Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #243146 > unrolled thread

Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL

Started by	Silver Slimer <slvrslmr@strtml.cm>
First post	2014-05-12 12:36 -0400
Last post	2014-05-13 09:08 -0700
Articles	20 on this page of 211 — 17 participants

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  Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <slvrslmr@strtml.cm> - 2014-05-12 12:36 -0400
    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-12 12:18 -0500
      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-12 13:07 -0500
        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <slvrslmr@strtml.cm> - 2014-05-12 14:53 -0400
          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-12 14:26 -0500
        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-12 13:31 -0500
        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-05-12 21:25 +0200
          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-12 14:47 -0500
      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 20:23 +0200
        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <slvrslmr@strtml.cm> - 2014-05-12 15:12 -0400
          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-12 14:38 -0500
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-12 15:13 -0500
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <slvrslmr@strtml.cm> - 2014-05-12 20:08 -0400
                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-12 17:19 -0700
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 17:51 -0700
                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-13 15:23 -0500
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-13 15:48 -0500
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 13:57 -0700
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 18:20 -0400
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 15:22 -0700
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-14 09:40 -0400
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 18:19 -0400
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-05-14 00:49 +0200
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 19:09 -0400
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-14 15:14 -0500
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2014-05-14 20:55 -0400
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-15 06:47 -0500
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 16:58 -0700
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-14 06:48 -0500
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 10:27 -0400
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-14 10:53 -0400
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 17:25 +0200
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 12:28 -0400
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 09:42 -0700
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-14 22:39 -0400
                                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 19:41 -0700
                                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-15 08:46 -0400
                                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-15 17:04 -0700
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 09:41 -0700
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 12:22 -0400
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 09:37 -0700
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 18:38 +0200
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 09:52 -0700
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 12:54 -0400
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-14 19:59 -0400
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 09:24 -0700
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 12:32 -0400
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-14 15:15 -0500
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-14 15:13 -0500
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 17:21 -0400
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-14 17:26 -0400
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 17:31 -0400
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-14 17:35 -0400
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 17:41 -0400
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-14 17:50 -0400
                                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 15:36 -0700
                                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 19:09 -0400
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-16 12:59 -0400
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-14 16:47 -0500
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2014-05-14 20:51 -0400
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-12 21:30 -0700
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <slvrslmr@strtml.cm> - 2014-05-12 20:05 -0400
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-13 15:21 -0500
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 14:45 +0200
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-13 17:38 -0400
      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <slvrslmr@strtml.cm> - 2014-05-12 14:48 -0400
        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-12 14:24 -0500
          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <slvrslmr@strtml.cm> - 2014-05-12 15:48 -0400
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2014-05-12 15:19 -0600
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-12 16:53 -0500
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2014-05-12 17:14 -0600
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <slvrslmr@strtml.cm> - 2014-05-12 20:19 -0400
                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-13 15:18 -0500
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 18:16 -0400
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-14 15:12 -0500
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 17:24 -0400
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-14 17:28 -0400
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 17:37 -0400
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-14 17:44 -0400
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 17:48 -0400
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-14 17:51 -0400
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-05-14 16:51 -0500
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 00:29 +0200
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 19:16 -0400
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-14 19:13 -0400
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 19:32 -0400
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-14 19:49 -0400
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 20:10 -0400
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-14 20:21 -0400
                                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 20:34 -0400
                                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 17:49 -0700
                                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-14 22:58 -0400
                                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-14 23:15 -0400
                                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-14 23:19 -0400
                                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 20:29 -0700
                                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 08:19 +0200
                                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-15 08:56 -0400
                                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-15 17:18 -0700
                                    Real Life girl$$$ aren't that hot.  Jeff-Relf.Me <@.> - 2014-05-15 03:21 -0700
                                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-15 08:49 -0400
                                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 08:17 +0200
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 17:30 -0700
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 17:32 -0700
