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Re: Dimdows Decay Syndrome Continues

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  Re: Dimdows Decay Syndrome Continues Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-03-17 21:37 +0000
    Re: Dimdows Decay Syndrome Continues Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-03-18 13:31 +0000
      Re: Dimdows Decay Syndrome Continues Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-18 11:08 -0400
    Re: Dimdows Decay Syndrome Continues CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-18 11:04 -0400
      Re: Dimdows Decay Syndrome Continues Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-03-18 19:29 -0400
    Re: Dimdows Decay Syndrome Continues Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-06-02 22:53 +0000
      Re: Dimdows Decay Syndrome Continues Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-06-02 23:27 -0400

#687607 — Re: Dimdows Decay Syndrome Continues

On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 21:55:15 -0000 (UTC), I wrote:

> Many years ago, a software engineer named Fred Brooks predicted that
> some systems could get so complex that they would exceed a
> manageable threshold of complexity, where every attempt to fix a bug
> would just create new ones.
>
> Microsoft passed this point a long time ago.

Further evidence
<https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/03/this-months-windows-updates-are-removing-the-copilot-app-accidentally/>:
now a Dimdows update deletes your Copilot app and taskbar icon, and
the only workaround is to put it all back again yourself:

    Microsoft says it is "working on a resolution to address the
    issue" but that users who want to get Copilot back can reinstall
    the app from the Microsoft Store and repin it to the taskbar, the
    same process you use to install Copilot on PCs where it has been
    removed.

This is why they say, Windows is a great OS -- if your time is worth
nothing.

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#687621

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 21:55:15 -0000 (UTC), I wrote:
> 
> > Many years ago, a software engineer named Fred Brooks predicted that
> > some systems could get so complex that they would exceed a
> > manageable threshold of complexity, where every attempt to fix a bug
> > would just create new ones.
> >
> > Microsoft passed this point a long time ago.
> 
> Further evidence
> <https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/03/this-months-windows-updates-are-removing-the-copilot-app-accidentally/>:
> now a Dimdows update deletes your Copilot app and taskbar icon, and
> the only workaround is to put it all back again yourself:

  "deletes your Copilot app" "from *SOME* Windows 11 PCs"

  Perhaps another case of thousands in billions, like your previous FUD?

  Anyway, the Copilot app did not get deleted from my system. Sorry
about that. (There never was a Taskbar icon, so a tad hard to delete
that.)

  Let's hear from others, who - unlike you - actually have/use this
stuff.

>     Microsoft says it is "working on a resolution to address the
>     issue" but that users who want to get Copilot back can reinstall
>     the app from the Microsoft Store and repin it to the taskbar, the
>     same process you use to install Copilot on PCs where it has been
>     removed.
> 
> This is why they say, Windows is a great OS -- if your time is worth
> nothing.

  Well, it seems to keep *you* quite busy.

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#687625

On Tue, 3/18/2025 9:31 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 21:55:15 -0000 (UTC), I wrote:
>>
>>> Many years ago, a software engineer named Fred Brooks predicted that
>>> some systems could get so complex that they would exceed a
>>> manageable threshold of complexity, where every attempt to fix a bug
>>> would just create new ones.
>>>
>>> Microsoft passed this point a long time ago.
>>
>> Further evidence
>> <https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/03/this-months-windows-updates-are-removing-the-copilot-app-accidentally/>:
>> now a Dimdows update deletes your Copilot app and taskbar icon, and
>> the only workaround is to put it all back again yourself:
> 
>   "deletes your Copilot app" "from *SOME* Windows 11 PCs"
> 
>   Perhaps another case of thousands in billions, like your previous FUD?
> 
>   Anyway, the Copilot app did not get deleted from my system. Sorry
> about that. (There never was a Taskbar icon, so a tad hard to delete
> that.)
> 
>   Let's hear from others, who - unlike you - actually have/use this
> stuff.
> 
>>     Microsoft says it is "working on a resolution to address the
>>     issue" but that users who want to get Copilot back can reinstall
>>     the app from the Microsoft Store and repin it to the taskbar, the
>>     same process you use to install Copilot on PCs where it has been
>>     removed.
>>
>> This is why they say, Windows is a great OS -- if your time is worth
>> nothing.
> 
>   Well, it seems to keep *you* quite busy.
> 

All I got, was this lousy T-shirt.

   [Picture]

    https://i.postimg.cc/FFZzjH9B/do-the-hokey-pokey.gif

On several OS installs here, this pops right up on the screen,
claiming it is installing itself or something. I clicked the "X"
but evidence is, I wasn't fast enough. Now I have to do
the hokey-pokey. That's what it's all about.

