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Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it?

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  Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-23 16:45 +0000
    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? AL <noemail@none.invalid.com> - 2016-09-23 12:35 -0700
      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-23 23:47 +0200
        Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 00:04 +0000
          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 00:10 +0000
          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-24 03:49 +0200
      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 00:04 +0000
        Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-23 18:03 -0700
          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-23 18:09 -0700
          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 01:23 +0000
            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-23 18:58 -0700
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-23 22:02 -0400
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 02:41 +0000
          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 01:42 +0000
            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-24 04:00 +0200
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 02:41 +0000
                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-24 04:57 +0200
                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 15:24 +0000
                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-25 11:38 -0700
                      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2016-09-25 20:13 +0100
                        Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-25 22:44 +0200
                        Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-25 20:39 -0700
                          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-26 04:00 +0000
                            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-25 21:34 -0700
                              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-26 16:24 +0200
                                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-26 08:43 -0700
                                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2016-09-26 18:17 +0000
                                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-28 00:22 +0200
                                      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Dave Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> - 2016-09-28 14:17 +0100
                                        Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-10-01 16:28 +0200
                                          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Dave Higton <dave@davehigton.me.uk> - 2016-10-01 20:56 +0100
                                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-26 11:51 -0400
                                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? nmassello@yahoo.com (Neill Massello) - 2016-09-26 10:15 -0600
                                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-26 09:48 -0700
                              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> - 2016-09-26 12:55 -0400
                                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-26 11:12 -0700
                                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2016-09-26 18:23 +0000
                            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-26 16:27 +0200
                          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-29 07:38 -0700
                            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2016-09-29 15:16 +0000
                              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-29 09:07 -0700
                      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-26 00:22 +0000
            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> - 2016-09-24 02:12 -0400
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-24 16:15 +0200
                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 16:31 +0000
        Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-24 03:58 +0200
          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-25 10:02 -0700
            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-25 10:31 -0700
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-26 00:22 +0000
                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-26 04:14 +0200
                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-26 02:23 +0000
                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-26 16:01 +0200
                      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-26 08:51 -0700
                        Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-28 00:30 +0200
                      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Piet <www.godfatherof.nl/@opt-in.invalid> - 2016-09-26 18:19 +0200
                        Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> - 2016-09-27 04:08 -0400
                          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Piet <www.godfatherof.nl/@opt-in.invalid> - 2016-09-27 18:35 +0200
                          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2016-09-27 17:22 +0000
                            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2016-09-27 20:39 +0200
                            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> - 2016-09-28 02:40 -0400
                              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-10-01 16:34 +0200
                            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Piet <www.godfatherof.nl/@opt-in.invalid> - 2016-09-29 11:40 +0200
                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-25 19:56 -0700
                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-26 16:05 +0200
            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-25 20:38 +0200
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-26 00:22 +0000
            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-26 00:22 +0000
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-26 04:17 +0200
                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-26 02:35 +0000
                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-26 16:07 +0200
            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-26 00:23 +0000
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-26 04:18 +0200
                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-26 02:38 +0000
                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-26 16:12 +0200
                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2016-09-26 10:23 +0100
                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-26 16:13 +0200
                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2016-09-26 15:50 +0100
                      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-28 00:35 +0200
        Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? AL <noemail@none.invalid.com> - 2016-09-23 20:20 -0700
          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-23 22:42 -0700
            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? AL <noemail@none.invalid.com> - 2016-09-23 23:49 -0700
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-24 16:24 +0200
                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Chris in Makati <mail@nospam.com> - 2016-09-25 10:52 +0100
                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-25 12:13 +0200
                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Chris in Makati <mail@nospam.com> - 2016-09-25 15:46 +0100
                      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? AL <noemail@none.invalid.com> - 2016-09-25 10:26 -0700
                      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-25 20:47 +0200
                      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> - 2016-09-25 20:22 -0400
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 16:31 +0000
                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? AL <noemail@none.invalid.com> - 2016-09-24 10:58 -0700
                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 21:31 +0000
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> - 2016-09-24 18:28 -0400
                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 16:53 -0700
                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> - 2016-09-25 01:15 -0400
            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-24 16:19 +0200
            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 16:31 +0000
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-25 11:05 -0700
                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-25 11:23 -0700
                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-26 00:23 +0000
                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-25 20:46 -0700
                      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-28 16:30 +0000
                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-26 00:23 +0000
                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-25 21:27 -0700
                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-28 16:30 +0000
                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-28 16:30 +0000
                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-28 16:30 +0000
                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-28 16:30 +0000
                      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-28 10:16 -0700
                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-28 16:30 +0000
                      Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-28 10:44 -0700
                        Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-28 17:52 +0000
                          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-28 11:25 -0700
                            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-28 20:41 +0000
                  Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2016-09-26 14:21 -0500
                    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-28 16:30 +0000
            Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> - 2016-09-24 18:26 -0400
              Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-25 02:45 +0200
                Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> - 2016-09-25 01:20 -0400
          Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Horace Algiers <horace@horacealgiers.com> - 2016-09-24 16:31 +0000
        Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2016-09-25 17:34 +0200
    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-09-24 11:24 +0200
    Re: Do you turn off "location access" in all the apps that don't need it? "s|b" <me@privacy.invalid> - 2016-09-24 19:31 +0200

