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Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user.

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  Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-14 11:42 +1100
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 19:30 -0600
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-14 01:39 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user.     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2016-01-13 18:06 -0800
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 21:30 -0600
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:26 +0000
              Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:42 +0000
                Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 10:33 +0100
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> - 2016-01-14 19:32 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-14 14:51 -0500
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-01-15 01:42 -0400
              Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-15 13:08 +0000
                Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-01-15 15:47 -0400
                  Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-15 19:57 +0000
                    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-15 15:36 -0500
                  Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 10:43 +0100
                    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2016-01-29 17:08 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-17 16:21 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:26 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:44 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2016-01-15 14:25 +0200
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-17 16:09 +0100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:25 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-17 16:04 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-17 16:07 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 10:51 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-18 11:59 +1100
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 22:55 -0500
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-18 08:55 +0000
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-18 23:25 +1100
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 11:09 +0100
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-14 02:36 +0000
    Re:Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2016-01-14 09:20 +0400
      Re: Re:Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-14 11:11 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-14 12:58 +0100
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:19 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:31 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 11:50 +0100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 11:24 +0100
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-01-14 08:38 +0200
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-14 18:12 +1100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-24 10:45 +0100
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-24 22:47 +1100
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-01-24 14:07 +0200
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-18 00:15 +0100
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:18 +0000
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2016-01-15 14:16 +0200
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-15 12:17 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 18:56 -0600
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 23:53 -0600
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-16 17:16 +1100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-16 18:03 -0500
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Batchman <batchman@fastmail.fm> - 2016-01-16 11:01 +1100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-15 23:38 -0500
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 23:51 -0600
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-16 10:40 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-16 17:59 -0500
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-22 19:23 +1100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-22 10:53 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-22 17:23 +0000
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-22 13:12 +0100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. polygonum <rmoudndgers@vrod.co.uk> - 2016-01-22 18:38 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. "G. Paul Ziemba" <unp@ziemba.us> - 2016-01-24 18:14 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-24 16:31 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-24 19:52 +0100
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-24 22:07 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-24 21:36 -0500
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-29 15:29 +1100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-29 16:38 +1100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> - 2016-01-29 10:19 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 11:57 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-29 11:00 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-29 13:22 -0500
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-29 19:49 +0000
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-29 23:30 -0500
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-29 22:36 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-30 12:25 +1100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-29 23:33 -0500
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-02-03 19:02 +1100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-02-03 11:45 +0100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-02-03 11:30 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-02-03 23:18 +1100
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-02-03 12:55 +0000
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-12-02 11:23 +1100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-12-02 01:37 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-12-02 13:12 +1100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2017-12-02 09:39 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-12-02 18:02 +0000
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2017-12-02 12:44 -0800
              Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2017-12-03 09:31 +0000
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2017-12-03 09:43 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> - 2017-12-02 15:31 +0200
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-12-14 12:50 +1100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-12-14 02:06 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-12-21 13:52 +1100

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#10001

Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> writes:

> Demand that (say) a credit card number be inserted without spaces, but 
> nowhere actually mention that fact. Then reject it if spaces are 
> included, saying "re-enter without spaces" instead of just fixing it. 
> Dates and telephone numbers ditto.

I just ran into a similar failure to handle white space: I registered to
something or other recently but the form came back with "please input
valid email address". I was actually using my phone and it helpfully
auto-completed my email and added a space... And the genius web designer
had apparently decided a valid email address doesn't end in a
space. Gah.

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#10041

On 2016-01-14, Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 19:30:52 -0600, Larry Sheldon wrote:
>
>> On 1/13/2016 18:42, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> We should probably limit it to things people have actually seen.
>>>
>>> 1. Limits that are not stated up front.
>>>
>>> 2. If the user tries to submit a form with invalid data, clear the
>>> form,
>>> and make the user fill it all in again.
>>>
>>> 3. Have an on-line support chat page that offers the option to
>>> print-out the chat so far, but when the chat ends, go immediately to
>>> another page,
>>> without letting the user print out the whole thing.
>>>
>>> (I got that just the other day, and the page I got sent too was a
>>> feedback page so that I could rate the experience I'd just had).
>> 
>> Your second is my first, followed closely by:
>> 
>> Demanding that my address be entered in some sequence that differs
>> markedly from ordinary (and Post Office mandated) and having demanded
>> ZIP code before "City" or "State" or both does not populate the
>> following blocks.  (Extra points for using it to whine about typos.)
>> 
>> Demanding "so we can call you if necessary" my telephone number which is
>> in my "profile" AND has not changed in 25 years AND requiring that it be
>> entered in a format markedly different from that mandated by ordinary
>> practice and the directions of the originator of the North American
>> Numbering Plan Area system.
>
> Demand that (say) a credit card number be inserted without spaces, but 
> nowhere actually mention that fact. Then reject it if spaces are 
> included, saying "re-enter without spaces" instead of just fixing it. 
> Dates and telephone numbers ditto.

