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Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today

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  Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Larry Wolff <larrywolff@larrywolff.net> - 2024-05-31 17:20 -0400
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2024-05-31 14:21 -0700
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-06-01 12:06 +0100
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-01 14:18 +0100
        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2024-06-02 00:00 -0400
          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-02 08:34 +0100
            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-02 19:45 +0000
              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2024-06-02 16:49 -0400
                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-02 22:39 +0100
                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2024-06-02 18:17 -0400
                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 12:48 +0100
                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2024-06-03 12:16 +1200
                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 07:19 +0100
                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@air.isp.spam> - 2024-06-03 12:12 -0400
          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-06-03 14:20 +0200
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2024-05-31 19:27 -0400
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2024-06-01 18:39 +1200
        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2024-06-02 00:03 -0400
          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-06-02 07:18 +0200
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-06-01 08:05 +0200
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2024-06-02 00:06 -0400
        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2024-06-02 07:05 +0200
          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2024-06-02 11:25 -0400
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 11:43 +0000
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-01 08:50 -0400
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-01 14:24 +0100
        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-01 10:37 -0400
          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Larry Wolff <larrywolff@larrywolff.net> - 2024-06-01 11:11 -0400
            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-01 13:43 -0400
              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-01 19:26 +0100
                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-06-01 20:15 +0100
                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Peter <confused@nospam.net> - 2024-06-02 00:23 +0100
                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 22:37 -0700
                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-02 08:57 -0400
                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Peter <confused@nospam.net> - 2024-06-02 19:00 +0100
                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Alan Browne <singularity@blackhole.org> - 2024-06-02 15:20 -0400
                            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Peter <confused@nospam.net> - 2024-06-02 20:24 +0100
                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-02 21:44 -0400
                                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Peter <confused@nospam.net> - 2024-06-03 03:42 +0100
                                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 07:17 +0000
                                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 08:34 +0100
                                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 09:08 +0000
                                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 10:36 +0100
                                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 11:01 +0000
                                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 09:32 +0000
                                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 10:45 +0100
                                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 11:10 +0000
                                            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 14:52 +0000
                                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-06-03 17:43 +0200
                                                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-03 18:01 +0000
                                                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 21:03 +0000
                                                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 08:58 +0000
                                                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-04 11:45 +0000
                                                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 16:11 +0000
                                                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-04 16:53 +0000
                                                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-06-11 17:19 +0200
                                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-03 09:08 -0400
                                            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 20:13 +0000
                                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-04 05:19 +0000
                                                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-06-11 17:21 +0200
                                                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2024-06-11 16:47 +0000
                                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-06-04 09:55 +0100
                                                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-04 11:51 +0000
                                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-06-03 17:43 +0200
                                            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 20:42 +0000
                                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-03 20:53 +0000
                                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-03 08:08 -0400
                                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 07:21 +0100
                                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-03 08:13 -0400
                                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Peter <confused@nospam.net> - 2024-06-04 06:20 +0100
                                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-04 07:19 +0100
                                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-04 08:09 -0400
                                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-04 13:31 +0100
                                            Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-04 08:53 -0400
                                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-04 14:22 +0100
                                              Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2024-06-04 16:01 +0000
                                                Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-04 17:14 +0100
                                                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-04 16:48 +0000
                                                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-04 18:38 +0100
                                                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2024-06-05 04:49 +0000
                                                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2024-06-04 16:58 -0400
                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-02 22:50 +0100
                      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Bill Powell <bill@anarchists.org> - 2024-06-02 19:41 +0200
                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Alan Browne <singularity@blackhole.org> - 2024-06-02 15:18 -0400
                          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Bill Powell <bill@anarchists.org> - 2024-06-02 21:31 +0200
                        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2024-06-02 22:28 -0400
                  Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-01 20:26 -0400
                    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2024-06-02 09:04 +0100
          Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-01 16:13 +0100
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-06-03 16:25 +0100
        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2024-06-03 18:08 +0100
        Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2024-06-03 16:14 -0400
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2024-06-01 11:56 -0700
      Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Larry Wolff <larrywolff@larrywolff.net> - 2024-06-02 15:36 -0400
    Re: Turn your device completely off once a week as per advice from the NSA today Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2024-06-03 14:18 +0200

