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Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #689406 > unrolled thread

Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome

Started byCrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
First post2025-04-23 09:11 -0400
Last post2025-04-25 01:27 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 258 — 14 participants

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Contents

  Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-23 09:11 -0400
    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-24 12:43 +0000
      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-24 09:07 -0400
        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-25 01:25 +0000
          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-25 05:12 +0000
            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 02:53 +0000
          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-04-25 19:27 +0000
            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-25 15:38 -0400
            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-26 00:42 +0000
      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-24 13:31 +0000
        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-24 09:47 -0400
          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-25 01:28 +0000
          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-25 12:06 +0000
            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-25 23:16 +0000
              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-26 00:50 +0000
                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-26 01:21 +0000
                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 03:03 +0000
                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-26 07:34 +0000
                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 08:04 +0000
                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 03:00 +0000
                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-26 10:09 +0000
                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-26 05:53 -0500
                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-26 11:02 +0000
                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-26 23:00 +0000
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 07:24 +0000
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:50 +0000
                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:41 +0000
                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:50 +0000
                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:52 +0000
                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 06:35 +0000
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 07:18 +0000
                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:45 -0500
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:44 +0000
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-28 17:05 -0500
                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-28 17:11 -0500
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:51 +0000
                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 09:02 -0400
                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 14:08 +0000
                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 11:07 -0400
                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:24 +0000
                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-30 09:13 -0400
                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:15 +0000
                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-01 14:42 +0000
                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-02 15:03 +0000
                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 20:33 +0000
                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-03 08:18 -0400
                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 21:34 +0000
                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 18:43 -0400
                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 00:17 +0000
                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 21:47 -0400
                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 07:43 +0000
                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 09:13 -0400
                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 20:16 +0000
                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-05-02 20:47 +0000
                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 19:31 -0400
                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 00:13 +0000
                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 22:16 -0400
                                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 10:50 +0000
                                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 09:31 -0400
                                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-04 09:51 +0000
                                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 08:23 -0400
                                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-04 13:38 +0000
                                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 18:00 -0400
                                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-05 11:03 +0000
                                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-05 08:40 -0400
                                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-05-04 14:40 +0000
                                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-04 11:52 -0400
                                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 20:05 +0000
                                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 04:50 +0000
                                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-05-05 18:50 +0000
                                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 14:55 -0400
                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 04:29 +0000
                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-02 15:20 +0000
                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 11:28 -0400
                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 00:11 +0000
                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 20:15 -0400
                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 01:02 +0000
                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 22:24 -0400
                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 10:56 +0000
                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-03 08:29 -0400
                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 10:39 -0400
                                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-04 10:04 +0000
                                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 08:24 -0400
                                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 20:10 +0000
                                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 04:48 +0000
                                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-05 08:36 -0400
                                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 17:06 +0000
                                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-05 14:04 -0400
                                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 18:59 +0000
                                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-05 15:24 -0400
                                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 02:21 +0000
                                                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-06 11:00 -0400
                                                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 20:58 +0000
                                                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-06 19:43 -0400
                                                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-08 00:29 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-08 03:28 +0000
                                                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-08 10:02 -0400
                                                                                Linux again (was: Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome) vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-05-07 04:18 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Linux again (was: Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome) Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-05-07 00:56 -0400
                                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 07:13 +0000
                                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-06 08:04 +0000
                                                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 20:43 +0000
                                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 06:54 +0000
                                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-05-07 17:30 +0000
                                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-05-08 07:06 -0400
                                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 06:53 +0000
                                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-06 06:42 +0000
                                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-06 11:02 -0400
                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 19:36 +0000
                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 04:02 +0000
                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 08:16 -0400
                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 21:23 +0000
                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 19:45 -0400
                                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 02:06 +0000
                                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 07:37 -0400
                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 18:17 +0000
                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:03 +0000
                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 13:52 -0400
                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 22:49 +0000
                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-26 22:57 +0000
                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 07:33 +0000
                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:51 +0000
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:02 +0000
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:47 +0000
