
     Stream #0:0: Data: none
     Stream #0:1: Video: theora, yuv420p, 640x360, 24 fps, 24 tbr, 24 tbn, 24 tbc
     Metadata:
       ENCODER         : ffmpeg2theora-0.26
       SOURCE_OSHASH   : 2db240d20536fa31
     Stream #0:2: Audio: vorbis, 22000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 96 kb/s
     Metadata:
       ENCODER         : ffmpeg2theora-0.26
       SOURCE_OSHASH   : 2db240d20536fa31
Unsupported codec with id 0 for input stream 0

Input #0, matroska,webm, from 'big_buck_bunny.webm':
   Metadata:
     encoder         : Flix
   Duration: 00:01:01.51, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 659 kb/s
     Stream #0:0(eng): Video: vp8, yuv420p(progressive), 640x360, SAR 1:1 DAR 16:9, 24 fps, 24 tbr, 1k tbn, 1k tbc (default)
     Metadata:
       title           : VP8 video stream
     Stream #0:1(eng): Audio: vorbis, 22050 Hz, mono, fltp (default)

The ".ogv" appears to be theora/vorbis.
The ".webm" appears to be VP8/vorbis.

In VLC, the .webm is liquid and artifact-free.

You could try some video conversions with ffmpeg.
Once the ffprobe detections improve, you can re-post.

Big_Buck_Bunny is from the Video For Everybody test page.

http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody/test.html

HTH,
     Paul

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#463590

[snip]

> I don't think slapping .ogg on the filename, makes
> it an OGG. The ffprobe output doesn't mention the
> container type, just the video and audio codecs.

I was surprised when I saw that (First is was a BMP with a JPG 
extension). I didn't expect anybody would believe that renaming 
something would change what it is.

BTW, you CAN do the conversion with VLC.

You can use .ogg for video, if you have a way to make the server return 
the correct MIME type (video/ogg instead of audio/ogg), although some 
people use .ogv for OGG videos.

[snip]

-- 
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider
ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority
behind it." -- Albert Einstein

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#463556

On 08/17/2018 05:18 AM, dale wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I only have Windows. I used VLC to convert an MP4 to OGG. It plays well 
> in VLC. Can someone(s) test it on linux for me?
> 
> https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/Capture_20161219_2.ogg 
> 
> 
> <https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/Capture_20161219_2.ogg> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,

I'm running Firefox on Linux.

Neither link is actually to an .ogg, but to a page where one can be 
downloaded. I suppose you wanted the first file there.

Firefox 61 shows a player with "No video with supported format and MIME 
type".

It's not working on the latest Chromium or Opera either.

Saving didn't work in FF, but did in Chromium. The file played OK. It 
just doesn't work in a browser.

Browsers have specific codec requirements, that are probably stricter 
than a standalone player.

-- 
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider
ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority
behind it." -- Albert Einstein

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#463568

On 08/17/2018 05:18 AM, dale wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I only have Windows. I used VLC to convert an MP4 to OGG. It plays well 
> in VLC. Can someone(s) test it on linux for me?

Are you sure you actually converted it, not just saved it with a 
different name? As I posted elsewhere, this file appears to be a .MP4 
with the wrong extension.

When using VLC to convert, you need to select something under "Profile". 
In this case, it would be "Video: Theora + Vorbis (OGG)".

A browser checks for the MIME type (should be video/ogg) provided by the 
server, and the codecs (Theora, Vorbis).

> https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/Capture_20161219_2.ogg 
> 
> 
> <https://github.com/dalekellytoo/website/blob/master/images/Capture_20161219_2.ogg> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,


-- 
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider
ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority
behind it." -- Albert Einstein

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