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 17:21 -0700
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-13 07:02 -0500
                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 10:17 -0400
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 08:06 -0700
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 08:10 -0700
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 08:41 -0700
        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2014-05-12 15:19 -0600
          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <slvrslmr@strtml.cm> - 2014-05-12 20:13 -0400
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2014-05-12 18:40 -0600
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-12 21:22 -0400
                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com> - 2014-05-12 20:50 -0600
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 10:08 -0400
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 08:13 -0700
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2014-05-13 11:18 -0600
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 13:52 -0400
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2014-05-13 12:55 -0600
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 17:47 -0400
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2014-05-13 20:09 -0600
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 22:22 -0400
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 19:39 -0700
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 07:38 +0200
                                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 10:24 -0400
                                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 08:30 -0700
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 19:43 -0700
    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-13 11:21 +0100
      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 10:16 -0400
        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-13 15:37 +0100
          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 16:56 +0200
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-13 16:01 +0100
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-13 11:16 -0400
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 08:18 -0700
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-13 16:38 +0100
                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-13 12:27 -0400
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 09:42 -0700
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-13 18:35 +0100
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 10:39 -0700
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-14 09:41 -0400
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-14 09:45 -0400
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 08:33 -0700
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-14 15:58 +0100
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 08:25 -0700
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 09:12 -0700
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 09:29 -0700
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-14 17:35 +0100
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 18:40 +0200
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 09:48 -0700
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 09:50 -0700
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 09:42 -0700
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-14 17:57 +0100
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 10:07 -0700
                                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-14 18:36 +0100
                                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 10:51 -0700
                                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-14 18:55 +0100
                                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 11:51 -0700
                                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 14:41 -0400
                                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid> - 2014-05-14 20:48 +0200
                                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 14:50 -0400
                                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-14 14:51 -0400
                                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 12:04 -0700
                                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 12:07 -0700
                                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 14:30 -0700
                                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 11:55 -0700
                                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 10:09 -0700
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 09:49 -0700
                              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 09:54 -0700
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 17:23 +0200
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 08:39 -0700
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 08:33 -0700
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-13 12:26 -0400
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 18:51 +0200
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-13 18:33 +0100
                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-14 09:21 -0400
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-14 09:38 -0400
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 17:21 +0200
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-14 15:54 +0100
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-14 12:14 -0400
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 18:36 +0200
                      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-14 17:46 +0100
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 09:54 -0700
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 10:03 -0700
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 19:34 +0200
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 10:44 -0700
                        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-14 19:27 -0400
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-14 16:56 -0700
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 08:14 +0200
                          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-15 10:18 +0100
                            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com> - 2014-05-15 11:31 +0200
          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 10:59 -0400
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-13 16:02 +0100
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 11:11 -0400
                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 08:17 -0700
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 08:39 -0700
                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-13 16:37 +0100
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 11:45 -0400
                    Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL White Spirit <wspirit@homechoice.co.uk> - 2014-05-13 16:58 +0100
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 08:50 -0700
                  Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 09:08 -0700
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-13 11:06 -0400
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c> - 2014-05-13 11:11 -0400
                Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 08:13 -0700
      Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-05-13 11:30 -0400
        Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-13 11:34 -0400
          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 08:38 -0700
          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 08:48 -0700
            Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> - 2014-05-13 11:21 -0600
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 10:28 -0700
              Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 10:43 -0700
          Re: Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-05-13 09:08 -0700