                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-04-27 09:12 +0000
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-28 01:15 +0000
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:51 +0000
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-04-28 08:37 -0400
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:48 +0000
                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:49 -0500
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:45 +0000
                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 06:33 +0000
                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 07:31 +0000
                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:53 +0000
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-27 08:51 -0500
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:33 +0000
                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 08:45 -0400
                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-28 17:42 -0500
                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 18:51 -0400
                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-29 02:26 +0000
                                Re: Evolution (was Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome) Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:54 +0000
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:33 +0000
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:56 +0000
                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:59 +0000
                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 01:06 +0000
                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:27 +0000
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:14 +0000
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-29 02:53 +0000
                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 14:01 +0000
                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-10 01:05 +0000
                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-26 08:15 -0400
                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-26 23:03 +0000
                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 06:46 +0000
                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-27 07:41 +0000
                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-27 14:30 -0400
                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 02:51 +0000
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 08:33 -0400
                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-27 06:45 +0000
                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 08:15 +0000
                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:35 +0000
                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-27 14:41 -0400
                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 07:42 +0000
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-28 11:40 +0000
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 12:25 +0000
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 08:49 -0400
                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-28 18:03 +0000
                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 20:01 +0000
                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 16:47 -0400
                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 06:15 +0000
                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 09:23 -0400
                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 14:21 +0000
                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 11:24 -0400
                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 21:11 +0000
                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 17:33 -0400
                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 22:14 +0000
                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 19:37 -0400
                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-30 00:25 +0000
                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-30 00:30 +0000
                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 18:22 -0700
                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-30 01:39 +0000
                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-30 08:53 -0400
                                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 13:54 +0000
                                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 13:28 -0400
                                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-02 00:09 +0000
                                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 21:45 -0400
                                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-02 15:31 +0000
                                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 11:41 -0400
                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:15 +0000
                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-30 09:07 -0400
                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-29 21:03 -0400
                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 22:56 +0000
                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 19:48 -0400
                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:13 +0000
                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 22:51 +0000
                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 03:49 +0000
                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 22:49 +0000
                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 19:45 -0400
                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-03 05:27 +0000
                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 08:18 -0400
                                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-04 06:58 +0000
                                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-04 08:14 -0400
                                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 04:41 +0000
                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:11 +0000
                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-29 15:26 +0000
                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 08:56 -0700
                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-29 16:10 +0000
                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 09:48 -0700
                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-30 10:10 +0000
                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-30 09:05 -0400
                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:24 +0000
                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-05-01 17:04 +0000
                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-05-01 11:01 -0700
                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 19:18 -0400
                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-01 23:30 +0000
                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-02 16:01 +0000
                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-01 18:47 -0400
                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 23:26 +0000
                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 01:09 +0000
                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 03:56 +0000
                                                      Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-03 05:42 +0000
                                                        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 10:45 +0000
                                                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-04 07:02 +0000
                                                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-04 08:39 +0000
                                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-05 04:44 +0000
                                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-05 06:24 +0000
                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-30 18:20 +0000
                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-01 14:01 +0000
                                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-02 23:15 +0000
                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-02 19:55 -0400
                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-03 05:32 +0000
                                                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-05-03 08:23 -0400
                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-05-03 01:06 +0000
                                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-05-03 05:36 +0000
                                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-05-03 04:14 +0000
                                  Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:26 +0000
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 08:48 -0400
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 19:58 +0000
                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-28 16:46 -0400
                                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-29 06:11 +0000
                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:38 +0000
                          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-29 00:11 +0000
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-28 17:20 -0700
                              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-29 01:27 +0000
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-04-29 02:52 +0000
                            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-29 13:29 +0000
                    Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> - 2025-04-27 08:13 +0000
            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-26 02:57 +0000
        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-04-24 18:54 +0000
        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-24 20:35 +0000
          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-24 14:04 -0700
            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-24 17:26 -0400
            Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-24 21:45 +0000
              Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-24 21:48 +0000
                Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-24 14:57 -0700
        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-04-24 21:53 +0000
          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-24 14:58 -0700
          Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-25 01:29 +0000
        Re: Fedora proposing to remove X11 Gnome RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> - 2025-04-25 01:27 +0000

