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Groups > comp.misc > #3039 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Dale R Worley <worley@shell01.TheWorld.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2014-05-23 16:39 -0400 |
| Last post | 2014-05-26 17:54 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 240 — 49 participants |
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Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Dale R Worley <worley@shell01.TheWorld.com> - 2014-05-23 16:39 -0400
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2014-05-23 16:32 -0500
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-23 23:28 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-05-24 08:23 +0200
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-05-23 23:55 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2014-05-24 00:17 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2014-05-24 10:21 -0300
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2014-05-24 14:37 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 16:29 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-24 14:16 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2014-05-24 14:45 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-05-25 11:25 +0200
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-05-25 10:32 +0100
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-25 21:40 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 12:35 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-26 13:34 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 21:35 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-05-26 21:47 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-05-27 00:09 +0200
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-28 16:07 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2014-05-29 02:16 +0200
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-05-28 23:23 -0600
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-29 11:26 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-29 10:30 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-29 20:05 +0100
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-29 20:31 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-29 22:36 +0100
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-29 19:16 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-30 12:19 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 15:31 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-31 23:54 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 11:31 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-01 10:27 +0100
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-06-01 12:15 +0200
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 09:14 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 09:12 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-30 12:19 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-30 08:00 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2014-05-30 14:44 +0100
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 15:42 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2014-05-31 07:29 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 07:36 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2014-05-31 17:47 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 09:37 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-01 00:00 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 11:34 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-01 12:31 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2014-06-01 12:48 -0800
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 09:22 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-06-02 07:09 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2014-06-02 16:27 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2014-06-02 13:00 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2014-06-02 13:16 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-06-02 13:57 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> - 2014-08-29 13:38 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-29 22:14 +0300
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? greymaus <greymausg@mail.com> - 2014-08-29 20:55 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-08-30 01:21 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-31 23:54 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-01 09:23 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-06-01 09:44 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-31 23:54 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 11:21 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-06-01 09:59 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-06-02 07:03 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2014-06-04 09:33 -0800
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-06-01 09:35 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 09:31 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2014-06-01 21:59 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 16:46 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2014-05-31 07:26 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-31 12:48 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 07:44 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 07:32 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2014-06-01 12:18 -0800
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-29 18:59 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2014-05-30 07:28 +0100
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-30 09:26 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2014-05-30 15:24 -0800
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 17:40 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 16:24 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2014-05-30 15:57 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-30 16:14 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2014-05-31 12:46 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-05-31 21:41 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-06-01 12:31 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 09:19 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-06-02 07:06 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2014-05-29 21:46 +0200
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2014-05-29 21:31 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-29 20:49 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-05-30 02:00 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-30 11:42 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2014-05-30 06:32 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-30 16:22 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-30 22:43 +0100
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-05-30 08:06 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-30 12:29 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2014-05-30 13:23 +0100
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-30 09:44 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 15:52 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stan Barr <plan.b@dsl.pipex.com> - 2014-05-30 07:18 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 21:09 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2014-05-30 16:17 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-05-30 13:19 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-05-30 21:47 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-30 23:01 +0100
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-05-30 18:44 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-29 17:17 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-05-30 07:51 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-30 09:47 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-05-30 08:03 -0400
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-30 09:48 -0500
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 15:03 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2014-05-30 12:53 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 15:14 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2014-05-29 13:33 +0000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 14:40 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-05-26 20:38 -0600
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 13:32 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 05:58 +1000
Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2014-05-25 15:09 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-05-24 09:41 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "2ju" <2ju@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 20:37 +1000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-24 14:05 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-24 18:48 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-05-25 12:34 +0200
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-05-25 13:57 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-25 17:15 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-05-25 15:44 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Stan Barr <plan.b@dsl.pipex.com> - 2014-05-25 16:28 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "2ju" <2ju@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 06:39 +1000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-24 21:22 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "2ju" <2ju@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 08:19 +1000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-25 08:10 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "2ju" <2ju@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 20:44 +1000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-05-25 16:11 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "2ju" <2ju@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 04:16 +1000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-05-25 10:28 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2014-05-25 15:09 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Stan Barr <plan.b@dsl.pipex.com> - 2014-05-25 16:32 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-25 17:39 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2014-05-25 12:20 -0500