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#141699

In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 1 Jun 2024 08:05:03 +0200, Jörg Lorenz
<hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:

>Am 31.05.24 um 23:20 schrieb Larry Wolff:
>> In a document detailing several mobile device best practices, the NSA
>> recommends users turn their devices off and then back on once every week to
>> protect against zero-click exploits, which attackers often use to eavesdrop
>> on and collect data from phones.
>> 
>> https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices
>> Does this advice hold true for PC's also?
>
>A cellphone is nothing else than a desktop machine or laptop: A 

I was going to point out that Android has many and major differences
from Windows, but that would just lead to a fight, so I won't say
anything. 

>computer. If it is correct which I doubt the answer is yes.
>
>The link does not load on my Mac/Firefox. Is this a trustworthy site? 



>Even if I allow Java-script.

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#141700

Am 02.06.24 um 06:06 schrieb micky:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 1 Jun 2024 08:05:03 +0200, Jörg Lorenz
> <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>> A cellphone is nothing else than a desktop machine or laptop: A
> 
> I was going to point out that Android has many and major differences
> from Windows, but that would just lead to a fight, so I won't say
> anything.

The only *relevant* difference is that Android runs apps in sandboxes 
that require elevated rights. And who cares about Windows?

BTW: You are not knowing much about the devices you use and now you want 
to brag? Hint: You cannot solve your social issues with a cellphone.

*ROTFLSTC*

-- 
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

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#141708

In comp.mobile.android, on Sun, 2 Jun 2024 07:05:31 +0200, Jörg Lorenz
<hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:

>Am 02.06.24 um 06:06 schrieb micky:
>> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 1 Jun 2024 08:05:03 +0200, Jörg Lorenz
>> <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>>> A cellphone is nothing else than a desktop machine or laptop: A
>> 
>> I was going to point out that Android has many and major differences
>> from Windows, but that would just lead to a fight, so I won't say
>> anything.
>
>The only *relevant* difference is that Android runs apps in sandboxes 
>that require elevated rights. And who cares about Windows?

LOL   If you don't like my stories, don't read them.  
>
>BTW: You are not knowing much about the devices you use and now you want 
>to brag? Hint: You cannot solve your social issues with a cellphone.
>
>*ROTFLSTC*

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#141678

Larry Wolff <larrywolff@larrywolff.net> wrote:
> In a document detailing several mobile device best practices, the NSA 
> recommends users turn their devices off and then back on once every week to 
> protect against zero-click exploits, which attackers often use to eavesdrop 
> on and collect data from phones.
> 
> https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices
> Does this advice hold true for PC's also?

My work tried to enforce this a few months ago. It was stopped pretty
quickly due to all the complaints. 

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#141680

On 5/31/2024 5:20 PM, Larry Wolff wrote:
> In a document detailing several mobile device best practices, the NSA
> recommends users turn their devices off and then back on once every week to
> protect against zero-click exploits, which attackers often use to eavesdrop
> on and collect data from phones.
> 
> https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices
> Does this advice hold true for PC's also?
> 

   Interesting link. You're concerned about security, yet you're spreading
a link that goes to pure, indecipherable javascript. That link could be
doing anything. You could have protected people from that risk. The
actual PDF is here:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353/nsa-mobile-device-best-practices.pdf

   And PDFs should be read with a PDF viewer that either can't handle
script (like Sumatra) or with script clearly disabled. As Alan pointed 
out, there's
really no clear indication of who posted this. It could be an attack, 
via the
webpage, the PDF, or both. The first step for any kind of reasonable 
security
is to block javascript online by default and only enable it as necessary.

    To put it in perspective, it's like you've left your front door open and
called all your neighbors to discuss break-ins in the neighborhood. You're
all going to meet down at the local park. You've all left your front doors
open. And you don't see the connection.