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#689531

FromBorax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com>
Date2025-04-27 07:33 +0000
Message-ID<slrn100rnee.3vb.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh>
In reply to#689510
On 2025-04-26, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 10:09:51 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>
>> That is, they want to work on what they want to work on, rather than
>> what needs to be done.
>
> Or rather, they work on what they see as needs to be done.
>
> If you want them to work on what you see as needing to be done, by all 
> means hire them and pay them for it.

If you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.

The problem is you have software developers who think the solution is to
write more code.  Write another protocol.  Write a new framework.  Its
what they CAN do.

What you see needing to be done, is based on what your profession is.
Its inheritly biased.  Ask those in finance what needs to be done to fix
society, and you'll get a financial solution.  Ask a priest, they'll say
its spiritial.  Ask a hipster hacker, and they'll think its some AI or
framework or some platform.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689540

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2025-04-27 08:51 +0000
Message-ID<vukr6f$dud6$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#689531
On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 07:33:34 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:

> The problem is you have software developers who think the solution is to
> write more code.  Write another protocol.  Write a new framework.  Its
> what they CAN do.

Show us your better way in action, then.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689586

FromBorax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com>
Date2025-04-28 12:02 +0000
Message-ID<slrn100uri5.ju6.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh>
In reply to#689540
On 2025-04-27, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 07:33:34 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>
>> The problem is you have software developers who think the solution is to
>> write more code.  Write another protocol.  Write a new framework.  Its
>> what they CAN do.
>
> Show us your better way in action, then.


Sometimes the better way is not to start again from scratch and throw
everything out.

There are plenty of examples of change which is managed well.

Remember, my issue not with Wayland per se.  I think you misread here.
If people want to build a replacements to X11, go ahead.  However, if
you do so, you're going to have to accmodate that an existing one
exists, with a LOT of legacy and will stay for a while.

I'll give another example.  The D Language, which is a multiparadigm
language, based on C (kind of like C++), can directly link C libraries,
and to some extent C++ libraries.  D code which is also valid C code,
will behave the same in D and C.  There is a "better C" mode where you
can write D code that you can link in with your C or C++ programs.  This
allows you to "transition" without throwing everything away.

C++ did the same.  It suffered because it was compatible with C (almost
all C code is valid C++ code), but this was also the reason for its
success.  People bag it, but people also use it.

Windows dropped backwards compatibility when it was no longer really an
issue for the vast, vast majority.

I didn't leave Fedora because Wayland exists, I left Fedora because I
think they were approaching removing X11 too early.  X software will
transition to Wayland (such as DE's and Window Managers), but this
decision is premature.  XFce support for Wayland is in its infancy.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689647

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2025-04-29 02:47 +0000
Message-ID<vupekg$pu5b$9@dont-email.me>
In reply to#689586
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:02:13 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:

> On 2025-04-27, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 07:33:34 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>>
>>> The problem is you have software developers who think the solution is
>>> to write more code.  Write another protocol.  Write a new framework. 
>>> Its what they CAN do.
>>
>> Show us your better way in action, then.
> 
> Sometimes the better way is not to start again from scratch and throw
> everything out.

You already said that.

> There are plenty of examples of change which is managed well.

But you don’t count the X11-to-Wayland transition as one of those? How 
would you have handled it?

> I didn't leave Fedora because Wayland exists, I left Fedora because
> I think they were approaching removing X11 too early.

X11 has been languishing in “legacy mode” for years.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689542

FromStéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
Date2025-04-27 09:12 +0000
Message-ID<680df502$0$5208$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to#689531
Le 27-04-2025, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> a écrit :
> On 2025-04-26, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 10:09:51 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>>
>>> That is, they want to work on what they want to work on, rather than
>>> what needs to be done.
>>
>> Or rather, they work on what they see as needs to be done.
>>
>> If you want them to work on what you see as needing to be done, by all 
>> means hire them and pay them for it.
>
> If you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.
>
> The problem is you have software developers who think the solution is to
> write more code.  Write another protocol.  Write a new framework.  Its
> what they CAN do.

Sometimes, when something is conceptually broken, the only way is to
start from scratch. That's what happened for Wayland. Nobody wanted to
fix the X11 issues. If you want the X11 issues being fixed instead of
the project being left alone, you have solutions. You can do the work
yourself. Or, you can pay developers to do the work for you.