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-25 18:55 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-25 20:02 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2014-05-25 22:29 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2014-05-25 17:20 -0500
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-05-26 05:06 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-26 11:45 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-26 12:34 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Joe Makowiec <makowiec@invalid.invalid> - 2014-05-26 14:28 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-26 16:05 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-26 12:35 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-26 13:41 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-05-26 14:39 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-26 16:03 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-05-26 11:27 -0400
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-05-26 12:26 -0400
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-26 13:36 -0500
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-05-26 18:46 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-05-26 21:27 +0200
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-05-26 15:46 -0400
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2014-05-26 17:01 -0500
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-27 11:40 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-26 14:59 -0500
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-05-27 12:17 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn ERSHC <ershc123@invalid.invalid> - 2014-05-27 03:50 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2014-05-27 05:50 +1000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-05-26 12:54 -0400
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-05-26 17:49 +0000
Re: a long way from a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2014-05-26 17:55 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-26 19:48 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-05-26 18:59 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-05-27 09:03 -0400
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-27 16:01 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-27 16:03 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2014-05-27 16:55 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-27 17:47 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2014-05-27 21:34 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-27 21:20 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2014-05-27 20:16 -0500
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-28 11:22 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-28 13:27 +0300
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2014-05-29 15:20 -0500
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-30 11:39 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-30 12:19 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-05-30 07:43 -0400
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-30 13:19 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-30 12:29 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-30 16:57 +0300
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-05-27 17:28 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-27 17:48 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2014-05-27 18:12 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-05-27 17:05 -0400
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-28 00:12 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-05-28 08:08 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-05-28 11:01 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn cb@bobby.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2014-05-28 11:02 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-05-27 08:53 -0400
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Rob Brown <brown@greenslade.gmcl.internal> - 2014-05-27 21:05 +0000
Re: A long time before there was a revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2014-05-27 22:21 +0000
Re: A long time before there was a revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2014-05-28 14:38 -0500
Re: A long time before there was a revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Johny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2014-05-29 01:50 +0100
Re: A long time before there was a revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-29 07:34 +0100
Re: A long time before there was a revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Johny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2014-05-29 10:08 +0100
Re: A long time before there was a revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-29 10:15 +0100
Re: A long time before there was a revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-05-29 09:40 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-05-26 20:58 +0200
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> - 2014-05-27 09:35 -0400
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2014-05-26 20:58 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-26 21:16 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-05-26 20:22 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-27 11:33 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-05-27 10:49 -0400
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-05-26 23:46 +0200
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2014-05-27 06:39 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) - 2014-05-27 10:45 +0000
Re: components not found in a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2014-05-25 19:05 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-05-25 22:23 +0200
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Johny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2014-05-26 17:20 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2014-05-27 13:01 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Johny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2014-05-29 00:24 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2014-05-29 12:52 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-29 15:00 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2014-05-29 14:21 -0700
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2014-05-30 11:40 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2014-05-25 17:30 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "Stanley Daniel de Liver" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2014-05-25 20:38 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-24 16:29 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-05-24 14:28 -0500
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2014-05-26 07:54 -0800
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-05-24 22:37 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Stan Barr <plan.b@dsl.pipex.com> - 2014-05-25 07:16 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2014-05-25 10:26 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2014-05-24 07:28 -0400
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-05-25 16:08 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-05-25 19:33 +0000
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn polygonum <rmoudndgers@vrod.co.uk> - 2014-05-31 09:06 +0100
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-05-31 10:28 +0200
Re: Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn Johny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2014-05-26 17:54 +0100
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| From | Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-31 07:29 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <proto-F84D23.07292831052014@news.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #3433 |
In article <but8deFn115U1@mid.individual.net>, "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: > That won't necessarily make the system vastly better > because it would discourage many are guilty from > fessing up to what they did so they get a lesser penalty. It would cost a LOT of money, but it would reduce the pressure on the innocent to plead guilty, which is worst feature of the present system. And voters are not willing to pay for adequate defense of the accused. -- Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.
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| From | "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-01 07:36 +1000 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <buv0ahF3t0vU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #3441 |
"Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message news:proto-F84D23.07292831052014@news.panix.com... > In article <but8deFn115U1@mid.individual.net>, > "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: > >> That [banning plea bargains] won't necessarily make the system >> vastly better because it would discourage many who are guilty >> from fessing up to what they did so they get a lesser penalty. > > It would cost a LOT of money, but it would reduce the pressure on the > innocent to plead guilty, which is worst feature of the present system. It would not only cost a lot of money, it would also see many more who are guilty not get jailed for their crime because of the difficulty with proof beyond reasonable doubt. > And voters are not willing to pay for adequate defense of the accused. Because they mostly believe that the accused is guilty to end up as the accused.
