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Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy

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  Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-03 16:30 +0930
    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 08:09 +0000
      Apple tracking of WLAN APs (was: Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-03 11:19 +0100
        Re: Apple tracking of WLAN APs (was: Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy) Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 22:58 +0000
      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-04 02:27 +0930
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 20:46 +0000
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 06:15 +0600
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-05 00:34 +0000
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 07:05 +0600
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-05 01:47 +0000
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 14:00 -0300
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-05 17:49 +0000
                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 16:14 -0300
                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-06 00:06 +0000
                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-06 13:39 +0200
                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-06 15:37 +0000
                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-06 20:23 +0200
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 02:16 +0300
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 13:42 +0200
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 21:06 +0300
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-07 19:11 +0100
                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 21:29 +0200
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 05:58 +0300
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-08 09:57 +0100
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 21:28 +0200
                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 06:38 +0300
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 09:48 +0200
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 22:36 +0400
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-08 10:09 +0100
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-09-07 15:28 -0700
                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-08 00:46 +0100
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 06:58 +0300
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 07:39 +0000
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 08:58 +0200
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-08 10:18 +0100
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 12:02 +0200
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "....winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2026-09-07 02:01 -0400
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2026-09-07 01:47 -0500
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-07 10:18 +0000
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 13:30 +0200
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 21:22 +0300
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-07 22:28 +0000
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 01:50 +0200
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 07:29 +0300
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 07:22 +0300
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 07:24 +0000
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-08 10:44 +0000
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 13:27 +0000
                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-08 09:47 -0600
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 19:51 +0300
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2026-09-08 10:23 -0700
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-08 18:12 +0000
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 22:18 +0400
                                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2026-09-09 19:46 -0700
                                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-10 09:38 +0200
                                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-10 10:21 +0000
                                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-11 07:45 +0000
                                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2026-09-11 09:49 -0700
                                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-11 19:29 +0200
                                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-11 20:26 +0200
                                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-25 23:43 +0800
                                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2026-09-25 13:14 -0700
                                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-26 04:41 +0800
                                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-25 22:17 +0000
                                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-26 07:26 +0800
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 18:59 +0200
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 21:20 +0400
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 19:37 +0200
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2026-09-08 17:56 +0000
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 20:03 +0200
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-09 11:11 +0100
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-08 19:26 +0200
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-08 11:36 -0600
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 20:05 +0200
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-08 20:35 +0200
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 19:06 +0000
                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-07 10:47 +0100
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 13:34 +0200
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 18:48 +0200
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-07 18:46 +0100
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-07 14:04 +0000
                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:47 +0300
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nick Charles <none@none.none> - 2026-09-05 01:11 +0000
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 07:24 +0600
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 23:15 -0700
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 14:18 -0300
                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-09-05 16:40 -0700
                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 02:40 +0300
                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:09 +0300
                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:12 +0300
                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:13 +0300
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:14 +0300
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:16 +0300
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:18 +0300
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 04:23 +0300
                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-09-06 19:03 -0700
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-06 11:57 +0000
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-05 11:01 +0100
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 15:14 -0300
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-06 01:06 +0100
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-06 18:10 +0000
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-06 20:27 +0200
                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:31 +0300
                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 13:52 +0200
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-05 06:44 +0000
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 14:35 -0300
      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-09-03 15:48 -0700
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc> - 2026-09-04 02:02 +0300
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 07:46 +0600
      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-04 10:28 +0200
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-04 11:44 +0000
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-04 13:44 +0100
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 06:55 +0600
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 20:28 +0300
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 21:45 +0300
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 21:28 +0200
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 07:38 +0300
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 09:54 +0200
    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 22:58 +0000
      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 07:13 +0600
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-05 07:57 +0000
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 14:48 -0300
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-05 12:13 -0600
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 15:18 -0300
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-05 12:25 -0600
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 16:22 -0300
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-06 00:11 +0000
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-05 09:17 +0100
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-05 11:22 +0000
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 15:13 -0300
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-06 07:55 +0000
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 07:50 +0300
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 07:10 +0000
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 09:58 +0200
                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 21:00 +0400
                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 21:26 +0000
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-06 20:39 +0200
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 08:07 +0300
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 10:04 +0200
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-08 13:03 +0200
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 13:38 +0200
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 22:30 +0400

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#156151

On 9/10/2026 10:46 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> I moved to the hills in about 1974(?).  There were enough lines and
> phone numbers for everyone.  Near the end of the 1970's, the BBS's
> (bulleting board services) and garage ISP's arrived.  Available phone
> lines and numbers suddenly became scarce.  In about 1994, the BBS and
> garage ISP's moved into problem office buildings, which freed up quite
> a few phone lines, which were immediately consumed by a student
> population increase inspired by rapidly rising real estate costs.
> <https://www.biggestuscities.com/city/santa-cruz-california>

Dear Jeff,

Did you get a ...00 phone number for your landline?  Somehow, I managed
to get a home /landline/ number in Iceland that ends in 00, and you can
give me a call.  As I don't live in Iceland anymore, this number is now
S.I.P. and I'll have to turn the "phone" on so give me some advance no-
tice before you attempt at calling me.

