Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.misc > #17664 > unrolled thread

email and time to think

Back to article view | Back to comp.misc

Contents

  email and time to think RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2019-03-28 11:31 -0400
    Re: email and time to think Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2019-03-28 15:33 +0000
      Re: email and time to think Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2019-03-28 20:26 +0000
        Re: email and time to think RS Wood <rswood@therandymon.com> - 2019-03-28 21:27 -0400
          Re: email and time to think Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2019-03-29 03:17 -0300
            Re: email and time to think Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> - 2019-03-29 10:05 +0000
              Re: email and time to think Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2019-03-29 16:46 -0300
                Re: email and time to think RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2019-03-29 21:49 -0400
                  Re: email and time to think Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2019-03-31 17:27 -0300
            Re: email and time to think Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2019-03-29 20:20 +0000
            Re: email and time to think Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-03-29 21:17 +0000
              Re: email and time to think scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2019-04-01 16:28 +0000
                Re: email and time to think Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-04-02 01:29 +0000
                  Re: email and time to think RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2019-04-02 21:00 -0400
                    Re: email and time to think Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-04-03 14:33 +0000
                      email threading Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2019-04-03 16:00 +0000
                        Re: email threading Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2019-04-03 16:59 +0000
                          Re: email threading scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2019-04-05 16:26 +0000
                            Re: email threading RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2019-04-05 21:55 -0400
                          Re: email threading Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2019-04-07 05:15 +0000
                            Re: email threading Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2019-04-08 01:30 +0000
                          Re: email threading Pabst Blue Ribbon <pabst@blue.ribbon> - 2019-04-10 14:18 +0000
                        Re: email threading Dmitry Alexandrov <321942@gmail.com> - 2019-04-11 04:12 +0300
          Re: email and time to think Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-03-29 21:11 +0000
            Re: email and time to think Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2019-03-31 15:32 +0100
    Re: email and time to think Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2019-03-29 06:36 +0000
    Re: email and time to think visiblink <visiblink@mail.invalid> - 2019-03-29 19:56 -0700
    Re: email and time to think Dostoevsky <dosdoevsky@protonmail.com> - 2019-03-29 23:35 -0500

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

#17787 — Re: email threading

In comp.misc, Ivan Shmakov  <ivan@siamics.net> wrote:
> 	Back when I've considered Trn some 15 years ago, my chief issue
> 	was its lack of MIME support.  Which is to say, I was expecting
> 	the NUA to convert whatever encoding used in the article to the
> 	one I use on my terminal for incoming messages; and at least to
> 	properly declare the one I use for outgoing ones.

Mime support exists but is slightly sucky in trn 4. Specifically it does
most parts of mime but makes zero effort to convert specified charset
into desired charset. And there are a few bugs that bite any multibyte
character encoding (namely UTF-8). 

Declaring any headers you want is a simple matter of configuration.
Enforcing that the headers are accurate is not in the code, I've
modified my local version to warn on inaccurate use of "charset=UTF-8"
or on posting without that for UTF-8 content.

I live with the other bugs, but if you *need* that, trn4 won't be fun.

> 	Of course, as I have since embraced monoculturalism and largely
> 	ceased to participate in non-English Internet fora, I may as
> 	well give it another try.

This patch of mine makes UTF-8 display work in article bodies, headers
still have issues:

    --- trn-4.0-test77/art.c.orig   2010-09-02 02:12:26.000000000 -0400
    +++ trn-4.0-test77/art.c        2018-03-01 20:15:59.000000000 -0500
    @ -468,7 +468,7 @@
                            outpos += 2;
                        }
                        else {              /* other control char */
    -                       if (dont_filter_control) {
    +                       if (dont_filter_control || (*bufptr & 0x80)) {
                                if (outputok)
                                    putchar(*bufptr);
                                outpos++;

> 	A minor point is that with Emacs, I can alter the Gnus source and
> 	effect the changes immediately -- without even restarting Gnus
> 	proper (much less Emacs as a whole), which tends to make hacking
> 	a lot more fun (than going through the build-restart loop.)

I find dental work more pleasant than Emacs. Hacking C, even if a
recompile is needed, is way more my style.

The big issue, once you start diving into trn code, is how much of it is
rn code that is highly optimized for fast reading on slow network
connections. So, say, the code reads line at a time off of the NNTP
wire, decodes base64 in three (source) character blocks and displays
that applying line wrapping as needed. A UTF-8 state machine could be
shoe-horned in, for the simple case of wrapping UTF-8 lines correctly,
but the code described is already in six functions across three source
files already. And then if input is not UTF-8 but output output is, or
vice-versa, that's more code and more complicated.

The article selection stuff is worse vis-a-vis UTF-8 because of all of
the English-centric tricks it applies to provide nice shortening of
names and subjects that don't fit the column count available.

>  > The code to do this is in wumpus.c, a nod to early computer gaming.
> 	A version of the game is still available in modern distributions,

It might be there, but that doesn't mean people use (play) it. I think
for most people only fortune is a game they use, for me I find factor to
be most handy.

> FSF associate member #7257  http://am-1.org/~ivan/

:r! /usr/games/factor 7257
7257: 3 41 59

Elijah
------
but for all it's faults, trn is really easy to port to a new unix-like system

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#17796 — Re: email threading

Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:
> In comp.misc, Ivan Shmakov  <ivan@siamics.net> wrote:
>> Email uses In-Reply-To: header in place of Usenet's References:,
>> albeit that only holds the Message-ID: of the "parent" article.
>> References: typically provides a short(ish) history of ancestors
>> for a given message, but I don't think I've ever seen a newsreader
>> that'd make use of anything but the last entry in the list.
> 
> Try trn sometime. It can show you, eg, when there are two messages in
> between missing and a subject change with a diagram like:
> 
>        (1)+-( )-( )-[2]
>           |-(1)
> 	  \-(1)-[3]
>        -<1> 

NewsTap (mobile client for Apple devices) have same feature. I rarely use
it though.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#17798 — Re: email threading

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> wrote:
> 	Email uses In-Reply-To: header in place of Usenet's References:, albeit that only holds the Message-ID: of the "parent" article.