Page 1 of 11 [1] 2 3 … 11 Next page →

#243146 — Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL

From	Silver Slimer <slvrslmr@strtml.cm>
Date	2014-05-12 12:36 -0400
Subject	Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL
Message-ID	<lkqtan$hhi$1@dont-email.me>

Some of it might explain why most new games use DirectX rather than
OpenGL which would have made it easy to port games to all three platforms.

http://richg42.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/things-that-drive-me-nuts-about-opengl.html?spref=tw

Things that drive me nuts about OpenGL
Here's a brain dump of the things that sometimes drive me crazy about
OpenGL. (Note these are strictly my own opinions, not those of Valve or
my coworkers. I'm also in a ranty-type mood today after grappling with
OpenGL for several years now..) My major motivation to posting this: the
GL API needs a reboot because IMO Mantle/D3D12 are going to most likely
eat it for lunch soon, so we should start talking and thinking about
this stuff now.

Some are minor issues, and some are specific to tracing the API, but all
these issues add up to API "friction" that sometimes make it difficult
to encourage other devs to get into the GL API or ecosystem:

20 years of legacy, needs a reboot and major simplification pass

Circle the wagons around a core-style API only with no compatibility
mode cruft.
Simplify, KISS principle, "if in doubt throw it out"!
Mantle and D3D12 are going to thoroughly leave GL behind (again!) on the
performance and developer "mindshare" axes very soon.
Global context state and the binding pattern sucks. The DSA (direct
state access)-style API should be standard/required.

Some bitter medicine/tough love: Most devs will take the easy path and
port their PS4/Xbone rendering code to D3D12/Mantle. They will not
bother to re-write their entire rendering pipeline to use
super-aggressive batching, etc. like the GL community has been recently
recommending to get perf up. GL will be treated like a second-class
citizen and porting target until the API is modernized and greatly
simplified.

GL context creation hell:

Creating modern GL contexts can be hair raisingly and mind numbingly
tricky and incredibly error prone ("trampoline" contexts anyone?). The
process is so error prone, and platform (and occasionally even driver)
specific that I would almost always recommend to never go directly to
the glX, wgl, etc. API's, and instead always use a library such as SDL
or GLFW (and something like GLEW to retrieve the function/extension
pointers).

The de-facto requirement to always pick from a small set of large 3rd
party libraries just to get a real context rolling sucks. The API should
be simplified and standardized so using a 3rd party lib shouldn't be a
requirement just to get a real context going.

The thread's current context may be an implied "this" pointer:

Function pointers returned by GetProcAddress() cannot (or should not -
depending on the platform!) be used globally because they may be
strongly tied to the context ("context-dependent" vs.
"context-independent" in GL-speak). In other words, calling
GetProcAddress() on one context and using the returned func pointer on
another is either bad form or just crashes.
So is GL a C API or not?
Can we just simplify and standardize all this cruft?

glGet() API deficiencies:

This is probably too tracing specific, but it impacts regular devs
indirectly because if the tools suck or are non-existent because the API
is hard to trace your life as a developer will be harder.
The glGet() series of API's (glGetIntegerv, glGetTexImage, etc.) don't
have a "max_size" parameter, so it's possible for the driver to
overwrite the passed in buffer depending on the passed in parameters or
even the global context state. These functions should accept a
"max_size" parameter and the functions should fail if the supplied
max_size is too small, not overwrite memory.
Computing the exact size of texture buffers the driver will read or
write depends on various global context state - bad bad bad.
There are hundreds of possible glGet() pname enum's, some accepted by
only some drivers. If you're writing a tracer or some sort of debug
helper, there is no official way to determine how many values will be
written by the driver given a specific pname enum. There are no official
tables to determine if the indexed variants of glGet() can be used with
a specified enum, or determine the optimal (lossless) type to use given
a specific enum.
Also, the behavior of indexed vs. non-indexed gets & sets is not always
clear to new users of the API.

glGetError()

There is no glSetLastError() API like Win32, making tracing needlessly
complex.
Some apps never call it, some call it once per frame, some only call it
while creating resources. Some call it thousands of times at init, and
never again. I've seen major shipped GL apps with per-frame GL errors.
(Is this normal? Does the developer even know?)

Can't query key things such as texture targets

(I know some of this is being worked on - thanks Cass!) This makes
tracing/snapshotting more complex due to shadowing.
Shadowing deeply interacts with glGetError()'s (we can't update our
shadow until we know the call succeeded, which involves a call to
glGetError(), which absorbs the context's current GL error requiring
even more fancy footwork to not diverge the traced app's view of GL
errors).
About getting rid of all glGet()'s: IMO either all state should be
queryable (which is almost the case today), or the API should be written
with maximum perf and scalability in mind like D3D12/Mantle. The value
added by the API is clearly understood in either of these extremes.
Getting rid of glGet()'s will make writing tracers & context
snapshotters even trickier.