-- 
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689567

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2025-04-28 01:15 +0000
Message-ID<vumkr7$21v0f$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#689542
On 27 Apr 2025 09:12:34 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> Nobody wanted to fix the X11 issues.

The whole architecture was full of baggage from the 1980s. Consider: in 
addition to the graphics library, it even included a font server. Clearly 
the assumption was that all rendering of screen images was going to happen 
on the display server, not in the client app. That assumption became more 
and more anachronistic over time.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689585

FromBorax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com>
Date2025-04-28 11:51 +0000
Message-ID<slrn100uqtl.ju6.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh>
In reply to#689542
On 2025-04-27, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
> Le 27-04-2025, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>> On 2025-04-26, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 10:09:51 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>>>
>>>> That is, they want to work on what they want to work on, rather than
>>>> what needs to be done.
>>>
>>> Or rather, they work on what they see as needs to be done.
>>>
>>> If you want them to work on what you see as needing to be done, by all 
>>> means hire them and pay them for it.
>>
>> If you have a hammer, every problem is a nail.
>>
>> The problem is you have software developers who think the solution is to
>> write more code.  Write another protocol.  Write a new framework.  Its
>> what they CAN do.
>
> Sometimes, when something is conceptually broken, the only way is to
> start from scratch. That's what happened for Wayland. Nobody wanted to
> fix the X11 issues. If you want the X11 issues being fixed instead of
> the project being left alone, you have solutions. You can do the work
> yourself. Or, you can pay developers to do the work for you.
>

Its like IPv6.  It fixes the shortcomings of IPv4, but that transition
will happen slow (perhaps too slow), and IPv4 will go when its no longer
needed.

X11 *will* go one day, but tech companies do like to push change, force
it, regardless of whether customers ask or not.

When the "auto" keyword was added to C++11, it could have created a
problem for legacy code which used 'auto' in a different context.  The
committee checked a lot of code to see whether it would cause an issue
and determined it wouldn't break code.  This is how responsible adults
work.

Silicon Valley yahoos believe in "move fast and break things".

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689594

FromChris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us>
Date2025-04-28 08:37 -0400
Message-ID<vunsr6$3999j$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#689585
Borax Man wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> Silicon Valley yahoos believe in "move fast and break things".

The same strategy with Microsoft... it means they can sell new
"versions".

    https://www.miamiherald.com/living/liv-columns-blogs/dave-barry/article1963171.html

    But my point is that because of computer weirdness, I regularly see an
    entire morning's work - sometimes as many as 18 words - get blipped away
    forever to the Planet of Lost Data. Needless to say, I use Microsoft
    Windows. I've been a loyal Windows man since the first version, which
    required you to write on the screen with crayons. Every year or so,
    Microsoft comes out with a new version, which Microsoft always swears is
    better and more reliable, and I always buy it. I bought Windows 2.0,
    Windows 3.0, Windows 3.1415926, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows
    RSVP, The Best of Windows, Windows Strikes Back, Windows Does Dallas, and
    Windows Let's All Buy Bill Gates a House the Size of Vermont. My computers
    keep having seizures, but I keep buying Windows versions, hoping I'll get
    lucky. I'm like the loser in the nightclub who keeps hitting on the hot
    babe. His shoes are squishing from the piña colada she poured on him, but
    he's thinking: "She's warming up to me!" I bring this all up because now
    Microsoft has a new version out, Windows XP, which according to everybody
    is the "most reliable Windows ever." To me, this is like saying that
    asparagus is "the most articulate vegetable ever." But still, I am tempted.
    "Maybe this will be the one, " I say to Buddy, as the two of us wait for
    the disks to be scanned.

-- 
I invented skydiving in 1989!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689648

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2025-04-29 02:48 +0000
Message-ID<vupemb$pu5b$10@dont-email.me>
In reply to#689585
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 11:51:17 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:

> When the "auto" keyword was added to C++11, it could have created a
> problem for legacy code which used 'auto' in a different context.  The
> committee checked a lot of code to see whether it would cause an issue
> and determined it wouldn't break code.  This is how responsible adults
> work.