Alternatively, I can give you a call using my U.S. based S.I.P. number
and you'll merely have to tell me when is a good time to call you.


Best wishes, and happy phone numbers!
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;
Federated at https://fed.brid.gy/bsky/myrkraverk.bsky.social

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#156154

On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 23:43:07 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
<johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

>On 9/10/2026 10:46 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> I moved to the hills in about 1974(?).  There were enough lines and
>> phone numbers for everyone.  Near the end of the 1970's, the BBS's
>> (bulleting board services) and garage ISP's arrived.  Available phone
>> lines and numbers suddenly became scarce.  In about 1994, the BBS and
>> garage ISP's moved into problem office buildings, which freed up quite
>> a few phone lines, which were immediately consumed by a student
>> population increase inspired by rapidly rising real estate costs.
>> <https://www.biggestuscities.com/city/santa-cruz-california>
>
>Dear Jeff,
>
>Did you get a ...00 phone number for your landline?

No.  I've had the same phone number since about 1974.  It's in the
signature.  However, it's no longer a "land line" using copper wires
from Ma Bell.  It's been an Ooma VoIP number since Apr 2022.  I use
Xfinity for internet connectivity.  I've been retired since the end of
2020 and therefore do not need a reliable service.  Best effort is
sufficient.

>Somehow, I managed
>to get a home /landline/ number in Iceland that ends in 00, and you can
>give me a call.  As I don't live in Iceland anymore, this number is now
>S.I.P. and I'll have to turn the "phone" on so give me some advance no-
>tice before you attempt at calling me.

Ooma uses SIP (session initiation protocol).  To make a SIP call, I
need to connect one of my SIP phones or adapters, and call direct.
However, I have ports 5060-5062 blocked because I got tired of having
my SIP phones probed and crashed.  

>Alternatively, I can give you a call using my U.S. based S.I.P. number
>and you'll merely have to tell me when is a good time to call you.

At this time, I don't want to talk to anyone, especially if I need to
reconstruct my SIP phone setup.  I've been working on projects that
are going too slowly but which hopefully will end by November (or
December).

>Best wishes, and happy phone numbers!


-- 
Jeff Liebermann                 jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272      http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272   AE6KS    831-336-2558
                           

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#156156

On 9/26/2026 4:14 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 23:43:07 +0800, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
> <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On 9/10/2026 10:46 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> I moved to the hills in about 1974(?).  There were enough lines and
>>> phone numbers for everyone.  Near the end of the 1970's, the BBS's
>>> (bulleting board services) and garage ISP's arrived.  Available phone
>>> lines and numbers suddenly became scarce.  In about 1994, the BBS and
>>> garage ISP's moved into problem office buildings, which freed up quite
>>> a few phone lines, which were immediately consumed by a student
>>> population increase inspired by rapidly rising real estate costs.
>>> <https://www.biggestuscities.com/city/santa-cruz-california>
>>
>> Dear Jeff,
>>
>> Did you get a ...00 phone number for your landline?
> 
> No.  I've had the same phone number since about 1974.  It's in the
> signature.  However, it's no longer a "land line" using copper wires
> from Ma Bell.  It's been an Ooma VoIP number since Apr 2022.  I use
> Xfinity for internet connectivity.  I've been retired since the end of
> 2020 and therefore do not need a reliable service.  Best effort is
> sufficient.
> 
>> Somehow, I managed
>> to get a home /landline/ number in Iceland that ends in 00, and you can
>> give me a call.  As I don't live in Iceland anymore, this number is now
>> S.I.P. and I'll have to turn the "phone" on so give me some advance no-
>> tice before you attempt at calling me.
> 
> Ooma uses SIP (session initiation protocol).  To make a SIP call, I
> need to connect one of my SIP phones or adapters, and call direct.
> However, I have ports 5060-5062 blocked because I got tired of having
> my SIP phones probed and crashed.
> 
>> Alternatively, I can give you a call using my U.S. based S.I.P. number
>> and you'll merely have to tell me when is a good time to call you.
> 
> At this time, I don't want to talk to anyone, especially if I need to
> reconstruct my SIP phone setup.  I've been working on projects that
> are going too slowly but which hopefully will end by November (or
> December).
> 
>> Best wishes, and happy phone numbers!
> 
> 

In that case, I simply wish you happy retirement, and success in your
projects.  Have a nice life!
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;
Federated at https://fed.brid.gy/bsky/myrkraverk.bsky.social

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#156160

On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 13:14:48 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> However, I have ports 5060-5062 blocked because I got tired of
> having my SIP phones probed and crashed.