   On a computer, nearly all vulnerabilities will involve either 
javascript or
trickery. The former is executable code attacks. The latter is like when
someone convinces you to give them your credit card number under false
pretenses.

   If the NSA really published that PDF then I suspect it was distributed
to employees who've had extensive training in security. The PDF is nonsense
gibberish to the average person. Virtually no one would be willing to follow
the recommendations because people who use cellphones use them constantly
for a vast number of conveniences. They never turn them off, care little 
about
how many apps are spying on them, and don't want to have to understand it
all. Just as you visited a pure-script webpage without a second thought.

   A cellphone is tracking your location constantly when turned on. Google
even makes money on that data. They call it geofencing. A large percentage
of apps -- whether from official stores or not -- will sell your 
personal data.
These are not malware. They're free apps that no one wants to pay for. So
the developer gets paid by selling you out. Most other apps are still 
commercial
and will likely need to collect personal data, as well as perhaps credit 
card numbers.
Those databases are hacked a great deal. Just the other day someone was
claiming to be selling 1/2 billion personal records from Ticketmaster. I 
rarely
use credit cards and normally keep my cellphone turned off unless using it,
yet someone tried to get a credit card in my name last month. They were only
stopped because I have my credit frozen.

   Long story short, this kind of advice is like what Paul was saying. 
It's mostly
meaningless incantations hoping to avoid calamity, but not trying to 
understand
the systems. And the systems are becoming increasingly difficult to 
understand.

   The fact that documentcloud routinely publishes webpages of pure script
is a typical sign of the times. They're asking you to trust them in running
software on your computer. They have no defensible reason to do such a 
thing.
Their pages should be straight, safe HTML. But most people don't know 
the difference. Cellphones are even worse in terms of external entities 
controlling
what happens on your phone. All devices are gradually becoing kiosk 
devices --
where you access services without any control over what runs on the device.

   I shut down my computer every night. Why not? Why leave it running for no
reason? Because you can't wait 20 seconds for it to boot? If you never turn
off your cellphone then you ARE being tracked like animals who've been 
tagged
by busybody biologists. If you use apps then you're compromising privacy 
and
possibly security. But even without apps, Google and Apple are among the 
sleaziest
companies operating. Both spy. Both run their own ad networks that depend
on spying. You're trusting your life to a flim flam man and then wondering
whether there's any risk. And you don't know who Google and Apple are
sharing with. The only good part is that both companies are monstrously
greedy and exploitive. They both have good reason to keep their spying to
themselves so that they can get paid by entities wanting to run targetted
ads. Cellphone app makers sell your data to data wholesalers. Google and
Apple directly exploit it themselves.

   If you really want security, disable script as much as possible. Don't
bank online. Avoid using a credit card online as much as  possible, freeze
your credit records. (Look it up. It's not hard to do.) Don't use credit
cards in public machines, like gas station pumps... If your device doesn't
hold exploitable information then you're not likely to be exploited.

   If you want to text friends regularly, call an Uber, bank and shop 
online....
then get used to the fact that security and privacy are out the window. You
can't have it both ways. The only people who are going to follow the NSA
advice are NSA employees using an NSA cellphone.... while they live 
recklessly
on their own cellphone. That's not meant to be cynical. It's just the facts.
Cellphones are all about convenience and services. It's a comprehensive
lifestyle. It's all but impossible to do it halfway. Personally I only 
use my
cellphone for phonecalls away from home. I don't give out the number.
(I don't even know the number.) I don't normally leave it turned on. But
most people don't even turn off their cellphone overnight. Most people
are using apps constantly. Form ost people their cellpphone is the 
cockpit of
their lifestyle. In that context, turning it off briefly once a week is 
meaningless.
With computers, not turning them off when you won't be using them is simply
stupidity and laziness. And turning them off can sometimes make a difference
in terms of software stuck in memory, updates that require a reboot, 
etc. For
example, occasionally a program might get its window closed without 
being shut
down. If you don't track such things and you never shut down, when will the
program be closed? Maybe next Christmas? Maybe when you buy a new computer?
A running computer OS is a dynamic, complex process. It's not like 
leaving an
electric clock turned on.

