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Slashcott enters second week (?!)

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  Slashcott enters second week (?!) RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-16 20:59 +0000
    Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) Koen Lefever <koen.lefever@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 15:57 -0800
      Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-17 09:21 +0100
      Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) RS Wood <rswood@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-17 09:36 +0000
        Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "tdk" <forum.tdk@squte.com> - 2014-02-17 05:01 +0501
          Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? RS Wood <rswood@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-17 13:35 +0000
            Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "tdk" <forum.tdk@squte.com> - 2014-02-17 12:26 +1226
          Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-17 18:16 +0100
            Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? invis <invis@invis.net> - 2014-02-17 17:30 +0000
              Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? cykros@devio.us - 2014-02-17 22:50 +0000
        Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) Lance Orner <lance@orner.invalid.net> - 2014-02-17 09:45 -0800
          Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) RS Wood <rswood@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-17 19:54 +0000
    Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2014-02-17 00:00 -0800
    Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 10:06 -0500
      Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) wjwlsn <ibillwilson@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 16:22 +0000
        Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) wjwlsn <ibillwilson@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 16:28 +0000
          Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) cykros@devio.us - 2014-02-17 23:02 +0000
          Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-18 00:34 +0100
            Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) Johannes Grassler <jgr-usenet@btw23.de> - 2014-02-18 23:45 +0000
        Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "tdk" <forum.tdk@squte.com> - 2014-02-17 17:43 +0000
          Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-18 01:55 +0200
            Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-18 07:37 +0100
              Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? dialmove <dialmove@gmail.com> - 2014-02-18 13:07 +0000
                Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? dialmove <dialmove@gmail.com> - 2014-02-18 13:16 +0000
                  Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "tdk" <forum.tdk@squte.com> - 2014-02-18 08:02 +0802
                  Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "q.kontinuum" <achsis_of_elvis@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-18 22:51 +0100
                    Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "tdk" <forum.tdk@squte.com> - 2014-02-19 01:56 +0156
            Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Lance Orner <lance@orner.invalid.net> - 2014-02-18 19:47 -0800
              Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-19 08:58 +0200
              Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "tdk" <forum.tdk@squte.com> - 2014-02-19 01:36 +0136
          Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? 2phar <none@example.com> - 2014-02-18 00:08 +0000
            Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-18 07:12 +0000
              Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Koen Lefever <koen.lefever@gmail.com> - 2014-02-18 05:41 -0800
                Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-18 20:24 +0000
              Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2014-02-21 17:16 +0000
              Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-02-26 12:33 -0500
                Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-26 18:31 +0000
                  Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-26 21:07 +0000
                  Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "Andy K." <andy.k466@gmail.com> - 2014-03-02 17:52 +0100
                    Posting to other tech groups, flag to comp.misc RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-03-02 19:56 +0000
                      Re: Posting to other tech groups, flag to comp.misc Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2014-03-02 14:15 -0600
                        Re: Posting to other tech groups, flag to comp.misc Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-02 23:47 +0000
                      Re: Posting to other tech groups, flag to comp.misc Stephen Thomas Cole <usenet@stephenthomascole.com> - 2014-03-02 20:46 +0000
                  Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-03-02 23:24 -0500
            Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "tdk" <forum.tdk@squte.com> - 2014-02-19 01:47 +0147
          Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-02-26 12:31 -0500
            Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "tdk" <forum.tdk@squte.com> - 2014-02-26 14:07 -0600
            Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "wjwlsn" <ibillwilson@gmail.com> - 2014-02-26 14:30 -0600
              Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2014-03-02 23:38 -0500
                Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "wjwlsn" <ibillwilson@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 00:54 -0600
                  Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2014-03-03 07:31 +0000
                    Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-03 09:46 +0200
                      Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2014-03-03 08:02 +0000
                    Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "tdk" <forum.tdk@squte.com> - 2014-03-03 07:55 -0600
                      Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2014-03-03 14:22 +0000
                      Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be.invalid> - 2014-03-03 17:31 +0100
                      Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2014-03-03 17:13 +0000
                        Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-03-03 19:55 +0000
                      Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2014-03-03 22:05 +0000
                      Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Bjoern Hoehrmann <bjoern@hoehrmann.de> - 2014-03-04 14:06 +0100
                    Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? "wjwlsn" <ibillwilson@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 09:43 -0600
                      Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2014-03-03 21:11 +0000
                Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-03-03 13:19 +0000
                  Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-03-03 13:55 +0000
                    Re: Slashcott enters second week  ? RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-03-03 14:21 +0000
        Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) "Elizabeth T. Knuth" <eknuth@csbsju.edu> - 2014-02-22 13:57 -0600
        Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) Peter Percival <peterxpercival@hotmail.com> - 2014-02-22 20:12 +0000
    Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2014-02-20 10:15 +0000
      Re: Slashcott enters second week (?!) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-20 12:25 +0200