Are SIP phones that easy to crash?

Have you thought of interposing some kind of intermediary SIP server,
which should be more robust? Kamailio and Asterisk come to mind.

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#156161

On 9/26/2026 6:17 AM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 13:14:48 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> 
>> However, I have ports 5060-5062 blocked because I got tired of
>> having my SIP phones probed and crashed.
> 
> Are SIP phones that easy to crash?
> 
> Have you thought of interposing some kind of intermediary SIP server,
> which should be more robust? Kamailio and Asterisk come to mind.

Lawrence, Lawrence, Lawrence!  Can't you read?  Did you not notice the
man said he doesn't want to talk to anybody?  So of course he hasn't
thought of it, he has other projects to work on!
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via XS News
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;
Federated at https://fed.brid.gy/bsky/myrkraverk.bsky.social

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#155779

On 2026-09-08 17:47, Lane W wrote:
> Why do you call him/her Arlen if his/her preferred name is Maria? Are 
> you from the 70s?

Because he is not Maria.

He is a nameshifter, he changes his name eventually. We have known him 
for a long time as Arlen in the past, so that's the name we stick to, 
not the name he uses at the current time.

I strongly dislike that he is using a woman's name, so I refuse to call 
him by that.

He is not a man that discovers his true self is feminine and changes his 
name. I would respect that.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#155782

Carlos E.R. wrote:
> I strongly dislike that he is using a woman's name, so I refuse to call 
> him by that.

Hi Carlos,

Since almost nobody on these technical newsgroups are females, IMHO, I
think I'll use Maria only for a few years and change it to, oh, Sally.

That would be another clear and obvious indication that I'm not hiding for
even a moment FROM YOU, but from robot header aggregation tools, which is
more and more of a problem even as I recognized the issue two decades ago.

And while I get why you associate nymshifting with the disgusting trolls,
you need to take an elementary course in Logic (or Occam's Razor at least).

A person has to rob a bank to be called a disgusting bank robber, right?
Just putting a mask on his face for privacy does not make him a criminal.

In fact, your disgusting habit of absurdly claiming everyone who uses a
fake name is a troll is starting to grate on me as it's disingenuous.

You may be truly a Carlos, but your oft-repeated claim that anyone who
doesn't use their real name in Usenet posts is a troll is patently absurd.

I randomize the headers by a *lot* of things, time zone being one of them.
So is the IP address. And, at times, the newsreader (usually when they go
suddenly defunct such as with netfront, mixmin, aioe, dizum, et al.)

But if it takes you or anyone more than a split second to realize only I
post like I do, with perfect English grammer, punctuation & sentence
structure, and from Santa Cruz Mountains, with a Silicon Valley heritage,
and with the same phone with a unique homescreen (since 2021) and the same
PC with a unique desktop (since 2009) with the same privacy focus, and even
down to the same way I put a period after the double-quote, you're a moron.