But in the case of credit card numbers, first complain that it's too
long and chop off the digits which exceed the expected no-space length.
Do not ön any account tell the user at this stage that the real reason
is embedded spaces - let them figure that out for themselves,

-- 
An invention needs to make sense in the world in which it's finished,
not the world in which it's started.                  -- Ray Kurzweil

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#9989

On 2016-01-14, Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> wrote:

[16 lines snipped]

> Demanding that my address be entered in some sequence that differs 
> markedly from ordinary (and Post Office mandated) and having demanded 
> ZIP code before "City" or "State" or both does not populate the 
> following blocks.  (Extra points for using it to whine about typos.)

Not allowing addresses and telephone numbers from other countries (this
has only bitten me when trying to order stuff from the USA - I'm in the
UK). Allowing you to enter everything in an international address, but
providing a "State" pulldown that has no "none" or "Not applicable" entry.
Or refuses to accept that one does not have a ZIP code. Or that not all
telephone numbers are NNN-NNN-NNNN.

And not allowing you to access the web site at all from overseas - Yes,
eBay.com, I'm talking about you. Anyone would think that the Internet only
existed in the USA. Grrrr.

https://www.mjt.me.uk/posts/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-addresses/


-- 
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 14th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3182
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#10040

On 2016-01-14, Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/13/2016 18:42, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> We should probably limit it to things people have actually seen.
>>
>> 1. Limits that are not stated up front.
>>
>> 2. If the user tries to submit a form with invalid data, clear the form,
>> and make the user fill it all in again.
>>
>> 3. Have an on-line support chat page that offers the option to print-out
>> the chat so far, but when the chat ends, go immediately to another page,
>> without letting the user print out the whole thing.
>>
>> (I got that just the other day, and the page I got sent too was a
>> feedback page so that I could rate the experience I'd just had).
>
> Your second is my first, followed closely by:
>
> Demanding that my address be entered in some sequence that differs 
> markedly from ordinary (and Post Office mandated) and having demanded 
> ZIP code before "City" or "State" or both does not populate the 
> following blocks.  (Extra points for using it to whine about typos.)

Also house numbers in addresses.  Just the other day I received a change
of address for someone in the UK.  There is a house name rather than a
street number, and no street name:

    House Name
    Village
    Nearest Town
    Postcode

and that is a perfectly valid postal address in the UK, and is a
reasonably common format in rural areas.

> Demanding "so we can call you if necessary" my telephone number which is 
> in my "profile" AND has not changed in 25 years AND requiring that it be 
> entered in a format markedly different from that mandated by ordinary 
> practice and the directions of the originator of the North American 
> Numbering Plan Area system.

A sig I devised just a few months ago after experiencing frustration
with this bad habit:

"Mobile phones now have more processing power than the first computers I
worked on.  Yet they still cannot store phone numbers using spaces, as
used for phone books, letter heads or business cards. Why not?"

Another pet grouse is those sites who say "Contact us for pricing". No I
don't want a pushy salesman phoning me, I have just come across your
product, have yet to work out what it does do and what it doesn't do and
am only interested in a ball park figure at this stage.

On that subject here's another example from my sig file.  If you
follow the URL, you will find prices :-) (though IIRC NoScript users
will have to enable one or more domains to see them).

