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70 years ago today

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  70 years ago today Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-06 13:20 +0000
    Re: 70 years ago today Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> - 2014-06-06 16:26 +0200
      Re: 70 years ago today Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-06-06 14:31 +0000
        Re: 70 years ago today Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-06 16:59 +0100
      Re: 70 years ago today Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-06 16:45 +0000
      Re: 70 years ago today Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-06 18:13 +0100
        Re: 70 years ago today Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2014-06-06 17:20 +0000
        Re: 70 years ago today scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2014-06-06 18:10 +0000
        Re: 70 years ago today Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> - 2014-06-06 22:26 +0200
          Re: 70 years ago today Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-06-06 21:15 +0000
            Re: 70 years ago today Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> - 2014-06-06 23:40 +0200
              Re: 70 years ago today Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-06-07 17:53 +0000
              Re: 70 years ago today Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> - 2014-06-07 23:27 +0000
                Re: 70 years ago today Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> - 2014-06-08 18:30 +0200
                  Re: 70 years ago today David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2014-06-08 12:38 -0700
                    Re: 70 years ago today Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> - 2014-06-08 21:55 +0200
                      Re: 70 years ago today Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-08 23:46 +0100
                  Re: 70 years ago today Will Honea <whonea@whonea.net> - 2014-06-08 19:42 -0600
                    Re: 70 years ago today Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-09 10:42 +0100
                      Re: 70 years ago today Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2014-06-09 14:19 -0500
          Re: 70 years ago today Philip Shaw <jnufcvyvuc@tznvy.pbz> - 2014-06-10 14:47 +0000
      Re: 70 years ago today greymausg@mail.com - 2014-06-06 17:59 +0000
        Re: 70 years ago today Hils <hils@saynotospam.net> - 2014-06-07 18:58 +0100
          Re: 70 years ago today Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> - 2014-06-08 00:15 +0200
          Re: 70 years ago today Jon Lane <jon@dorsal.tk> - 2014-06-25 17:15 +0000
    Re: 70 years ago today MG <marcogbNO@SPAMxs4all.nl> - 2014-06-07 15:16 +0200
    Re: 70 years ago today Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2014-06-07 18:46 +0200
    Re: 70 years ago today hlexa@hotmail.com (Axel Hammerschmidt) - 2014-06-08 20:13 +0200
    Re: 70 years ago today RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-06-09 10:16 +0000
      Re: 70 years ago today MG <marcogbNO@SPAMxs4all.nl> - 2014-06-12 13:15 +0200
        Re: 70 years ago today Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-12 15:07 +0100
          Re: 70 years ago today MG <marcogbNO@SPAMxs4all.nl> - 2014-06-12 23:14 +0200
            Re: 70 years ago today Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-06-12 22:41 +0100

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#3527 — 70 years ago today

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandy_landings

  "The Normandy landings, codenamed Operation Neptune, were the landing
   operations on 6 June 1944 (termed D-Day) of the Allied invasion of
   Normandy in Operation Overlord during World War II. The largest
   seaborne invasion in history, the operation began the Allied
   invasion of German-occupied western Europe, led to the restoration
   of the French Republic, and contributed to an Allied victory in the
   war. "

   ...

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#3528

Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

> "The Normandy landings, codenamed Operation Neptune,
> were the landing operations on 6 June 1944 (termed
> D-Day) of the Allied invasion of Normandy in
> Operation Overlord during World War II. The largest
> seaborne invasion in history, the operation began the
> Allied invasion of German-occupied western Europe,
> led to the restoration of the French Republic, and
> contributed to an Allied victory in the war."

Do you know if they (or the Germans) used any
technology that borders to today's IT and computers?
Though it would in any case be a minor-minor-minor
impact on the battlefield events, it could be
interesting to know nonetheless.