Why not give us an example of responsible adulthood in action, by showing 
us how you would fix up X11 to prolong its life a bit further?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689548

Fromchrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
Date2025-04-27 08:49 -0500
Message-ID<m9ds0khdk1eehmn8181cu8c1s6th05ff6v@4ax.com>
In reply to#689531
Borax Man wrote:

>The problem is you have software developers who think the solution is to
>write more code.  Write another protocol.  Write a new framework.  Its
>what they CAN do.

Generally speaking, if it's not needed you won't get paid to do it.

There are lots of hobbies or unpaid past times, in the world.  Only a
fool ridicules others for how they choose to use their time.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689584

FromBorax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com>
Date2025-04-28 11:45 +0000
Message-ID<slrn100uqje.ju6.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh>
In reply to#689548
On 2025-04-27, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Borax Man wrote:
>
>>The problem is you have software developers who think the solution is to
>>write more code.  Write another protocol.  Write a new framework.  Its
>>what they CAN do.
>
> Generally speaking, if it's not needed you won't get paid to do it.
>
> There are lots of hobbies or unpaid past times, in the world.  Only a
> fool ridicules others for how they choose to use their time.
>

If you can convince someone it is needed, you will get paid for it.

Why do you think the DEI industry is a 10 billion dollar a year
industry?  Companies were made to think they needed it.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689524

FromRonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com>
Date2025-04-27 06:33 +0000
Message-ID<slrn100rjti.bh86.ronb02NOSPAM@3020m.home>
In reply to#689491
On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 2025-04-26, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2025-04-25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 12:06:53 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I understand the problems with X11, and supporting legacy, but you can't
>>>>> just throw out decades of work and break it because its hard.
>>>>
>>>> Somebody has to come along and offer to do the work. If nobody does, then 
>>>> yes, the existing developers are quite justified in saying “that’s not 
>>>> worth it, let’s just drop it”.
>>>
>>>
>>> But they ARE doing work.  They're creating new stuff that lack some
>>> degree of compatibility with the old.  This is the problem, devs work on
>>> what the want to work on, not what people need.
>>>
>>> In no one was willing to work on free software, that would make sense,
>>> but people are working on reinventing the wheel again and again.  We
>>> also had Mir.  TWO projects. Duplication.
>>
>> Kind of like Ubuntu trying to force Unity on everyone because "they knew 
>> better." Or Gnome making huge changes in Gnome 3 because they knew better 
>> than the user what the *should* want. That's basically why Linux Mint took 
>> off. Mate and Cinnamon were what a LOT of users wanted, not Gnome 3 or 
>> Unity.
>>
> What I was referring to problem, isn't limited to software.  It seems to
> be a Millenial trait in general, or of younger people.  That is, they
> want to work on what they want to work on, rather than what needs to be
> done.  People seeing their work as an opportunity to do what they think
> is best, rather than what *other* people need.  They think that "work"
> is just a way they can actualise themselves.  Companies bend towards
> this, catering to their needs, rather than the companies, or the
> customers needs.  We, the users, need our software to work.  If you want
> to work on it, your role is to stop our stuff breaking.
>
> Linus is "older school".  "Don't break userspace" is something hes
> stated.
>
> As I said, I don't object to modernising the graphical system, but you
> have to accept, have to accomodate the Unix Legacy.  If you don't want
> that Legacy, work on a new OS, where you *can* just architecture
> everything as you wish.

Can't argue with you here. I guess I misunderstood your point. Sorry. I tend 
to read too quickly sometimes.

-- 
Jesus sat with sinners: He didn't sin
with them. Know the difference.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#689530