If you're wondering when that one came in, you can see the
muddy footprints on the floor, here.

   [Picture]

    https://i.postimg.cc/y6QB1g6s/Reliability-Monitor-Office-Hub-Incoming.gif

*******

The CoPilot icon on the Task bar, second from left ?
Naw, that's still there. On all the OSes I've looked at recently.

   [Picture]

    https://i.postimg.cc/vZXCzC1M/Co-Pilot-App.gif

This is the thing running in the picture. That gives the package name
if you need it for some reason.

   "C:\Program Files\WindowsApps\Microsoft.Copilot_1.25014.121.0_x64_8wekyb3d8bbwe\CopilotNative.exe"

  Paul







   Paul

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#687624

On 2025-03-17 17:37, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 21:55:15 -0000 (UTC), I wrote:
> 
>> Many years ago, a software engineer named Fred Brooks predicted that
>> some systems could get so complex that they would exceed a
>> manageable threshold of complexity, where every attempt to fix a bug
>> would just create new ones.
>>
>> Microsoft passed this point a long time ago.
> 
> Further evidence
> <https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/03/this-months-windows-updates-are-removing-the-copilot-app-accidentally/>:
> now a Dimdows update deletes your Copilot app and taskbar icon, and
> the only workaround is to put it all back again yourself:
> 
>      Microsoft says it is "working on a resolution to address the
>      issue" but that users who want to get Copilot back can reinstall
>      the app from the Microsoft Store and repin it to the taskbar, the
>      same process you use to install Copilot on PCs where it has been
>      removed.
> 
> This is why they say, Windows is a great OS -- if your time is worth
> nothing.

I can't disagree with the last part. Unsurprisingly, even yesterday, I 
ran an sfc /scannow & dism /online /cleanup-image /scanhealth 
combination, and I wasn't surprised to discover that the system once 
again had components needing to be repaired. The machine is always put 
to suspend as it should be and shut down properly, yet Windows breaks 
even when you use it properly. I can only imagine how "slow" the machine 
gets for users who don't know about these repair options and the 
constant need to execute them.

-- 
God be with you,

CrudeSausage
John 14:6

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#687635

On Tue, 3/18/2025 11:04 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
> On 2025-03-17 17:37, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 21:55:15 -0000 (UTC), I wrote:
>>
>>> Many years ago, a software engineer named Fred Brooks predicted that
>>> some systems could get so complex that they would exceed a
>>> manageable threshold of complexity, where every attempt to fix a bug
>>> would just create new ones.
>>>
>>> Microsoft passed this point a long time ago.
>>
>> Further evidence
>> <https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/03/this-months-windows-updates-are-removing-the-copilot-app-accidentally/>:
>> now a Dimdows update deletes your Copilot app and taskbar icon, and
>> the only workaround is to put it all back again yourself:
>>
>>      Microsoft says it is "working on a resolution to address the
>>      issue" but that users who want to get Copilot back can reinstall
>>      the app from the Microsoft Store and repin it to the taskbar, the
>>      same process you use to install Copilot on PCs where it has been
>>      removed.
>>
>> This is why they say, Windows is a great OS -- if your time is worth
>> nothing.
> 
> I can't disagree with the last part. Unsurprisingly, even yesterday, I ran an sfc /scannow & dism /online /cleanup-image /scanhealth combination, and I wasn't surprised to discover that the system once again had components needing to be repaired. The machine is always put to suspend as it should be and shut down properly, yet Windows breaks even when you use it properly. I can only imagine how "slow" the machine gets for users who don't know about these repair options and the constant need to execute them.
> 

PS> dism /Online /Cleanup-image /ScanHealth

Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool
Version: 10.0.22621.2792

Image Version: 10.0.22631.5039

[==========================100.0%==========================] No component store corruption detected.
The operation completed successfully.

PS>

I don't sleep or hibernate or fast start.
Notice how clean my stuff is. If there is a
change of state from S0, it's a shutdown, where the
OS dismounts the file system before termination. It
flushes any caches (the OS has a write cache in RAM,
the cache normally being flushed).

*******

Deployment Image Servicing and Management

dism /Online /Cleanup-image /ScanHealth
dism /Online /Cleanup-image /CheckHealth
dism /Online /Cleanup-image /RestoreHealth
dism /Online /Cleanup-image /StartComponentCleanup
Sfc /ScanNow                                           # You do the SFC, after the DISM ones if any

Windows Command Prompt

Dism.exe /online /Cleanup-Image /StartComponentCleanup /ResetBase

Warning: All existing update packages can't be uninstalled after this
         command is completed, but this won't block the un-installation
         of future update packages.

