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Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user.

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  Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-14 11:42 +1100
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 19:30 -0600
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-14 01:39 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user.     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2016-01-13 18:06 -0800
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2016-01-13 21:30 -0600
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:26 +0000
              Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:42 +0000
                Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 10:33 +0100
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> - 2016-01-14 19:32 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-14 14:51 -0500
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-01-15 01:42 -0400
              Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-15 13:08 +0000
                Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2016-01-15 15:47 -0400
                  Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-15 19:57 +0000
                    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-15 15:36 -0500
                  Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 10:43 +0100
                    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2016-01-29 17:08 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-17 16:21 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:26 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:44 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2016-01-15 14:25 +0200
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-17 16:09 +0100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:25 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-17 16:04 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-17 16:07 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 10:51 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-18 11:59 +1100
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-17 22:55 -0500
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-18 08:55 +0000
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-18 23:25 +1100
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 11:09 +0100
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-14 02:36 +0000
    Re:Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2016-01-14 09:20 +0400
      Re: Re:Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-14 11:11 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-14 12:58 +0100
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:19 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:31 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 11:50 +0100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 11:24 +0100
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-01-14 08:38 +0200
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-14 18:12 +1100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-24 10:45 +0100
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-24 22:47 +1100
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-01-24 14:07 +0200
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-18 00:15 +0100
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-14 15:18 +0000
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2016-01-15 14:16 +0200
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-15 12:17 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 18:56 -0600
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 23:53 -0600
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-16 17:16 +1100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-16 18:03 -0500
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Batchman <batchman@fastmail.fm> - 2016-01-16 11:01 +1100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-15 23:38 -0500
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2016-01-15 23:51 -0600
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-16 10:40 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-16 17:59 -0500
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-22 19:23 +1100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-22 10:53 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-22 17:23 +0000
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-22 13:12 +0100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. polygonum <rmoudndgers@vrod.co.uk> - 2016-01-22 18:38 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. "G. Paul Ziemba" <unp@ziemba.us> - 2016-01-24 18:14 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-24 16:31 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-24 19:52 +0100
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2016-01-24 22:07 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-24 21:36 -0500
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-29 15:29 +1100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-29 16:38 +1100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> - 2016-01-29 10:19 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-01-29 11:57 +0100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-01-29 11:00 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-29 13:22 -0500
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-01-29 19:49 +0000
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-29 23:30 -0500
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-01-29 22:36 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-01-30 12:25 +1100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-01-29 23:33 -0500
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-02-03 19:02 +1100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2016-02-03 11:45 +0100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-02-03 11:30 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-02-03 23:18 +1100
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2016-02-03 12:55 +0000
    Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-12-02 11:23 +1100
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-12-02 01:37 +0000
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-12-02 13:12 +1100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2017-12-02 09:39 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-12-02 18:02 +0000
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2017-12-02 12:44 -0800
              Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2017-12-03 09:31 +0000
            Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2017-12-03 09:43 +0000
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Eric Pozharski <whynot@pozharski.name> - 2017-12-02 15:31 +0200
      Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-12-14 12:50 +1100
        Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-12-14 02:06 +0000
          Re: Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-12-21 13:52 +1100

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#9969 — Let's compile a list of ways to annoy the user.

We should probably limit it to things people have actually seen.

1. Limits that are not stated up front.

2. If the user tries to submit a form with invalid data, clear the form, 
and make the user fill it all in again.

3. Have an on-line support chat page that offers the option to print-out 
the chat so far, but when the chat ends, go immediately to another page, 
without letting the user print out the whole thing.

(I got that just the other day, and the page I got sent too was a 
feedback page so that I could rate the experience I'd just had).

Sylvia.

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#9972

On 1/13/2016 18:42, Sylvia Else wrote:
> We should probably limit it to things people have actually seen.
>
> 1. Limits that are not stated up front.
>
> 2. If the user tries to submit a form with invalid data, clear the form,
> and make the user fill it all in again.
>
> 3. Have an on-line support chat page that offers the option to print-out
> the chat so far, but when the chat ends, go immediately to another page,
> without letting the user print out the whole thing.
>
> (I got that just the other day, and the page I got sent too was a
> feedback page so that I could rate the experience I'd just had).

Your second is my first, followed closely by:

Demanding that my address be entered in some sequence that differs 
markedly from ordinary (and Post Office mandated) and having demanded 
ZIP code before "City" or "State" or both does not populate the 
following blocks.  (Extra points for using it to whine about typos.)