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#1162 — Re: Posting to other tech groups, flag to comp.misc

On 3/2/2014 1:56 PM, RS Wood wrote:
> On 2014-03-02, Andy K. <andy.k466@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 18:31:05 +0000
>> RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Usenet needs more people to participate than it does carpetbaggers
>>>> taking over one unused newsgroup because the website they've
>>>> invested in so much has incremented its level of commerciality.  
>>>
>>> Michael - You seem overly invested in protecting this Usenet group
>>> for the people who were using it prior to February 2014.
>>
>> While he was way over the line in his tone and most of his points, he
>> was right in the fact that some crossposting would be a good idea. If
>> only to increase visibility of certain threads towards groups which
>> might provide additional insight, making this group even more
>> interesting to read.
> 
> Funny you should mention that; I was just thinking of a new idea.  There
> was a pretty good discussion on crossposting here earlier and most
> people - and me too - are against it.  I think crossposting often leads
> to parallel discussions and is annoying.  But I was thinking - as you
> are, apparently - that Michael was right that, for example, there are
> good groups dedicated to things like VMS or Perl or Emacs and it would
> be interesting to benefit from the knowledge of the folks in those
> groups.
> 
> My proposal - curious to see if anyone objects - is to post the general
> comp stuff here, stuff for which no dedicated newsgroup exists.  But
> when there's a better group, to post it there and post a 'flag' here.
> 
> Let's say there's a good article about emacs (not a hypothetical
> question, just saw one on Hacker News today).  I post it in comp.emacs,
> and then in comp.misc simply post a flag stating the article's title and
> in which group it was posted.
> 
> One neat thing about Usenet is that there are so many dedicated groups
> out there.  That same thing can be a weakness in that it's useful to
> have a place like this (or misc.news.scitech, cough cough) where people
> interested in all or any of those specific topics can meet, and where
> stuff that's more general and not necessarily germane to another
> particular group can be alerted to the discussion.
> 
> What do you think?  There was a good thread that led to a collection of
> good tech-related groups.  If everyone wants to give this a try, that's
> probably the list of groups with which I'd start.

I don't have any problem with crossposted discussions myself, so long
as they stay on topic for the crossposted groups. And there's the rub,
if there is thread drift they often don't. We see that in a.f.c
sometimes, and many of us there don't even notice that the
crossposting is going on, unless we notice that people taking part
aren't regulars. Since a.f.c is known for serious thread drift, this
can piss off the people in other groups, and it's pretty hard to make
it just stop once there are dozens of subthreads (and the occasional
obstinate party who keeps reinserting the crossposted groups into the
sanitized thread).

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#1172 — Re: Posting to other tech groups, flag to comp.misc

In message <lf03hb$hsf$1@dont-email.me> 
  Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> On 3/2/2014 1:56 PM, RS Wood wrote:
>> On 2014-03-02, Andy K. <andy.k466@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 18:31:05 +0000
>>> RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Usenet needs more people to participate than it does carpetbaggers
>>>>> taking over one unused newsgroup because the website they've
>>>>> invested in so much has incremented its level of commerciality.  
>>>>
>>>> Michael - You seem overly invested in protecting this Usenet group
>>>> for the people who were using it prior to February 2014.
>>>
>>> While he was way over the line in his tone and most of his points, he
>>> was right in the fact that some crossposting would be a good idea. If
>>> only to increase visibility of certain threads towards groups which
>>> might provide additional insight, making this group even more
>>> interesting to read.
>> 
>> Funny you should mention that; I was just thinking of a new idea.  There
>> was a pretty good discussion on crossposting here earlier and most
>> people - and me too - are against it.  I think crossposting often leads
>> to parallel discussions and is annoying.