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#141682

Newyana2 wrote:

> That link could be doing anything. 

Well, any link can do anything ...

> You could have protected people from that risk. The actual PDF is
> here:
> 
> https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353/nsa-mobile-device-best-practices.pdf

That's just a different link to the same site, I posted a link to the 
original file (which could also do anything) but presumably you accept a 
DoD website is less likely to do anything "bad" than a .org website?

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#141684

On 6/1/2024 9:24 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

>> That link could be doing anything. 
> 
> Well, any link can do anything ...
> 
    No, any link cannot do anything. If you disable script there's very
little chance of any kind of risk. If sites don't require script then one
doesn't need to enable it. A webpage that's really only script (like
the link posted) requires allowing script to run in order to see the
webpage.

>> You could have protected people from that risk. The actual PDF is
>> here:
>>
>> https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353/nsa-mobile-device-best-practices.pdf 
>>
> 
> That's just a different link to the same site

   No it isn't. The original link is to the webpage that runs script.
This link is directly to the PDF download. It might look the same
to you if you allow PDFs to open in the browser. That's not a good
idea, as PDFs can embed script.

> I posted a link to the 
> original file (which could also do anything) but presumably you accept a 
> DoD website is less likely to do anything "bad" than a .org website?

   You seem to be confused by allowing PDFs to load as webpages.
There was the original webpage. HTML loading script. There's my direct
link to a PDF. There's your link to a PDF. A webpage and a PDF are not
the same. But they might appear to be the same if you allow PDFs to
load in your browser.

    If you download a PDF it's reasonably safe to read in something
like Sumatra that doesn't allow script. The webpage, by contrast, is
loading a complex script. I don't allow PDFs in my browser, but that
webpage is somehow loading it, or loading an HTML facsimile. The link
to download the PDF, however, is a real PDF.

   I'd suggest that if you care about security online then you might
want to go into your browser settings and change the default behavior
for PDF files -- set them to be downloaded.

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#141685

On 6/1/2024 10:37 AM, Newyana2 wrote:

>    I'd suggest that if you care about security online then you might
> want to go into your browser settings and change the default behavior
> for PDF files -- set them to be downloaded.

It's in all the major papers so there's no need, really, for the PDF.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/06/01/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/

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#141687

On 6/1/2024 11:11 AM, Larry Wolff wrote:

> It's in all the major papers so there's no need, really, for the PDF.
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/06/01/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/
> 

    And it's useless info. The NSA have come out with recommendations
that no one would implement, very few can understand, and the mainstream
media have provided a useless takeaway: Everyone can now feel like
they've dealt with security if they just turn their cellphone off once a 
week.

   What has spearphishing got to do with turning off a cellphone? No one
seems to explain that. Spearphishing refers to tricking people, usually
with convincing info, into taking action that puts them at risk. For
example, someone could send me an email that appears to come from
my bank, getting me to log into a malware site and possibly give up
sensitive info. Rebooting a cellphone would have no effect there.

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#141688

Newyana2 wrote:

> Larry Wolff wrote:
> 
>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/06/01/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/
> 
> And it's useless info. 
Agreed;  it's the equivalent of people thinking that because they check 
their tyre pressures once a week, they can drive anyhow they like ...

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#141691

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes:

> Newyana2 wrote:
>
>> Larry Wolff wrote:
>> 
>>>
>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/06/01/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/
>> And it's useless info.  > Agreed; it's the equivalent of people
>> thinking that because they check their > tyre pressures once a week,
>> they can drive anyhow they like ...

Why would anyone think that? The news article says "However, the NSA
document does warn that the turn it off and on again advice will only
sometimes prevent these attacks from being successful."

It's good advice, but it won't safe you from everything, it's a
mitigation, that's what it says in the article.

