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Phone tap and go

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  Phone tap and go F Murtz <haggisz@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-22 01:42 +1000
    Re: Phone tap and go VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2016-08-21 12:14 -0500
      Re: Phone tap and go nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-21 13:37 -0400
      Re: Phone tap and go F Murtz <haggisz@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-22 15:00 +1000
        Re: Phone tap and go Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 08:10 +0000
    Re: Phone tap and go Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2016-08-21 21:12 +0100
      Re: Phone tap and go nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-08-21 16:39 -0400
      Re: Phone tap and go Chris in Makati <mail@nospam.com> - 2016-08-22 11:15 +0800

#33587 — Phone tap and go

What does google get  from Android bank tap and go, and what is apple 
wanting for its offering(there is some sort of argument with Apple and a 
bunch of Australian banks).

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#33588

F Murtz wrote:

> What does google get  from Android bank tap and go, and what is apple 
> wanting for its offering(there is some sort of argument with Apple and a 
> bunch of Australian banks).

Additional sales of the Android OS since users of low-end smartphones
would have to upgrade to high-end smartphones to have the hardware
needed for the RFC technology (the radio that lets your smartphone
communication is point-of-sale terminals).  The majority of smartphones
do not have NFC hardware.

Android generates $31B in revenue and $22B profit to Google since 2008
(according to Oracle Corp, http://preview.tinyurl.com/j4tm93v,
1-Jan-2016).  Obviously they want to prolong those sales by providing
gimmick features to enlarge their feature set.  They want to increase
sales by having features that require low-end smartphone users to buy
another Android smartphone that does have NFC hardware.  Most of the
forementioned revenue was generated at Google's Play store.  Google has
LOTS of money to throw around.  They paid $1B to Apple to keep Google as
the default search engine for iOS Safari
(http://preview.tinyurl.com/h8bbnmf)

Android Pay is nearly identical to Apply Pay.  So far, and that is only
so far, Google is not taking a cut of transactions handled through
Android Pay.  See:

http://www.technobuffalo.com/2015/06/07/google-reportedly-wont-take-a-cut-from-android-pay-transactions/

Well, that is for the moment.  By offering similar services for free, I
suspect they want to undermine Apple Pay, get more users and merchants
moved over to Android Pay, and then come up later with a subscription or
fee schedule or worse to shove ads in their app to generate revenue.  

James Bond "Live and Let Die" (1973)
Kananga: "Sell" heroin ... for money?!
Bond:    My apologies. I'm sure you'll simply give it away.
Kananga: Excellent, Mr Bond. That's precisely what I intend to do. Two 
         tons of it, to be exact.  When entering into a fiercely 
         competitive field, one finds it advisable to give away free 
         samples. Man or woman, black or white. I don't discriminate.
Bond:    Two tons of heroin with a street value well over a billion 
         dollars nationally distributed free? That should make a certain 
         group of families rather angry, wouldn't you say?
Kananga: Angry? Why, my dear Mr Bond, it'll positively drive them out of 
         their minds.
Bond:    And subsequently out of the business. Quite ingenious. A sort 
         of junkies' welfare system.
Kananga: Merely until the number of addicts in the country has doubled, 
         shall we say? Then I will market that acreage you blundered 
         into the other day. That heroin will be very expensive indeed, 
         leaving myself and the phone company the only two going 
         monopolies in this nation for years to come.

Google seems more than cash capable of undercutting Apple to give away
their Android Pay service ... for awhile and probably long enough to
steal away a huge chunk Apple Pay's revenues.  As has been proven time
and time again, including Microsoft with Windows 10, give it away free
and there will plenty of suckers.

The software industry is rife with freebies that get yanked away once
the volunteer users have sufficiently load tested a product and it gets
stable enough to become a commercially revenue-generating commodity.
However, also remember Google is also well known for conducting
experiments that they abandon after 3 to 5 years.  If Google cannot
break Apple's back to steal away the NFC technology then they'll just
terminate the experiment, and everyone that came to rely on Android Pay
is screwed.

Also, in the techbuffalo article mentioned above, Google might find
trying to extract a free (from users or merchants) rather increasingly
difficult since Visa and Mastercard added their tokenization services
(which Google likes to pretend is their feature to protect your
transactions when using Android Pay).  Apple has their own proprietary
tokenization process and why they can charge a fee.  If you were a
merchant, would you continue paying the extra free to Apple or would you
switch to a bank providing Visa or MasterCard merchant services so you
eliminate doling out a fee by embarcing Android Pay transactions?

