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Around the world with Unicode

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  Around the world with Unicode RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2017-12-04 13:34 -0500
    Re: Around the world with Unicode Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2017-12-04 21:30 +0000
    Re: Around the world with Unicode Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-12-04 23:53 +0200
      Re: Around the world with Unicode Bruce Horrocks <07.013@scorecrow.com> - 2017-12-05 00:14 +0000
        Re: Around the world with Unicode Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-12-05 09:07 +0200
          Re: Around the world with Unicode Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-12-05 10:58 +0000
            Re: Around the world with Unicode Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-12-05 13:24 +0200
              Re: Around the world with Unicode Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-12-05 12:46 +0000
                Re: Around the world with Unicode Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-12-05 15:28 +0200
                  Re: Around the world with Unicode Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-12-05 18:10 +0000
    Re: Around the world with Unicode Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2017-12-06 03:48 +0000
      Re: Around the world with Unicode Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2017-12-06 02:19 -0400
        Re: Around the world with Unicode Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-12-06 09:31 +0200
        Re: Around the world with Unicode Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-12-06 11:25 +0000
          Re: Around the world with Unicode Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-12-06 15:25 +0200
            Re: Around the world with Unicode "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2017-12-06 18:32 +0000
              Re: Around the world with Unicode Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-12-07 00:22 +0200
                Re: Around the world with Unicode Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2017-12-06 19:57 -0400
            Re: Around the world with Unicode Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-12-06 18:43 +0000
              Re: Around the world with Unicode Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2017-12-06 20:49 +0100
              Re: Around the world with Unicode Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-12-07 00:25 +0200
                Re: Around the world with Unicode scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2017-12-06 22:56 +0000
                Re: Around the world with Unicode Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-12-06 22:57 +0000
            Re: Around the world with Unicode Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2017-12-06 19:48 -0400
              Re: Around the world with Unicode Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-12-07 10:02 +0200
                Re: Around the world with Unicode Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2017-12-07 16:54 +0000
                  Re: Around the world with Unicode Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2017-12-07 14:55 -0400
                Re: Around the world with Unicode Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2017-12-07 14:43 -0400
                  Re: Around the world with Unicode Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-12-07 21:09 +0200
                  Re: Around the world with Unicode The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2017-12-07 11:48 -0800
                    Re: Around the world with Unicode Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2017-12-08 00:43 -0400

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#15098

Rich <rich@example.invalid>:

> Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>> MIME allows for HTML email. No violation there. There are other
>> reasons why HTML mail is usually a bad idea.
>
> The violation is that an HTML email is supposed to be accompanied with
> a text/plain version that contains the information, but as just text.

Sorry, which RFC is that?


Marko

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#15099

In article <87609jpk81.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>,
Marko Rauhamaa  <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>Rich <rich@example.invalid>:
>
>> Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>>> MIME allows for HTML email. No violation there. There are other
>>> reasons why HTML mail is usually a bad idea.
>>
>> The violation is that an HTML email is supposed to be accompanied with
>> a text/plain version that contains the information, but as just text.
>
>Sorry, which RFC is that?

From https://infogalactic.com/info/HTML_email:

"Email software that complies with RFC 2822 is only required to support
plain text, not HTML formatting.  Sending HTML formatted emails can
therefore lead to problems if the recipient's email client does not support
it.  In the worst case, the recipient will see the HTML code instead of the
intended message."

  _/_
 / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/           Top-posting!
 \_^_/                              >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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#15100

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> Rich <rich@example.invalid>:
> 
>> Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>>> MIME allows for HTML email. No violation there. There are other
>>> reasons why HTML mail is usually a bad idea.
>>
>> The violation is that an HTML email is supposed to be accompanied with
>> a text/plain version that contains the information, but as just text.
> 
> Sorry, which RFC is that?

I can't find the reference where I saw that (and google searches seem
to have had all their top listings drowned out by SEO marketers, which
is not helping).

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#15101

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:

> Rich <rich@example.invalid>:
> 
>> FWIW, the mutt email client handles decoding quoted printable (and the
>> other potential mime types) automatically, so with at least it there's
>> no need for extra work (and macros) to convert.
> 
> That's how it should be. I don't know what takes place under the
> hood of my car.

