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Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet

From Winston <wbe@UBEBLOCK.psr.com.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.mobile.android, alt.internet.wireless, alt.os.linux
Subject Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet
Date 2016-09-15 01:04 -0400
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <yd7fadg3dt.fsf@UBEblock.psr.com> (permalink)
References <nr84lg$1sfk$1@gioia.aioe.org> <nra5cr$fu0$1@dont-email.me> <nrakc5$q9b$1@news.mixmin.net>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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I assume you're referring to things like:

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/11/where-have-you-been-your-smartphones-wi-fi-is-telling-everyone/

http://www.zdnet.com/article/how-google-and-everyone-else-gets-wi-fi-location-data/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/22/google_android_privacy_concerns/

and the like.  (I Googled for "Android, cellphone, collecting router
SSID, location, privacy" and got those and many other articles.)

There's two broad categories: whether there are risks to the person
carrying the cellphone and whether there are risks to the people around
them operating a wireless router.

It looks to me like you are NOT talking about risks to the wireless
router owners.  You're asking about locating a cellphone owner, so I'll
focus on that.

There were several ideas floating around a few years ago, as I recall.

* In NYC skyscrapers and the like, there are situations where knowing
  more than just the street address might be useful.  If the building
  has wireless routers, and if their locations are known, then it
  becomes possible to estimate which floor one is on from which router
  signals one hears and how strongly.

* IIRC (and I might not be), there was talk of whether it would be
  practical to gradually replace expensive cellphone towers with large
  numbers of cheap WiFi access points for cellphones (femto access
  points, I think I've heard them called).  Doing so would also help
  pinpoint the cellphone's location more accurately than is possible
  with the big cellphone towers, since the range of any particular
  femto-cell would be small.  Cellphones able to switch between
  cellphone mode and WiFi mode on the fly, or even just use WiFi for
  data, might also reduce TelCo-metered usage.

You speak about getting a location via Google even though you enter a
fake signal strength.  I don't see how that can work.  If you say a
signal is really strong, that indicates you're close.  If you say the
signal is weak, you're further away.  Choose any combination of places
around the world and make up whatever signal strengths you like, and you
probably can get a result anywhere on Earth, even if those numbers are
impossible in practice.

If I have a wireless router in Google's database, and you submit
something that says you hear my router (at all), I would think it'll say
you're somewhere near me, even if you aren't.  As you enter more
numbers, you can triangulate a position, but if you're making up
numbers, the answers wouldn't be meaningful.


A few specific points:

Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> writes:
> "if" your cellphone does broadcast an
> SSID, then your cellphone *can* be tracked.

(B)SSID aside, all cellphones are tracked to the level of "nearest
cellphone tower" whenever they're on.  If they're within range of more
than one tower, the range of possible locations is greatly reduced.

> However, even if the router's MAC address could be cloned (it can't,
> at least not without desoldering and other heroic actions),

Huh?  The wireless routers I've configured allow changing of their MAC
addresses, often during the initial setup/configuration.  (See DD-WRT,
ifconfig options wlanbssid #id and wlanaddr #addr (the latter sets the
WLAN local MAC address).  Regarding some other options, 'man ifconfig'
says "Note that this feature does not significantly enhance security as
MAC address spoofing is easy to do.")

There once was a company that manufactured Ethernet devices that all had
the same MAC address.  When customers discovered that, they got upset.
The manufacturer changed to providing unique addresses (I think).  While
customers could change the MAC address, they didn't have enough
information to ensure the address they chose was unique, as the
manufacturers do.

OTOH, if you meant cellphone instead of router, I'd mostly agree:
cellphone handsets are intended to have unique IDs.  However, I'm not
sure whether that's the same as the MAC address the cellphone would use
to connect to a WiFi hotspot (but maybe it is).

Whether it's changeable or not doesn't really matter: once a router has
been configured, its MAC addresses are rarely changed (short of
replacing the router), so once SSID X has been heard transmitting at
location Y, the X,Y pair should be valid for some time.  [I can also
think of ways to handle the case of duplicate MAC addresses (except when
the duplicates are operating so close to each other that one can be in
both of their signal areas at the same time).]

Fortunately, they're irrelevant to the question of whether Google's
database can be used by someone remotely to locate a cellphone user in
the absence of actual signal information.  I don't see an obvious way to
do that.  There's also the method of accessing the cellphone's own
recorded location history file (see articles), but that doesn't involve
Google.

Have I completely missed the point?
 -WBE

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Thread

How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-13 06:00 +0000
  Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-13 15:34 +0200
    Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-13 16:06 +0000
      Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-14 00:20 +0200
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-14 04:41 +0000
      Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-09-14 00:27 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-14 04:41 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2016-09-14 07:35 +0100
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2016-09-14 07:54 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-09-15 11:53 +0100
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet pamela <invalid@nospam.com> - 2016-09-17 14:28 +0100
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-09-17 21:30 +0100
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-15 08:45 -0700
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-15 08:51 -0700
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 19:30 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 18:43 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2016-09-16 20:08 +0100
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2016-09-17 09:17 +0100
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2016-09-17 17:27 +0000
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 02:12 +0000
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2016-09-19 15:42 +0000
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-19 16:33 +0000
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2016-09-19 17:42 +0000
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2016-09-19 18:41 +0100
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-20 03:21 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-16 13:04 -0700
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 20:23 +0000
      Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-15 08:31 -0700
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet AL <noemail@none.invalid.com> - 2016-09-15 09:49 -0700
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 19:33 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@invalid.es> - 2016-09-19 19:22 +0200
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 19:30 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-16 13:16 -0700
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 04:52 +0000
  Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2016-09-14 00:24 +0000
    Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-14 04:40 +0000
      Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet bruce <bruce@invalid.dyndns.tv.invalid> - 2016-09-14 18:41 -0400
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 19:56 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet bruce <bruce@invalid.dyndns.tv.invalid> - 2016-09-17 16:12 -0400
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Winston <wbe@UBEBLOCK.psr.com.invalid> - 2016-09-17 19:04 -0400
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 03:43 +0000
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 02:30 +0000
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-17 22:54 -0400
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 03:43 +0000
      Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Winston <wbe@UBEBLOCK.psr.com.invalid> - 2016-09-15 01:04 -0400
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 23:17 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-16 23:36 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 01:59 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 01:59 +0000
          Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2016-09-16 22:22 -0700
            Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 06:17 +0000
              Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 06:32 +0000
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2016-09-17 10:08 -0400
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2016-09-17 16:13 +0200
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 03:43 +0000
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 03:49 +0000
                Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-18 04:00 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 01:59 +0000
        Re: How to look up the GPS location of your MAC address or car on the Internet Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net> - 2016-09-17 02:00 +0000

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