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#34888

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 20:46:04 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Accuracy, quality, changes.  Pick any two.
> If you still want to make changes, such as closed roads, it will be
> more accurate, but the quality of the maps will suffer as everyone
> makes changes based on their personal preferences.  Careful what you
> wish for.

Well, I had Google declare the track "restricted usage" which is what it
is. They wouldn't eliminate it, simply because it *does* exist. And, they
wouldn't list it as 'blocked', even though it has a set of locked gates.

So, restricted useage is as good as I'm gonna get.

They *said* they won't map anyone to use that road *unless* the location is
*on* that road. 

It kind of makes sense, so I didn't fight them, as they seemed to be
wanting to do the right thing, within "their" rules of how they do things.

As I recall, it was all fixed and done in a couple of weeks.

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#34795

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 11:05:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Google made a rather big mistake in the Santa Cruz area.  The 122deg
> longitude line goes through the middle of town.  Everything to the
> west of 122deg was correctly based on WGS84.  Everything to the east
> was based on NAD27.  I never bothered to see how far east it extended.
> You could actually see the jog in satellite photos.  Measuring the
> offset produced approximately a 200ft error, which is approximately
> what I would expect from the this mistake.  

That's interesting because I always wondered *where* Google Maps gets it's
baseline map information from.

I know they have the satellite view, but I don't think they use the
satellite view as a primary view - but only as an "overlay".

I actually thought they get their maps from the local county GIS office,
who themselves gets their map information from the county assessor's
office.
http://gis.co.santa-cruz.ca.us/PublicGISWeb/

The GIS office maintains all sorts of maps (e.g., hydrology, foliage, etc)
but they also cover the roads and the road status (e.g., dirt, paved,
etc.).
http://www.co.santa-cruz.ca.us/Departments/GeographicInformationSystems%28GIS%29.aspx

AFAIK, GIS gets the road status from the assessor (e.g., public, private)
and they put it as a property on the GIS map. 

Everyone else (e.g., the police, fire department, etc.) gets their maps
from the GIS office (AFAIK).

Given that system, I would *assume* that Google Maps gets their baseline
maps from GIS.

I don't want to assign homework to you, but, if/when you have time (ok if
that's never), you could check to see if your local GIS map has the same
errors that you see in Google Maps.

That would be further evidence that the process is:
a. Assessor's map 
b. GIS map
c. Sheriff/police/fire/etc. map & Google/Delorme/Garmin/etc map

> With such a clear cut and drastic error, one would expect Google to
> fix the problem fairly quickly.  Nope.  It took about 2 years to met
> to get their attention.  I was only successful because at the time, a
> friend worked in the Google Maps group and crammed it into the queue
> for the price of a restaurant dinner for his family.  I think it was
> about 2000 or maybe earlier and things undoubtedly have changed since
> then.

Wow. I have friends in that Mountainview HQ but even they told me to get my
map corrections through the official channels! You have more clout than I
do down the hill in Mountainview!

This is the official process:
https://support.google.com/maps/answer/3094088

1 Open Google Maps and make sure you're signed in.
2 To report a problem about an address, search for that address or click on
the map to drop a pin.
3 In the bottom right, click Send feedback.
4 Choose Report a data problem.
5 Follow the instructions.
6 Click Submit.