DSA (Direct State Access) API variants are still not standard and
used/supported everywhere

DSA can make a huge difference to call overhead in some apps (such as
Source1's GL backend). Just get rid of the reliance on global state,
please, and make DSA standard for once and for all.

Official spec is still not complete in 2014:

The XML spec still lacks strongly typed param information everywhere.
For example:

<command>
<proto>void <name>glBindVertexArray</name></proto>
<param><ptype>GLuint</ptype> <name>array</name></param>
<glx type="render" opcode="350"/>
</command>

apitrace's glapi.py is still the only known public, reliable source of
this information that I know of:

GlFunction(Void, "glBindVertexArray", [(GLarray, "array")]),

Notice how glapi.py defines the type as "GLarray", while the official
spec just has the nondescript "GLuint" type.

Add glGet info() to official spec: Mentioned above. How many values does
the pname enum return? What are the optimal types to use to losslessly
retrieve the driver's shadow of this state? Is the pname ok to use with
the indexed variants?

GLSL version of the week hell:

For early versions, the GLSL version may not sync up with the GL version
it was first defined in, making things even more needlessly confusing.
And this is before you add in things like GLSL extensions (*not* GL
extensions). Can be overwhelming to beginners.

No equivalent of standard/official D3DX lib+tools for GL:

Texture/pixel format conversion helpers that don't rely on using the
driver or a GL context
KTX format interchange hell: The few tools that read/write the KTX
format (GL's equivalent of DDS) can't always read/write eachother's files.
Devs just need the equivalent of Direct3D's DXTEX tool, with source.
The KTX examples just show how to load a KTX file into a GL texture. We
need tools to convert KTX files to/from other standard formats, such as
DDS, PNG, etc.
A GLSL compiler should be part of this lib (just like you can compile
HLSL shaders with D3DX).

GL extensions are written as diffs vs the official spec

So if you're not a OpenGL Specification Expert it can be extremely
difficult to understand some/many extensions.

Related: The official spec is written for too many audiences. Most
consumers of the spec will not be experts in parsing it. The spec should
be divided up into a developer-friendly spec vs a deeper spec for the
driver writers. Extensions should not be pure delta's vs. the spec - who
can really understand that?

Documentation hell

We've got 20 years of GL API cruft out there that adds noise to Google
searching for GL API information, and beginners can get easily tripped
up by bad/legacy documentation/examples.

MakeCurrent() hell

Can be extremely expensive, hidden extra variable cost with some
extensions (I'm looking at you NV bindless texturing!), can crash
drivers (or even the GPU!) if called within a glBegin/glEnd bracket, etc.
The behavior and performance of this call needs to be better specified
and communicated to devs.

Drivers should not crash the GPU or CPU, or lock up when called in
undefined ways via the API

Should be obvious by now. Please hire real testers and bang on your drivers!
Better yet: Structure the API to minimize the # of undefined or unsafe
patterns that are even possible to express via the API.

Object deletion with multiple contexts, cross-context refcounting
rules, "zombie" objects:

Good luck if the object being deleted is currently bound on another context.
Trying to call glGet()'s on a deleted object (that is still partially
"live" because it's bound or attached somewhere) - behavior can differ
between drivers.
All of this is needless overhead/complexity IMO.
Makes 100% reliable snapshotting and restoring GL context state very,
very difficult.
I see world-class developers screw this up without knowing it, which is
a clear sign that the API and/or tool ecosystem is broken.