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| From | Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-31 17:47 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <proto-9AF8F0.17472331052014@news.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #3446 |
In article <buv0ahF3t0vU1@mid.individual.net>, "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: > "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message > news:proto-F84D23.07292831052014@news.panix.com... > > In article <but8deFn115U1@mid.individual.net>, > > "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> That [banning plea bargains] won't necessarily make the system > >> vastly better because it would discourage many who are guilty > >> from fessing up to what they did so they get a lesser penalty. > > > > It would cost a LOT of money, but it would reduce the pressure on the > > innocent to plead guilty, which is worst feature of the present system. > > It would not only cost a lot of money, it would also see many > more who are guilty not get jailed for their crime because of > the difficulty with proof beyond reasonable doubt. > > > And voters are not willing to pay for adequate defense of the accused. > > Because they mostly believe that the accused is guilty > to end up as the accused. And that last is usually true, but. -- Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.
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| From | "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-01 09:37 +1000 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <buv7dpF59r9U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #3448 |
"Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message news:proto-9AF8F0.17472331052014@news.panix.com... > In article <buv0ahF3t0vU1@mid.individual.net>, > "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: > >> "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message >> news:proto-F84D23.07292831052014@news.panix.com... >> > In article <but8deFn115U1@mid.individual.net>, >> > "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> >> That [banning plea bargains] won't necessarily make the system >> >> vastly better because it would discourage many who are guilty >> >> from fessing up to what they did so they get a lesser penalty. >> > >> > It would cost a LOT of money, but it would reduce the pressure on the >> > innocent to plead guilty, which is worst feature of the present system. >> >> It would not only cost a lot of money, it would also see many >> more who are guilty not get jailed for their crime because of >> the difficulty with proof beyond reasonable doubt. >> >> > And voters are not willing to pay for adequate defense of the accused. >> >> Because they mostly believe that the accused is guilty >> to end up as the accused. > > And that last is usually true, but. Its inevitable that any viable legal system will have that sort of thing. And the other one about 'its better that one innocent go free etc' too.
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| From | Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-01 00:00 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <234921433423273420.142337peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #3449 |
"ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: > "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message > news:proto-9AF8F0.17472331052014@news.panix.com... >> In article <buv0ahF3t0vU1@mid.individual.net>, >> "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message >>> news:proto-F84D23.07292831052014@news.panix.com... >>>> In article <but8deFn115U1@mid.individual.net>, >>>> "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> That [banning plea bargains] won't necessarily make the system >>>>> vastly better because it would discourage many who are guilty >>>>> from fessing up to what they did so they get a lesser penalty. >>>> >>>> It would cost a LOT of money, but it would reduce the pressure on the >>>> innocent to plead guilty, which is worst feature of the present system. >>> >>> It would not only cost a lot of money, it would also see many >>> more who are guilty not get jailed for their crime because of >>> the difficulty with proof beyond reasonable doubt. >>> >>>> And voters are not willing to pay for adequate defense of the accused. >>> >>> Because they mostly believe that the accused is guilty >>> to end up as the accused. >> >> And that last is usually true, but. > > Its inevitable that any viable legal system will have that sort of thing. > > And the other one about 'its better that one innocent go free etc' too. Backwards, but I get the idea. It's nice in theory, but no system designed and staffed by human beings is perfect. The best we can hope for is a legal system that produces reasonably correct decisions most of the time - with the rest being wrong one way no more often than the other. -- Pete
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| From | "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-01 11:34 +1000 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <buve95F6i5dU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #3453 |
"Peter Flass" <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:234921433423273420.142337peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org... > "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >> "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message >> news:proto-9AF8F0.17472331052014@news.panix.com... >>> In article <buv0ahF3t0vU1@mid.individual.net>, >>> "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message >>>> news:proto-F84D23.07292831052014@news.panix.com... >>>>> In article <but8deFn115U1@mid.individual.net>, >>>>> "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That [banning plea bargains] won't necessarily make the system >>>>>> vastly better because it would discourage many who are guilty >>>>>> from fessing up to what they did so they get a lesser penalty. >>>>> >>>>> It would cost a LOT of money, but it would reduce the pressure on the >>>>> innocent to plead guilty, which is worst feature of the present >>>>> system. >>>> >>>> It would not only cost a lot of money, it would also see many >>>> more who are guilty not get jailed for their crime because of >>>> the difficulty with proof beyond reasonable doubt. >>>> >>>>> And voters are not willing to pay for adequate defense of the accused. >>>> >>>> Because they mostly believe that the accused is guilty >>>> to end up as the accused. >>> >>> And that last is usually true, but. >> >> Its inevitable that any viable legal system will have that sort of thing. >> >> And the other one about 'its better that one innocent go free etc' too. > > Backwards, but I get the idea. It's nice in theory, but no > system designed and staffed by human beings is perfect. Sure, but that’s the whole point of that approach, that no system can ever be perfect and that its best to err on that side. > The best we can hope for is a legal system that produces > reasonably correct decisions most of the time - with the > rest being wrong one way no more often than the other. In fact that approach goes much further than that and errs on the side of not convicting the innocent even if that means that some guilty do go free.
