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New facebook cryptocurrency truck system

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  New facebook cryptocurrency truck system Steve555 <Steve555@reallybogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> - 2019-06-18 16:10 +0000
    Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2019-06-18 18:30 +0000
      Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system Steve555 <Steve555@reallybogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> - 2019-06-18 18:40 +0000
      Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system Steve555 <Steve555@reallybogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> - 2019-06-18 18:45 +0000
      Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2019-06-18 20:36 -0400
        Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2019-06-19 09:10 +0000
    Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2019-06-18 23:18 +0000
      Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system Steve555 <Steve555@reallybogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> - 2019-06-19 08:51 +0000
      Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2019-06-19 09:10 +0000
        Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system Steve555 <Steve555@reallybogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> - 2019-06-19 09:33 +0000
          Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2019-06-19 09:50 +0000
        Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2019-06-19 23:56 +0000
          Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system Kees Nuyt <k.nuyt@nospam.demon.nl> - 2019-06-23 17:15 +0200
            Re: New facebook cryptocurrency truck system Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2019-06-23 20:49 +0100

#18239 — New facebook cryptocurrency truck system

Today sees the launch of facebook's new cryptocurrency system.  According to the
report in the guardian, people who work for the consortium of corporations 
behind it are eventually expected to be paid in this cryptocurrency, 
the Libra; see https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jun/18/
what-is-libra-facebook-new-cryptocurrency

People have short memories.  One of the worst abuses during the industrial
revolution in Britain was the truck system.  A truck system was where an
employer would pay his employees in his own tokens, which could only be spent
at shops owned by the employer.  This led to many abuses and eventually 
large-scale social unrest with bloody riots that led to the passing of laws 
in the british parliament to outlaw such truck systems; they remain illegal 
to this day.  There is a folk memory of those times in the expression 
"I'll have no truck with that", meaning you want nothing to do with something.
For an introduction see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_wages and
http://www.mining-memorabilia.co.uk/Tokens.htm#Truck%20Tokens .

So, how is the facebook cryptocurrency different from a truck system?

It will be aimed at the "new poor" precariat working in very insecure jobs
in the "gig economy".  A new token currency for people too poor to earn dollars,
as the western economies continue their race to the bottom.

-- 
  Gnd  -|o----|- Vcc      Hey computer, what's the weather in Sydney?
 trig  -| 555 |- dschrg   $> finger o:sydney@graph.no|tail -1|espeak
  o/p  -|     |- thrsh
  rst  -|-----|- cntrl    Steve555

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#18240

On 2019-06-18, Steve555 <Steve555@reallybogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> Today sees the launch of facebook's new cryptocurrency system.  According to the
> report in the guardian, people who work for the consortium of corporations 
> behind it are eventually expected to be paid in this cryptocurrency, 
> the Libra; see https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jun/18/
> what-is-libra-facebook-new-cryptocurrency

Haven't read the article and likely won't. If Zuckerborg thinks I'm handing
him my banking, too, he's got another think coming. But if the article
is as much bollocks as the garbage being spouted by the BBC's "technology
reporter" (whose qualifications, if any, were obviously in History of
Art, or similar), then I wouldn't worry.

-- 
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 23rd day of Confusion in the YOLD 3185
                  Rising above bedlam

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#18241

On 2019-06-18, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> Haven't read the article and likely won't. If Zuckerborg thinks I'm handing
> him my banking, too, he's got another think coming. But if the article
> is as much bollocks as the garbage being spouted by the BBC's "technology
> reporter" (whose qualifications, if any, were obviously in History of
> Art, or similar), then I wouldn't worry.
>
Well, I sure hope you're right and I'm wrong ;-)

-- 
  Gnd  -|o----|- Vcc      Hey computer, what's the weather in Sydney?
 trig  -| 555 |- dschrg   $> finger o:sydney@graph.no|tail -1|espeak
  o/p  -|     |- thrsh
  rst  -|-----|- cntrl    Steve555

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#18242

> Haven't read the article and likely won't. If Zuckerborg thinks I'm handing
> him my banking, too, he's got another think coming. But if the article
> is as much bollocks as the garbage being spouted by the BBC's "technology
> reporter" (whose qualifications, if any, were obviously in History of
> Art, or similar), then I wouldn't worry.
>
The standard of journalism in the Guardian isn't much better.
They describe this new thing as "a digital asset".  But it's not an asset
in any shape or form.  It's a number in a zuckerberg's database.