A sorry admission.  Do you know how your kidney works?  Or your heart?
How about your your toaster?  The same sorry state cavalierly advised
by Primo Levi's fatuous "young man":

    ...My ideas as to what takes place behind the screen are vague. At
    first contact, this ignorance of mine humiliated me profoundly; a
    young man rushed in to reassure me and he had guided me; and to
    start with he said to me: "You belong to the austere generation of
    humanists who still insist on wanting to understand the world
    around them. This demand has become absurd. Leave everything to
    habit and your discomfort will disappear. Consider do you think
    you know how the telephone and television work. and yet you use
    them everday. And with the exception of a few learned men how many
    know how their hearts and kidneys work?"  [1]

> Why should any user even *know* what ASCII is, let alone demand it?

For the same sort of reason that imbibers should know what coffee is
and be able to demand it instead of a panoply of coffee-like or
coffee-contaning products with French or Italian names.

> What's so special about ASCII?

Lowest common denominator for conveying English text, understood and
correctly interpreted by virtually all software newer than (just
guessing here) 1975.

From Stephenson's The System of the World, Saturn (Peter Hoxton) &
Daniel Waterhouse in Hockley in the Hole:

      "Mechanic since I was a lad, clock-maker since I came to my
      senses," said Saturn.  "The piece of information you are wanting,
      Doctor, is this: this here is an old Hooke balance-spring watch,
      this is. When the Master made it, why, it might've been the best
      time-piece ever fashioned by human hands. But now there's a score
      of proper horologists round Clerkenwell who can make ones that'll
      keep better time. Technology ages, dunnit"?

      Daniel pursed his lips to keep from laughing at the spectacle of
      this new, five-guinea word, Technology, emerging from that head.

      "It ages faster'n we do. It can be difficult for a bloke to keep
      up."

      "Is that your story, Saturn? You could not keep up, and so you
      went bad"?

      "I grew weary of keeping up, Doctor. That is my story, if you must
      know. I grew weary of transitory knowledge, and decided to seek
      knowledge of a more aeternal nature."

Why should I be compelled to "keep up" with technology that doesn't
serve me?  A similar argument emerges from the growing presence of web
"pages" that consist entirely of javascipt and style sheets.  In order
to read the target document, you must have a recent browser that
will corerectly execute a recent version of js & style to construct
the doc for you amongst superfluous fripperies and chrome.

My electric toaster is 104 years old and works fine.  I buy unsliced
bread from a local bakery but happily, even pre-sliced bread does not
come in a format that will only work in a toaster less than, say, 2
years old.  (Oh, fuvg, I've just given bakers^H^H^H^H^H^H the
processed food industry ideas.)


[1] http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/alien/austere.html

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

Member 2341, Austere Generation of Humanists

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#15104

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>:

> Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:
>> That's how it should be. I don't know what takes place under the
>> hood of my car.
>
> A sorry admission. Do you know how your kidney works? Or your heart?
> How about your your toaster?

No, I don't. Not well enough, anyway, to perform surgery on my loved
ones.


Marko

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#15107

On 2017-12-07, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> No, I don't. Not well enough, anyway, to perform surgery on my loved
> ones.

I make it a point to understand any piece of technology that I use.

I do know what goes on inside my car, my toaster, my radio, my TV,
my computer, etc., etc. I won't be doing surgery on anyone but have
certainly done my share of repairs on cars and appliances. I frankly
find it hard to fathom the mindset of people who go about their lives
not knowing at least the basics of how the devices they depend on work,
even if they're not into doing their own repairs and maintenance.

As far as ASCII is concerned it has for decades been the universal
least common denominator for digital communications in English. That is
the only language that concerns me. These days I'm retired from software
development, but ASCII is the only character encoding I ever made use of
while active in programming aside from a short foray into EBCDIC early on.

We in America know that everyone actually thinks in English internally
anyway and that if you shout at foreigners loudly enough they *will*
understand what you are saying. :)

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

  NSA sedition and treason        -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
  Don't talk to cops!             -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
  Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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#15113

Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> writes:

> On 2017-12-07, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>
>> No, I don't. Not well enough, anyway, to perform surgery on my loved
>> ones.
> 
> I make it a point to understand any piece of technology that I use.
> 
> I do know what goes on inside my car, my toaster, my radio, my TV,
> my computer, etc., etc....

Good on you.

>  I won't be doing surgery on anyone but...