Perhaps check the defnitions. Cross-posting deos NOT lead to 'parallel
discussions' because the posts are cross-posted to the relevant
newsgroups. It is DUPLICATE posting that causes parallel discussions.

>> But I was thinking - as you are, apparently - that Michael was right
>> that, for example, there are good groups dedicated to things like VMS
>> or Perl or Emacs and it would be interesting to benefit from the
>> knowledge of the folks in those groups.
>> 
>> My proposal - curious to see if anyone objects - is to post the general
>> comp stuff here, stuff for which no dedicated newsgroup exists.  But
>> when there's a better group, to post it there and post a 'flag' here.

The way to do that is, for example if a post is relevant to this group
and numpty.php.code, crosspost the article to both groups and set the
follow-ups to numpty.php.code.

>> Let's say there's a good article about emacs (not a hypothetical
>> question, just saw one on Hacker News today).  I post it in comp.emacs,
>> and then in comp.misc simply post a flag stating the article's title and
>> in which group it was posted.

That means two posts. I means readers of both groups see both the post
and the notification. Based on their order of reading, they may see the
notice AFTER they see the actual post. Annoying, that.

The advantage of crossposting is that unless you are using the world's
most pathetic news client, you only see a cross posted article once.

> I don't have any problem with crossposted discussions myself, so long
> as they stay on topic for the crossposted groups. And there's the rub,
> if there is thread drift they often don't. We see that in a.f.c

Cross-posted articles *should* set a follow-up to one group. Many people
ignore this, which is where problems arise.

-- 
The Steve is seen, rightly or wrongly, as the visionary, the leader,
the savant. Bill is the Boswell to The Steve's Johnson, but lacking
Boswell's wit, charm, and dynamic personality.

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#1163 — Re: Posting to other tech groups, flag to comp.misc

RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
> On 2014-03-02, Andy K. <andy.k466@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 18:31:05 +0000
>> RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote:
>> 
>>>> Usenet needs more people to participate than it does carpetbaggers
>>>> taking over one unused newsgroup because the website they've
>>>> invested in so much has incremented its level of commerciality.  
>>> 
>>> Michael - You seem overly invested in protecting this Usenet group
>>> for the people who were using it prior to February 2014.
>> 
>> While he was way over the line in his tone and most of his points, he
>> was right in the fact that some crossposting would be a good idea. If
>> only to increase visibility of certain threads towards groups which
>> might provide additional insight, making this group even more
>> interesting to read.
> 
> Funny you should mention that; I was just thinking of a new idea.  There
> was a pretty good discussion on crossposting here earlier and most
> people - and me too - are against it.  I think crossposting often leads
> to parallel discussions and is annoying.  But I was thinking - as you
> are, apparently - that Michael was right that, for example, there are
> good groups dedicated to things like VMS or Perl or Emacs and it would
> be interesting to benefit from the knowledge of the folks in those
> groups.
> 
> My proposal - curious to see if anyone objects - is to post the general
> comp stuff here, stuff for which no dedicated newsgroup exists.  But
> when there's a better group, to post it there and post a 'flag' here.
> 
> Let's say there's a good article about emacs (not a hypothetical
> question, just saw one on Hacker News today).  I post it in comp.emacs,
> and then in comp.misc simply post a flag stating the article's title and
> in which group it was posted.
> 
> One neat thing about Usenet is that there are so many dedicated groups
> out there.  That same thing can be a weakness in that it's useful to
> have a place like this (or misc.news.scitech, cough cough) where people
> interested in all or any of those specific topics can meet, and where
> stuff that's more general and not necessarily germane to another
> particular group can be alerted to the discussion.
> 
> What do you think?  There was a good thread that led to a collection of
> good tech-related groups.  If everyone wants to give this a try, that's
> probably the list of groups with which I'd start.