*******

W11Home

DISM runs on this OS:  1      # Run for amusement, on lowest level which is a "check" only.
SFC runs on this OS:   0

Disk seems to be working OK.

399,000 files on C:
There is no C:\Windows\servicing\LCU on Windows 11, so no LCU to count.

W10Pro

572,000 files
C:\Windows\servicing\LCU on Windows 10  178,000 files (can be deleted)

It's also sunny outside today, but still a bit cold.

*******

You can do a Repair Install, to tart up the WinSxS files.

While you could do a backup and restore, in an attempt to "clean"
the C: file system, that's not going to be entirely successful.
If you had any $BADCLUS entries, those would likely be preserved in
the backup, which is not a desirable property. It's normally pretty
difficult to regress to the point that the OS registers those -- the
auto-sparing of the storage devices, normally "hides the health" of
the storage so $BADCLUS (a concept from long ago), does not trigger.

I did have one of those here, and it was a bitch to get rid of.

   Paul

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#691388

This time, the bugs in the update are so bad that Microsoft has had to
issue an emergency, unscheduled update to fix the update
<https://www.computerworld.com/article/4000386/microsoft-issues-out-of-band-patches-for-windows-11-startup-failure.html>.

There are all kinds of lovely excuses in the article about how testing
can never cover every real-world possibility. But the fact remains
that the the frequency of this problem on Windows is way greater than
on any other comparable platform.

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#691406

On Mon, 6/2/2025 6:53 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> This time, the bugs in the update are so bad that Microsoft has had to
> issue an emergency, unscheduled update to fix the update
> <https://www.computerworld.com/article/4000386/microsoft-issues-out-of-band-patches-for-windows-11-startup-failure.html>.
> 
> There are all kinds of lovely excuses in the article about how testing
> can never cover every real-world possibility. But the fact remains
> that the the frequency of this problem on Windows is way greater than
> on any other comparable platform.
> 

Gee, it looks like it has happened before.

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/recovery-error-acpisys-your-pc-needs-to-be/42cf8731-6775-4ab4-ac8e-c2db82aaf2bf

A Reddit thread says:

   "ACPI.sys is the AML interpreter. The AML code is part of the BIOS, try updating the BIOS"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACPI#AML

   At the BIOS development time, AML bytecode is compiled from the ASL (ACPI Source Language) code.[8][9]

   [8] "ACPI in FreeBSD"   http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix02/tech/freenix/full_papers/watanabe/watanabe.ps
   [9] "ACPI in Linux"     https://www.kernel.org/doc/ols/2005/ols2005v1-pages-59-76.pdf

That at least hints that ACPI.sys would have to deal with
the quirks in various released computer hardware (some kind of
table passed by the BIOS).

And you also happen to know, that the BIOS emulation in virtual machine hosting,
is a "shell" of a BIOS. The implementation is incomplete. Just yesterday I got
a taste of this while installing Windows 7 in a VM, to take pictures. The
legacy BIOS install worked OK, but when I switched on UEFI in the VM,
the install disc basically crashed. And that's the interaction with
an incomplete UEFI design. When I switched to physical hardware (4930K), the
UEFI install sequence completed with no problem at all.

That's an actual frictional area on all OSes.

When you buy a Lemon Laptop with bad AML code in it, you are constantly
dealing with shit issues like that. Usually, the laptop company did not
make the laptop themselves, they got it from an ODM, and the ODM does
not provide continuing maintenance contract. The OEM is supposed to provide
maintenance to end customers.

Maybe in a Linux thread, you would see a reference to "you should install CoreBoot"
when it looks like the laptop has bad code in it.

It means that some amount of "quirks code" would be in ACPI.sys.
And in a VM with an incomplete (and *never* gets fixed) UEFI,
there is always the possibility of a bad ending. The people who
write hosting software, they only work on their skeletal UEFI
code, until "something booted, lets go for lunch".

So while we could have a discussion about complexity, this
is an area with a "history", and nobody is immune to getting
rough treatment. It's pretty hard to predict in advance, what
products have bad code in them, until someone among end users
tests the hardware.

Who knows, maybe the article would be less eventful, if it
contained details, instances, A vs B, so we can see what
percentage of users might be affected.

   Paul

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