Demanding "so we can call you if necessary" my telephone number which is 
in my "profile" AND has not changed in 25 years AND requiring that it be 
entered in a format markedly different from that mandated by ordinary 
practice and the directions of the originator of the North American 
Numbering Plan Area system.


-- 
sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)

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#9974

On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 19:30:52 -0600, Larry Sheldon wrote:

> On 1/13/2016 18:42, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> We should probably limit it to things people have actually seen.
>>
>> 1. Limits that are not stated up front.
>>
>> 2. If the user tries to submit a form with invalid data, clear the
>> form,
>> and make the user fill it all in again.
>>
>> 3. Have an on-line support chat page that offers the option to
>> print-out the chat so far, but when the chat ends, go immediately to
>> another page,
>> without letting the user print out the whole thing.
>>
>> (I got that just the other day, and the page I got sent too was a
>> feedback page so that I could rate the experience I'd just had).
> 
> Your second is my first, followed closely by:
> 
> Demanding that my address be entered in some sequence that differs
> markedly from ordinary (and Post Office mandated) and having demanded
> ZIP code before "City" or "State" or both does not populate the
> following blocks.  (Extra points for using it to whine about typos.)
> 
> Demanding "so we can call you if necessary" my telephone number which is
> in my "profile" AND has not changed in 25 years AND requiring that it be
> entered in a format markedly different from that mandated by ordinary
> practice and the directions of the originator of the North American
> Numbering Plan Area system.

Demand that (say) a credit card number be inserted without spaces, but 
nowhere actually mention that fact. Then reject it if spaces are 
included, saying "re-enter without spaces" instead of just fixing it. 
Dates and telephone numbers ditto.




-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#9979

"Contact us by e-mail" means filling out a web form, without
also providing a real-life e-mail address, which I would
have used instead to send something and keep a copy of it
without having to do a screen shot.

-- 
Bill Evans / Box 1224 / Mariposa, CA 95338 / (209)742-4720
Mail-To: wje@acm.org   -- PGP encrypted mail preferred. --
pgpkey.mariposabill.com for public key.    Key #: 8D8B521B
PGPprint: 0A9C 3545 8FFF 7501 6265 1519 40FF 76F9 8D8B 521B

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#9980

On 1/13/2016 20:06, Bill Evans wrote:
> "Contact us by e-mail" means filling out a web form, without
> also providing a real-life e-mail address, which I would
> have used instead to send something and keep a copy of it
> without having to do a screen shot.
>

And the reply, if any, will be and honest-to-G*d email, telling you to 
log onto the web site to see the reply.

Which will "we don't answer that kind of question by email, call 
customer service."


-- 
sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)

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#9991

On 2016-01-14, Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/13/2016 20:06, Bill Evans wrote:
>> "Contact us by e-mail" means filling out a web form, without
>> also providing a real-life e-mail address, which I would
>> have used instead to send something and keep a copy of it
>> without having to do a screen shot.
>>
>
> And the reply, if any, will be and honest-to-G*d email, telling you to 
> log onto the web site to see the reply.
>
> Which will "we don't answer that kind of question by email, call 
> customer service."

*applause*


-- 
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 14th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3182
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#9993

Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2016-01-14, Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 1/13/2016 20:06, Bill Evans wrote:
> >> "Contact us by e-mail" means filling out a web form, without
> >> also providing a real-life e-mail address, which I would
> >> have used instead to send something and keep a copy of it
> >> without having to do a screen shot.
> >>
> >
> > And the reply, if any, will be and honest-to-G*d email, telling you to 
> > log onto the web site to see the reply.
> >
> > Which will "we don't answer that kind of question by email, call 
> > customer service."

> *applause*

And, the response will fail to include a phone number.  And when you go
to their online webpage looking for said phone number, they have
expunged all evidence of a phone number with which to call them from
the web pages.

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#10184

On 2016-01-14, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2016-01-14, Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 1/13/2016 20:06, Bill Evans wrote:
>> >> "Contact us by e-mail" means filling out a web form, without
>> >> also providing a real-life e-mail address, which I would
>> >> have used instead to send something and keep a copy of it
>> >> without having to do a screen shot.
>> >>
>> >
>> > And the reply, if any, will be and honest-to-G*d email, telling you to 
>> > log onto the web site to see the reply.
>> >
>> > Which will "we don't answer that kind of question by email, call 
>> > customer service."
>
>> *applause*
>
> And, the response will fail to include a phone number.  And when you go
> to their online webpage looking for said phone number, they have
> expunged all evidence of a phone number with which to call them from
> the web pages.