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#141693

On Sat, 01 Jun 2024 20:15:37 +0100, Richmond wrote:
>>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/06/01/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/
>>> And it's useless info.  
> Agreed; it's the equivalent of people
>>> thinking that because they check their 
> tyre pressures once a week,
>>> they can drive anyhow they like ...
> 
> Why would anyone think that? The news article says "However, the NSA
> document does warn that the turn it off and on again advice will only
> sometimes prevent these attacks from being successful."
> 
> It's good advice, but it won't safe you from everything, it's a
> mitigation, that's what it says in the article.

The news article says "The NSA also advises Phone users to disable 
Bluetooth when not using it" but isn't Google and Apple keeping the 
bluetooth radio permanently on because they want to sell trackers?

In addition to disallowing you to keep your bluetooth radio off, isn't 
Apple and Google not really turning off the phone even when you tell it to 
turn off?

With Android 15, for example, the bluetooth radio can't be turned off for 
more than one day, and with the latest Pixel phones, they never turn off.

I've heard Apple's doing the same two things, aren't they?

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#141702

On 6/1/24 4:23 PM, Peter wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Jun 2024 20:15:37 +0100, Richmond wrote:
>>>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/06/01/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/
>>>> And it's useless info.  
>> Agreed; it's the equivalent of people
>>>> thinking that because they check their 
>> tyre pressures once a week,
>>>> they can drive anyhow they like ...
>> 
>> Why would anyone think that? The news article says "However, the NSA
>> document does warn that the turn it off and on again advice will only
>> sometimes prevent these attacks from being successful."
>> 
>> It's good advice, but it won't safe you from everything, it's a
>> mitigation, that's what it says in the article.
> 
> The news article says "The NSA also advises Phone users to disable
> Bluetooth when not using it" but isn't Google and Apple keeping the
> bluetooth radio permanently on because they want to sell trackers?

Why would a radio be bluetooth?  Does anyone actually use separate 
radios now?  And if they did, why would they want it to play through 
their phone?  Or is it the radio on the phone playing through bluetooth 
speakers?

> In addition to disallowing you to keep your bluetooth radio off, isn't
> Apple and Google not really turning off the phone even when you tell it to
> turn off?
> 
> With Android 15, for example, the bluetooth radio can't be turned off for
> more than one day, and with the latest Pixel phones, they never turn off.

Seriously?  Why would anyone want to be forced to have a radio even if 
they weren't actually listening to it?  I once tried to listen to the 
radio on my Pixel 2, found it unpleasant (really inadequate speaker(s)) 
and had to spend quite a bit of time figuring out how to turn it off. 
Why would anybody tolerate using the battery for an app they weren't 
using and didn't wane?

> I've heard Apple's doing the same two things, aren't they?
> 


-- 
Cheers, Bev
    "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala,
     it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet."           -- Anon.

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#141706

On 6/2/2024 1:37 AM, The Real Bev wrote:

>> The news article says "The NSA also advises Phone users to disable
>> Bluetooth when not using it" but isn't Google and Apple keeping the
>> bluetooth radio permanently on because they want to sell trackers?
> 
> Why would a radio be bluetooth?  Does anyone actually use separate 
> radios now?  And if they did, why would they want it to play through 
> their phone?  Or is it the radio on the phone playing through bluetooth 
> speakers?
> 
    I think Peter just means bluetooth functionality:

https://www.androidpolice.com/android-15-auto-enable-bluetooth/

   There was talk at one point of stores even using bluetooth beacons
to track shoppers, allowing them to assess what products people
look at on shelves and whether or not they buy a product that they
look at.

https://themarkup.org/privacy/2023/02/16/forget-milk-and-eggs-supermarkets-are-having-a-fire-sale-on-data-about-you

   So, Google and Apple are tracking location. Google is also buying
credit card data and cooperating with stores to know when you're
actually within a store's building. Apps are spying and selling location
data. Bluetooth, then, is just adding finer data to the mix. Now they
know you're in the produce aisle or looking at pasta. Perhaps they
can even send you a youtube video in real time with a recipe for
lasagna. This stuff strains the imagination's capacity. Even the Jason
Bourne movies have become outdated. (But I sure would love to
see a Bourne 2024 sequel. "Boss, sensors in a convenience store just
picked up Bourne's pheromones, and an undocumented cellphone in
the same store is calling Sacramento." "OK, let's get teams to both
locations in 5 minutes.")