Shader compiling/program linking hell

Major performance implications to shader compiling/linking.
Tokenized shader programs work. Direct3D is the existence proof that
this approach works. The overall amount of pain GLSL has caused
developers porting from D3D and end users (due to slow load times) is
incredible, yet GL still only accepts textual GLSL shaders.
Performance drastically varies between drivers. Shader compiling can be
effectively a no-op on some drivers, but extremely expensive on others.
Program linking can take *huge* amounts of time.
Some drivers cache linked programs, some don't.
Program linking time can be unpredictable: fast if the program is
cached, but there's no way to query if the program is already cached or
not. Also no way to query if the driver even supports caching.
Some drivers support threaded compilation, some don't. No way to query
if the driver supports threaded compilation.
Some drivers just deadlock or have race conditions when you try to
exploit threaded compilation.
Just a bad API, making it hard to trace and snapshot: Shaders can be
detached after linking. Lots of linked program state is just not
queryable at all, requiring link time shadowing by tracers.
Just copy & paste what D3D is doing (again, it works and devs understand
it).

Difficult API to trace, replay, and snapshot/restore

Hurts tool ecosystem, ultimately impacts all users of API.
API should either be written to be easily traced/replayed/snapshotted,
or incredibly performant/scalable like Mantle/D3D12. Right now GL has
none of these properties, putting it in a bad spot from a value
proposition perspective.
API authors should focus more on VALUE ADDED and less on how things
should work, or how we are different from D3D because we're smarter.

Endless maze of GL functions (thousands of them!)

Hey - do we really need dozens of glVertexAttrib variants? Who really
even uses this API?
API needs a reboot/simplification pass. Boost the "signal to noise"
ratio, please.

Legacy complexities around v3.x API transition:

"Forward compatible", "compatibility" vs. "core" profiles etc. etc. etc.
Devs should not have to master this stuff to just use the API to render
shaded triangles.

Reliably locking a buffer with DISCARD-semantics on all drivers
without stalling the pipeline:

Do you use a map flag? BufferData() with NULL? Both, either, etc.?
What lock flag or flags do you use? Or does the driver just completely
ignore the flag?
Trivial in D3D, difficult to do reliably in GL without being an expert
or having direct access to driver developers.
This stuff is incredibly important!
Special note to driver developers: What separates the REAL driver devs
from wannabees is how well you implement and test stuff like this.
Pipeline stalling is not an option in 2014!

BufferSubData() stalls when called with "too much" data on threaded
drivers

No way to query what "too much" data is. Is it 4k? 8k? 256k?

Pipeline stalling

No official (or any) way to get a callback or debug message when the
driver decides to throw up its hands and insert a giant pipeline stall
into your rendering thread
This can be the #1 source of rendering bottlenecks, yet we still have
almost zero tools (or API's to help us build these tools) to track them down

Threaded drivers hell

Some manufacturers decide to forceably auto-enable their buggy
multithreaded drivers months after titles have been shipped & thoroughly
tested by the developer. (And to make matters worse, they do this
without informing the developer of the "app profile" change or additions.)
Some multithreaded drivers have buggy glGet()'s when threading is
enabled - makes snapshotting a nightmare.
No official way to query or control whether or not the driver will use
multithreading.
No way to specify to the driver that a tracer is active which may issue
a lot of glGet()'s (that the app would not normally do)
Bone headed threaded drivers that slow to an absolute crawl and stay
there when an app or tracer constantly issues glGet()'s (just use a
heuristic and automatically turn threading off!)

Timestamp queries can stall the pipeline on some drivers

Makes them useless for cross platform, reliable GPU profiling. GL spec
should strongly define when the driver is allowed to stall on these
queries. Unnecessary stalling should be redefined as a driver bug (by
sometimes lazy/incompetent driver developers who don't understand how
key these little API's can be).
For reference, NVidia does this stuff correctly. If you are a driver
writer working on pipeline query code, please measure your
implementation vs. NVidia's driver before bothering to release it.

GL is really X different API's (one per driver, sometimes per
platform!) masquerading as a single API.