FromBorax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com>
Date2025-04-27 07:31 +0000
Message-ID<slrn100rn9k.3vb.rotflol2@geidiprime.bvh>
In reply to#689524
On 2025-04-27, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2025-04-26, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2025-04-26, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2025-04-25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 12:06:53 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I understand the problems with X11, and supporting legacy, but you can't
>>>>>> just throw out decades of work and break it because its hard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Somebody has to come along and offer to do the work. If nobody does, then 
>>>>> yes, the existing developers are quite justified in saying “that’s not 
>>>>> worth it, let’s just drop it”.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But they ARE doing work.  They're creating new stuff that lack some
>>>> degree of compatibility with the old.  This is the problem, devs work on
>>>> what the want to work on, not what people need.
>>>>
>>>> In no one was willing to work on free software, that would make sense,
>>>> but people are working on reinventing the wheel again and again.  We
>>>> also had Mir.  TWO projects. Duplication.
>>>
>>> Kind of like Ubuntu trying to force Unity on everyone because "they knew 
>>> better." Or Gnome making huge changes in Gnome 3 because they knew better 
>>> than the user what the *should* want. That's basically why Linux Mint took 
>>> off. Mate and Cinnamon were what a LOT of users wanted, not Gnome 3 or 
>>> Unity.
>>>
>> What I was referring to problem, isn't limited to software.  It seems to
>> be a Millenial trait in general, or of younger people.  That is, they
>> want to work on what they want to work on, rather than what needs to be
>> done.  People seeing their work as an opportunity to do what they think
>> is best, rather than what *other* people need.  They think that "work"
>> is just a way they can actualise themselves.  Companies bend towards
>> this, catering to their needs, rather than the companies, or the
>> customers needs.  We, the users, need our software to work.  If you want
>> to work on it, your role is to stop our stuff breaking.
>>
>> Linus is "older school".  "Don't break userspace" is something hes
>> stated.
>>
>> As I said, I don't object to modernising the graphical system, but you
>> have to accept, have to accomodate the Unix Legacy.  If you don't want
>> that Legacy, work on a new OS, where you *can* just architecture
>> everything as you wish.
>
> Can't argue with you here. I guess I misunderstood your point. Sorry. I tend 
> to read too quickly sometimes.
>

Thats cool.  I think many people just have this belief that things
should be changed, reinvented.  I used to believe that too.  When I was
young, naive, I thought that "We've always done it this way" was a poor
reason to NOT change a system.  Now that I'm more experienced, and been
through many changes, implemented many, I'm more skeptical about
changing things which appear on the surface to not be optimal,
especially when you think you know better.

There are other things to consider than simply "is this new method more
efficient".  On paper, it can appear better, but the world doesn't work
according to 'on paper'.  Its messy, and changing crappy legacy X to
shiny new Y should be done with real, real care, and often, not at all.

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#689541

FromLawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2025-04-27 08:53 +0000
Message-ID<vukrah$dud6$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#689530
On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 07:31:00 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:

> I think many people just have this belief that things
> should be changed, reinvented.

It’s not just some “belief”. What happens in the Open Source world is, 
somebody comes along and shows us a way that is provably better. And so, 
inevitably, the old ways get abandoned in favour of the new.

Tradition is a strong brake on this (you yourself are an obvious example), 
but in a competitive environment, the new, superior way wins out, sooner 
or later.

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#689549

Fromchrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
Date2025-04-27 08:51 -0500
Message-ID<agds0ktf7t0qs767442pg1i384ppbhc2cp@4ax.com>
In reply to#689541
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> Borax Man wrote:
>>
>> I think many people just have this belief that things
>> should be changed, reinvented.
>
>It’s not just some “belief”. What happens in the Open Source world is, 
>somebody comes along and shows us a way that is provably better. And so, 
>inevitably, the old ways get abandoned in favour of the new.

It's how evolution works.

-- 
"You freetards nauseate me."  -  "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark

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#689579

FromRonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com>
Date2025-04-28 07:33 +0000
Message-ID<slrn100ubr2.cuiu.ronb02NOSPAM@3020m.home>
In reply to#689549
On 2025-04-27, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Borax Man wrote:
>>>
>>> I think many people just have this belief that things
>>> should be changed, reinvented.
>>
>>It’s not just some “belief”. What happens in the Open Source world is, 
>>somebody comes along and shows us a way that is provably better. And so, 
>>inevitably, the old ways get abandoned in favour of the new.
>
> It's how evolution works.

Actually it's not "evolution," as these decisions are made by someone. They 
are designed (the designer often has limited foresight). These changes don't 
happen accidentally. But, if you want to call it evolution, just remember 
there are a lot "dead ends" in so-called "evolution."

-- 
Jesus sat with sinners: He didn't sin
with them. Know the difference.