-- 
  Gnd  -|o----|- Vcc      Hey computer, what's the weather in Sydney?
 trig  -| 555 |- dschrg   $> finger o:sydney@graph.no|tail -1|espeak
  o/p  -|     |- thrsh
  rst  -|-----|- cntrl    Steve555

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#18245

On 2019-06-18, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2019-06-18, Steve555 <Steve555@reallybogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> Haven't read the article and likely won't. If Zuckerborg thinks I'm
> handing him my banking, too, he's got another think coming. But if the
> article is as much bollocks as the garbage being spouted by the BBC's
> "technology reporter" (whose qualifications, if any, were obviously in
> History of Art, or similar), then I wouldn't worry.
>

Zuckerdouche is too busy trying to hang onto his job at the moment.  His
activist investors want him gone.

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#18252

On 2019-06-19, RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> On 2019-06-18, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2019-06-18, Steve555 <Steve555@reallybogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>> Haven't read the article and likely won't. If Zuckerborg thinks I'm
>> handing him my banking, too, he's got another think coming. But if the
>> article is as much bollocks as the garbage being spouted by the BBC's
>> "technology reporter" (whose qualifications, if any, were obviously in
>> History of Art, or similar), then I wouldn't worry.
>>
>
> Zuckerdouche is too busy trying to hang onto his job at the moment.  His
> activist investors want him gone.

An argument I want both sides to lose.


-- 
Today is Setting Orange, the 24th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3185
                  Rising above bedlam

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18243

Steve555 <Steve555@reallybogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> Today sees the launch of facebook's new cryptocurrency system.  According to the
> report in the guardian, people who work for the consortium of corporations 
> behind it are eventually expected to be paid in this cryptocurrency, 
> the Libra; see https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jun/18/
> what-is-libra-facebook-new-cryptocurrency
> 
> People have short memories.  One of the worst abuses during the industrial
> revolution in Britain was the truck system.  A truck system was where an
> employer would pay his employees in his own tokens, which could only be spent
> at shops owned by the employer.  This led to many abuses and eventually 
> large-scale social unrest with bloody riots that led to the passing of laws 
> in the british parliament to outlaw such truck systems; they remain illegal 
> to this day.  There is a folk memory of those times in the expression 
> "I'll have no truck with that", meaning you want nothing to do with something.
> For an introduction see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_wages and
> http://www.mining-memorabilia.co.uk/Tokens.htm#Truck%20Tokens .
> 
> So, how is the facebook cryptocurrency different from a truck system?

A fair concern, especially in 3rd world countries. It comes down to
how easy it will be to convert the Libra money into local currency.
If there end up being Libra ATMs everywhere, then it would be less of
a worry.

But it isn't until you get to the end of this:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jun/18/what-is-libra-facebook-new-cryptocurrency
article that you see one of the main (though perhaps unsurprising)
catches. They will be charging a fee on each transaction.

In theory, PayPal already solved most problems associated with
international payments, however the trouble is that they are
centralised and charge fees all over the place (and if you read
the full terms and conditions, you'll see how complicated the
fee structure really is). Now Facebook are discussing a new system
that is again centralised (only the Libra Association can validate
transactions, according to that article), and again charges fees for
transactions. So no surprise that PayPal are working with them (along
with the credit card companies), it's just an evolution of their
existing model.

The exciting thing about Bitcoin was that, compared to PayPal, it was
a true currency rather than a service. You could choose how it was
processed and what fees were involved, if any (in theory). Now
Facebook have something that can apparantly be defined as a currency,
but still has the major disadvantages of PayPal.

It also looks like people doing online transactions may eventually be
forced into using it, given that the existing service providers are
all on its side.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#18250

> A fair concern, especially in 3rd world countries. It comes down to
> how easy it will be to convert the Libra money into local currency.
> If there end up being Libra ATMs everywhere, then it would be less of
> a worry.
>
> But it isn't until you get to the end of this:
> article that you see one of the main (though perhaps unsurprising)
> catches. They will be charging a fee on each transaction.
>
> In theory, PayPal already solved most problems associated with
> international payments, however the trouble is that they are
> centralised and charge fees all over the place (and if you read
> the full terms and conditions, you'll see how complicated the
> fee structure really is). Now Facebook are discussing a new system
> that is again centralised (only the Libra Association can validate
> transactions, according to that article), and again charges fees for
> transactions. So no surprise that PayPal are working with them (along
> with the credit card companies), it's just an evolution of their
> existing model.
>
> The exciting thing about Bitcoin was that, compared to PayPal, it was
> a true currency rather than a service. You could choose how it was
> processed and what fees were involved, if any (in theory). Now
> Facebook have something that can apparantly be defined as a currency,
> but still has the major disadvantages of PayPal.
>
> It also looks like people doing online transactions may eventually be
> forced into using it, given that the existing service providers are
> all on its side.
>
Interesting analysis.. I hadn't thought of this as an extrapolation
of the current paypal service, but I think you're right.
Maybe it is made possible by a convergence of technologies
from paypal, facebook and the credit card companies involved in
the consortium.  Interesting to see the presence of uber too;
I'm sure that in time they would like to pay their legions of
precariat workers in 'libra'.