You can't/shouldn't ship a GL product until after you've thoroughly
tested for correctness and performance on all drivers (in both threaded
and non-threaded modes). You will be surprised at the driver
differences. This came as a big shock to me after working for so long
with D3D.
This indicates to me that Khronos needs to be more proactive at testing
and validating the drivers. GL needs the equivalent of the WHQL process.

Additional things:

Extension hell:

One of the touted advantages of GL is its support for extensions. I
argue that extensions actually harm the API overall, not help it.

I've been through a large amount of major and minor GL callstreams
(intricately!) over the previous ~1.5 years. Excluding the driver devs
I've probably worked with more real GL callstreams than most devs out
there. Sadly, in many cases, some to many of the most advanced "modern"
extensions barely work yet (and sometimes vendors will even admit this
fact publicly). Or, if you try to use a cool-sounding extension you
quickly discover that you're pushing a little-used (and tested) path
down the driver and the thing is useless for all practical purposes.

From studying and working with the callstreams, it's apparent that devs
do a massive MIN() operation across the functionality implemented on the
available/targeted drivers. This typically means core profile v3.x,
maybe also a 4.x backend with very simple/safe operations. (Or it's a
small title that just uses compatiblity GL like it was still 1998 or
2003 - because that's all they need.) They don't bother with most
extensions (especially the "modern" ones) because they either don't work
reliably (because the driver paths that implement them are not tested on
real apps at all - the classic chicken and egg problem), or they are
only supported (sometimes barely) by 1 driver, or the value add just
isn't there to justify expanding the product testing matrix even more.

Additionally, some of these modern extensions are very difficult to
trace, which means that whatever debugging tools employed by the
developer aren't compatible with them. So you need a fallback anyway,
and if the devs must implement a fallback they might as well just ship
the fallback (which works everywhere) and not worry about the extension
(unless it adds a significant amount of value to the product).

So unless it's non-extended GL it might as well not be there to a large
number of devs who just want to ship a reliable/working product.

--
Silver Slimer
Wikipedia & OpenMedia Supporter

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#243164

From	JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet>
Date	2014-05-12 12:18 -0500
Message-ID	<slrnln20ih.ill.jedi@nomad.mishnet>
In reply to	#243146

On 2014-05-12, Silver Slimer <slvrslmr@strtml.cm> wrote:
> Some of it might explain why most new games use DirectX rather than
> OpenGL which would have made it easy to port games to all three platforms.

...and the fact that the monopoly desktop vendor has their own standard
that they like to push has nothing to do with it.

[deletia]

   It's also more than 3 platforms. It's more like 7+.

   Anything that's not Microsoft is going to require leaving Direct3D behind.

   Game consoles...

   All of those phones, tablets, and streamers...

   Linux or MacOS are just the tip of the iceberg.

-- 
	Sophocles wants his cut.                                |||
                                                               / | \

From	chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
Date	2014-05-12 13:07 -0500
Message-ID	<s932n9d8m1i4gopgjasgm2sf1uich5arf2@4ax.com>
In reply to	#243164

From	Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.invalid>
Date	2014-05-12 21:25 +0200
Message-ID	<lkr77a$vpq$13@solani.org>
In reply to	#243179

From	Hadron<hadronquark@gmail.com>
Date	2014-05-12 20:23 +0200
Message-ID	<871tvyzwie.fsf@gmail.com>
In reply to	#243164

From	Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Date	2014-05-12 17:19 -0700
Message-ID	<CF96B31F.371BF%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
In reply to	#243270

From	Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com>
Date	2014-05-12 17:51 -0700
Message-ID	<2a22fec0-3a89-453e-9a0c-82c6c9a115a7@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#243276

From	Silver Slimer <ndr@slvrlps.c>
Date	2014-05-13 18:20 -0400
Message-ID	<lku5s4$h7h$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#243492

Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL

Contents

#243146 — Things That Drive Me Nuts About OpenGL

#243164

#243179

#243195

#243202

#243197

#243201

#243209

#243187

#243200

#243218

#243220

#243270

#243276

#243295

#243489

#243492

#243495

#243521

#243522