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| From | Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-01 12:31 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <1222512098423317734.614328peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #3456 |
"ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: > "Peter Flass" <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:234921433423273420.142337peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org... >> "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >>> "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message >>> news:proto-9AF8F0.17472331052014@news.panix.com... >>>> In article <buv0ahF3t0vU1@mid.individual.net>, >>>> "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:proto-F84D23.07292831052014@news.panix.com... >>>>>> In article <but8deFn115U1@mid.individual.net>, >>>>>> "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> That [banning plea bargains] won't necessarily make the system >>>>>>> vastly better because it would discourage many who are guilty >>>>>>> from fessing up to what they did so they get a lesser penalty. >>>>>> >>>>>> It would cost a LOT of money, but it would reduce the pressure on the >>>>>> innocent to plead guilty, which is worst feature of the present >>>>> system. >>>>> >>>>> It would not only cost a lot of money, it would also see many >>>>> more who are guilty not get jailed for their crime because of >>>>> the difficulty with proof beyond reasonable doubt. >>>>> >>>>>> And voters are not willing to pay for adequate defense of the accused. >>>>> >>>>> Because they mostly believe that the accused is guilty >>>>> to end up as the accused. >>>> >>>> And that last is usually true, but. >>> >>> Its inevitable that any viable legal system will have that sort of thing. >>> >>> And the other one about 'its better that one innocent go free etc' too. >> >> Backwards, but I get the idea. It's nice in theory, but no >> system designed and staffed by human beings is perfect. > > Sure, but that’s the whole point of that approach, that no > system can ever be perfect and that its best to err on that side. > >> The best we can hope for is a legal system that produces >> reasonably correct decisions most of the time - with the >> rest being wrong one way no more often than the other. > > In fact that approach goes much further than that > and errs on the side of not convicting the innocent > even if that means that some guilty do go free. If an innocent guy is convicted and gets sent to jail it's a tragedy for him and his family. If guilty guy goes free it's a tragedy for the victims of the robberies, rapes, murders, etc. he is statistically likely to commit before he is finally put in jail for something, to say nothing of the victims of the original crime who are denied justice. From a utilitarian point of view, it's better that a few innocent people get thrown in jail in error rather than have a bunch of guilty people go free to commit more crimes. -- Pete
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| From | "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-01 12:48 -0800 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <994.300T1987T7685704@kltpzyxm.invalid> |
| In reply to | #3463 |
In article <1222512098423317734.614328peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal- september.org>, peter_flass@yahoo.com (Peter Flass) writes: > If an innocent guy is convicted and gets sent to jail it's a tragedy > for him and his family. If guilty guy goes free it's a tragedy for > the victims of the robberies, rapes, murders, etc. he is statistically > likely to commit before he is finally put in jail for something, > to say nothing of the victims of the original crime who are denied > justice. From a utilitarian point of view, it's better that a few > innocent people get thrown in jail in error rather than have a bunch > of guilty people go free to commit more crimes. You really wouldn't want such a system to include the death penalty. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| From | "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-02 09:22 +1000 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <bv1qttFlvt8U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #3463 |
"Peter Flass" <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1222512098423317734.614328peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org... > "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >> "Peter Flass" <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:234921433423273420.142337peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org... >>> "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message >>>> news:proto-9AF8F0.17472331052014@news.panix.com... >>>>> In article <buv0ahF3t0vU1@mid.individual.net>, >>>>> "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message >>>>>> news:proto-F84D23.07292831052014@news.panix.com... >>>>>>> In article <but8deFn115U1@mid.individual.net>, >>>>>>> "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That [banning plea bargains] won't necessarily make the system >>>>>>>> vastly better because it would discourage many who are guilty >>>>>>>> from fessing up to what they did so they get a lesser penalty. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It would cost a LOT of money, but it would reduce the pressure on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> innocent to plead guilty, which is worst feature of the present >>>>>>> >>>>> system. >>>>>> >>>>>> It would not only cost a lot of money, it would also see many >>>>>> more who are guilty not get jailed for their crime because of >>>>>> the difficulty with proof beyond reasonable doubt. >>>>>> >>>>>>> And voters are not willing to pay for adequate defense of the >>>>>>> accused. >>>>>> >>>>>> Because they mostly believe that the accused is guilty >>>>>> to end up as the accused. >>>>> >>>>> And that last is usually true, but. >>>> >>>> Its inevitable that any viable legal system will have that sort of >>>> thing. >>>> >>>> And the other one about 'its better that one innocent go free etc' too. >>> >>> Backwards, but I get the idea. It's nice in theory, but no >>> system designed and staffed by human beings is perfect. >> >> Sure, but that’s the whole point of that approach, that no >> system can ever be perfect and that its best to err on that side. >> >>> The best we can hope for is a legal system that produces >>> reasonably correct decisions most of the time - with the >>> rest being wrong one way no more often than the other. >> >> In fact that approach goes much further than that >> and errs on the side of not convicting the innocent >> even if that means that some guilty do go free. > > If an innocent guy is convicted and gets sent to jail it's a tragedy for > him and his family. If guilty guy goes free it's a tragedy for the > victims of the robberies, rapes, murders, etc. he is statistically likely > to commit before he is finally put in jail for something, to say nothing > of > the victims of the original crime who are denied justice. But we have chosen to err that way anyway. > From a utilitarian point of view, it's better that a few innocent people > get > thrown in jail in error rather than have a bunch of guilty people go free > to commit more crimes. In fact its only a few guilty people who don’t get convicted for any of their crimes. And even fewer in systems which plea bargain.
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| From | Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-02 07:09 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <538c5b6f$38$fuzhry+tra$mr2ice@news.patriot.net> |
| In reply to | #3463 |
In <1222512098423317734.614328peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>, on 06/01/2014 at 12:31 PM, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> said: >If an innocent guy is convicted and gets sent to jail it's a >tragedy for him and his family. If guilty guy goes free it's a >tragedy for the victims of the robberies, rapes, murders, etc. >he is statistically likely to commit before he is finally put in >jail for something, to say nothing of the victims of the original >crime who are denied justice. From a utilitarian point of view, >it's better that a few innocent people get thrown in jail in error >rather than have a bunch of guilty people go free to commit more >crimes. Keep that in mind if you are ever falsely accused. A system with that sort of bias guaranties abuses. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel> Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-02 16:27 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <XB1jv.517789$hv6.103061@fx17.iad> |
| In reply to | #3488 |
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> writes: >In ><1222512098423317734.614328peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>, >on 06/01/2014 > at 12:31 PM, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> said: > >>If an innocent guy is convicted and gets sent to jail it's a >>tragedy for him and his family. If guilty guy goes free it's a >>tragedy for the victims of the robberies, rapes, murders, etc. >>he is statistically likely to commit before he is finally put in >>jail for something, to say nothing of the victims of the original >>crime who are denied justice. From a utilitarian point of view, >>it's better that a few innocent people get thrown in jail in error >>rather than have a bunch of guilty people go free to commit more >>crimes. > >Keep that in mind if you are ever falsely accused. A system with that >sort of bias guaranties abuses. Not to mention that it is counter to the American ideal of presumed innocence.
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| From | Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-02 13:00 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <lmie45$7fl$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #3491 |
On 6/2/2014 11:27 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote: > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> writes: >> In >> <1222512098423317734.614328peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>, >> on 06/01/2014 >> at 12:31 PM, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> said: >> >>> If an innocent guy is convicted and gets sent to jail it's a >>> tragedy for him and his family. If guilty guy goes free it's a >>> tragedy for the victims of the robberies, rapes, murders, etc. >>> he is statistically likely to commit before he is finally put in >>> jail for something, to say nothing of the victims of the original >>> crime who are denied justice. From a utilitarian point of view, >>> it's better that a few innocent people get thrown in jail in error >>> rather than have a bunch of guilty people go free to commit more >>> crimes. >> >> Keep that in mind if you are ever falsely accused. A system with that >> sort of bias guaranties abuses. > > Not to mention that it is counter to the American ideal of presumed > innocence. > Oh well. American "ideals" have taken quite a beating since 9-11.