If SpaceX can publish their pricing for going to space, your little SaaS
does NOT need "Contact us for pricing"                    -- @DanHarper7
http://www.spacex.com/about/capabilities



-- 
An invention needs to make sense in the world in which it's finished,
not the world in which it's started.                  -- Ray Kurzweil

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#10045

On 2016-01-17, Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
> On 2016-01-14, Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 1/13/2016 18:42, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> We should probably limit it to things people have actually seen.
>>>
>>> 1. Limits that are not stated up front.
>>>
>>> 2. If the user tries to submit a form with invalid data, clear the form,
>>> and make the user fill it all in again.
>>>
>>> 3. Have an on-line support chat page that offers the option to print-out
>>> the chat so far, but when the chat ends, go immediately to another page,
>>> without letting the user print out the whole thing.
>>>
>>> (I got that just the other day, and the page I got sent too was a
>>> feedback page so that I could rate the experience I'd just had).
>>
>> Your second is my first, followed closely by:
>>
>> Demanding that my address be entered in some sequence that differs 
>> markedly from ordinary (and Post Office mandated) and having demanded 
>> ZIP code before "City" or "State" or both does not populate the 
>> following blocks.  (Extra points for using it to whine about typos.)
>
> Also house numbers in addresses.  Just the other day I received a change
> of address for someone in the UK.  There is a house name rather than a
> street number, and no street name:
>
>     House Name
>     Village
>     Nearest Town
>     Postcode

My house has a name and no street number. The street name is unknown
to the authorities. Mail still arrives.

My Brother-In-Law until recently lived at;

{$BROTHERINLAW}
The Hill
Abbyfeile
Eire

They don't have postcodes in Ireland. He has no street address - there
are about 200 houses on "The Hill". The Postie just knows. Delivery
people stop in the village and call for directions.

> and that is a perfectly valid postal address in the UK, and is a
> reasonably common format in rural areas.

Yep.

[9 lines snipped]

> "Mobile phones now have more processing power than the first computers I
> worked on.  Yet they still cannot store phone numbers using spaces, as
> used for phone books, letter heads or business cards. Why not?"

My Blackberry Z10 can.

> Another pet grouse is those sites who say "Contact us for pricing". No I
> don't want a pushy salesman phoning me, I have just come across your
> product, have yet to work out what it does do and what it doesn't do and
> am only interested in a ball park figure at this stage.

Damn right.

> On that subject here's another example from my sig file.  If you
> follow the URL, you will find prices :-) (though IIRC NoScript users
> will have to enable one or more domains to see them).
>
> If SpaceX can publish their pricing for going to space, your little SaaS
> does NOT need "Contact us for pricing"                    -- @DanHarper7
> http://www.spacex.com/about/capabilities

*applause*


-- 
Today is Boomtime, the 17th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3182
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#10186

On 2016-01-17, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2016-01-17, Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
>> "Mobile phones now have more processing power than the first computers I
>> worked on.  Yet they still cannot store phone numbers using spaces, as
>> used for phone books, letter heads or business cards. Why not?"
>
> My Blackberry Z10 can.

As can my Blackberry Passport :-)

One comment about that piece of kit though.  It may be my fault for
doing things out of order, but I found myself in the position where it
was asking for my lengthy and complex wifi password *before* doing the
keyboard tutorial.  Let's just say that changing the wifi password to
something shorter and simpler was the workaround :-)


-- 
An invention needs to make sense in the world in which it's finished,
not the world in which it's started.                  -- Ray Kurzweil

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#10051

On 18/01/2016 2:04 AM, Paul Sture wrote:

> Another pet grouse is those sites who say "Contact us for pricing". No I
> don't want a pushy salesman phoning me, I have just come across your
> product, have yet to work out what it does do and what it doesn't do and
> am only interested in a ball park figure at this stage.

Companies that don't give prices only very rarely get my business, and 
only then if my on-line research has failed to reveal another supplier 
(who gives prices) and I really need the thing/service in question.

I'd be surprised if I were unusual in that respect.

I can't help feeling that not giving prices is just not good business.

Sylvia.

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#10052

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016, Sylvia Else wrote:

> On 18/01/2016 2:04 AM, Paul Sture wrote:
>
>> Another pet grouse is those sites who say "Contact us for pricing". No I
>> don't want a pushy salesman phoning me, I have just come across your
>> product, have yet to work out what it does do and what it doesn't do and
>> am only interested in a ball park figure at this stage.
>
> Companies that don't give prices only very rarely get my business, and only 
> then if my on-line research has failed to reveal another supplier (who gives 
> prices) and I really need the thing/service in question.
>
> I'd be surprised if I were unusual in that respect.
>
> I can't help feeling that not giving prices is just not good business.
>
But I don't think they want your business.