Hell, who posts this kind of screenshots for decades on end, sans changing?
 <https://i.postimg.cc/xdSMtBkn/vysor36.jpg> scrcpy vs Vysor resolution
 <https://i.postimg.cc/TYvqdxCT/vysor35.jpg> iOS & Android PC mirroring
 <https://i.postimg.cc/k5gv0yw8/vysor34.jpg> Apple iOS & Android mirroring
 <https://i.postimg.cc/Njg6Xx3V/vysor33.jpg> Preparing Vysor on device
 <https://i.postimg.cc/xjz3V8Gs/vysor32.jpg> ScrCpy vs Vysor PC mirror 
 <https://i.postimg.cc/k4K8dZqv/vysor31.jpg> Random MAC address is static
 <https://i.postimg.cc/nchSVcmS/vysor30.jpg> Static/Reserved IP address
 <https://i.postimg.cc/XqrD5Hqm/vysor29.jpg> Removing Apple iTunes crap
 <https://i.postimg.cc/KYbVWDp3/vysor28.jpg> Nuking Apple shitware 1 by 1
 <https://i.postimg.cc/MGbkZFfY/vysor27.jpg> The bloatware is everywhere
 <https://i.postimg.cc/hP6R2xqV/vysor26.jpg> iTunes crapware won't install
 <https://i.postimg.cc/fTy57WSY/vysor25.jpg> Best iOS drivers installed
 <https://i.postimg.cc/3wmtyL46/vysor24.jpg> Apple Device working properly
 <https://i.postimg.cc/tCvS8nGr/vysor23.jpg> iPad is connected to Win10
 <https://i.postimg.cc/Kz7pW9mL/vysor22.jpg> Apple Win10 iOS drivers suck
 <https://i.postimg.cc/QdVPMkqG/vysor21.jpg> Apple iPad on Win10 over USB 
 <https://i.postimg.cc/J7cSYhhg/vysor20.jpg> Classic Apple error 2502
 <https://i.postimg.cc/yxP5DL5B/vysor19.jpg> Classic Apple error 2503
 <https://i.postimg.cc/V6X28fWJ/vysor18.jpg> Apple Mobile Device Support
 <https://i.postimg.cc/ZqB1wF9F/vysor17.jpg> Install Apple AMDS engine
 <https://i.postimg.cc/Jzdf3dhz/vysor16.jpg> Classic Apple Error Code 2503
 <https://i.postimg.cc/c4TyCJyY/vysor15.jpg> Apple Mobile Device Support
 <https://i.postimg.cc/SRhF22xL/vysor14.jpg> Connect over the Internet
 <https://i.postimg.cc/bv4jPFXB/vysor13.jpg> Vysor Camera virtual webcam
 <https://i.postimg.cc/XvPnJY5x/vysor10.jpg> Vysor Windows Virtual Camera
 <https://i.postimg.cc/wxL9qHjc/vysor11.jpg> Vysor searches for Android/iOS
 <https://i.postimg.cc/2S2zsw8s/vysor09.jpg> Classic Apple Error code 2503
 <https://i.postimg.cc/sg6r6gTy/vysor12.jpg> Vysor easily finds Android
 <https://i.postimg.cc/yYCYcxbb/vysor08.jpg> Apple Mobile Device Support 
 <https://i.postimg.cc/Y2WCvYbF/vysor07.jpg> iOS requires Apple AMDS kluge
 <https://i.postimg.cc/ydJYXZKw/vysor06.jpg> Remote mirror over the net
 <https://i.postimg.cc/d0V03fxQ/vysor05.jpg> Vysor Internet mirroring
 <https://i.postimg.cc/XY3qSqKC/vysor04.jpg> Vysor ADB USB setup switches
 <https://i.postimg.cc/v8gc5pHc/vysor03.jpg> Vysor remote sharing
 <https://i.postimg.cc/V6TPYG3h/vysor02.jpg> Vysor console operation
 <https://i.postimg.cc/QNwjsCDM/vysor01.jpg> Vysor Android/iOS PC mirroring

Only the trolls claim I troll.
As you have to actually troll to be called a troll.

Just desiring privacy from robotic aggregation, while you may believe
nobody has that right of privacy, does not make my valuable posts trolls.

However, it can be said that responding to your incessant trolls, may
count, so stop trolling this newsgorup with your off-content bullshit.

Stick to the technical subject so we don't need to defend against your
incessant trolls.

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#155786

On 2026-09-08 19:20, Maria Sophia wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> I strongly dislike that he is using a woman's name, so I refuse to call
>> him by that.
> 
> Hi Carlos,
> 
> Since almost nobody on these technical newsgroups are females, IMHO, I
> think I'll use Maria only for a few years and change it to, oh, Sally.
> 
> That would be another clear and obvious indication that I'm not hiding for
> even a moment FROM YOU, but from robot header aggregation tools, which is
> more and more of a problem even as I recognized the issue two decades ago.
> 
> And while I get why you associate nymshifting with the disgusting trolls,
> you need to take an elementary course in Logic (or Occam's Razor at least).
> 
> A person has to rob a bank to be called a disgusting bank robber, right?
> Just putting a mask on his face for privacy does not make him a criminal.
> 
> In fact, your disgusting habit of absurdly claiming everyone who uses a
> fake name is a troll is starting to grate on me as it's disingenuous.

No, I never said such a thing. Citation, please?

...

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#155787

Carlos E.R. wrote:

>He is not a man that discovers his true self is feminine and changes his 
>name. I would respect that.