>>Their rationale is that a locked gate isn't a blockage - it's a
>>"restriction". Their point is that someone who has the gate code or key can
>>get past the blockage, so, it's merely a restriction.
> 
> Around here, the gated "restricted entry" properties are usually pot
> farms.

Heh heh ... out here, there are both legal and illegal pot farms, but I try
to stay away from them, if I can. They shoot to kill.
 
>>In the end, my point is that simply *looking* at an *accurate* map will
>>sometimes tell you better how to get somewhere than Google directions.
> 
> I email everyone who plans to visit a map with the route inscribed:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/1540%20Jackson%20Ave.jpg>
> As one gets further up the hill, many of the roads shown on the map
> were either washed out, overgrown, undermined, planned but not built,
> or gated.  A few end in a precipitous drop.  It would be nice if the
> map makers added such designations.  Maybe add pot holes, death traps,
> angry land owners, no turn-around, etc.  I used to have a sign board
> at the transition between the county maintained road, and the owner
> maintained section, showing some of these hazards.  It was a big help,
> but the tourists and visitors kept stealing the map.  When someone
> stole the map and the sign board, I gave up.

I also have put up volunteer signs, and they were defaced, within months,
and some stolen, so I know what you mean when you get discouraged.

I had kids go to UCSC, so I should have stopped by when I visited them. Too
late now, but it was fun sending them off to school. :)

>>In
>>this case that I had the Google database corrected, if you route to a house
>>on one of the "restricted use" roads, Google will take you to that house
>>(because they don't "block" the road).
>>
>>However, if you route from a point "just outside" the restricted-use roads,
>>Google will take you roundabout over 30 additional miles since it won't
>>route using the "restricted use" road unless the destination is "on" the
>>restricted use roads.
> 
> I use Open Street Maps to generate routes and directions.
> <http://map.project-osrm.org>
> <http://www.yournavigation.org>
> <http://open.mapquest.com>  (going away)
> I've made a few local corrections to the maps.  Adding things is
> fairly easy.  Removing them, such as deleting roads that don't exist,
> is almost impossible.

I love that the OSM maps in my area have a certain "mistake" which is what
I use to instantly tell whether a free mapping program is using OSM maps or
not, since all the ones using OSM maps have the same mistake.

So that's one that I won't try to fix, as it gives me useful data.
:)

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#34808

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 00:23:03 +0000 (UTC), Horace Algiers
<horace@horacealgiers.com> wrote:

>That's interesting because I always wondered *where* Google Maps gets it's
>baseline map information from.

<https://maps.google.com/help/maps/mapcontent/basemap/>
I guess the theory is that if you mix in all the various and diverse
AUTHORITATIVE map sources, the errors will all cancel.

My guess(tm) is that most road maps were originally aerial photos,
where software traced out the roads.
<https://developmentseed.org/blog/2015/08/17/uav-for-road-monitoring/>

Fire up Google Earth and it tells you date, but not the sources or the
images.  I guess there are just too many now to list them on the maps.
However, if you go back to older images with:
  View -> Historical Imagery
you'll see the source of the images at the lower center of the screen.
Scrolling through my home area, I find USGS, NASA, Digital Globe, USDA
Farm Service Agency, Google, etc.

Incidentally, the County of Santa Cruz paid a fairly large amount of
money to do a LADAR survey of the county from the air.  For
benchmarks, they painted a white "X" on top of all the manhole covers.
Can't get much better than that.

Many years ago, I worked with CDF (Cal Fire) on jurisdictional
boundary maps.  The problem was that the SCZ County and San Mateo
County maps did not meet neatly at the boundary.  The gap left a fair
number of house in the gap with fire service from either both
jurisdictions, or neither jurisdiction.  Roads would also appear to be
skewed or broken.  Rumor had it that one house burned down while fire
fighters from SCZ and San Mateo argued over who should put out the
fire.  I don't know if that was for real.  I was not involved in the
inevitable compromise.  All I know is that it worked and was
non-violent.

>Everyone else (e.g., the police, fire department, etc.) gets their maps
>from the GIS office (AFAIK).