   I don't know why the NSA cares about bluetooth. Presumably
bluetooth transmissions can be hacked somehow, perhaps getting the
transmission or even hacking into the cellphone through a
man-in-the-middle style hack. Or maybe the microphone can be
accessed to listen in to someone talking nearby. But I don't know
whether such things are actually possible.

   It's surprising to me how much people who live by cellphone still
don't understand that all this is going on. I go into Whole Foods
and see nearly every customer flash their Amazon Prime ID from
their cellphone. They think they're clever because they just got 10%
off on scallops that WF marked up 20% in order to provide a Prime
discount. It's all about convenience. People are always surprised or
even incredulous when they hear about they spying. They're focused
only on convenience. And also an irrational fear of cash. Younger
people especially seem to actually fear cash. I've come to feel like
a swaggering Marlon Brando character when I pull out my pile of
bills.... I suppose these are the people who grew up wearing a helmet
for supervised tricycle riding. They feel in danger when some external
authority is not running their life. Cash is just too "unofficial" to allow
into one's life. Anything could happen!

   A good example of the gap in understanding is the man who was
arrested for murdering 4 college students
in Idaho. The police got his phone data, showing that he drove by the
house a number of times and sometimes parked outside. He also turned
off his cellphone for an hour at the time of the murders. So the man
understood enough to know that his location could be tracked if his
cellphone were turned on, but he didn't actually grok how extensive
the surveillance is. (Last I heard he was claiming that he has insomnia
and often went out for long drives at night.) *He never actually
understood that by carrying a cellphone turned on he was being
constantly monitored.* Few people do understand that. They think
it's tinfoil hat talk.

   So it's not hard to imagine that all those vulnerabilities might be
accessed by criminal elements or foreign spies. With all the people
shopping and banking on cellphones, looking for ways to hack in
becomes the 21st century version of a treasure map... I'm beginning
to think that's how the world will end. Not meteors or nuclear war.
Instead, some group of anarchist psychos will hack the world's computer
networks. From there they'll be able to change everyone's
bank balance every 15 minutes, void your identity, create endless
fake identities, erase trucking and shipping computers... We'd all
be murdered, starve to death, or be run over by driverless taxis within
days... Millennials and GenZers will simply die of exposure to reality
and lack of therapy appointments, within 2 weeks of their cellphones
malfunctioning. Our only hope will be Jason Bourne. :)

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#141711

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>    So, Google and Apple are tracking location. Google is also buying
> credit card data and cooperating with stores to know when you're
> actually within a store's building. Apps are spying and selling location
> data. Bluetooth, then, is just adding finer data to the mix. Now they
> know you're in the produce aisle or looking at pasta.

You understand the problem but most people don't even know that bluetooth
is radio-frequency emissions - which Google & Apple both have a vested
interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.

We already had Google enforcing "precise location" tracking with last
summer's secret and undeniable update of Google Maps, which turns on a
whole bunch of tracking settings that most people don't even know exist.

And now, with Android 15, Google is apparently planning to keep up the
tracking by not allowing you to turn off your bluetooth radio for long.

Even worse perhaps, is you can no longer completely power down a phone.

Both Google's and Apple's latest phones don't allow you to turn them off
for real. The iPhones and the latest Pixels are still running Google's and
Apple's tracking activities even when you think you've turned them off. 

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#141713

On 2024-06-02 14:00, Peter wrote:

> which Google & Apple both have a vested
> interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.

Can you cite a reliable source for this?


-- 
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

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#141714

Alan Browne <singularity@blackhole.org> wrote:
>> which Google & Apple both have a vested
>> interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.
> 
> Can you cite a reliable source for this?

Not only is it well known information, but there were already reliable
sources previously cited in this very thread by Newyana2, which you
shouldn't be asking me to repeat just because you didn't bother to look.