Post everything here (this is a "miscellaneous" group, after all) and
crosspost to specific groups as and when required. Tag every subject field
with something ("/cott"?) that folk can killfile easily by group and never
see anything you post to "their" groups or the subsequent discussion if
that's what they wish. Beyond that, fuck 'em. ;)

Don't lose too much sleep over it. You're doing much more good than harm. 

-- 
Stephen Thomas Cole // Sent from my iPhone

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#1174 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014, RS Wood wrote:

>> Usenet needs more people to participate than it does carpetbaggers
>> taking over one unused newsgroup because the website they've invested in
>> so much has incremented its level of commerciality.
>
> Michael - You seem overly invested in protecting this Usenet group for the 
> people who were using it prior to February 2014.  Here's who those people 
> are, and what they were posting:
>
But you forget, I never left Usenet.  I expended a lot of effort 17 years 
ago trying to build up the local hierarchy, I've stayed with the 
newsgroups as participation has dwindled.  I remember the disgust some 
locals proclaimed about usenet, yet they'd never participated.  I also 
remember some fools who thought they should use usenet as a survey, count 
heads, rather than use the interactive nature of the newsgroups to involve 
people, pull them in as participants.  I remember having a freenet here in 
Montreal, "internet access for all" for a total of four months in 1996, 
the people behind the scenes unable to use the local newsgroup, yet then 
contemptably blaming us when the project failed.

I've seen all the stories about "too much spam, and too many trolls", the 
disgust so many people have with the newsgroups, yet often that's just 
repetition of something they heard, not something they experienced.  I've 
seen people look at newsgroups, complain about too much spam and then fail 
at whatever project they were attempting, because they couldn't adjust to 
the new situation of being online.  For 25 years before that, I saw the 
same types of people and groups come up with other excuses for why they 
didn't do that well in involving people.

I never left, and yet suddenly a group of people want to start a club in 
an unused newsgroup.  I didn't come here through your webpage, I came here 
because someone posted in a newsgroup or two that I still read.  I came 
because I had no idea what you were doing here.  But in reading all the 
messages that were here last week, I see newbies having great plans, yet 
still not out of the newbie to Usenet stage.  I've seen all that before, 
people leaping before they listen and learn.

I find it amazing that all this time nobody said "hey, let's use usenet", 
yet when yet another website shows its commercial side or whatever, you 
come here planning to use this as your club room.

I don't care about this newsgroup, I care about all the planning you have 
for Usenet in general, when you haven't shown any leadership quality.  It 
doesn't matter which newsgroup you took over, or whether you'd created 
yet another newsgroup, it's whether you participate in Usenet or are 
treating this like a clubhouse, at which point you might as well have gone 
to a mailing list, or one of those google or yahoo groups.

So far what I see is some web-based notion of how things should be done 
applied to a newsgroup.  Yet, I can remember when someone basically said 
Usenet was like the card catalog of the internet, a reasonably well 
structured arrangement of discussions, so when you wanted to discuss 
something, you generally could find where it's at, and if not, then find a 
more general newsgroup to fit your interest in.  But this seems to be 
about this newsgroup, and then the rest of Usenet some ancillary to it, 
which is outrageous when so many seem to be new to usenet (or at least 
long gone and now returning).

You don't need a centralized forum or newsgroup when all of Usenet is well 
organized.

Judging at what you consider "active" newsgroups, I can tell there hasn't 
been much  exploring ("hacking" for those who love trendy labels).  I have 
no idea what state they are in, but there were newsgroups for events and 
newsgroups for new things on the internet and newsgroups for faqs and all 
that, the structure is there, so work with it, rather than thinking as 
newcomers that you have the solutions.  Indeed, in the old days, you'd 
start up a newsreader for the first time, and that sort of newsgroup was 
waiting, already subscribed to, and you were generally expected to read up 
on Usenet, and read a newsgroup a bit before posting.