Nope.  The PSAPs (public safety answering points) use the telephone
company property maps for 911 location.  Since the call originally was
expected to come in via a wired POTS phone line, these property
numbers could be used for location.  There's a dedicated computah of
obtaining location data on 911 calls from this computer.  The location
is in a proprietary format which eventually produces a location on the
dispatchers console.  This is why giving the dispatcher your location
in lat-long has been somewhat of a problem.  However, I'm about 10
years behind on this technology and things may have changed.

>Given that system, I would *assume* that Google Maps gets their baseline
>maps from GIS.

GIS is not a company or organization.  It stands for Geographic
Information System.  While there are now organizations for dealing
with discrepancies, such as what happens with we have an earthquake, a
botched surveying job, or continental drift, there is no central
depository for all the nations map data.

>I don't want to assign homework to you, but, if/when you have time (ok if
>that's never), you could check to see if your local GIS map has the same
>errors that you see in Google Maps.

Sigh.  I don't think you realize how much work that could be.  I've
done this rather crudely using Google Earth, which allows for
overlays.  I create an overlay map and record the lat-long of the map
corners.  When I insert it into Google Earth as a semi-transparent
overlay, I can see how the features line up.  I do this often with
radio and cellular coverage patterns.  It's not difficult to see that
the roads don't always line up very well.
<https://www.google.com/earth/outreach/tutorials/earthoverlays.html>

>Wow. I have friends in that Mountainview HQ but even they told me to get my
>map corrections through the official channels! You have more clout than I
>do down the hill in Mountainview!

That was maybe 10 to 15 years ago.  I don't think I could do it today.
The problem today is very different.  With all the distributed
companies and work at home systems, just finding the person in charge
of something is difficult.  Getting a consensus is impossible because
I'm not on their secure work network.  Dinner bribes are also
difficult if the manager is somewhere in India or China.


-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#34889

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 21:27:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> My guess(tm) is that most road maps were originally aerial photos,
> where software traced out the roads.
> <https://developmentseed.org/blog/2015/08/17/uav-for-road-monitoring/>

That's how "I" would do it, but the GIS people expressly told me it was
they who give the maps out. Of course, there is only one guy in the county
GIS office, and he doesn't even answer his phone most of the time, so he
may have been exaggerating his importance.

However, the police/sheriff *do* get their maps from the county GIS office,
as they are the ones who clued me in to the error in the first place.

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#34890

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 21:27:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> That was maybe 10 to 15 years ago.  I don't think I could do it today.
> The problem today is very different.  With all the distributed
> companies and work at home systems, just finding the person in charge
> of something is difficult.  Getting a consensus is impossible because
> I'm not on their secure work network.  Dinner bribes are also
> difficult if the manager is somewhere in India or China.

I have quite a few friends at both HQs in Mountainview and Cupertino, but
over time, their ability to do special things for me has waned.

Either that, or I lost my power to do things for them in the San Jose HQ
once I retired, which is probably half the story. 

:)

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#34891

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 21:27:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> GIS is not a company or organization.  It stands for Geographic
> Information System.  While there are now organizations for dealing
> with discrepancies, such as what happens with we have an earthquake, a
> botched surveying job, or continental drift, there is no central
> depository for all the nations map data.

Speaking of a "botched surveying job", not too far from me is a good friend
on land which has adjacent land which had been unoccupied because the first
few surveys didn't show the driveway to hit the road without crossing over
a few feet of open space.

Then the owner of the landlocked property tried to strong arm the two
neighbors to the side, for a prescriptive easement, but that failed (dunno
why but I think because they bought the property cheap *knowing* it was
landlocked and the judge said the people were willing to *sell* the rights
to the guy but he didn't want to pay the price).

Finally, the owner figured out the *correct* plan, which was to come up
with his own "special" survey which gave six feet to *each* of the
neighbors and took that six feet away from the open space (moving the six
feet to the back of the properties instead of to the front) and *all* the
three neighbors were happy. 

Apparently, the *last* survey registered wins, and since everyone won six
feet, they were all happy not to have to commission a competing survey.

One can only presume the open space doesn't know about this surveyor's
shenanigan, as the driveway was eventually built.