They aren't selling in small quantities, and the pricing depends on 
quantity, and they want the option to give discount here and there based 
on quantity and potential future sales.  If they gave prices, then it 
would be out in the open.

What they should be doing is stating explicitly that they aren't selling 
to end users.  Otherwise, it  just looks like they are doing things wrong. 
I remember once writing some company that made crystal filters for radios. 
I wanted general pricing, to see if there was any value in pursuing their 
products, but they just wrote back "we don't give out pricing" or 
whatever, and sent the catalog.  INteresting stuff, but a big difference 
if they were $20 or $200.

But that sort of thing can be that wide a price differential, inside a 
piece of eqquipment it has to be really low priced since the cost of the 
whole equipment is so low, but bought as a replacement part, it can cost a 
significant percentage of the full price of the equipment.

   Michael

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#10057

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 11:59:04 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

> On 18/01/2016 2:04 AM, Paul Sture wrote:
> 
>> Another pet grouse is those sites who say "Contact us for pricing". No
>> I don't want a pushy salesman phoning me, I have just come across your
>> product, have yet to work out what it does do and what it doesn't do
>> and am only interested in a ball park figure at this stage.
> 
> Companies that don't give prices only very rarely get my business, and
> only then if my on-line research has failed to reveal another supplier
> (who gives prices) and I really need the thing/service in question.
> 
> I'd be surprised if I were unusual in that respect.
> 
> I can't help feeling that not giving prices is just not good business.

It may be that you are (to them) an insignificant customer. Or they want 
to check you out to see what price they can get away with.


-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#10059

On 18/01/2016 7:55 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 11:59:04 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:
>
>> On 18/01/2016 2:04 AM, Paul Sture wrote:
>>
>>> Another pet grouse is those sites who say "Contact us for pricing". No
>>> I don't want a pushy salesman phoning me, I have just come across your
>>> product, have yet to work out what it does do and what it doesn't do
>>> and am only interested in a ball park figure at this stage.
>>
>> Companies that don't give prices only very rarely get my business, and
>> only then if my on-line research has failed to reveal another supplier
>> (who gives prices) and I really need the thing/service in question.
>>
>> I'd be surprised if I were unusual in that respect.
>>
>> I can't help feeling that not giving prices is just not good business.
>
> It may be that you are (to them) an insignificant customer. Or they want
> to check you out to see what price they can get away with.
>
>

Another good reason for me not to want to do business with them.

Sylvia.

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#10188

On 2016-01-18, Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 11:59:04 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:
>
>> On 18/01/2016 2:04 AM, Paul Sture wrote:
>> 
>>> Another pet grouse is those sites who say "Contact us for pricing". No
>>> I don't want a pushy salesman phoning me, I have just come across your
>>> product, have yet to work out what it does do and what it doesn't do
>>> and am only interested in a ball park figure at this stage.
>> 
>> Companies that don't give prices only very rarely get my business, and
>> only then if my on-line research has failed to reveal another supplier
>> (who gives prices) and I really need the thing/service in question.
>> 
>> I'd be surprised if I were unusual in that respect.
>> 
>> I can't help feeling that not giving prices is just not good business.
>
> It may be that you are (to them) an insignificant customer. Or they want 
> to check you out to see what price they can get away with.

But this can work against them in various ways.  When working at a Swiss
bank I once filled out a form to get access to a product's documentation
(itself a result of the product descriptions being marketing fluff
rather than serious content).  That resulted in the European sales
director suggesting he jumped on the next plane to give our directors a
presentation (as if I was far enough up the food chain to tell them
what to do).

That was unacceptably pushy and I was determined not to do business with
him.  It turned out a few years later that it was a decent product that
I could have used elsewhere...


-- 
An invention needs to make sense in the world in which it's finished,
not the world in which it's started.                  -- Ray Kurzweil

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#9977

Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
> We should probably limit it to things people have actually seen.

> 1. Limits that are not stated up front.

> 2. If the user tries to submit a form with invalid data, clear the form, 
> and make the user fill it all in again.

