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Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix

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From Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix
Date Wed, 14 Oct 2026 08:04:06 -0700
Message-ID <1791990246.F56CD0C5@gmail.com> (permalink)
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On Oct 13, 2026 at 2:34 PM, Alan wrote <11am852$u9v6$2@dont-email.me>:
> On 2026-10-13 14:13, Joel W. Crump wrote:
> > On 10/13/2026 5:09 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
> > > On 2026-10-13 2:21 p.m., Joel W. Crump wrote:
> > > > On 10/12/2026 8:35 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
> > > > > On 2026-10-12 7:37 p.m., Joel W. Crump wrote:
> > > > > > On 10/12/2026 7:23 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
> > > > > > > On 2026-10-12 6:58 p.m., Alan wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > APPLE is a COMPANY.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'd like to add to that. Apple is a company that is interested in selling hardware. To do that, they invest as much as they can into developing an experience that is pleasing and intuitive to current and potential customers. iOS, tvOS, watchOS and MacOS are the result of that, and they've done such a good job in selling hardware that the company is often at the peak of the most valuable companies on the planet. At no point did the customers or the administration of said company think about whether they are UNIX or not. Whether they are or aren't will do absolutely nothing to sell the hardware much like it has done nothing to sell the hardware of any other company that got certification. While the UNIX name has value to obese, neck- bearded men of old age who fondly remember using the operating system on mainframes in the 1960s, absolutely _no one_ today gives a piece of excrement about it today. If Apple uses it to produce a stable, stellar experience, so be it; if it had managed to do the same without UNIX, so be it too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All that matters, now, though, is what they're willing to do to try to expand their territory.  The Neo is one thing.  But to really take on MS, they'll need to feed a diverse field of consumers.
> > > > >
> > > > > The only thing they don't cater to is gamers. There are projects making this a lot better like NotProton, and Crossover does a great job playing games as well. However, it's definitely not a direct approach and is likely to block those people, who are willing to spend way more, from buying a Mac.
> > > >
> > > > They'd need more of a native gaming subsystem, as well as supporting Windows emulation, yeah.
> > >
> > > They already support Windows emulation through virtualization, Parallels and Crossover. What else do you need?
> >
> >
> > Mac would need to address it instead of emulating it.
> >
> 
> Why? How would that even work?
> 
> Fact: you can run Windows software on your Mac.
> 
> Fact: you can run Intel-based Windows software on your Mac.

For now. Next version of macOS removes Rosetta. There might be third party solutions but I am not sure. 
> 
> Fact: you can do so in a cohesive environment, rather than having a Window where all your Windows software runs.
> 
> Why would APPLE (not "Mac") need to do anything more?
> 
> What more COULD be done?
> 



-- 
It's impossible for someone who is at war with themselves to be at peace with you.

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Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-08 23:23 +0000
  Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-08 23:43 +0000
    Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-11 21:35 +0000
      Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-12 00:09 +0000
      Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-12 15:58 -0700
        Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-12 19:23 -0400
          Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-12 19:37 -0400
            Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-12 16:47 -0700
              Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-12 19:58 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-12 18:33 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-13 07:48 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 14:24 -0400
            Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-12 20:35 -0400
              Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 14:21 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-13 11:25 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 16:22 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-13 14:32 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 10:50 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-14 11:52 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 13:13 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-14 10:26 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 13:37 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-14 10:44 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 14:23 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-13 17:09 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-13 17:13 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-13 14:34 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 10:51 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 08:04 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-13 19:38 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 11:57 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 09:30 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-14 16:53 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-15 00:46 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-14 21:02 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 21:29 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 18:43 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 22:13 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-14 20:10 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-15 01:59 +0000
  Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-08 16:46 -0700
  Re: Another Reason Why Apple's OS IS in fact Unix (was: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix) Nick Charles <none@none.none> - 2026-10-09 00:56 +0000
    Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-09 01:06 +0000
      Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-08 19:28 -0700
        Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-09 08:25 -0400
          Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-10-09 14:40 +0200
            Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-09 09:09 -0400
              Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Nick Charles <nunya@none.none> - 2026-10-09 14:41 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-09 11:00 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-10 20:21 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-10 17:11 -0700
            Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-10 20:17 +0000
              Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-10 17:13 -0700
              Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-10 20:38 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 15:12 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-11 21:29 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 22:09 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-12 15:45 -0700
          Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-09 09:10 -0700
      Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Nick Charles <nunya@none.none> - 2026-10-09 14:41 +0000
        Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-09 11:02 -0400
          Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-09 09:11 -0700
            Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-09 14:32 -0400
              Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-09 17:13 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-09 18:36 -0400
          Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-09 19:14 +0000
            Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-09 12:48 -0700
            Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-09 17:14 -0400
              Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-10 01:36 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-09 21:40 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-10 07:34 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 15:24 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-11 21:16 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 21:23 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-11 21:32 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-12 04:10 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-09 19:06 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-10 07:38 -0400
                A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-10 12:42 -0700
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-10 20:37 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-10 18:34 -0700
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-10 21:42 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 15:37 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-11 13:40 -0700
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 16:55 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-12 12:06 -0700
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-12 15:33 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-12 12:54 -0700
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-12 16:19 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-12 13:49 -0700
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-13 00:47 +0000
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-11 07:41 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-11 13:44 -0700
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 16:57 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-12 04:23 +0000
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-12 00:29 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-12 07:07 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-12 07:11 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-12 07:51 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-12 18:54 +0000
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-12 12:07 -0700
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-11 21:25 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-11 21:12 -0400
                Re: A diversion into iOS vs Android (was Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-12 12:09 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-10 12:17 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-10 12:43 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-11 07:49 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-11 13:45 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-10 07:29 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-10 20:24 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-10 20:40 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-10 18:35 -0700
            Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix WolfFan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2026-10-09 18:36 -0400
            Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-10-10 12:13 -0400
              Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-10 20:21 +0000
              Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-10 20:36 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-11 03:57 +0000
        Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Nick Charles <none@none.none> - 2026-10-10 01:08 +0000
          Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-09 22:27 -0400
        Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-10 20:14 +0000
      Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-09 17:44 +0000
        Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-10 20:16 +0000
          Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-10 21:32 +0000
            Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-10 23:03 +0000
              Re: THE Reason Why Apple MacOS IS Unix (was: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix) Nick Charles <none@none.none> - 2026-10-11 00:18 +0000
                Re: THE Reason Why Apple MacOS IS Unix (was: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-11 00:41 +0000
                Re: THE Reason Why Apple MacOS IS Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-10 18:38 -0700
                Re: THE Reason Why Apple MacOS IS Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 15:13 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-11 21:34 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 22:12 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-10-11 21:27 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-12 12:10 -0700
              Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-10 18:37 -0700
              Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 15:06 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-10-11 21:40 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 23:12 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 19:26 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-12 00:12 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-11 20:23 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-10-12 04:58 +0000
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-12 03:02 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-12 12:59 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-12 16:21 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-12 13:50 -0700
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-10-12 16:56 -0400
                Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-10-13 00:35 +0000
          Re: Another Reason Why Apple Is Not Unix Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-10-10 18:35 -0700

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