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#34892

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 21:27:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Many years ago, I worked with CDF (Cal Fire) on jurisdictional
> boundary maps.  The problem was that the SCZ County and San Mateo
> County maps did not meet neatly at the boundary.  The gap left a fair
> number of house in the gap with fire service from either both
> jurisdictions, or neither jurisdiction.  Roads would also appear to be
> skewed or broken.  Rumor had it that one house burned down while fire
> fighters from SCZ and San Mateo argued over who should put out the
> fire.  I don't know if that was for real.  I was not involved in the
> inevitable compromise.  All I know is that it worked and was
> non-violent.

I'm in one of those 'boundary' areas myself, although I'm covered by more
than one fire jurisdiction. 

I think, from memory, the *land* is covered by calfire while the *home* is
covered by the local town fire department.

Weird.

BTW, out here, *every* house must have its own fire hydrant on the
property. 

Do you have the same rules?

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#34895

On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 16:30:45 -0000 (UTC), Horace Algier
<horatio@horatio.net> wrote:

>I'm in one of those 'boundary' areas myself, although I'm covered by more
>than one fire jurisdiction. 

There was some kind of negotiated agreement thrown together as part of
the service area adjustments, which involved overlapping coverage. The
problem was that the state did not want to pay for two fire
departments arriving to fight a single fire.  I think it was that
either department can put out the fire, but not both.  I suppose that
would create a situation where they both race to the scene of the
fire, but I haven't seen any of that.  You might want to check on what
overlapping coverage in your area really means.

>I think, from memory, the *land* is covered by calfire while the *home* is
>covered by the local town fire department.

I don't think so.  In the People's Republic of Santa Cruz County, Cal
Fire acts as the county fire department for the unincorporated areas
only during the winter.  The division is financial not service
oriented.  The problem is that areas that contribute the most tax
revenue to the fire district, also seem to get second class service
because of their remoteness.  That's part of what inspired the Bonny
Doon volunteer fire department to go independent.  It would have been
successful, expect that it was foiled by a politicized judge and local
politics:
<http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/article/ZZ/20101005/NEWS/101007909>

>Weird.

Dive in a little deeper into fire department politics and it will get
far more weird.

>BTW, out here, *every* house must have its own fire hydrant on the
>property. 
>Do you have the same rules?

My fire insurance has some requirement that I be near a hydrant or
have some amount of water storage.  I have what one might call a
hydrant within 30ft, so I'm "safe".  We used to share a 6,000(?)
gallon redwood water tank on the hill above my house, but it burned
down around 1980 and was not replaced.


-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#34893

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 21:27:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Incidentally, the County of Santa Cruz paid a fairly large amount of
> money to do a LADAR survey of the county from the air.  For
> benchmarks, they painted a white "X" on top of all the manhole covers.
> Can't get much better than that.

Heh heh ... Jeff ... I hike these hills a lot, and I've seen big blue
plastic sheets with an X in white in the middle nailed to the ground.

I have photos of them, but I'd have to dig them out and I'm sure you've
seen the same things all over. 

SO that's what they must have been doing, which is what I would have
thought, since there's no other reason for a blue and white X to be on the
ground in the middle of nowhere. 

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#34896

On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 16:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Horace Algier
<horatio@horatio.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 21:27:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, the County of Santa Cruz paid a fairly large amount of
>> money to do a LIDAR survey of the county from the air.  For
>> benchmarks, they painted a white "X" on top of all the manhole covers.
>> Can't get much better than that.
>
>Heh heh ... Jeff ... I hike these hills a lot, and I've seen big blue
>plastic sheets with an X in white in the middle nailed to the ground.
>I have photos of them, but I'd have to dig them out and I'm sure you've
>seen the same things all over. 

<https://www.google.com/search?q=Survey+Aerial+Targets&tbm=isch>
There's often a survey marker or benchmark under the markers.

When they were doing the county survey, I accidentally found a few of
ground markers in remote locations, but mostly the "X" was painted on
roadways, parking lots, etc.  Temporary markers tend to mysteriously
move or disappear.

>SO that's what they must have been doing, which is what I would have
>thought, since there's no other reason for a blue and white X to be on the
>ground in the middle of nowhere. 