Or one could just use initials and make folks guess...sweetie... ;)

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#155790

On 2026-09-08 19:56, AJL wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote:
> 
>> He is not a man that discovers his true self is feminine and changes 
>> his name. I would respect that.
> 
> Or one could just use initials and make folks guess...sweetie... ;)
> 
> 

X-D

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#155813

On 2026-09-08, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> On 2026-09-08 17:47, Lane W wrote:
>> Why do you call him/her Arlen if his/her preferred name is Maria?
>> Are you from the 70s?
>
> Because he is not Maria.
>
> He is a nameshifter, he changes his name eventually. We have known him
> for a long time as Arlen in the past, so that's the name we stick to,
> not the name he uses at the current time.
>
> I strongly dislike that he is using a woman's name, so I refuse to
> call him by that.
>
> He is not a man that discovers his true self is feminine and changes
> his name. I would respect that.

Ok.

I personally don't give it much attention, again as far as this isn't
being used for "killfile evasion" or to mislead.

IMHO one of the great things of media like USENET and IRC networks is
that you can interact without thinking too much about identity, name,
appearance. There's some sort of identification, and that's enough to
tell who is who in a conversation.

There can be schemes to enforce some level of identification
(identifying accounts or posting hosts in netnews, identd on IRC), but
even these only require an identity, it doesn't have to be an "official"
one, so to speak.

-- 
Nuno Silva

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#155784

Lane,

> Why do you call him/her Arlen if his/her preferred name is Maria?

Arlen Holder is a so-called nym-shifter, who changes his nym 
once-in-a-while - ostensibly so he cannot be tracked (by the people who 
scrape the newsgroups for information).

Although you jumped on the gender identity bandwagon, Arlens current name 
has got zero to do with it.  Current, as in the last number of years he has 
gone thru a number of them.  Male as well as female ones.

Something you could have known if you would either have visited these 
newsgroups a bit longer or just had asked for it.

> Are you from the 70s?

You know what a hypocrite is ?   Thats someone who tells someone not to do 
{something}, while doing that {something}  themselves.   You know, the "do 
as I say, not as I do" kind of person.

In your case : being judgemental while telling someone else not to be so. 
Funny, that.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#155785

R.Wieser wrote:
> Lane,
> 
>> Why do you call him/her Arlen if his/her preferred name is Maria?
> 
> Arlen Holder is a so-called nym-shifter, who changes his nym
> once-in-a-while - ostensibly so he cannot be tracked (by the people who
> scrape the newsgroups for information).
> 
> Although you jumped on the gender identity bandwagon, Arlens current name
> has got zero to do with it.  Current, as in the last number of years he has
> gone thru a number of them.  Male as well as female ones.
> 
> Something you could have known if you would either have visited these
> newsgroups a bit longer or just had asked for it.

How would I have asked for this information differently than I did, 
receiving exactly what I wanted to know? Would my reputation have 
remained sparkling if I had asked for it in your manner?

>> Are you from the 70s?
> 
> You know what a hypocrite is ?   Thats someone who tells someone not to do
> {something}, while doing that {something}  themselves.   You know, the "do
> as I say, not as I do" kind of person.

I've found that people who mangle transwomen by calling them male 
pronouns are the manure of the earth. It's a repeating pattern that I've 
noticed.

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#155789

On 2026-09-08 19:36, Lane W wrote:
> R.Wieser wrote:
>> Lane,
>>
>>> Why do you call him/her Arlen i

...

> I've found that people who mangle transwomen by calling them male 
> pronouns are the manure of the earth. It's a repeating pattern that I've 
> noticed.
> 

Not the case. I would respect that.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#155794

Lane,

> How would I have asked for this information differently than I did,

Really ?   You cannot think of *any* other way ?   Thats hard to imagine.

But hey, what about "Why are you responding to Maria as if she's named Arlen 
?" or even "I though you where responding to Maria, but you are using the 
name Arlen.  How come ?".

I'm sure that if you think *really hard* you can come up with some others 
yourself.

>>> Are you from the 70s?
>>
>> You know what a hypocrite is ?   Thats someone who tells someone not to
>> do {something}, while doing that {something}  themselves.   You know, the 
>> "do as I say, not as I do" kind of person.
>
> I've found that people who mangle transwomen by calling them male pronouns 
> are the manure of the earth. It's a repeating pattern that I've noticed.

Thats exactly why you are judgemental : you read something and directly 
think the worst of whomever wrote it - and jump on the barricades, already 
attacking.