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

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#3529

On 2014-06-06, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:
> Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:
>
>> "The Normandy landings, codenamed Operation Neptune,
>> were the landing operations on 6 June 1944 (termed
>> D-Day) of the Allied invasion of Normandy in
>> Operation Overlord during World War II. The largest
>> seaborne invasion in history, the operation began the
>> Allied invasion of German-occupied western Europe,
>> led to the restoration of the French Republic, and
>> contributed to an Allied victory in the war."
>
> Do you know if they (or the Germans) used any
> technology that borders to today's IT and computers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bletchley_Park

-- 
Today is Boomtime, the 11th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3180
"I do not believe in revealed religion — I will have nothing to do with your
immortality; we are miserable enough in this life, without speculating on
another." Lord Byron, 1778-1824, letter to Rev. Francis Hodgson, 1811

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#3530

In article <bve1llF889pU1@mid.individual.net>, Huge
<Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2014-06-06, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:
> > Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:
> >
> >> "The Normandy landings, codenamed Operation Neptune,
> >> were the landing operations on 6 June 1944 (termed
> >> D-Day) of the Allied invasion of Normandy in
> >> Operation Overlord during World War II. The largest
> >> seaborne invasion in history, the operation began the
> >> Allied invasion of German-occupied western Europe,
> >> led to the restoration of the French Republic, and
> >> contributed to an Allied victory in the war."
> >
> > Do you know if they (or the Germans) used any
> > technology that borders to today's IT and computers?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bletchley_Park

And in particular:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer

-- 
"People don't buy Microsoft for quality, they buy it for compatibility
with what Bob in accounting bought last year. Trace it back - they buy
Microsoft because the IBM Selectric didn't suck much" - P Seebach, afc

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#3531

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:
> Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

> > "The Normandy landings, codenamed Operation Neptune,
> > were the landing operations on 6 June 1944 (termed
> > D-Day) of the Allied invasion of Normandy in
> > Operation Overlord during World War II. The largest
> > seaborne invasion in history, the operation began the
> > Allied invasion of German-occupied western Europe,
> > led to the restoration of the French Republic, and
> > contributed to an Allied victory in the war."

> Do you know if they (or the Germans) used any
> technology that borders to today's IT and computers?
> Though it would in any case be a minor-minor-minor
> impact on the battlefield events, it could be
> interesting to know nonetheless.

What about the Enigma machine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine

Or Bletchley Park in the UK during the war:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bletchley_Park

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#3532

In article <87mwdq3yiq.fsf@debian.uxu>, Emanuel Berg
<embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:

> Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:
> 
> > "The Normandy landings, codenamed Operation Neptune,
> > were the landing operations on 6 June 1944 (termed
> > D-Day) of the Allied invasion of Normandy in
> > Operation Overlord during World War II. The largest
> > seaborne invasion in history, the operation began the
> > Allied invasion of German-occupied western Europe,
> > led to the restoration of the French Republic, and
> > contributed to an Allied victory in the war."
> 
> Do you know if they (or the Germans) used any
> technology that borders to today's IT and computers?
> Though it would in any case be a minor-minor-minor
> impact on the battlefield events, it could be
> interesting to know nonetheless.

Why d'ye think it would be minor? If you can read the other side's
codes, and they don't know it, it can make a huge difference.

-- 
"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#3533

Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> In article <87mwdq3yiq.fsf@debian.uxu>, Emanuel Berg
> <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:

> > Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:
> > 
> > > "The Normandy landings, codenamed Operation Neptune,
> > > were the landing operations on 6 June 1944 (termed
> > > D-Day) of the Allied invasion of Normandy in
> > > Operation Overlord during World War II. The largest
> > > seaborne invasion in history, the operation began the
> > > Allied invasion of German-occupied western Europe,
> > > led to the restoration of the French Republic, and
> > > contributed to an Allied victory in the war."
> > 
> > Do you know if they (or the Germans) used any
> > technology that borders to today's IT and computers?
> > Though it would in any case be a minor-minor-minor
> > impact on the battlefield events, it could be
> > interesting to know nonetheless.

> Why d'ye think it would be minor? If you can read the other side's
> codes, and they don't know it, it can make a huge difference.

In fact, in the case of Enigma, history claims it made a huge
difference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma

  "Cryptanalysis of the Enigma enabled the western Allies in World War
   II to read substantial amounts of secret Morse-coded radio
   communications of the Axis powers that had been enciphered using
   Enigma machines. This yielded military intelligence which, along
   with that from other decrypted Axis radio and teleprinter
   transmissions, was given the codename Ultra. This was considered by
   western Supreme Allied Commander Dwight D. Eisenhower to have been
   "decisive" to the Allied victory.[1]"

   ...