Yep.  Aerial survey and mapping.  
-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#34897

On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 10:44:40 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> <https://www.google.com/search?q=Survey+Aerial+Targets&tbm=isch>
> There's often a survey marker or benchmark under the markers.

Yup. They're blue and white instead of black and white, which is mostly
shown, and they're on bald outcrops in various places in these hills.

I wonder if someone comes by to clean them up?

Since where "I" hike, nobody else does, I never see "trash" per se, but I
do see popped balloons (especially the silvery kind) and these markers.

But I never see soda pop or beer bottles when I'm off the trail (which is
all the time I hike). 
 
>>SO that's what they must have been doing, which is what I would have
>>thought, since there's no other reason for a blue and white X to be on the
>>ground in the middle of nowhere. 
> 
> Yep.  Aerial survey and mapping.

Well then, our area of the hills was recently surveyed. They can use that
survey to figure out how much was destroyed in the fire, since some of the
places I hike have been burned already in today's fire.

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#34900

On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 17:52:38 -0000 (UTC), Horace Algier
<horatio@horatio.net> wrote:

>Well then, our area of the hills was recently surveyed. They can use that
>survey to figure out how much was destroyed in the fire, since some of the
>places I hike have been burned already in today's fire.

Incidentally, getting accurate fire map information to the public is a
problem.  I can't find anything that shows a recent fire perimeter for
the Loma Prieta fire.  That's typical.  In 2009, we had the Lockheed
fire, where I decided to do something about the problem.  I'll spare
you the details but color prints of the most recent fire maps started
mysteriously appearing on a sheet of plywood in front of a local
Felton supermarket.  I created some fairly crude, but useful maps,
much to the irritation of some of the officials.  About all I got out
of it was a tour of the cartography (mapping) trailer at the staging
area.  I got a good picture of the problems involved in creating
accurate maps, offered some suggestions, and was given a solemn
promise that things will improve.  Of course, nothing happened or
improved.

I also did something stupid.  I have Cal Fire my email address and was
immediately added to the mailing list of the fire spammers.  Seven
years later, I'm still receiving fire related email spam.

Anyway, these are mostly overlays for Google Earth showing the fire
perimeter and progression:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/Lockheed-Fire/>
This is the last one of the series:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/Lockheed-Fire/CA-CZU-E43J%20Lockheed%208-19-2009%202354.kmz>
If you don't have Google Earth, it looks something like this when
rotated:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/Lockheed-Fire/2009-08-21_Lockheed-Fire-Controlled-Burn.jpg>
Very useful if you want a clue how close the fire is to your home or
if it's safe to return.

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#34908

On Wed, 28 Sep 2016 11:25:40 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Anyway, these are mostly overlays for Google Earth showing the fire
> perimeter and progression:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/Lockheed-Fire/>
> This is the last one of the series:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/Lockheed-Fire/CA-CZU-E43J%20Lockheed%208-19-2009%202354.kmz>
> If you don't have Google Earth, it looks something like this when
> rotated:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/Lockheed-Fire/2009-08-21_Lockheed-Fire-Controlled-Burn.jpg>
> Very useful if you want a clue how close the fire is to your home or
> if it's safe to return.

Thanks for that last map, as I'm not using Google Earth at the moment (it
keeps crashing on Linux). 

As you noted, we're all passing maps back and forth, but your map is nicely
detailed, because what matters to us is mostly the area burned, the area
threatened, the area evacuated, and the roads closed.

If evacuated, the evacuation route and the holding centers are of prime
importance. We have had a ton of the blue and white signs going up in the
neighborhood, so, they're getting us ready as we type. 

Here is a great picture taken from an airplane, of the mushroom cloud I saw
on the first day, but from a far better angle than I saw it then.
http://i.cubeupload.com/1N0PDv.jpg

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#34837

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 00:23:03 +0000 (UTC), Horace Algiers
<horace@horacealgiers.com> wrote:

>Wow. I have friends in that Mountainview HQ but even they told me to get my
>map corrections through the official channels! You have more clout than I
>do down the hill in Mountainview!
>
>This is the official process:
>https://support.google.com/maps/answer/3094088
>
>1 Open Google Maps and make sure you're signed in.
>2 To report a problem about an address, search for that address or click on
>the map to drop a pin.
>3 In the bottom right, click Send feedback.
>4 Choose Report a data problem.
>5 Follow the instructions.
>6 Click Submit.