> 3. Have an on-line support chat page that offers the option to print-out 
> the chat so far, but when the chat ends, go immediately to another page, 
> without letting the user print out the whole thing.

4. Credit card forms that do not allow the spaces in the number on the
physical card to be typed into the form.  There are actually three
sub-variants to this one:

  4a. Can't type the spaces at all (space bar non-functional).
  4b. Can type them, but then the overall field is length limited so
      that the last three characters can't be typed in, forcing one to
      go back and remove the spaces.
  4c. Can type them, and there is enough length to type the whole
      number, but upon submit, an error message is returned indicating
      "please enter without spaces".

And 4c. is especially irksome because the code that the programmer had
to write to detect that spaces exist and display the error message is
99.9% identical to the code required to just remove the spaces before
submitting the number to the credit card handling company (which is how
the form should have been designed from the get-go).

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#9981

Completely ignore the fact you might have an American with an
 American credit card and mailing address living in Europe, or
 similar.  Upon finding an American bank card address, shuffle the
 customer to your American site, which does not deliver to Europe.
  (Amazon.com BTW and all I wanted to do was have Amazon.de
 deliver a gift to a German friend).

All phone number fields should be totally free form.   Too many
 nuances to list them all.

"Sorry. This content is not licensed for your geo IP address." 
 Die lawyer, die.

Bury the "contact us" stuff so deeply it scarcely exists.  All
 banks do this.

Call for customer service.  Input your card number. Say your
 secret word.  Type your personal ID number.  Then when a customer
 service rep answers you have to do it all again, as though all
 that typing were just to entertain you and the rep. never got
 access to any of the info you provided. 

I used one site whose passwords required one uppercase one number,
 no use of certain chars etc. But wouldn't  tell you what the
 criteria were until you'd already given it a try.
 

Modal pop-up Javascript windows that fill the screen in a way that
 blocks the site but doesn't allow you to pan on your cellphone,
 making the "close window" button permanently off screen.  I'm
 never coming back to your site, fucker. 

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#9985

RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> I used one site whose passwords required one uppercase one number, no
>  use of certain chars etc. But wouldn't tell you what the criteria
>  were until you'd already given it a try.

Encountered one last night where the "requirements" listed visibly on
the page were:

CaSe Sensitive: min 6 letters.

But in reality there were some additional requirements because multiple
different passwords with the form of:

 #&sjhSEfsd23
 sjCHIO532!@&sDF
 etc.

merely ilicited a "please comply with the requirements" 'thought
bubble' on the password field.

To which my general response was: "I would, if you'd @#$!#@$ tell me
what the actual requirements were."

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#9986

Op 14-01-16 om 12:11 schreef Rich:
> RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
>> I used one site whose passwords required one uppercase one number, no
>>   use of certain chars etc. But wouldn't tell you what the criteria
>>   were until you'd already given it a try.
>
> Encountered one last night where the "requirements" listed visibly on
> the page were:
>
> CaSe Sensitive: min 6 letters.
Letters, so no numbers or signs?
>
> But in reality there were some additional requirements because multiple
> different passwords with the form of:
>
>   #&sjhSEfsd23
>   sjCHIO532!@&sDF
>   etc.
>
> merely ilicited a "please comply with the requirements" 'thought
> bubble' on the password field.
>
> To which my general response was: "I would, if you'd @#$!#@$ tell me
> what the actual requirements were."
>

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#9988

Dirk T. Verbeek <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Op 14-01-16 om 12:11 schreef Rich:
> > RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> >> I used one site whose passwords required one uppercase one number, no
> >>   use of certain chars etc. But wouldn't tell you what the criteria
> >>   were until you'd already given it a try.
> >
> > Encountered one last night where the "requirements" listed visibly on
> > the page were:
> >
> > CaSe Sensitive: min 6 letters.
> Letters, so no numbers or signs?

No idea - that was the sum total of the 'feedback', and trying anything
resulted in a "please comply with the requirements" message - with no
link or explanation of the requirements.

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#9992

On 2016-01-14, RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> Completely ignore the fact you might have an American with an
>  American credit card and mailing address living in Europe, or
>  similar.

Ah, yes. You live outside the USA, don't you? Welcome to the
rest of the world! I get a lot of similar issues, since my parents
live in the USA and I don't.