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#3535

In article <060620141813583019%timstreater@greenbee.net>,
Tim Streater  <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>In article <87mwdq3yiq.fsf@debian.uxu>, Emanuel Berg
><embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:
>> Do you know if they (or the Germans) used any
>> technology that borders to today's IT and computers?
>> Though it would in any case be a minor-minor-minor
>> impact on the battlefield events, it could be
>> interesting to know nonetheless.
>
>Why d'ye think it would be minor? If you can read the other side's
>codes, and they don't know it, it can make a huge difference.

Speaking of WWII, codes, and codebreaking, the last of the codetalkers
passed away just two days ago.  It took a few tries to find a link without
some infernal auto-playing video, but here you go:

http://time.com/2823322/navajo-code-talkers/

Using the words of an Indian language as metaphor for military operations
was clever.  To some extent, I suppose it was security through obscurity,
but it was undeniably effective: the Japanese never cracked it.

  _/_
 / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/            Top-posting!
 \_^_/                              >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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#3536

Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:

> Why d'ye think it would be minor? If you can read the
> other side's codes, and they don't know it, it can
> make a huge difference.

It can, but it didn't. The war was decided on the
eastern front where the Red Army fought year-in,
year-out, with guns, bodies and brains as their primary
assets.

But I'm not a war historian so this will be my last
post on this subject. But I'll continue to read, of
course.

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

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#3538

On 2014-06-06, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:
> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:
>
>> Why d'ye think it would be minor? If you can read the
>> other side's codes, and they don't know it, it can
>> make a huge difference.
>
> It can, but it didn't. 

Except that it did.

> But I'm not a war historian 

Apparently.


-- 
Today is Boomtime, the 11th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3180
"I do not believe in revealed religion — I will have nothing to do with your
immortality; we are miserable enough in this life, without speculating on
another." Lord Byron, 1778-1824, letter to Rev. Francis Hodgson, 1811

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#3539

Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:

>>> Why d'ye think it would be minor? If you can read
>>> the other side's codes, and they don't know it, it
>>> can make a huge difference.
>> It can, but it didn't.
>
> Except that it did.

I you think a computer -- in the 40s -- in a war in
which millions lost their lives in warfare that had
nothing to do with computers whatsoever, that doesn't
deserve any serious discussion.

>> But I'm not a war historian
>
> Apparently.

You are in my Gnus KILL file. Reason: flamer.

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

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#3545

On 2014-06-06, Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:
> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:

>
> You are in my Gnus KILL file.

Imagine my indifference.

-- 
Today is Pungenday, the 12th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3180
"I do not believe in revealed religion — I will have nothing to do with your
immortality; we are miserable enough in this life, without speculating on
another." Lord Byron, 1778-1824, letter to Rev. Francis Hodgson, 1811

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#3549

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 23:40:52 +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:

> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:
> 
>>>> Why d'ye think it would be minor? If you can read the other side's
>>>> codes, and they don't know it, it can make a huge difference.
>>> It can, but it didn't.
>>
>> Except that it did.
> 
> I you think a computer -- in the 40s -- in a war in which millions lost
> their lives in warfare that had nothing to do with computers whatsoever,
> that doesn't deserve any serious discussion.

Then you have no idea. The use of that computer, and the work that went 
with it, saved thousands of lives and materially shortened the war.



-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#3566

Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> writes:

> Then you have no idea. The use of that computer, and
> the work that went with it, saved thousands of lives
> and materially shortened the war.

Why don't you go to a veteran's meeting in Moscow or
Minsk and tell your your tales?

I never said that computers didn't play a role. I said
they could play a minor-minor-minor role. In a war of
that magnitude that isn't small, but big. But it is
still small considering what was truly big.

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

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#3568

On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 18:30:47 +0200 in comp.misc, Emanuel Berg
<embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote,
>I never said that computers didn't play a role. 

Yes, actually, you said "nothing to do with computers whatsoever".

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#3570

David Harmon <source@netcom.com> writes:

>> I never said that computers didn't play a role.
>
> Yes, actually, you said "nothing to do with computers
> whatsoever".

I said: "in a war in which millions lost their lives in
warfare that had nothing to do with computers
whatsoever".

Which is true.