It ofcourse doesn't help that you seem to be one of those "brainiacs" who 
thinks that *all* persons of a certain age are automatically bad - ofcourse 
with zero support for such a conclusion.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#155797

Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>>> On 2026-09-07, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>>>>> To me it's fairly intuitive that if someone has taken the unusual step
>>>>> of explicitly marking their network as "hidden", then its location
>>>>> should not be included in these databases - especially given the fact
>>>>> that the "_nomap" SSID method doesn't work for "hidden" networks.
>>>> 
>>>> I guess the challenge here is how can they know not to add the MAC
>>>> address if the SSID with the "_nomap" request invisible.
>>> 
>>> That's the core of the issue - I would guess that Android devices are
>>> only uploading BSSIDs to the Google database when they see that Access
>>> Point broadcast an SSID, and that SSID doesn't end with "_nomap".
>>> 
>>> iPhones on the other hand, I would guess are uploading BSSIDs to the
>>> Apple database as soon as they see that Access Point broadcasting
>>> anything, regardless of whether they have seen an SSID from it.
>>> 
>>> If it works the way I am suggesting, then it means that Google's
>>> database would automatically exclude "hidden" networks, and Apple's
>>> wouldn't - and not only that, Apple would have no way of immediately
>>> excluding them. They would need to issue updated iPhone software,
>>> and then wait until almost all iPhones in the world that were still
>>> in use were using the new software.
>>> 
>>>>>> Related: What did Arlen (aka Maria) achieve? That Apple agreed to
>>>>>> remove all hidden and _nomap entries, or that they removed only his
>>>>>> entry?
>>>>> 
>>>>> My impression is that as a result of Maria's communications with them,
>>>>> Apple updated their documentation to note that "hidden" networks are
>>>>> still listed in their database, and removed Maria's own BSSID(s) from
>>>>> the database.
>>>> 
>>>> That's purely a correlation. It could be a coincidence.  And is there
>>>> any evidence that the documentation did change? We only have his say so.
>>> 
>>> We can't prove what prompted Apple to change their documentation, but
>>> we certainly can prove that it did indeed change, using archive.org.
>>> In December 2025 the page did not mention hidden networks, and today
>>> it does.
>>> 
>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20251221213139/https://support.apple.com/en-ie/102515
>>> https://support.apple.com/en-ie/102515
>> 
>> I agree. And I did the same. The fact that Arlen couldn't very easily
>> evidence his assertion, despite my challenge above, speaks volumes.
>> 
> Why do you call him/her Arlen if his/her preferred name is Maria? Are 
> you from the 70s?

Because he - and it is a he - used to very regularly change his nym. For a
long period the nyms were always a variation on Arlen, so it stuck. This
year he had an epiphany and realised that nymshifting was unnecessary for
more than a year. Weird, I know, but that's where we are with him. It is
unknown why he chose to change gender this year where all previous names
were male. 

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#155701

(Snipping for brevity for inline replies, sorry that this removes the
context, but in this case it probably is preferrable, please refer to
the parent post for the full context:)

(And thanks for the post, Jon, it does indeed make things clearer to
understand at least for me.)

On 2026-09-06, Jon Ribbens wrote:

> The purpose of these databases of BSSID locations is to assist devices
> such as mobile phones in locating themselves. Maybe the device is
> indoors and cannot get a GPS signal, but also my understanding is that
> GPS can fix an accurate location much faster if it starts already
> knowing vaguely where on the planet it is.

There was already a mechanism to do this at least since "3G" using
mobile data connections, right?

> 2. Apple's API is trivial to abuse.
>    (My opinion: high priority.)

(I think this is one of the aspects that was made only implicit in most
of the thread, and it would have helped if it was made more explicit...)

[...]
> My opinion: the lack of restrictions on the Apple API is unacceptable,
> and if Apple are unwilling to do something about it then governments
> should pass laws (or enforce existing laws) to make them to do so.

I'm leaning towards existing laws being more than sufficient, in
developed countries.

> My opinion: it would be difficult for Apple to rapidly switch completely
> to using an API more similar to Google's API, since this would remove
> functionality from devices running old software. However they could
> certainly aim to do this eventually, and there are steps they could take
> immediately to improve the situation (e.g. rate limiting, and not
> providing so many additional answers when asked about an individual
> BSSID). I cannot see any obvious reason why they couldn't make
> significant improvements almost immediately.

Not to mention Apple is not necessarily known for allowing older systems
to remain in use, so it'd be curious if they chose precisely a situation
like this to behave differently.