That sounds suspiciously like the process I followed in about 2008/2009
where a major North/South state highway in Kansas abruptly ended on the
map, but in reality it continued all the way to the Oklahoma border.
They corrected the error in about 7 months, IIRC.

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#34894

On Mon, 26 Sep 2016 14:21:10 -0500, Char Jackson wrote:

> That sounds suspiciously like the process I followed in about 2008/2009
> where a major North/South state highway in Kansas abruptly ended on the
> map, but in reality it continued all the way to the Oklahoma border.
> They corrected the error in about 7 months, IIRC.

They fixed the errors I told them about in roughly a week or two (as I
recall). So maybe they're getting better ... or maybe it just depends on
the "local volunteer" who makes the initial decision... 

Or maybe it depends on the google employee who has to approve the change.

Or maybe it depends on the scope of the change.

Dunno... mine was no longer than two weeks as I recall, so, I consider that
"fast enough".

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#34752

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 22:42:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> There are roads on the maps that don't exist which the mapping
> programs never fail to use as the preferred route.

??? How would any mapping program every use "maps that don't exist"?

Cheers, -- tlvp
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

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#34761

On 2016-09-25 00:26, tlvp wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 22:42:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> 
>> There are roads on the maps that don't exist which the mapping
>> programs never fail to use as the preferred route.
> 
> ??? How would any mapping program every use "maps that don't exist"?

No, roads that do not exist, painted on the maps.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#34765

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 02:45:33 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> On 2016-09-25 00:26, tlvp wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 22:42:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> 
>>> There are roads on the maps that don't exist which the mapping
>>> programs never fail to use as the preferred route.
>> 
>> ??? How would any mapping program every use "maps that don't exist"?
> 
> No, roads that do not exist, painted on the maps.

Oh, sorry. Dangling modifiers like that always confuse the heck out of me.
Thanks for reinterpreting for me. Cheers, -- tlvp
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

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#34732

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 20:20:22 -0700, AL wrote:

> It would still be needed in 5. But not in 6 and above which allow you to 
> deny permissions in settings, no app required.

Ah. Thanks for confirming that an "app ops" app would still be needed in
Android 5, but not in Android 6.

>> In my case, location is asked by the map apps,
> 
> My Maps app (version 9.36.2) wants access to contacts, location, phone, 
> and storage. I leave them all off. So far no app complaints for just 
> bringing up a map. If I want turn by turn directions then I'd of course 
> need location on.

That makes complete sense to me.

I don't "log in" to any map app, so, they only can get where I am when I
turn on their access to GPS (which I usually leave on).

I feel GPS is *accurate enough* for me when I am mapping, so, I have zero
need for "SSID location" or "cell tower location" which Android seems to
call "coarse" or "approximate" location.

Given that I am never always logged into any account (not even Google
Play!), is there any other app, other than a map app, that *needs* location
access?

NOTE: I realize apps like "waze" and "weather" and "gas buddy" can use
location to your advantage *when you need that* - but does any app *need* a
*constant* 24/7 location access to work for you?

>> it makes sense that if an app truly
>> *needs* the location, that it should simply *ask* for the location access
>> at the time it needs it.
> 
> IMO that would be a hassle for people who aren't as paranoid as we are.

I agree that most people might get annoyed when an app *asks* for location
permission - but don't the iOS users live with that exact fact?

Besides, how many apps actually *need* full-time 24/7 location access?

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#34774

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 00:04:42 +0000 (UTC), Horace Algiers wrote:

> My WiFi Analyzer does ask for permission, and it's version 3.9.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/PKxm2Z.png

I have Wifi Analyzer (farproc) version 3.9.11-L and it does *not* ask
permission for Location. It only asks permission for Storage:
<https://s18.postimg.org/8ejr6ryg9/Screenshot_20160925_172934.png>

"App-machtigingen" = Apps Permissions
"Opslagruimte" = Storage

(I have a Nexus 5X, Android 7.0, it has "App ops" built-in.)

-- 
s|b

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