If Google cannot upset Apple in the NFC market, oh gee, guess we get to
see ads in the app.  What a surprise ... not!  Pretty hard to find any
free apps that aren't riddled with ads.  Some but not many.

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#33589

In article <e1u5rtFjfqU1@mid.individual.net>, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH>
wrote:

> > What does google get  from Android bank tap and go, and what is apple 
> > wanting for its offering(there is some sort of argument with Apple and a 
> > bunch of Australian banks).
> 
> Additional sales of the Android OS since users of low-end smartphones
> would have to upgrade to high-end smartphones to have the hardware
> needed for the RFC technology (the radio that lets your smartphone
> communication is point-of-sale terminals).  The majority of smartphones
> do not have NFC hardware.
> 
> Android generates $31B in revenue and $22B profit to Google since 2008
> (according to Oracle Corp, http://preview.tinyurl.com/j4tm93v,
> 1-Jan-2016).  Obviously they want to prolong those sales by providing
> gimmick features to enlarge their feature set.  They want to increase
> sales by having features that require low-end smartphone users to buy
> another Android smartphone that does have NFC hardware.  Most of the
> forementioned revenue was generated at Google's Play store.  Google has
> LOTS of money to throw around.  They paid $1B to Apple to keep Google as
> the default search engine for iOS Safari
> (http://preview.tinyurl.com/h8bbnmf)

google makes a lot of money from ios users.

microsoft makes a lot of money from licensing android patents.

> Android Pay is nearly identical to Apply Pay.  So far, and that is only
> so far, Google is not taking a cut of transactions handled through
> Android Pay.  See:
>
> http://www.technobuffalo.com/2015/06/07/google-reportedly-wont-take-a-cut-from-
> android-pay-transactions/
> 
> Well, that is for the moment.  By offering similar services for free, I
> suspect they want to undermine Apple Pay, get more users and merchants
> moved over to Android Pay, and then come up later with a subscription or
> fee schedule or worse to shove ads in their app to generate revenue.  

no, because if a merchant supports one, they support the other, often
times without even realizing it.

google isn't taking a cut so that they can get more banks on board
which means more users can activate the cards they actually have.

if the payment terminal supports contactless tap to pay, it quite
likely supports android/apple pay unless it's explicitly disabled,
which can happen if the merchant had a contract with a competing
system, namely the the now dead currentc, or has launched their own
payment system, such as walmart pay or cvs pay.

both of those companies know their systems suck, so they lock out the
mobile payment systems that people actually use, namely android/apple
pay.

> James Bond "Live and Let Die" (1973)
> Kananga: "Sell" heroin ... for money?!
> Bond:    My apologies. I'm sure you'll simply give it away.
> Kananga: Excellent, Mr Bond. That's precisely what I intend to do. Two 
>          tons of it, to be exact.  When entering into a fiercely 
>          competitive field, one finds it advisable to give away free 
>          samples. Man or woman, black or white. I don't discriminate.
> Bond:    Two tons of heroin with a street value well over a billion 
>          dollars nationally distributed free? That should make a certain 
>          group of families rather angry, wouldn't you say?
> Kananga: Angry? Why, my dear Mr Bond, it'll positively drive them out of 
>          their minds.
> Bond:    And subsequently out of the business. Quite ingenious. A sort 
>          of junkies' welfare system.
> Kananga: Merely until the number of addicts in the country has doubled, 
>          shall we say? Then I will market that acreage you blundered 
>          into the other day. That heroin will be very expensive indeed, 
>          leaving myself and the phone company the only two going 
>          monopolies in this nation for years to come.
> 
> Google seems more than cash capable of undercutting Apple to give away
> their Android Pay service ... for awhile and probably long enough to
> steal away a huge chunk Apple Pay's revenues.  As has been proven time
> and time again, including Microsoft with Windows 10, give it away free
> and there will plenty of suckers.

the only entity that pays is the banks, which they will do for reduced
fraud.

merchants and customers do not pay anything extra.

> The software industry is rife with freebies that get yanked away once
> the volunteer users have sufficiently load tested a product and it gets
> stable enough to become a commercially revenue-generating commodity.
> However, also remember Google is also well known for conducting
> experiments that they abandon after 3 to 5 years.  If Google cannot
> break Apple's back to steal away the NFC technology then they'll just
> terminate the experiment, and everyone that came to rely on Android Pay
> is screwed.

android pay and apple pay are not going away.