A variation on that is to supply phone numbers which only work inside
the country the company is based in.  The UK example of that was
0800 numbers (free) or 0345 numbers (local call rates apply).  The
support staff are usually completely unaware that these are not
accessible from abroad and simply regurgitate them with "they are
free/low cost so that's all you need".

A variation on that theme is where companies cannot understand that
you or a partner/spouse aren't at home all day or indeed spend more
than a week away from home at a time.

-- 
An invention needs to make sense in the world in which it's finished,
not the world in which it's started.                  -- Ray Kurzweil

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#9996

On 14/01/16 02:06, Bill Evans wrote:
> "Contact us by e-mail" means filling out a web form, without
> also providing a real-life e-mail address, which I would
> have used instead to send something and keep a copy of it
> without having to do a screen shot.

That one pisses me off too. I wouldn't be surprised if a whole
generation of web designers and programmers have grown up thinking that
email means Outlook's HTML and mere users don't even need that.

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#9997

On Wed, 13 Jan 2016, Bill Evans wrote:

> "Contact us by e-mail" means filling out a web form, without
> also providing a real-life e-mail address, which I would
> have used instead to send something and keep a copy of it
> without having to do a screen shot.
>
Or even worse, you click send before you grab a copy of your message, or 
soemthing fails and you've likewise lost it.

I have most emails (and usenet messages) I've sent since 1996, simply 
because the software automatically saves copies of what I've sent.  A web 
form is backward, though I assume businesses are trying to avoid email
"for spam reasons".

   Michael

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#9998

Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> writes:

> I have most emails (and usenet messages) I've sent since 1996, simply 
> because the software automatically saves copies of what I've sent.  A web 
> form is backward, though I assume businesses are trying to avoid email
> "for spam reasons".

Forms, even before the web, were often less important for gathering and
ordering information than they were for *excluding* information.

It is the exceptional person who can put a description of a problem,
situation, event... into clear, concise writing; even more exceptional
to be able to do it verbally on the fly.  Given that, people who are
tasked with acquiring information from J. Random Person about a
problem, situation etc. can simplify the task enormously by simply
requiring JRP to fill out a form.  An added benefit is that, once a
datum/remark is entered into a form, *that* becomes the *fact* in place
of whatever real-world phenomenon it might be supposed to represent.

Fast forward to the web, a medium perfectly suited to implementing
this strategy. The alternative would be that a human being, literate,
qualified to deal with the subject (triage, fwd appropriately, etc.)
has to actually *read* prose composed by JRP, make sense of it and
take appropriate action (reply, fix something, entrain person with
suitable  authority, etc.)  Bad enough if JRP's prose is lucid,
onerous if it's typical.

The answer is: If the people don't want to talk to you, don't want to
enter into a dialog, do without them.  You have to do without a lot of
things you'd like to have -- the Porsche or the private jet, say -- and
you can content your self with that.  But those things are
unattainable because you don't have the money.  You might want to do
without things that everybody else takes for granted because the costs
demanded in irritation, stress, dignity and so on are too high.

Admittedly, this is a hard position to take with the medical
establishment and, assuming you have *some* assets, your bank.  But
think of Naked Lunch.  See what it is that's on the end of your fork
before you put it in your mouth.  Maybe you don't want to do so.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#10002

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

> Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> writes:

> > I have most emails (and usenet messages) I've sent since 1996, simply 
> > because the software automatically saves copies of what I've sent.  A web 
> > form is backward, though I assume businesses are trying to avoid email
> > "for spam reasons".

> Forms, even before the web, were often less important for gathering and
> ordering information than they were for *excluding* information.

They were sometimes, both before the web and after, intended to serve
as reminders to the reporter of essential information required for the
receiving party to service the request.

> It is the exceptional person who can put a description of a problem,
> situation, event... into clear, concise writing; even more exceptional
> to be able to do it verbally on the fly.  Given that, people who are
> tasked with acquiring information from J. Random Person about a
> problem, situation etc. can simplify the task enormously by simply
> requiring JRP to fill out a form.