You collectively can't make decisions about usenet until you actually are 
out there being participants.  In the posts I replied to last week, I saw 
a collective lack of knowledge of Usenet, yet some assumption of the right 
to "make it better".

Those posts of mine last week were in effect a reaction to your collective 
newbiness, which would have happend anyway if you'd popped into some of 
the many newsgroups I still read and replied to an old post via google, 
crossposted without a need, replied to an offtopic post as soon as you 
arrived, told the existing population that things needed to be cleaned up, 
or told us how to fix things without spending any real time participating.

    Michael

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#567 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

> > It should be possible to combine, say, comp.misc and a Slashdot-style Web UI
> Tell him tdk :)
Amazing nobody�s thought of it before ;-)
-- 
View this thread at http://squte.com/node/4459#comment-10611

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#970 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

On Mon, 17 Feb 2014, tdk wrote:

>> Another week of Slashcott may well drive the last nail into the coffin
> I would hate to see Slashdot shut down as a result of the slashcott. 
> Specially if Dice was willing to abandon Beta after all.
> The best case is to have Slashdot, SoylentNews /and/ comp.misc. I intend to 
> choose choice and support Slashdot so long as they hold off the Beta.
>
>> We need more people to start reading the group. 
> One way of doing that is to cross-post to any relevant groups. Cross-posting 
> is often used by trolls, so you have to make sure it is relevant to both 
> groups and to be on the safe side have 2 groups max, or you'll get flamed. 
> Some of the questions about news readers could usefully be x-posted to 
> news.software.readers, for instance.
>
No.  Carpetbaggers from the web shouldn't be talking about cross-posting.

There is virtually no reason for cross-posting, in virtually all cases 
there is one newsgroup that is best. What you do get is a horrible mess, 
as different people from different groups suddenly clash.  If you post in 
sci.electronics.basics you would expect a certain level of lack of 
knowledge, if you post to sci.electronics.design you'd expect a higher 
level of knowledge, yet people too often routinely post between those two 
newsgroups, and either get answers too over their head, or below their 
level.

Figure out a different way to promote your concept, don't use 
cross-posting.

   Michael

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#1000 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

Michael Black wrote:
>  Carpetbaggers from the web shouldn't be talking about cross-posting. 
I've been using Usenet for over twenty years. I've written my own newsreader from 
scratch and am developing a replacement for Usenet.

If I ever meet your requirements to not be a "Carpetbagger from the web", be sure 
to let me know. ;-)

Thanks for seconding my thoughts about x-posting. 
x-posting is seldom - but sometimes - needed. It is certainly overused more than 
it is underused, but it's sometimes appropriate.

In the case of comp.misc, it covers a wide variety of topics, so there are a number 
of groups that could be relevant to some threads. As I said above you "have to make sure it is relevant to both groups", 
and also of course lurk, read the FAQ, and make sure you know  the conventions for 
the group.


-- 
regards
~tdk
View this thread at http://squte.com/node/4459#comment-11034

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#1001 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

> No. Carpetbaggers from the web shouldn't be talking about cross-posting.
> There is virtually no reason for cross-posting, in virtually all cases 
> there is one newsgroup that is best. 

This made me curious about the existence of any widely-accepted guidelines
regarding the appropriateness of cross-posting on Usenet. The only thing I
could find that seemed "official" in any sense was the following.

* Hambridge, S., "Netiquette Guidelines", FYI 28, RFC 1855, October 1995.
http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1855

The Abstract says:
  �This document provides a minimum set of guidelines for Network Etiquette
  (Netiquette) which organizations may take and adapt for their own use. This
  memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo does not
  specify an Internet standard of any kind.�

So, take this document as a set recommendations rather than rules. Anyway,
the relevant section of the document for this discussion is 3.1.3 "NetNews
Guidelines". The following excerpts directly address the issue of cross-
posting...