> Also, in the techbuffalo article mentioned above, Google might find
> trying to extract a free (from users or merchants) rather increasingly
> difficult since Visa and Mastercard added their tokenization services
> (which Google likes to pretend is their feature to protect your
> transactions when using Android Pay).  Apple has their own proprietary
> tokenization process and why they can charge a fee.  If you were a
> merchant, would you continue paying the extra free to Apple or would you
> switch to a bank providing Visa or MasterCard merchant services so you
> eliminate doling out a fee by embarcing Android Pay transactions?

there is nothing proprietary about apple pay and merchants do not pay
*anything*.

apple pay uses standard emv protocols, just like android pay, and even
works on terminals that do not explicitly support it (unless blocked).

as i said, banks pay a small percentage because it greatly reduces
fraud, and for all intents, to zero. 

> If Google cannot upset Apple in the NFC market, oh gee, guess we get to
> see ads in the app.  What a surprise ... not!  Pretty hard to find any
> free apps that aren't riddled with ads.  Some but not many.

google isn't trying to upset apple in the nfc market. they're offering
a mobile payment solution just like apple does.

the problem is with the *other* payment solutions, such as walmart pay
and cvs pay, which use their own dedicated app that scans qr codes.
the entire process is cumbersome and you're dealing with the security
of a third party app rather than the phone, and a dedicated app per
store, so it's yet another app to find after unlocking the phone.

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#33597

VanguardLH wrote:
> F Murtz wrote:
>
>> What does google get  from Android bank tap and go, and what is apple
>> wanting for its offering(there is some sort of argument with Apple and a
>> bunch of Australian banks).
>
> Additional sales of the Android OS since users of low-end smartphones
> would have to upgrade to high-end smartphones to have the hardware
> needed for the RFC technology (the radio that lets your smartphone
> communication is point-of-sale terminals).  The majority of smartphones
> do not have NFC hardware.
>
> Android generates $31B in revenue and $22B profit to Google since 2008
> (according to Oracle Corp, http://preview.tinyurl.com/j4tm93v,
> 1-Jan-2016).  Obviously they want to prolong those sales by providing
> gimmick features to enlarge their feature set.  They want to increase
> sales by having features that require low-end smartphone users to buy
> another Android smartphone that does have NFC hardware.  Most of the
> forementioned revenue was generated at Google's Play store.  Google has
> LOTS of money to throw around.  They paid $1B to Apple to keep Google as
> the default search engine for iOS Safari
> (http://preview.tinyurl.com/h8bbnmf)
>
> Android Pay is nearly identical to Apply Pay.  So far, and that is only
> so far, Google is not taking a cut of transactions handled through
> Android Pay.  See:
>
> http://www.technobuffalo.com/2015/06/07/google-reportedly-wont-take-a-cut-from-android-pay-transactions/
>
> Well, that is for the moment.  By offering similar services for free, I
> suspect they want to undermine Apple Pay, get more users and merchants
> moved over to Android Pay, and then come up later with a subscription or
> fee schedule or worse to shove ads in their app to generate revenue.
>
> James Bond "Live and Let Die" (1973)
> Kananga: "Sell" heroin ... for money?!
> Bond:    My apologies. I'm sure you'll simply give it away.
> Kananga: Excellent, Mr Bond. That's precisely what I intend to do. Two
>           tons of it, to be exact.  When entering into a fiercely
>           competitive field, one finds it advisable to give away free
>           samples. Man or woman, black or white. I don't discriminate.
> Bond:    Two tons of heroin with a street value well over a billion
>           dollars nationally distributed free? That should make a certain
>           group of families rather angry, wouldn't you say?
> Kananga: Angry? Why, my dear Mr Bond, it'll positively drive them out of
>           their minds.
> Bond:    And subsequently out of the business. Quite ingenious. A sort
>           of junkies' welfare system.
> Kananga: Merely until the number of addicts in the country has doubled,
>           shall we say? Then I will market that acreage you blundered
>           into the other day. That heroin will be very expensive indeed,
>           leaving myself and the phone company the only two going
>           monopolies in this nation for years to come.
>
> Google seems more than cash capable of undercutting Apple to give away
> their Android Pay service ... for awhile and probably long enough to
> steal away a huge chunk Apple Pay's revenues.  As has been proven time
> and time again, including Microsoft with Windows 10, give it away free
> and there will plenty of suckers.
>
> The software industry is rife with freebies that get yanked away once
> the volunteer users have sufficiently load tested a product and it gets
> stable enough to become a commercially revenue-generating commodity.
> However, also remember Google is also well known for conducting
> experiments that they abandon after 3 to 5 years.  If Google cannot
> break Apple's back to steal away the NFC technology then they'll just
> terminate the experiment, and everyone that came to rely on Android Pay
> is screwed.
>
> Also, in the techbuffalo article mentioned above, Google might find
> trying to extract a free (from users or merchants) rather increasingly
> difficult since Visa and Mastercard added their tokenization services
> (which Google likes to pretend is their feature to protect your
> transactions when using Android Pay).  Apple has their own proprietary
> tokenization process and why they can charge a fee.  If you were a
> merchant, would you continue paying the extra free to Apple or would you
> switch to a bank providing Visa or MasterCard merchant services so you
> eliminate doling out a fee by embarcing Android Pay transactions?
>
> If Google cannot upset Apple in the NFC market, oh gee, guess we get to
> see ads in the app.  What a surprise ... not!  Pretty hard to find any
> free apps that aren't riddled with ads.  Some but not many.
>
apple wants a cut of every transaction, if I were the banks I would tell 
apple to get stuffed and have an add campaign suggesting people buy 
android,if all banks united they may get somewhere, but they wont.