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| From | "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-02 13:16 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <lmif2g$gjs$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #3492 |
"Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message news:lmie45$7fl$1@dont-email.me... > On 6/2/2014 11:27 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote: >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> writes: >>> In >>> <1222512098423317734.614328peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>, >>> on 06/01/2014 >>> at 12:31 PM, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> said: >>> >>>> If an innocent guy is convicted and gets sent to jail it's a >>>> tragedy for him and his family. If guilty guy goes free it's a >>>> tragedy for the victims of the robberies, rapes, murders, etc. >>>> he is statistically likely to commit before he is finally put in >>>> jail for something, to say nothing of the victims of the original >>>> crime who are denied justice. From a utilitarian point of view, >>>> it's better that a few innocent people get thrown in jail in error >>>> rather than have a bunch of guilty people go free to commit more >>>> crimes. >>> >>> Keep that in mind if you are ever falsely accused. A system with that >>> sort of bias guaranties abuses. >> >> Not to mention that it is counter to the American ideal of presumed >> innocence. >> > > Oh well. American "ideals" have taken quite a beating since 9-11. ...and eight years of a Republican President with six years of a Republican-dominated Congress. -- numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| From | Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-02 13:57 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <lmihf4$2qa$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #3493 |
On 02-Jun-14 13:16, Charles Richmond wrote: > "Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message > news:lmie45$7fl$1@dont-email.me... >> On 6/2/2014 11:27 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote: >>> Not to mention that it is counter to the American ideal of >>> presumed innocence. >> >> Oh well. American "ideals" have taken quite a beating since 9-11. > > ...and eight years of a Republican President with six years of a > Republican-dominated Congress. ... and following that eight years of a DINO President with six years of a Republican-dominated Congress. S -- Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
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| From | Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-08-29 13:38 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <ltqdq9$fpm$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #3463 |
On 2014-06-01 8:31 AM, Peter Flass wrote:>> even if that means that some guilty do go free. > > If an innocent guy is convicted and gets sent to jail it's a tragedy for > him and his family. If guilty guy goes free it's a tragedy for the > victims of the robberies, rapes, murders, etc. he is statistically likely > to commit before he is finally put in jail for something, to say nothing of > the victims of the original crime who are denied justice. From a > utilitarian point of view, it's better that a few innocent people get > thrown in jail in error rather than have a bunch of guilty people go free > to commit more crimes. The problem with that argument is that if an innocent person goes to prison, the guilty party is still out there and even MORE likely to commit crimes. Picking some random person up and using him as whipping boy for a crime he did not commit does NOT act a deterrent to the actual perpetrator.
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| From | Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-08-29 22:14 +0300 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <87oav3umz9.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> |
| In reply to | #4591 |
Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca>: > On 2014-06-01 8:31 AM, Peter Flass wrote: >> If an innocent guy is convicted and gets sent to jail it's a tragedy >> for him and his family. If guilty guy goes free it's a tragedy for >> the victims of the robberies, rapes, murders, etc. he is >> statistically likely to commit before he is finally put in jail for >> something, to say nothing of the victims of the original crime who >> are denied justice. From a utilitarian point of view, it's better >> that a few innocent people get thrown in jail in error rather than >> have a bunch of guilty people go free to commit more crimes. > > The problem with that argument is that if an innocent person goes to > prison, the guilty party is still out there and even MORE likely to > commit crimes. Picking some random person up and using him as whipping > boy for a crime he did not commit does NOT act a deterrent to the > actual perpetrator. A good point. I get the feeling that in the American legal tradition, it doesn't much matter who pays the price as long as the cosmic balance of crime and punishment is preserved. Note, though, that the criminal law is not there to serve the interests of the past and future victims. It is a tool for the government. Its main objective is to preserve social order. For example, the principal purpose of the death penalty is to prevent family vendettas, which could shred the social fabric. In less vindictive societies, the government doesn't see the need for the death penalty. Marko
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| From | greymaus <greymausg@mail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-08-29 20:55 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <slrnm01p36.de9.greymausg@dmaus.org> |
| In reply to | #4594 |