Good mail-useragents actually maintain ‘References’ header along with ‘In-Reply-To’.

> 	References: typically provides a short(ish) history of ancestors for a given message, but I don't think I've ever seen a newsreader that'd make use of anything but the last entry in the list.

Haven’t ever seen such a newsreader _besides_ Gnus, you mean?

> 	No parsing of human-readable Subject: prefixes is (thankfully) necessary for email threading.

Not normally necessary, yet sometimes is also useful (and Gnus is capable of doing that too).

> 	(So long as the MUAs in question aren't broken in that regard, that is.)

MUA is not the only thing that might be broken.  Presumably, Mailman 2 is the most prominent example: it mangles message ids when gatewaying mail to NNTP: look at the hell that is going on at mozilla.* groups: half on the people is subscribed by mail, another half — by NNTP, so forget about proper threading.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#17686

RS Wood <rswood@therandymon.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 20:26:43 -0000 (UTC)
> Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Me too! I had email notification turned off, I'd periodically check
>> the tray to see if I had any new mail. It always amazed me that anyone
>> could work with new emails popping open over whatever they were
>> working on.
>> 
> 
> We can't, it's a nightmare. And now if people don't get an email
> response quickly enough they ... or call,

The worst offenders there were the folks who, upon pressing "send" in 
their email client, immediately would dial the phone to ask "did you 
get the email I just sent you"....

They completely missed the point of the asynchronous nature of email.  
I don't have to be time synchronized with you, yet we can both 
accomplish a shared task.


> I had some technical writing to do today and was forced to go home 
> and unplug the ethernet cable to be granted the solitude to actually 
> think/write.

I've done the same with the phone before.  Either "off hook" (with the 
handset disconnected so as not to hear the "bleep bleep" of the "off 
hook too long without dialing" alarm), or more recently at work with 
the more modern phones the "call forward all to voicemail" option.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#17712

Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:
> The worst offenders there were the folks who, upon pressing "send" in 
> their email client, immediately would dial the phone to ask "did you 
> get the email I just sent you"....
>
> They completely missed the point of the asynchronous nature of email.  
> I don't have to be time synchronized with you, yet we can both 
> accomplish a shared task.

Variant: print out an email they’ve received and come over and talk to
you about it.

Thankfully not something I’ve experienced this century. (I do have a lot
of people pitch up and talk to me at work, but they’re generally
sensible questions.)

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#17677

RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> Came across a link to this service, pony:
> https://www.pony.gg/
> 
> They deliver your email once a day, ending the constant barrage of
> interrupting messages that impede deep concentration at work.  The
> modern office, in my case at least and it's true of everyone else I
> know although I suspect most of Usenet is retired now or working from
> home, a neverending cascade of email, phone calls, skype,
> skype-for-biz, and now text messages and whatsapp notifications (each
> interrupting the previous).  Tough staying focused.
> 
> In hindsight, POP3 permitted a better lifestyle: connect, download
> mail, deal with it, get back to work.  Polling email mechanisms mean
> there's never a break.  I'd briefly considered a system where
> sendmail/postfix deliver twice a day - 8AM and 3PM, leaving the rest of
> the day to get stuff done.  Pros told me my employees would hate it.
> But they also hate the never ending barrage, too.
> 
> Always-On is Always No Fun.
> 
> I do like Pony's tag line: "Use Pony for anything that isn't urgent.
> Which is basically everything."
> 

I de-Googled and switched everything to my sdf account, and I ssh in
manually and run the mail program. The only problem is that the sdf mail
system sometimes takes a while to get the mail and links or codes which are
only valid for 10 minutes like some Amazon and bank security confirmations
don’t make it in time. But my bank will call with a pin and Amazon is
pretty good about phone contact too.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#17697

On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 11:31:09 -0400
RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:

> Came across a link to this service, pony:
> https://www.pony.gg/
> 
> They deliver your email once a day, ending the constant barrage of
> interrupting messages that impede deep concentration at work.  The
> modern office, in my case at least and it's true of everyone else I
> know although I suspect most of Usenet is retired now or working from
> home, a neverending cascade of email, phone calls, skype,
> skype-for-biz, and now text messages and whatsapp notifications (each
> interrupting the previous).  Tough staying focused.
> 
> In hindsight, POP3 permitted a better lifestyle: connect, download
> mail, deal with it, get back to work.  Polling email mechanisms mean
> there's never a break.  I'd briefly considered a system where
> sendmail/postfix deliver twice a day - 8AM and 3PM, leaving the rest
> of the day to get stuff done.  Pros told me my employees would hate
> it. But they also hate the never ending barrage, too.
> 
> Always-On is Always No Fun.
> 
> I do like Pony's tag line: "Use Pony for anything that isn't urgent.
> Which is basically everything."
> 

I totally do not mean this post to come across negatively in any way. I
do this already at work. My policy for the last few years has been to
work all day and check my email at 4 pm. I'm please to report that no
one has ever died as a result. If people need this app to accomplish
the same end, I think it's a great thing. You get so much more done.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#17702

As a high school student this sort of behavior is completely ingrained 
in everything. From email to the 10 or so different 
chat/email/communication providers people use, everything is expected 
to be instant. It basically makes life miserable unless you have the 
self-control to turn off notifications and habitually check once a day 
or so.

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Page 2 of 2 — ← Prev page 1 [2]

Back to top | Article view | comp.misc

csiph-web