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#33598

F Murtz <haggisz@hotmail.com> wrote:
> VanguardLH wrote:
>> F Murtz wrote:
>> 
>>  If you were a
>> merchant, would you continue paying the extra free to Apple or would you
>> switch to a bank providing Visa or MasterCard merchant services so you
>> eliminate doling out a fee by embarcing Android Pay transactions?
>> 
>> If Google cannot upset Apple in the NFC market, oh gee, guess we get to
>> see ads in the app.  What a surprise ... not!  Pretty hard to find any
>> free apps that aren't riddled with ads.  Some but not many.
>> 
> apple wants a cut of every transaction, if I were the banks I would tell 
> apple to get stuffed and have an add campaign suggesting people buy 
> android,if all banks united they may get somewhere, but they wont.
> 

The fact is Apple are simply copying the banks' tactics. The banks make
money on every debit, credit and contactless payment you make, so they're
probably pissed off for being shown up as the technological dinosaurs that
they are.

Google give things away because that's their business model: you and your
data are where they make their money. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#33590

On 2016-08-21, F Murtz <haggisz@hotmail.com> wrote:
> What does google get  from Android bank tap and go, and what is apple 
> wanting for its offering(there is some sort of argument with Apple and a 
> bunch of Australian banks).

I can't understand why anyone would fish out an expensive smartphone and
mess around getting the right app running in order to do something that
a smartcard can do without even being taken out of your wallet (and
which has been happening in the UK for some time already).  A shop
checkout or a bus door or a railway turnstile are not good places to be
waving costly hardware about.  As for letting any smartphone have access
to a bank account - the mind boggles.

-- 
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
--  Whiskers 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

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#33591

In article <slrnnrk2p5.864.catwheezel@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:

> > What does google get  from Android bank tap and go, and what is apple 
> > wanting for its offering(there is some sort of argument with Apple and a 
> > bunch of Australian banks).
> 
> I can't understand why anyone would fish out an expensive smartphone and
> mess around getting the right app running in order to do something that
> a smartcard can do without even being taken out of your wallet (and
> which has been happening in the UK for some time already). 

because it's more secure than tapping a card and not everywhere
supports contactless cards either.

> A shop
> checkout or a bus door or a railway turnstile are not good places to be
> waving costly hardware about. 

don't wave where you're not comfortable. 

and plenty of people are *on* their phone while at a checkout or on a
train, so their phone is already out.

> As for letting any smartphone have access
> to a bank account - the mind boggles.

there is no access to your bank account.

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#33596

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 21:12:21 +0100, Whiskers
<catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:

>On 2016-08-21, F Murtz <haggisz@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> What does google get  from Android bank tap and go, and what is apple 
>> wanting for its offering(there is some sort of argument with Apple and a 
>> bunch of Australian banks).
>
>I can't understand why anyone would fish out an expensive smartphone and
>mess around getting the right app running in order to do something that
>a smartcard can do without even being taken out of your wallet (and
>which has been happening in the UK for some time already).  A shop
>checkout or a bus door or a railway turnstile are not good places to be
>waving costly hardware about.  As for letting any smartphone have access
>to a bank account - the mind boggles.

No fishing is involved.

As for "mess around getting the right app running"?? I don't do any of
that. I just pull the phone out of my pocket and hold it up to the
terminal. Transaction complete.

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