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#141727

On 6/2/2024 3:24 PM, Peter wrote:
> Alan Browne <singularity@blackhole.org> wrote:
>>> which Google & Apple both have a vested
>>> interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.
>>
>> Can you cite a reliable source for this?
> 
> Not only is it well known information, but there were already reliable
> sources previously cited in this very thread by Newyana2, which you
> shouldn't be asking me to repeat just because you didn't bother to look.
> 

  I think that's a reasonable question. I can turn off my
Android cellphone, and I do. If it's really true that phones
are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
shocking and nonsensical. Not that I don't believe it, but
I'd like to know the facts one way or the other. If that's really
the case then I suppose the only way to stop tracking
would be too keep the phone in something like a metal
cigarette case.

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#141729

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>>>> which Google & Apple both have a vested
>>>> interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.
>>>
>>> Can you cite a reliable source for this?
>> 
>> Not only is it well known information, but there were already reliable
>> sources previously cited in this very thread by Newyana2, which you
>> shouldn't be asking me to repeat just because you didn't bother to look.
>> 
> 
>   I think that's a reasonable question. I can turn off my
> Android cellphone, and I do. If it's really true that phones
> are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
> shocking and nonsensical. Not that I don't believe it, but
> I'd like to know the facts one way or the other. If that's really
> the case then I suppose the only way to stop tracking
> would be too keep the phone in something like a metal
> cigarette case.

There are two issues that are moving in the wrong direction for privacy
which we have to take separately, but which both Apple & Google benefit
from by not allowing you to be safe from their tracking activities.

1. The phones still track even when you think you've turned them off.
2. The bluetooth radios turn back on despite you turning them off.

You already gave a cite and others did too for the bluetooth issue.
The cite for the phones never turning off is in another recent thread.

Google's "Find My Debvice Network" by Stan Brown (4 days ago)
https://comp.mobile.android.narkive.com/5eS53TT8/google-s-find-my-debvice-network

One relevant post with a cite showing the phones never turn off being this.

  "thanks to specialized Pixel hardware, Pixel 8 and 8 Pro owners 
   will also be able to find their devices if they're powered off 
   or the battery is dead"
  <https://blog.google/products/android/android-find-my-device/>

In that same thread is another cite about bluetooth turning back on.

 "Android 15 will add a new feature that can automatically turn 
  on Bluetooth the day after you've disabled it.
  Your phone's Bluetooth radio is used for several key Android features, 
  such as Quick Share and Find My Device.
  Disabling Bluetooth will slightly improve battery, but the trade-off 
  is that your device won't be able to contribute to Google's Find My
  Device network."
 <https://www.androidauthority.com/android-15-bluetooth-auto-on-3431445/>

There is a good argument that they're doing this because they make a lot of
money tracking you, even if you try to turn off bluetooth & even then, if
you try to turn off the phone - they still want to be able to track you.

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#141732

Peter <confused@nospam.net> wrote:
> Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>>>>> which Google & Apple both have a vested
>>>>> interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.
>>>> 
>>>> Can you cite a reliable source for this?
>>> 
>>> Not only is it well known information, but there were already reliable
>>> sources previously cited in this very thread by Newyana2, which you
>>> shouldn't be asking me to repeat just because you didn't bother to look.
>>> 
>> 
>> I think that's a reasonable question. I can turn off my
>> Android cellphone, and I do. If it's really true that phones
>> are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
>> shocking and nonsensical. Not that I don't believe it, but
>> I'd like to know the facts one way or the other. If that's really
>> the case then I suppose the only way to stop tracking
>> would be too keep the phone in something like a metal
>> cigarette case.
> 
> There are two issues that are moving in the wrong direction for privacy
> which we have to take separately, but which both Apple & Google benefit
> from by not allowing you to be safe from their tracking activities.
> 
> 1. The phones still track even when you think you've turned them off.

That's a user convenience to be able to find lost or stolen devices. Hugely
beneficial. 

> 2. The bluetooth radios turn back on despite you turning them off.

Not true on ios. You can turn it off permanently. 

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