-- 
Nuno Silva

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#155707

On 2026-09-07 11:47, Nuno Silva wrote:
> (Snipping for brevity for inline replies, sorry that this removes the
> context, but in this case it probably is preferrable, please refer to
> the parent post for the full context:)
> 
> (And thanks for the post, Jon, it does indeed make things clearer to
> understand at least for me.)
> 
> On 2026-09-06, Jon Ribbens wrote:
> 
>> The purpose of these databases of BSSID locations is to assist devices
>> such as mobile phones in locating themselves. Maybe the device is
>> indoors and cannot get a GPS signal, but also my understanding is that
>> GPS can fix an accurate location much faster if it starts already
>> knowing vaguely where on the planet it is.
> 
> There was already a mechanism to do this at least since "3G" using
> mobile data connections, right?

Yes. It was possible since GSM was invented, but somebody had to figure 
out that, and design a methodology. Initially, it involved a written 
request to the mobile network provider to do calculations using dumps of 
logs from each tower that could be involved.

And at some time it was automated, and phones could find their rough 
location instantly.



>> 2. Apple's API is trivial to abuse.
>>     (My opinion: high priority.)
> 
> (I think this is one of the aspects that was made only implicit in most
> of the thread, and it would have helped if it was made more explicit...)
> 
> [...]
>> My opinion: the lack of restrictions on the Apple API is unacceptable,
>> and if Apple are unwilling to do something about it then governments
>> should pass laws (or enforce existing laws) to make them to do so.
> 
> I'm leaning towards existing laws being more than sufficient, in
> developed countries.
> 
>> My opinion: it would be difficult for Apple to rapidly switch completely
>> to using an API more similar to Google's API, since this would remove
>> functionality from devices running old software. However they could
>> certainly aim to do this eventually, and there are steps they could take
>> immediately to improve the situation (e.g. rate limiting, and not
>> providing so many additional answers when asked about an individual
>> BSSID). I cannot see any obvious reason why they couldn't make
>> significant improvements almost immediately.
> 
> Not to mention Apple is not necessarily known for allowing older systems
> to remain in use, so it'd be curious if they chose precisely a situation
> like this to behave differently.

Oh, they have to support their existing supported hardware at least, and 
phase them out slowly. Years.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#155717

On 2026-09-07 13:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2026-09-07 11:47, Nuno Silva wrote:
>> (Snipping for brevity for inline replies, sorry that this removes the
>> context, but in this case it probably is preferrable, please refer to
>> the parent post for the full context:)
>>
>> (And thanks for the post, Jon, it does indeed make things clearer to
>> understand at least for me.)
>>
>> On 2026-09-06, Jon Ribbens wrote:
>>
>>> The purpose of these databases of BSSID locations is to assist devices
>>> such as mobile phones in locating themselves. Maybe the device is
>>> indoors and cannot get a GPS signal, but also my understanding is that
>>> GPS can fix an accurate location much faster if it starts already
>>> knowing vaguely where on the planet it is.
>>
>> There was already a mechanism to do this at least since "3G" using
>> mobile data connections, right?
> 
> Yes. It was possible since GSM was invented, but somebody had to figure 
> out that, and design a methodology. Initially, it involved a written 
> request to the mobile network provider to do calculations using dumps of 
> logs from each tower that could be involved.
> 
> And at some time it was automated, and phones could find their rough 
> location instantly.

I asked ChatGPT for more info. Take with a pinch of salt.

Q: How was it found that the location of a mobile phone (GSM) could be 
calculated from the data logged by nearby towers? I think it was a 
doctorate paper?

A: Yes — and I think I know what phenomenon you’re remembering. It 
wasn’t a single discovery in one doctoral thesis, but there were 
important early academic/industry papers and theses showing that GSM 
network measurements could be turned into a geographical position.

The key insight is surprisingly simple: a GSM phone is constantly 
measuring the surrounding base stations, not just the tower it is 
currently connected to.
What information is available?

A GSM handset/network can provide things such as:

     Cell ID — which base station/cell the phone is using.
     RSSI / received signal strength — how strongly it receives 
neighbouring cells.
     Timing Advance (TA) — effectively an estimate of how far the phone 
is from its serving base station, in discrete distance steps.
     Measurements from several neighbouring base stations.

If you know where the base stations are, these measurements constrain 
where the phone can be.

For example, if tower A gives a Timing Advance corresponding roughly to 
2 km:

                          Phone
                            *
                           / \
                          /   \
                         /     \
                        /       \
                       /  ~2 km  \
                      /           \
                     O             \
                 Tower A            \

The phone should lie somewhere around a circle of roughly 2 km radius.

With another tower:

                    O Tower B
                   / \
                  /   \
                 /     \
                /       \
               /    *    \       ← possible position
              /           \
             /             \
            O---------------

          Tower A

And with three or more measurements, you can narrow it down considerably.
But there's an even more interesting version

You don't necessarily need an explicit distance measurement.

