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Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT

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  Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-05-12 12:14 +0000
    Re: Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-12 16:03 +0300
      Re: Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-05-12 14:56 +0000
        Re: Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-12 19:30 +0300
          Re: Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT Mike Easter <MikeE@ster.invalid> - 2014-05-12 09:44 -0700
            Re: Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE,   and QT Mike Easter <MikeE@ster.invalid> - 2014-05-12 10:07 -0700
              Re: Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-12 20:42 +0300
                Re: Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT Rich <rich@example.com> - 2014-05-12 21:01 +0000
                  Re: Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-13 00:50 +0300
                    Re: Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT Rich <rich@example.com> - 2014-05-13 11:52 +0000
    Re: Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT Shadow <Sh@dow.br> - 2014-05-12 12:41 -0300
    Re: Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT Mike Easter <MikeE@ster.invalid> - 2014-05-12 08:53 -0700

#2754 — Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT

From the «only if it radically re-imagines my desktop experience, goddammit» department:
Title: The next generation of the lightweight desktop environment
Author: Thom Holwerda
Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 18:24:07 -0400
Link: http://osnews.com/story/27717/The_next_generation_of_the_lightweight_desktop_environment

LXQt is the Qt port and the upcoming version of LXDE, the Lightweight Desktop
Environment. It is the product of the merge between the LXDE-Qt and the
Razor-qt projects: A lightweight, modular, blazing-fast and user-friendly
desktop environment. LXQt 0.7.0 brings you a fast and stable desktop
environment, already usable in production desktop machines. It will not get
in your way. It will not hang or slow down your system. It is focused on
being a Classic Desktop with a modern Look Feel. Already available on most
mainstream distributions and with partial FreeBSD support. This is exactly
what I've been wanting in this department: a straightforward, no-nonsense Qt
desktop environment that doesn't shove touch nonsense in my face and, doesn't
try to impose upon me a very specific way of working, and doesn't try to be
everything to all people at all times.

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#2756

RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com>:

> Author: Thom Holwerda
> [...]
> This is exactly what I've been wanting in this department

s/wanting/fearing/


Marko

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#2759

On Mon, 12 May 2014 16:03:17 +0300
Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:

> RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com>:
> 
> > Author: Thom Holwerda
> > [...]
> > This is exactly what I've been wanting in this department
> 
> s/wanting/fearing/
> 
> 
> Marko

Is your concern QT?  Or the fracturing of the code base into two
projects?  Or tampering with a project you think is already good?  Or
something else?

After some of the comments on this newsgroup I went back and installed
LXDE as my desktop on a new SUSE install, and am remembering again what
a good desktop it is.  I'm hardpressed to find anything I'm
"missing" (and certainly not heavy-weight stuff like KDE4's stupid
"Activities" or any recent Gnome abominations).  In fact, it reminds me
of KDE3, which I loved.  All I really need is a pretty picture in the
background, something that lets me launch apps from a keystroke like
Alt-F2 or equivalent (these days I usually prefer Win-r actually), a
windowing system, and a file manager.  The rest of the desktop as
currently defined can kiss my butt.  So LXDE is actually feature
complete as far as I can tell.

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#2762

RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com>:

>> > This is exactly what I've been wanting in this department
>> s/wanting/fearing/
>
> Is your concern QT? Or the fracturing of the code base into two
> projects? Or tampering with a project you think is already good? Or
> something else?

All of the above. I'm an LXDE user and worry about big changes.

I don't know Qt closely, but it seems to me it's more like a platform
than like a library.

I like libraries. I don't like platforms.

Depending on C++ would be worrisome enough, but Qt adds (or at least
used to add) an extra language layer through the metacompiler. Is it
even so that yet further layers have been piled on top for "mobile
computing."

Isn't there even an IDE?

I like IDEs even less than platforms.


Marko

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#2763

Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> I'm an LXDE user and worry about big changes.

LXDE was based on gtk+2 and needed to be migrated to gtk+3.  The 
developers who considered that and the fact that there would be an 
increase in resource usage for either migration to gtk+3 or qt (they 
chose qt4 rather than qt5 while waiting for qt5.1) and that the qt 
transition was a very mild resource increase.