Top of page 12: 
  �If you feel an article will be of interest to more than one
  Newsgroup, be sure to CROSSPOST the article rather than individually
  post it to those groups.  In general, probably only five-to-six
  groups will have similar enough interests to warrant this.�

Middle of page 11:
  �In NetNews parlance, "Posting" refers to posting a new article
  to a group, or responding to a post someone else has posted.
  "Cross-Posting" refers to posting a message to more than one
  group.  If you introduce Cross-Posting to a group, or if you
  direct "Followup-To:" in the header of your posting, warn
  readers!  Readers will usually assume that the message was
  posted to a specific group and that followups will go to
  that group.  Headers change this behavior.�

Please note that I am not promoting indiscriminate cross-posting. I can
agree with some of Michael Black's arguments against it. However, I believe
those arguments may be a tad over-zealous, and that in some cases, cross-
posting may be both permissible and useful.

Regards,
Bill
-- 
Join an active tech-news-and-discussion community in comp.misc...
Saving Usenet since February 2014! :p

View this thread at http://squte.com/node/4459#comment-11037

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#1175 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

On Wed, 26 Feb 2014, wjwlsn wrote:

>> No. Carpetbaggers from the web shouldn't be talking about cross-posting.
>> There is virtually no reason for cross-posting, in virtually all cases 
>> there is one newsgroup that is best. 
>
> This made me curious about the existence of any widely-accepted guidelines
> regarding the appropriateness of cross-posting on Usenet. The only thing I
> could find that seemed "official" in any sense was the following.
>
> * Hambridge, S., "Netiquette Guidelines", FYI 28, RFC 1855, October 1995.
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1855
>
And of course crossposting is better than multiple posting, but that 
doesn't mean crossposting is right.

Someone posts to every newsgroup in a hierarchy, they aren't using it 
right.

Too often it's that someone hasn't spent time checking a newsgroup to see 
if it's appropriate. Or in more recent times, it's someone who is 
broadcasting some obnoxious post, they don't care who it bothers.  In that 
case it's not just the contents of the post, but the crossposting actually 
makes it worse.

There is a reason why there are endless newsgroups.  One is to make each 
manageable, so you're not reading one big newsgroup.

And my point is that this group that's taken over this newsgroup has to 
give thought to what their point is, and what their relationship to the 
whole of Usenet is.  And what the point of crossposting would be.

Why should I suddenly see a message in some newsgroup I've read for twenty 
years that's actually coming from here, via crossposting?  I don't care 
about "community" here, I care about that other newsgroup being viable 
by having participants.  Crossposting may cause traffic, but it 
doesn't generally cause people to move to the other newsgroup. It's tit 
for tat, if you are hyping "community" here, then don't violate 
'community" there.   What value can you bring that actually requires 
crossposting?  I can see it workig in favor of this newsgroup, bring in 
traffic, bring in more participants via the crossposting, but why can't it 
be the other way, you come and participate where the discussion actually 
is?

I've seen the self-appointed fixers, the rec.radio.* hierarchy is burdened 
now with people who think we need an endless stream of read only messages 
taken from elsewhere, it kills discussion rather than leads discussion. 
And there is even a read only newsgroup for that purpose, rec.radio.info.

    Michael

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#1179 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

This is just going around in circles. I get that you feel there's something to 
protect 
from us "carpetbaggers" and "self-appointed fixers", although I'm not sure who
appointed you to be the Lord Protector of Usenet. None of this matters anyway...
you're probably going to complain whenever somebody does something you don't 
like on "your" Usenet, and the rest of us -- as individuals -- will probably continue 
to do whatever we want, even if you don't approve. You have no authority to make
anyone do anything differently. In fact, your insulting manner and condescending 
tone have most likely ensured that some of us will automatically ignore further 
posts from you on this subject. You would have served your goals much better
had you just been polite.