More often than not, J. Random Person does not realize/understand that
some background/context is required before jumping in to the
description of the "problem, situation, event...".  This is especially
bad when it comes to software support.  I.e., their copy of MSWord is
corrupt, when they double click on one of their documents word pops
open a dialog box with an error message.  The problem report: "my TPS
report from 2013 will not open".

Given enough of this style, the ones handling the other end develop a
'form' to help 'remind' the users of the critical info they need to
supply, such as:

Your Name: ______
Your Department: _____
Your Phone No: ______
Application: _____
Version of application: ______
OS: _______
Version of OS: _______
Is an error message shown? O-Yes O-No
If Yes: What are the contents of the error message:

Describe the steps you take that cause the issue:

etc.

If you've ever worked anywhere where you've been exposed to end user
reports of issues with software/computers, it is amazing the number of
users who's reports begin as variants of:

  "It does not work."

As if the receiver is omnipient and knows exactly what _it_ is by
telepathy.

> Fast forward to the web, a medium perfectly suited to implementing
> this strategy. The alternative would be that a human being, literate,
> qualified to deal with the subject (triage, fwd appropriately, etc.)
> has to actually *read* prose composed by JRP, make sense of it and
> take appropriate action (reply, fix something, entrain person with
> suitable authority, etc.) Bad enough if JRP's prose is lucid, onerous
> if it's typical.

Some portion of it is an attempt, right or wrong, to reduce the time
spent by the qualified, literate, human in their task of triage or
forwarding.  If nearly every report begins with "It does not work."
(and there are plural "its" which might not be working), then that
qualified human spends a huge amount of time just interacting with the
reporter to get essential info (which "it" is not working?, ok, now,
where within "it" are you when it does not work?, ok, now, what version
of "it" do you have installed?, ok, where are you located?, etc.).  The
_form_ appears to attempt to get those relatively essential facts up
front, so the qualified human can spend less time simply gathering the
same facts each time, and more time triaging/forwarding.

> The answer is: If the people don't want to talk to you, don't want to
> enter into a dialog, do without them.

Not always an option.  Esp. when one happens to be in an environment
providing end user support.

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#10007

Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: 
> 
> If you've ever worked anywhere where you've been exposed to end user
> reports of issues with software/computers...

Haven't done that as employment, just for friends and relatives. 

> ...it is amazing the number of users who's reports begin as variants
> of:
> 
>   "It does not work."

But I spent several years as an auto mechanic where a similar popular
ignorance of cars was evinced in similar terms.  "It won't start and
yes, I'm *sure* I'm not out of gas." (Always take gas can on such a
call. :-)

>> The answer is: If the people don't want to talk to you, don't want to
>> enter into a dialog, do without them.
> 
> Not always an option.  Esp. when one happens to be in an environment
> providing end user support.

Agreed.  The OP was, IIRC, talking about web forms in general.  My
rant was just to call attention to the possible existence of an "I
won't eat that" option.  Geeks of a certain bent (such as I perhaps
am) are often suckered into onerously fixing or working-around broken
stuff to no really justifiable end.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#10008

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

> Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

> > Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: 
> > 
> > If you've ever worked anywhere where you've been exposed to end user
> > reports of issues with software/computers...

> Haven't done that as employment, just for friends and relatives. 

> > ...it is amazing the number of users who's reports begin as variants
> > of:
> > 
> >   "It does not work."

> But I spent several years as an auto mechanic where a similar popular
> ignorance of cars was evinced in similar terms.  "It won't start and
> yes, I'm *sure* I'm not out of gas." (Always take gas can on such a
> call. :-)

Yes, very very similar responses.  Sometimes "It does not work." is the
*entire* report.  Note that this would be in an environment where there
are at least seven different independent *its* on the users desktop
machine that might not be working for them.

> >> The answer is: If the people don't want to talk to you, don't want to
> >> enter into a dialog, do without them.
> > 
> > Not always an option.  Esp. when one happens to be in an environment
> > providing end user support.

> Agreed.  The OP was, IIRC, talking about web forms in general.  My
> rant was just to call attention to the possible existence of an "I
> won't eat that" option.  Geeks of a certain bent (such as I perhaps
> am) are often suckered into onerously fixing or working-around broken
> stuff to no really justifiable end.

True, although it did began as a rant about "web form with 'comment'
box with a character length limit on the comment box much too short to
adequately describe much of anything about the issue".