JULY 3, 2013  http://blog.lxde.org/?p=1013

Elsewhere another developer said that qt coding was much preferred to 
gtk+3 who considered it bloated and buggy.


-- 
Mike Easter

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#2764 — Re: Here comes LXQt: merge of two lightweight desktop projects, LXDE, and QT

Mike Easter wrote:
> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>
>> I'm an LXDE user and worry about big changes.
>
> LXDE was based on gtk+2 and needed to be migrated to gtk+3.

This blog article footnote section from 2013 Mar presents the picture 
from the eyes of Hong Jen Yee

http://blog.lxde.org/?p=990 I, however, need to admit that working with 
Qt/C++ is much more pleasant and productive than messing with 
C/GObject/GTK+.  Since GTK+ 3 breaks backward compatibility a lot and it 
becomes more memory hungry and slower, I don't see much advantage of 
GTK+ now.  GTK+ 2 is lighter, but it's no longer true for GTK+ 3. 
Ironically, fixing all of the broken compatibility is even harder than 
porting to Qt in some cases (PCManFM IMO is one of them).  So If someone 
is starting a whole new project and is thinking about what GUI toolkit 
to use, personally I might recommend Qt if you're not targeting Gnome 3.


-- 
Mike Easter

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#2765

Mike Easter <MikeE@ster.invalid>:

> This blog article footnote section from 2013 Mar presents the picture
> from the eyes of Hong Jen Yee
>
> http://blog.lxde.org/?p=990 I, however, need to admit that working
> with Qt/C++ is much more pleasant and productive than messing with
> C/GObject/GTK+.

It's been years since I did any GUI development. Last I checked, though,
the GUI toolkits were barely more evolved than Windows v. 1, GEM and
Motif. You have a fixed set of widgets and you slap them together to
make an application. Hardcoded pixel offsets, widths and heights plague
applications, and there's no methodology for adding new low- or
high-level widgets to the widget set — it's hierarchically flat.

In contrast, TeX thought of hierarchy and flexible offset math in, what,
the seventies?

Example 1: How do I create a label-textbox widget that, when stacked on
top of other label-textbox widgets, lines up nicely? I you hide this
widget in a black box, you can't line up the labels visually nicely. So
you end up not creating a widget for that ubiquitous GUI idiom but you
drop independent labels and textboxes in panels, grids and what not.

Example 2: I have a nice odometer widget. How do I make sure it is
surrounded by the right number of empty pixels to look like it belongs
with the native widgets regardless of the screen resolution or toolkit
design changes?


Marko

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#2767

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> Mike Easter <MikeE@ster.invalid>:

> > This blog article footnote section from 2013 Mar presents the picture
> > from the eyes of Hong Jen Yee
> >
> > http://blog.lxde.org/?p=990 I, however, need to admit that working
> > with Qt/C++ is much more pleasant and productive than messing with
> > C/GObject/GTK+.

> It's been years since I did any GUI development. Last I checked, though,
> the GUI toolkits were barely more evolved than Windows v. 1, GEM and
> Motif. 

You might (if you ever go try any GUI work again) want to take a look
at the Tk toolkit that is the GUI layer for Tcl. 

> You have a fixed set of widgets and you slap them together to
> make an application. Hardcoded pixel offsets, widths and heights plague
> applications, and there's no methodology for adding new low- or
> high-level widgets to the widget set ? it's hierarchically flat.

With Tk, if one wants, one does not even have to concern oneself with
any pixel offsets, widths, or heights, and the toolkit will simply
expand things to fit.  And there are several different ways to add new
widgets, although they may not meet with your definition of
heirarchial.

> Example 1: How do I create a label-textbox widget that, when stacked on
> top of other label-textbox widgets, lines up nicely?

Tcl example (really simplistic, and yes, this is all that is
necessary to get a working GUI):

  labelframe .lf1 -text "A Labeled Textbox #1"
  entry .lf1.en1 
  pack .lf1.en1 -expand true -fill both

  labelframe .lf2 -text "A Labeled Textbox #2"
  entry .lf2.en2
  pack .lf2.en2 -expand true -fill both

  grid .lf1 -sticky news
  grid .lf2 -sticky news

And you get a pair of vertically stacked, labeled text box widgets,
that are equal width and height (i.e., mirrors) of each other.