I agree about bitcoin, it appeared to be a fully open system not
under any central control, certainly at the start when there was 
some idealism surrounding it.  Yes, the facecoin is a privately
controlled, paid service.  Or in my terms, a truck token, albeit
a sophisticated one using modern technology, spanning a cartel
of multiple companies and having international reach.

The article says employees may "opt" to take their salary in libra.
So you're at a job i/v and you ask to be paid in hard currency
and opt-out of 'libra'.  What are you chances of landing the job?

Where it veers into overbearing control is when employers
demand employees take their wages in it, or one is forced to use
it for purchases by having no other available option, as you mentioned.

-- 
  Gnd  -|o----|- Vcc      Hey computer, what's the weather in Sydney?
 trig  -| 555 |- dschrg   $> finger o:sydney@graph.no|tail -1|espeak
  o/p  -|     |- thrsh
  rst  -|-----|- cntrl    Steve555

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#18251

On 2019-06-18, Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

[snip]

> But it isn't until you get to the end of this:
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jun/18/what-is-libra-facebook-new-cryptocurrency
> article that you see one of the main (though perhaps unsurprising)
> catches. They will be charging a fee on each transaction.

Just like a bank, then. So, what's the point?

[snip]

> The exciting thing about Bitcoin was that, compared to PayPal, it was
> a true currency rather than a service. You could choose how it was
> processed and what fees were involved, if any (in theory).

The last two words being the important ones.

> It also looks like people doing online transactions may eventually be
> forced into using it, 

Ain't gonna happen.



-- 
Today is Setting Orange, the 24th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3185
                  Rising above bedlam

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#18256

On 2019-06-19, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>
>> It also looks like people doing online transactions may eventually be
>> forced into using it, 
>
> Ain't gonna happen.
>
>
>
Maybe you're right.  There is already political opposition, only one
day after the announcement:-
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/mb84a4/
facebooks-new-cryptocurrency-libra-is-already-under-fire-from-lawmakers 


-- 
  Gnd  -|o----|- Vcc      Hey computer, what's the weather in Sydney?
 trig  -| 555 |- dschrg   $> finger o:sydney@graph.no|tail -1|espeak
  o/p  -|     |- thrsh
  rst  -|-----|- cntrl    Steve555

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18257

On 2019-06-19, Steve555 <Steve555@reallybogus.nodomain.nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> On 2019-06-19, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> It also looks like people doing online transactions may eventually be
>>> forced into using it, 
>>
>> Ain't gonna happen.
>>
>>
>>
> Maybe you're right.  There is already political opposition, only one
> day after the announcement:-
> https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/mb84a4/
> facebooks-new-cryptocurrency-libra-is-already-under-fire-from-lawmakers 

TPTB dislike cryptocurrencies intensely, since they're hard to track,
tax and inflate.


-- 
Today is Setting Orange, the 24th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3185
                  Rising above bedlam

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#18268

Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2019-06-18, Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> But it isn't until you get to the end of this:
>> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jun/18/what-is-libra-facebook-new-cryptocurrency
>> article that you see one of the main (though perhaps unsurprising)
>> catches. They will be charging a fee on each transaction.
> 
> Just like a bank, then. So, what's the point?

I've been wondering about that as well. Does being it's own currency
really offer the average person anything new over PayPal or credit
card payments?

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#18290

On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 23:56:17 +0000 (UTC),
not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:

> I've been wondering about that as well. Does being it's own currency
> really offer the average person anything new over PayPal or credit
> card payments?

Single signon. In some countries facebook already is used as a
trade platform.
-- 
Regards,
Kees Nuyt

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#18291

Kees Nuyt <k.nuyt@nospam.demon.nl> writes:
> not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:

>> I've been wondering about that as well. Does being it's own currency
>> really offer the average person anything new over PayPal or credit
>> card payments?
>
> Single signon. In some countries facebook already is used as a
> trade platform.

You don’t need a new currency for that. Indeed Facebook was already
capable of sending real money between users.

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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