That doesn't mean nobody did marvelous technology at
some lab, and that said technology didn't play a
role. Everything anyone did during the entire war
effort of course played some role, just not close to as
big as many of you seem to think.

Better guns, tanks, airplanes and so on, as well as
the methods to produce, transport and maintain them at
a huge scale, were many, many times as important if
you'd like to discuss how advances in technology
impacted the war.

-- 
underground experts united:
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

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#3577

In article <87ioob5g7v.fsf@debian.uxu>, Emanuel Berg
<embe8573@student.uu.se> wrote:

> David Harmon <source@netcom.com> writes:
> 
> >> I never said that computers didn't play a role.
> >
> > Yes, actually, you said "nothing to do with computers
> > whatsoever".
> 
> I said: "in a war in which millions lost their lives in
> warfare that had nothing to do with computers
> whatsoever".
> 
> Which is true.

You really don't have a clue, do you. D'ye really think that the
near-real-time decryption of a large fraction of German signals traffic
was unimportant? The battle of the Atlantic would certainly have been
lost with that. There would have been no second front at all without
that.

-- 
"The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to
 lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores 
 the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them
 into it in the first place."                             - Douglas Adams

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#3578

Emanuel Berg wrote:

> Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> writes:
> 
>> Then you have no idea. The use of that computer, and
>> the work that went with it, saved thousands of lives
>> and materially shortened the war.
> 
> Why don't you go to a veteran's meeting in Moscow or
> Minsk and tell your your tales?
> 
> I never said that computers didn't play a role. I said
> they could play a minor-minor-minor role. In a war of
> that magnitude that isn't small, but big. But it is
> still small considering what was truly big.
>

While it sounds trivial, the original purpose of the electronic "computer" 
was to replace the human computers calculating updated artillery trajectory 
tables.  That mundane effort resulted in substantially more accurate and 
effective fire and contributed considerably to resulting casualties.  Not 
all effects are immediately visible.
 
-- 
Will Honea

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#3583

In article <Oh8lv.3054150$g45.1966995@fx10.iad>, Will Honea
<whonea@whonea.net> wrote:

> Emanuel Berg wrote:
> 
> > Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> writes:
> > 
> >> Then you have no idea. The use of that computer, and
> >> the work that went with it, saved thousands of lives
> >> and materially shortened the war.
> > 
> > Why don't you go to a veteran's meeting in Moscow or
> > Minsk and tell your your tales?
> > 
> > I never said that computers didn't play a role. I said
> > they could play a minor-minor-minor role. In a war of
> > that magnitude that isn't small, but big. But it is
> > still small considering what was truly big.
> 
> While it sounds trivial, the original purpose of the electronic "computer" 
> was to replace the human computers calculating updated artillery trajectory 
> tables.  That mundane effort resulted in substantially more accurate and 
> effective fire and contributed considerably to resulting casualties.  Not 
> all effects are immediately visible.

And analogue computers were part of the radar controlled guns that shot
down V1 cruise missiles.

-- 
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf

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#3590

On 6/9/2014 4:42 AM, Tim Streater wrote:
> In article <Oh8lv.3054150$g45.1966995@fx10.iad>, Will Honea
> <whonea@whonea.net> wrote:
> 
>> Emanuel Berg wrote:
>>
>> > Bob Eager <news0002@eager.cx> writes:
>> > >> Then you have no idea. The use of that computer, and
>> >> the work that went with it, saved thousands of lives
>> >> and materially shortened the war.
>> > > Why don't you go to a veteran's meeting in Moscow or
>> > Minsk and tell your your tales?
>> > > I never said that computers didn't play a role. I said
>> > they could play a minor-minor-minor role. In a war of
>> > that magnitude that isn't small, but big. But it is
>> > still small considering what was truly big.
>>
>> While it sounds trivial, the original purpose of the electronic
>> "computer" was to replace the human computers calculating updated
>> artillery trajectory tables.  That mundane effort resulted in
>> substantially more accurate and effective fire and contributed
>> considerably to resulting casualties.  Not all effects are
>> immediately visible.
> 
> And analogue computers were part of the radar controlled guns that shot
> down V1 cruise missiles.
> 
Not to mention the fire control system of probably every large ship on
any side, bombsights, and larger antiaircraft batteries.

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