The phone reports the signal strengths of surrounding cells. Because 
radio signals generally get weaker with distance, you can construct an 
approximate relationship like:

     signal strength → estimated distance → geographical position

This is called RSS-based positioning, and with three or more stations it 
can resemble trilateration.

However, radio propagation is messy — buildings, reflections, terrain, 
antenna patterns, etc. mean that RSS isn't a reliable direct distance 
measurement. That's why another approach became very important: 
fingerprinting.

You can drive around an area recording:

Location       Cell A   Cell B   Cell C   Cell D
--------------------------------------------------
40.123, -3.21   -55      -72      -81      -90
40.124, -3.21   -58      -69      -79      -88
40.125, -3.21   -63      -65      -76      -91
...

Then, when an unknown phone produces:

Cell A = -60
Cell B = -67
Cell C = -77
Cell D = -89

you look for the place in the database whose "radio signature" most 
closely matches it.

That's GSM fingerprinting, and it's actually a very powerful idea.
And your memory of a doctorate/thesis is plausible

There are quite a few doctoral works in this area.

One particularly relevant early work is Christopher Drane, Malcolm 
Macnaughtan and Craig Scott, “Positioning GSM Telephones,” published in 
IEEE Communications Magazine in 1998. Interestingly, the authors say 
they had achieved accurate position measurements using GSM as early as 
May 1996.

There is also Jian Zhu's 2006 Georgia Tech PhD dissertation, 
Indoor/Outdoor Location of Cellular Handsets Based on Received Signal 
Strength, specifically investigating handset positioning from the 
received signal strengths of surrounding base stations.

And a later PhD dissertation, Zaenab Shakir (Florida Institute of 
Technology, 2020), deals explicitly with geolocation from signal level 
measurements and Timing Advance inside the cellular network.

There is also a particularly interesting doctoral thesis by Lauri Wirola 
on the evolution of cellular positioning standards, covering methods 
based on cell coverage combined with time delay, time difference and 
received signal strength.
One subtle point

If what you remember is specifically "someone discovered that you could 
reconstruct the location of a phone from the logs of the towers, without 
GPS", then I suspect you're remembering something slightly different 
from ordinary GSM triangulation.

There are techniques where the network's existing logs/measurements — 
serving cell, neighbouring-cell measurements, Timing Advance, handovers, 
etc. — can be accumulated over time and used to infer a person's 
route/location.

That gets particularly interesting because you don't need to know the 
phone's GPS position at all. The cellular network itself becomes a kind 
of enormous, distributed positioning system.

If you tell me roughly when you encountered the paper (1990s / 2000s / 
2010s) or whether it was about GSM specifically, mobile-phone 
surveillance, or anonymised phone records, I can try to track down the 
exact PhD paper you're remembering.


Sources:

     PPubMed Central (PMC)
     A Modular Localization System as a Positioning Service for Road 
Transport - PMC
     CCiteSeerX
     Positioning GSM Telephones
     GGeorgia Tech Repository
     Indoor/Outdoor Location of Cellular Handsets Based on Received 
Signal Strength
     SScholarship Repository
     "Geolocation Based on Signal Level Measurement and Time Advance 
Inside " by Zaenab Shakir
     TTampere University Research Portal
     Studies on location technology standards evolution in wireless 
networks - Tampere University Research Portal

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#155722

On 2026-09-07, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> On 2026-09-07 13:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2026-09-07 11:47, Nuno Silva wrote:
>>> On 2026-09-06, Jon Ribbens wrote:
>>>
>>>> The purpose of these databases of BSSID locations is to assist devices
>>>> such as mobile phones in locating themselves. Maybe the device is
>>>> indoors and cannot get a GPS signal, but also my understanding is that
>>>> GPS can fix an accurate location much faster if it starts already
>>>> knowing vaguely where on the planet it is.
>>>
>>> There was already a mechanism to do this at least since "3G" using
>>> mobile data connections, right?
>>
>> Yes. It was possible since GSM was invented, but somebody had to
>> figure out that, and design a methodology. Initially, it involved a
>> written request to the mobile network provider to do calculations
>> using dumps of logs from each tower that could be involved.
>>
>> And at some time it was automated, and phones could find their rough
>> location instantly.
>
> I asked ChatGPT for more info. Take with a pinch of salt.

(What you included is interesting too, but to be clear what I was
referring to is the "supl" APN type, which AFAIK is intended to be used
for positioning information? But it's not something I've researched at
all, the extent of my knowledge was searching to try to understand the
values in that comma-separated list many years ago.)

-- 
Nuno Silva

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