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#689598

FromCrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
Date2025-04-28 08:45 -0400
Message-ID<8MKPP.534544$541.449043@fx47.iad>
In reply to#689579
On 2025-04-28 03:33, RonB wrote:
> On 2025-04-27, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Borax Man wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think many people just have this belief that things
>>>> should be changed, reinvented.
>>>
>>> It’s not just some “belief”. What happens in the Open Source world is,
>>> somebody comes along and shows us a way that is provably better. And so,
>>> inevitably, the old ways get abandoned in favour of the new.
>>
>> It's how evolution works.
> 
> Actually it's not "evolution," as these decisions are made by someone. They
> are designed (the designer often has limited foresight). These changes don't
> happen accidentally. But, if you want to call it evolution, just remember
> there are a lot "dead ends" in so-called "evolution."

Many dead ends, actually. That is why a good number of evolutionists 
have gone on to become devout Christians. I would recommend 
<https://www.amazon.com/Darwinian-Delusion-Russ-Miller/dp/0943247969> as 
a reading for anyone is interested in the topic.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
LibreOffice supporter
John 14:6

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#689635

Fromchrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
Date2025-04-28 17:42 -0500
Message-ID<j0101ktbbko0m4h91pqmevj00n3bmdj7g7@4ax.com>
In reply to#689598
CrudeSausage wrote:

>On 2025-04-28 03:33, RonB wrote:
>> On 2025-04-27, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Borax Man wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I think many people just have this belief that things
>>>>> should be changed, reinvented.
>>>>
>>>> It?s not just some ?belief?. What happens in the Open Source world is,
>>>> somebody comes along and shows us a way that is provably better. And so,
>>>> inevitably, the old ways get abandoned in favour of the new.
>>>
>>> It's how evolution works.
>> 
>> Actually it's not "evolution," as these decisions are made by someone. They
>> are designed (the designer often has limited foresight). These changes don't
>> happen accidentally. But, if you want to call it evolution, just remember
>> there are a lot "dead ends" in so-called "evolution."

Of course there are.  My analogy is fine.

>Many dead ends, actually. That is why a good number of evolutionists 
>have gone on to become devout Christians.

Nonsense.

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#689636

FromCrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
Date2025-04-28 18:51 -0400
Message-ID<uDTPP.462738$Pbo3.457947@fx34.iad>
In reply to#689635
On 2025-04-28 18:42, chrisv wrote:
> CrudeSausage wrote:
> 
>> On 2025-04-28 03:33, RonB wrote:
>>> On 2025-04-27, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Borax Man wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think many people just have this belief that things
>>>>>> should be changed, reinvented.
>>>>>
>>>>> It?s not just some ?belief?. What happens in the Open Source world is,
>>>>> somebody comes along and shows us a way that is provably better. And so,
>>>>> inevitably, the old ways get abandoned in favour of the new.
>>>>
>>>> It's how evolution works.
>>>
>>> Actually it's not "evolution," as these decisions are made by someone. They
>>> are designed (the designer often has limited foresight). These changes don't
>>> happen accidentally. But, if you want to call it evolution, just remember
>>> there are a lot "dead ends" in so-called "evolution."
> 
> Of course there are.  My analogy is fine.
> 
>> Many dead ends, actually. That is why a good number of evolutionists
>> have gone on to become devout Christians.
> 
> Nonsense.

They're listed in the book I recommended. They can't come up with answer 
through their theory, so they eventually submit to Creationism.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
LibreOffice supporter
John 14:6

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#689644

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2025-04-29 02:26 +0000
Message-ID<m7arlrF6o8vU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#689636
On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 18:51:06 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> They're listed in the book I recommended. They can't come up with answer
> through their theory, so they eventually submit to Creationism.

They're overlooking the real answer -- I don't know. Going metaphysical 
when you can't figure out the physical is a cop out. 

I once had an apartment above a young Jehovah's Witnesses couple. They 
invited me for supper, and possible recruitment. They were surprised when 
I said evolutionary theory had too many holes for me to find it convincing 
but I wasn't going to accept their answer either.  I'm comfortable with 'I 
don't know'.

I've always been sort of a secret Lamarkian, some of whose theories may 
get dusted off in the study of transgenerational epigenetic inheritance. 
Too bad Lysenko took that line of thought down a rat hole. 

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