>   (Amazon.com BTW and all I wanted to do was have Amazon.de
>  deliver a gift to a German friend).

I have accounts at both Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk. That's one of the
few that work correctly. ebay.com is a particular PITA, since it spots
you're not in the US and shunts you to ebay.co.uk, even though I have
a delivery address in the US and can pay by VISA or Paypal.

> All phone number fields should be totally free form.   Too many
>  nuances to list them all.

Tell me about it. I was trying to write a standard for validating phone
numbers at my PPOE. I gave up and said "defer to local standards".

-- 
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 14th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3182
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#10190

On 2016-01-14, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2016-01-14, RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
>> Completely ignore the fact you might have an American with an
>>  American credit card and mailing address living in Europe, or
>>  similar.
>
> Ah, yes. You live outside the USA, don't you? Welcome to the
> rest of the world! I get a lot of similar issues, since my parents
> live in the USA and I don't.

And living in a German speaking area, no I do not need the German
version of your site, nor your German-only speaking version of your
software.  German as a default is fine, but please don't force me
into it.

Google didn't get this at one point - I was trying to guide someone in
the UK through the Google support pages but all I could get was the
German version.  Google have addressed this to a certain extent, but
fail to recognise that sometimes I want other language versions - when
it's easy to nip across a border into France or Germany, it's really
handy to be able to search those versions of Google instead of my local
one.

On software downloads, Apple had multilingual capability sorted out back
in 2003.  If you haven't worked out how to do that yourself yet, please
bear in mind that:

1. You cannot determine my preferred language via GeoIP
2. You cannot determine my preferred language from my keyboard layout
3. You cannot determine my preferred language from the date format
   I use

IOW, *ask me* what language I want to use; also allow me to change it on
the fly.  Any decent Windows program which is available internationally
will usually have sussed this one out.

>>   (Amazon.com BTW and all I wanted to do was have Amazon.de
>>  deliver a gift to a German friend).
>
> I have accounts at both Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk. That's one of the
> few that work correctly. ebay.com is a particular PITA, since it spots
> you're not in the US and shunts you to ebay.co.uk, even though I have
> a delivery address in the US and can pay by VISA or Paypal.

I get shunted to Amozon Germany, who don't recognise my postal address.

>> All phone number fields should be totally free form.   Too many
>>  nuances to list them all.
>
> Tell me about it. I was trying to write a standard for validating phone
> numbers at my PPOE. I gave up and said "defer to local standards".

Applause.

-- 
An invention needs to make sense in the world in which it's finished,
not the world in which it's started.                  -- Ray Kurzweil

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#10189

On 2016-01-14, RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> Completely ignore the fact you might have an American with an
>  American credit card and mailing address living in Europe, or
>  similar.  Upon finding an American bank card address, shuffle the
>  customer to your American site, which does not deliver to Europe.
>   (Amazon.com BTW and all I wanted to do was have Amazon.de
>  deliver a gift to a German friend).
>
> All phone number fields should be totally free form.   Too many
>  nuances to list them all.
>
> "Sorry. This content is not licensed for your geo IP address." 
>  Die lawyer, die.

My first attempt at using the then-new iTunes Store.  Someone in the UK
recommended an album and supplied a URL.

The iTunes Store redirected me to the Swiss portal, where of course that
album was "Not available in your country".

I was still at the point where I preferred physical media to downloads
so it was a no-brainer to visit the local music shop which specialised
in imports.  I got what I wanted and have avoided the iTunes Store for
music ever since.
  
> Modal pop-up Javascript windows that fill the screen in a way that
>  blocks the site but doesn't allow you to pan on your cellphone,
>  making the "close window" button permanently off screen.  I'm
>  never coming back to your site, fucker. 

Things have got better since phones and tablets got web browsing
capability but at one point the only system I had capable of
supporting the latest versions of Javascript was 14" laptop. A
lot of web designers obviously thought everyone had access to the
same size screens as they had (think latest, greatest. most
expensive).  It really isn't too hard to have a few laptops
around for testing...

-- 
An invention needs to make sense in the world in which it's finished,
not the world in which it's started.                  -- Ray Kurzweil

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#9982

Have an easy way to subscribe to a paid service but make it virtually
impossible to find a way to unsubscribe or contact customer service.


Marko

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