Surgery is not a science, it is a craft that depends on advanced
science.  Learning a craft goes far beyond basic (or even advanced and
highly technical) understanding of how things work.  A degree in
metallurgy will enable you to exercise good judgement about metal
things in your life but will not enable you, by itself, to forge a
good sword or raise a silver teapot.

> We in America know that everyone actually thinks in English
> internally anyway and that if you shout at foreigners loudly enough
> they *will* understand what you are saying. :)

That would explain the posters who use ALL UPPER CASE to make a
point. :-)

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#15112

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:

> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>:
> 
>> Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:
>>
>>> That's how it should be. I don't know what takes place under the
>>> hood of my car.
>>
>> A sorry admission. Do you know how your kidney works? Or your heart?
>> How about your your toaster?
> 
> No, I don't. Not well enough, anyway, to perform surgery on my loved
> ones.

That would not, of course, come under the rubric of "austere
generation of humanists who still insist on wanting to understand the
world around them."  What would come under that rubric is recognizing
or being able with some effort to recognize, when a physician's
diagnosis or recommendation smells of crackpottery, trendiness,
failure to have kept up with research or other not-improbable
failures of medical practitioners.  Or being able to exercise
informed judgement on whether to handle your own symptoms with
wait-and-see or Doctor-you-have-to-DO-something-now.  Or just simply
to make the legally mandated notion of "informed consent" meaningful.

I'm pretty sure I could do a tracheotomy in a life-or-death situation
but posession of that knowledge is happenstance.  Making the judgement
that such a risky attempt with a pocket knife were justified would
depend on having striven for many years to understand what's going on
under the biological hood despite that not being my specialization.

And I could probably repair my century-old toaster, too.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#15114

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>:
> And I could probably repair my century-old toaster, too.

Just don't tell the insurance agent...


Marko

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#15115

On 12/07/2017 10:43 AM, Mike Spencer wrote:

> I'm pretty sure I could do a tracheotomy in a life-or-death situation

  "As seen on TV..."

> but posession of that knowledge is happenstance.  Making the judgement
> that such a risky attempt with a pocket knife were justified would
> depend on having striven for many years to understand what's going on
> under the biological hood despite that not being my specialization.

I've wondered about that.  It looks so EASY when they do it, so I looked 
for youtube videos.  I can't feel my own adam's apple (unless I assume 
that that's the area that vibrates when I hum) or cricoid cartilege or 
indentation between them, just muscle with a half-inch doubled layer of, 
presumably, fat.  I'm doomed.

> And I could probably repair my century-old toaster, too.

The pyramid-like things that you put on top of a stove burner don't need 
repair.  The ones with the doors that allow the bread to slide down so 
you close them up with the raw side toward the element seem to be pretty 
repairable unless you break the nichrome wire.


-- 
Cheers, Bev
   "Faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death."
                                                  -- Hunter S. Thompson

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#15119

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> writes:

> On 12/07/2017 10:43 AM, Mike Spencer wrote:
> 
> > I'm pretty sure I could do a tracheotomy in a life-or-death situation
> 
>   "As seen on TV..."

A good surmise but wrong.  I've seen it done in animal surgery, then
discussed with medical people how it would be done differently in a
human emergency.

>> but posession of that knowledge is happenstance.  Making the judgement
>> that such a risky attempt with a pocket knife were justified would
>> depend on having striven for many years to understand what's going on
>> under the biological hood despite that not being my specialization.
> 
> I've wondered about that.  It looks so EASY when they do it, so I looked 
> for youtube videos.  I can't feel my own adam's apple (unless I assume 
> that that's the area that vibrates when I hum) or cricoid cartilege or 
> indentation between them, just muscle with a half-inch doubled layer of, 
> presumably, fat.  I'm doomed.

Avoid having beer bottle rammed down your throat in an accident and
other documented, airway-occlusive recreations.

>> And I could probably repair my century-old toaster, too.
> 
> The pyramid-like things that you put on top of a stove burner don't need 
> repair.  The ones with the doors that allow the bread to slide down so 
> you close them up with the raw side toward the element seem to be pretty 
> repairable...

Mine is of same era as the latter but side-to-side.  In winter we just
grill toast by tossing it onto the wood stove, perhaps on a hibachi
grate to keep it from burning.

>  ...unless you break the nichrome wire.

Yes.  Appears to be spot selded at the ends.  Not sure I could
duplicate that.  But I have some spare nichrome wire here somewhere.


-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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