On 2014-08-29, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: > Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca>: > >> On 2014-06-01 8:31 AM, Peter Flass wrote: > doesn't much matter who pays the price as long as the cosmic balance of > crime and punishment is preserved. > > Note, though, that the criminal law is not there to serve the interests > of the past and future victims. It is a tool for the government. Its > main objective is to preserve social order. For example, the principal > purpose of the death penalty is to prevent family vendettas, which could > shred the social fabric. In less vindictive societies, the government > doesn't see the need for the death penalty. > > All agreed. Maus
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| From | Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-08-30 01:21 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <1769121354431053915.326830peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #4594 |
Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: > Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca>: > >> On 2014-06-01 8:31 AM, Peter Flass wrote: >>> If an innocent guy is convicted and gets sent to jail it's a tragedy >>> for him and his family. If guilty guy goes free it's a tragedy for >>> the victims of the robberies, rapes, murders, etc. he is >>> statistically likely to commit before he is finally put in jail for >>> something, to say nothing of the victims of the original crime who >>> are denied justice. From a utilitarian point of view, it's better >>> that a few innocent people get thrown in jail in error rather than >>> have a bunch of guilty people go free to commit more crimes. >> >> The problem with that argument is that if an innocent person goes to >> prison, the guilty party is still out there and even MORE likely to >> commit crimes. Picking some random person up and using him as whipping >> boy for a crime he did not commit does NOT act a deterrent to the >> actual perpetrator. > > A good point. I get the feeling that in the American legal tradition, it > doesn't much matter who pays the price as long as the cosmic balance of > crime and punishment is preserved. > > Note, though, that the criminal law is not there to serve the interests > of the past and future victims. It is a tool for the government. Its > main objective is to preserve social order. For example, the principal > purpose of the death penalty is to prevent family vendettas, which could > shred the social fabric. Like the guy in Texas who just shot the drunk driver who killed his two kids? He was acquitted. in less vindictive societies, the government > doesn't see the need for the death penalty. > > > Marko -- Pete
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| From | Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-05-31 23:54 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <944481228423273073.840907peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #3446 |
"ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: > "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message > news:proto-F84D23.07292831052014@news.panix.com... >> In article <but8deFn115U1@mid.individual.net>, >> "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> That [banning plea bargains] won't necessarily make the system >>> vastly better because it would discourage many who are guilty >>> from fessing up to what they did so they get a lesser penalty. >> >> It would cost a LOT of money, but it would reduce the pressure on the >> innocent to plead guilty, which is worst feature of the present system. > > It would not only cost a lot of money, it would also see many > more who are guilty not get jailed for their crime because of > the difficulty with proof beyond reasonable doubt. > >> And voters are not willing to pay for adequate defense of the accused. > > Because they mostly believe that the accused is guilty > to end up as the accused. I usually try to add "alleged", as in "he allegedly killed his girlfriend", but often it's so obvious it's hard to say that with a straight face. -- Pete
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| From | Rich <rich@example.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-01 09:23 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: How much does a Revamped PDP-11 in Brooklyn weigh? |
| Message-ID | <lmereg$jeq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #3446 |
In comp.misc ratty <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: > "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message > news:proto-F84D23.07292831052014@news.panix.com... > > In article <but8deFn115U1@mid.individual.net>, > > "ratty" <ratty@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> That [banning plea bargains] won't necessarily make the system > >> vastly better because it would discourage many who are guilty from > >> fessing up to what they did so they get a lesser penalty. > > > > It would cost a LOT of money, but it would reduce the pressure on > > the innocent to plead guilty, which is worst feature of the present > > system. > It would not only cost a lot of money, it would also see many more > who are guilty not get jailed for their crime because of the . Except that the "difficulty with proof beyond reasonable doubt"is exactly the point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_formulation It is supposed to be hard to prove guilt, so as to help prevent someone who is innocent from being convicted. The plea bargan/expense of defense problems we have now tend to invert that premise such that many innocent plead guilty to a lesser charge just to make things go away. > > And voters are not willing to pay for adequate defense of the > > accused. > Because they mostly believe that the accused is guilty to end up as > the accused. While I do agree with your statement, it is not how the system is supposed to work. "Presumed innocent" is supposed to be how it works.
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