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#10009

On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, Rich wrote:

> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:
>
>>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>>
>>> If you've ever worked anywhere where you've been exposed to end user
>>> reports of issues with software/computers...
>
>> Haven't done that as employment, just for friends and relatives.
>
>>> ...it is amazing the number of users who's reports begin as variants
>>> of:
>>>
>>>   "It does not work."
>
>> But I spent several years as an auto mechanic where a similar popular
>> ignorance of cars was evinced in similar terms.  "It won't start and
>> yes, I'm *sure* I'm not out of gas." (Always take gas can on such a
>> call. :-)
>
> Yes, very very similar responses.  Sometimes "It does not work." is the
> *entire* report.  Note that this would be in an environment where there
> are at least seven different independent *its* on the users desktop
> machine that might not be working for them.
>
>>>> The answer is: If the people don't want to talk to you, don't want to
>>>> enter into a dialog, do without them.
>>>
>>> Not always an option.  Esp. when one happens to be in an environment
>>> providing end user support.
>
>> Agreed.  The OP was, IIRC, talking about web forms in general.  My
>> rant was just to call attention to the possible existence of an "I
>> won't eat that" option.  Geeks of a certain bent (such as I perhaps
>> am) are often suckered into onerously fixing or working-around broken
>> stuff to no really justifiable end.
>
> True, although it did began as a rant about "web form with 'comment'
> box with a character length limit on the comment box much too short to
> adequately describe much of anything about the issue".
>
Then there's the hybrid, which maybe makes the latter acceptable.

Lots of questions, then finally "would you like to add anything" and a box 
for adding comments.  I suppose in that case the short box is okay, but 
maybe you just randomly checking the boxes before that, expecting to fill 
out the comment to supply what you needed to convey.

   Michael

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#10185

On 2016-01-15, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:
>
>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote: 
>> 
>> If you've ever worked anywhere where you've been exposed to end user
>> reports of issues with software/computers...
>
> Haven't done that as employment, just for friends and relatives. 
>
>> ...it is amazing the number of users who's reports begin as variants
>> of:
>> 
>>   "It does not work."
>
> But I spent several years as an auto mechanic where a similar popular
> ignorance of cars was evinced in similar terms.  "It won't start and
> yes, I'm *sure* I'm not out of gas." (Always take gas can on such a
> call. :-)

Moving back to things electrical and the question of "Is it plugged
in?", a neat method I came across recently was to ask the customer
to unplug the equipment and plug it in again. :-)

-- 
An invention needs to make sense in the world in which it's finished,
not the world in which it's started.                  -- Ray Kurzweil

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#10193

In article <uqornc-e4e1.ln1@news.chingola.ch>,
Paul Sture  <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
>Moving back to things electrical and the question of "Is it plugged
>in?", a neat method I came across recently was to ask the customer
>to unplug the equipment and plug it in again. :-)

Roy Trenneman would be proud. :-)

  _/_
 / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/           Top-posting!
 \_^_/                              >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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#10043

On 2016-01-14, Bill Evans <wje@acm.org> wrote:
> "Contact us by e-mail" means filling out a web form, without
> also providing a real-life e-mail address, which I would
> have used instead to send something and keep a copy of it
> without having to do a screen shot.

Where a form involves vertical scrolling it is a real pain to piece
together multiple screen shots.

I have adopted the practice of using Print to PDF instead.

That _usually_ means that the result is saved as text which I can later
quote or search on.  

-- 
An invention needs to make sense in the world in which it's finished,
not the world in which it's started.                  -- Ray Kurzweil

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#9990

On 2016-01-14, Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:

[31 lines snipped]

> Demand that (say) a credit card number be inserted without spaces, but 
> nowhere actually mention that fact. Then reject it if spaces are 
> included, saying "re-enter without spaces" instead of just fixing it. 
> Dates and telephone numbers ditto.

This one drives me potty.

s/ +//g;

-- 
Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 14th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3182
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#9994

Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2016-01-14, Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:

> [31 lines snipped]

> > Demand that (say) a credit card number be inserted without spaces, but 
> > nowhere actually mention that fact. Then reject it if spaces are 
> > included, saying "re-enter without spaces" instead of just fixing it. 
> > Dates and telephone numbers ditto.

> This one drives me potty.

> s/ +//g;

Yup, I'm the same way.  This has to be either utterly incompetent
developers, or a development method where the devs can *only* do what
the PM says, and the PM is the incompetent one who does not understand
how trivial it is for a computer to remove spaces.

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