> Example 2: I have a nice odometer widget. How do I make sure it is
> surrounded by the right number of empty pixels to look like it belongs
> with the native widgets regardless of the screen resolution or toolkit
> design changes?

Assuming you had an "odometer" widget already designed:

  odometer .od1 <further options>
  grid .od1 -sticky news -padx {1m 2m} -pady {3m 4m}

Would surround your odometer widget with 1mm of left side padding, 2mm
of right side padding, 3mm of top padding, and 4mm of bottom padding.

Using measurements instead of pixels produces identical sizes,
independent of screen resolution (assuming your system knows the proper
resolution of your monitor).

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#2769

Rich <rich@example.com>:

> And you get a pair of vertically stacked, labeled text box widgets,
> that are equal width and height (i.e., mirrors) of each other.

Do you mean the text boxes are also equal-width even if the label texts
are not?

> Assuming you had an "odometer" widget already designed:
>
>   odometer .od1 <further options>
>   grid .od1 -sticky news -padx {1m 2m} -pady {3m 4m}
>
> Would surround your odometer widget with 1mm of left side padding, 2mm
> of right side padding, 3mm of top padding, and 4mm of bottom padding.

How do I know 1mm is the right amount for the theme? In TeX, I can use
measurements like 1ex and 1em that produce a height and width that feel
right regardless of the font. How can I say that the odometer should
have as much margin as a push button would?


Marko

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#2771

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> Rich <rich@example.com>:

> > And you get a pair of vertically stacked, labeled text box widgets,
> > that are equal width and height (i.e., mirrors) of each other.

> Do you mean the text boxes are also equal-width even if the label texts
> are not?

Yes.  The grid geometry manager works a lot like the HTML <table>
element, sizing things to match the longest element in a row/column.

This code:

  labelframe .lf1 -text "A Longer Label #1"
  entry .lf1.en1
  pack .lf1.en1 -expand true -fill both

  labelframe .lf2 -text "Short #2"
  entry .lf2.en2
  pack .lf2.en2 -expand true -fill both

  grid .lf1 -sticky news
  grid .lf2 -sticky news

Produces this GUI:

begin 644 t1.png
MB5!.1PT*&@H````-24A$4@```+H```!V"`,```!(^GD,````!&=!34$``+&/
M"_QA!0```G!03%1%``````#-``#.``#/``#0``#1``#2``#3``#4``#5``#6
M``#7``#8``#9``#:``#;``#<``#=``#>``#?``#@``#A``#B``#C``#D``#E
M``#F``#G``#H``#I``#J``#K``#L``#M``#N``#O``#P``#Q``#R``#S``#T
M``#U``#V``#W``#X``#Y``#Z``#[``#\``#^`*```.```0$!`@("`P,#!`0$
M!@8&!P<'"`@("0D)#`P,#0T-#@X.#P\/$!`0$A(2$Q,3%!04%#P4%145%A86
M%Q<7&!@8&AH:&QL;'!P<'1T='AX>'Q\?("`@(2$A(B(B(R,C)B8F)R<G*"@H
M,#`P,3$Q,C(R-#0T-34U-C8V-S<W.#@X.3DY.CHZ.SL[/#P\/3T]/CX^/S\_
M0$!`0T-#1$1$145%1T='2$A(2DI*3$Q,34U-3DY.3T]/45%14U-35%145555
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M=6UB;T9I>"M%;F@@;V8@,C`P.#$R,38@*&EN=&5R:6TA*;#@?($```36241!
M5'C:[=SI?Q-%&`?P1\3*J95;D-LJ-Y@MH04TT`1-A0I1/(J6M$+1*HJB4&U!
M*9ZT0!`\`!6-M])ZTS2A4FUI@O`C^9=\L=EFLLGFV!R[4^=YE69G.]],=R?;
M^>UGR<%MD4-*4VD;%*32]YJ>[C"$GKY7>=0MJ<J1KD%!*GVO@FXH/=69+!DR
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MRC/]:Y?KF\+2'^[]XKD<_A#:]'WOO[<_KK=0J]W>&@+H>'7E8^>!4+/-?H2`
MJ^\^:'OY,D`=SG*F^:]-MK7/]@)TI,KVVA6FF=+![X_CP(E"T$/K?+YU(9;>
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MIIG<Z!3)E4>ZQ^/Q>#S`1_6`^V/6LJD3.%\#4``87`UL^AGH),#U"Q"H!J@[
MX9#XQPE0=+>A9LK&/6?Z-[([>+*L1'HD$HE$@)TG@0\:V5]=&02"E=&?"*@,
M`4$"5ENM*VDE0-?BZ-_5V8BL`$5W&VJFT!_J.[>;W2&2926A`P`"5B(B:R#9
MJ$??4D9]RP758,LO:DY<^O<2R:/>69/0+'J\G-)[P'@TZ>TO`<#>#J:W0VZ?
MKZXM1C^TP^]_FH"C[JXK/SV?0+=_$OJCB0!JZ.EI.)S8[&0+:KOT3_7:]*U>
M`/`^&ALA!%OL]I9@C![<9ZMZ9Q5P]9BKXI'3+)V(")]N655]C.09ICF4V&SW
MN3X7TSQ_]`SKQXU&70;D1F\-=&\_P"?]J+/JU4$^Z8;6L*.?Y:"TZ!'3UW5!
M%W1!%W1!%W1!%W1!%_3_+?VZ^6O8_8/GX:,B&LNE/%2*0(:#&&S8THD_>F"/
MO:+VC`8]R9N?UU5NV/N7*>CU;P1"WIT9T*,Y7/UG`Q?W-YJ"OF8@JE3R.B6_
MZW"6LPOBL1P.Z%]K"OJVEM]DNI+7*?G=+C\SZFP.!YRN-92N)'B!Y@?N?<'/
MY'5*DM0=?\#$<CA\[_PA^QQ.?VDF>``N'GR2R>N4_.Y:/#V6PWF=7^G(X?+X
ME<1>P_2O8?(Z-K\KCXN-Y!SNP_N_->P:1KXQ1J$W>H.];VYC\CHVOUO?!74.
MUU[=5?3++]5=2`K];&W%^J9N)J]C\[OV^Y+G<#103+KZ+B2N+GKC[T+BC2YB
M,$$7"9Y8AQ%T01=T01=T01=T01=T01<)GDCP1()7].52?A^>Q=>3!5DZ9T\6
M%(_G$W1=]%R>\6?,DP55J09_]1^3-<`R*'@()P````=T24U%!]X%#0LA.IBL
.H^(`````245.1*Y"8((`
`
end

And this code:

  label .l1 -text "A Longer Label #1:" -anchor e
  entry .en1

  label .l2 -text "Short #2" -anchor e
  entry .en2

  grid .l1 .en1 -sticky news
  grid .l2 .en2 -sticky news

Produces this GUI:

begin 644 t2.png
MB5!.1PT*&@H````-24A$4@```3````!2"`,```#D;G@D````!&=!34$``+&/
M"_QA!0```G-03%1%``````#-``#.``#/``#0``#1``#2``#3``#4``#5``#6
M``#7``#8``#9``#:``#;``#<``#=``#>``#?``#@``#A``#B``#C``#D``#E
M``#F``#G``#H``#I``#J``#K``#L``#M``#N``#O``#P``#Q``#R``#S``#T
M``#U``#V``#W``#X``#Y``#Z``#[``#\``#]``#^``#_`*```.```0$!`@("
M`P,#!`0$!@8&!P<'"`@("0D)#`P,#0T-#@X.#P\/$!`0$A(2$Q,3%!04%#P4
M%145%A86%Q<7&!@8&AH:&QL;'!P<'1T='AX>'Q\?("`@(2$A(B(B(R,C)B8F
M)R<G*"@H,#`P,3$Q,C(R-#0T-34U-C8V-S<W.#@X.3DY.CHZ.SL[/#P\/3T]
M/CX^/S\_0$!`0T-#1$1$145%1T='2$A(2DI*3$Q,34U-3DY.3T]/45%14U-3
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MYN;F__\`____L)?@)````#UT15AT4V]F='=A<F4`6%8@=F5R<VEO;B`S+C$P
M82UJ=6UB;T9I>"M%;F@@;V8@,C`P.#$R,38@*&EN=&5R:6TA*;#@?($```5!
M241!5'C:[=U]3!ME'`?P[Q/'E$R#UQJ,(>,E86Y39R;/8"#&UZ5Q8Q,%<3-&
MD<S,D9G)=!)!7;:AJ]O$H<(6C?MCF]D+R2)3"^X%.V9U0'I,(VBRZ5B8V6)"
M6O^!:!F<?USOI:77*S4[>KWG:0KT[G<TSR?//?<\OZ<<Q`%6IE*(PZ\3P?FM
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MH;%9(``A`(GRT-RL?FIL#NZZ+6I=M?8P,`;&P!B8UN9>8!$$\`"0S\!B!>/%
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M.@D+IBILX*H_^>YE8"Q;P<`8&`-C8(D)Q@77*3G-%<QD6_J.JZY!)^+0721/
MOH\*_)^Z2I\/XYSLPP!12UW0*0C&81K!^DS@E5<7=)([_>D$RT]XKPFA+OPJ
MR<"F$8SRT5\G#]B[>#NV.D8GT@43EX?,#_;;ERB;=UW!G-67O57A(>8%:[4+
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MGO);07<>'R\JG:&$23I7#FX\9G\@:<#&ZFNQ8UN*"JS]XDH<O',I:/6*M*[^
MU]$^5($C>WFX^RMFM:4]`;JVS*X*WUXR9^Q$8!5HU2H<SGU<"1-USKXBOCLO
M'R!^-2U8CW<=F@L*5`);*K,Q>&`3Z$D;_JW]"%NJ,G&IG,>VYV?#U[05M",]
M_*0;>;\!]*AXF!PF[?UB_OP=FU4'F!SLTP7WXX>!-:H*K?]@)@(;/Q9?41[K
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end


> > Assuming you had an "odometer" widget already designed:
> >
> >   odometer .od1 <further options>
> >   grid .od1 -sticky news -padx {1m 2m} -pady {3m 4m}
> >
> > Would surround your odometer widget with 1mm of left side padding, 2mm
> > of right side padding, 3mm of top padding, and 4mm of bottom padding.

> How do I know 1mm is the right amount for the theme?

Presumably if you drew up the theme, then you'd know because you'd have
picked out the correct values.  If you are asking about a preexisting
theme, then Tk provides quite a powerful introspection capability where
you can query widgets to obtain the values being used for things like
padding or widths and heights, which you can then apply to your own
items to make them match.

> In TeX, I can use measurements like 1ex and 1em that produce a height
> and width that feel right regardless of the font.

The Tk widgets size their own height/witdh by default based upon the
font you've asked them to use.  So if you don't change them from their
defaults, they will size height/width to the fonts (for the width, they
have a default based upon average character width, and you can specify a
different number of characters if you want, but the ultimate width will
still be determined by the font size).  If you leave the defaults
alone, you can also later change the font size (even at runtime), and
all the widgets will resize automatically to the new font size.

> How can I say that the odometer should have as much margin as a push
> button would?

The simplest way would be to query the push button widget, obtain the
margin values it is using, then apply those margin values to your
odometer widget.

An alternate is to use the grid geometry manager to arrange the
widgets, and allow it to even out the width/heights along rows/columns
itself (it can set all widgets in rows/columns to equal heights/widths
respectively if you set it to do so).

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#2760

On Mon, 12 May 2014 12:14:06 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood
<rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:

>a modern Look Feel

	OMG, not another win 8 clone !!!
	[]'s
-- 
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy  - Google 2012

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#2761

RS Wood wrote:

> LXQt is the Qt port and the upcoming version of LXDE, the Lightweight Desktop
> Environment.

There is a released 64bit .iso for the distro siduction.

"The siduction distribution is a desktop-oriented operating system and 
live medium based on the "unstable" branch of Debian GNU/Linux."

http://news.siduction.org/2014/05/release-notes-for-siduction-lxqt-dev-release/ 
  This is clearly labeled as a Dev-Release, so do not trust it, it might 
kill your kittens, although the developers of LXQt flagged it as being 
beta status.


-- 
Mike Easter

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