-- 
I drive a '74 AMC Hornet in my dreams, and I like cheese.
View this thread at http://squte.com/node/4459#comment-13888

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#1180 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

wjwlsn wrote:
> you're probably going to complain whenever somebody does something you don't
> like

Such as replying without any quoting so it's difficult to see the 
context of what they're replying to, for example?

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#1181 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk>:

> Such as replying without any quoting so it's difficult to see the
> context of what they're replying to, for example?

Noli turbare circulos meos!


Marko

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#1182 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk>:
>
>> Such as replying without any quoting so it's difficult to see the
>> context of what they're replying to, for example?
>
> Noli turbare circulos meos!

You all saw him, he had a gu^H^Hsword.

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#1187 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

> Such as replying without any quoting so it's difficult to see the context of what 
> they're replying to
The convention of quoting a lot of the message you are following up is obsolete 
IMHO.
It dates back to the early days of Usenet when propagation delays could be a day 
or more, instead of minutes.
This meant you could read the answer before the question. 

Nowadays almost all newsreaders show a tree view of the thread and make it easy 
to jump to the parent of a post. It's very rare to read a followup when the parent 
is missing.

So, personally, I rarely quote and only if I want to draw attention to some specific 
phrase. I also usually miss out attributions if there's only one person I could 
be replying to.

Bill is using a newsreader I wrote to post, this newsreader by default doesn't 
quote any of the parent, which encourages not quoting. This is opposite from most 
newsreaders which quote all of the parent post and leave people to delete stuff 
(which they often don't).

Most usenetters, over-quote instead of under-quote,so I'm sticking to this unless 
I see a good reason otherwise.

-- 
regards
~tdk
View this thread at http://squte.com/node/4459#comment-14677

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#1191 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

On 2014-03-03, tdk <forum.tdk@squte.com> wrote:
>> Such as replying without any quoting so it's difficult to see the context of what 
>> they're replying to
> The convention of quoting a lot of the message you are following up is obsolete 
> IMHO.

[snippage]

> Most usenetters, over-quote instead of under-quote,so I'm sticking to this unless 
> I see a good reason otherwise.

Not that I GAS what you think, since I routinely killfile anyone who doesn't
stick to the conventions worked out by many, many, people, all of them cleverer
than you.


-- 
Today is Boomtime, the 62nd day of Chaos in the YOLD 3180
"Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The
Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are
Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath"

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#1197 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

On Monday 03 March 2014 14:55, tdk conveyed the following to 
comp.misc...

> [Andy burns wrote:]
>
>> Such as replying without any quoting so it's difficult to see the
>> context of what they're replying to
>
> The convention of quoting a lot of the message you are following up is
> obsolete IMHO.

No, it's not.

> It dates back to the early days of Usenet when propagation delays
> could be a day or more, instead of minutes.
> This meant you could read the answer before the question.

You obviously don't understand how Usenet works.  Not all servers are 
always equally propagating copies of the articles.  It happens more 
often than not - due to synchronization issues and so-called "netsplits" 
- that an article will simply not propagate, or that a crucial node in 
the network of news servers will disappear off the network for some 
time, causing more than a day's worth of articles to simply go missing.

> Nowadays almost all newsreaders show a tree view of the thread and
> make it easy to jump to the parent of a post. It's very rare to read a
> followup when the parent is missing.

Sure, it's easy... so long as you're subscribed only to one newsgroup, 
or perhaps only a few newsgroups, with low to moderate traffic.  

Those of us subscribed to 50 newsgroups and above - some of which have 
very high traffic - really can't be bothered perusing the thread to find 
out what it is that a person is replying to, anymore than that we can be 
bothered with top-posters - i.e. people who write their reply at the top 
of their message ("because that is where the cursor appeared when they 
hit 'R'") while leaving the entire message they are replying to dangling 
*underneath* their reply.

You are not alone on Usenet, and your own habits are not everyone else's 
habits.  Show some consideration for people with less time on their 
hands and more subjects on their minds than you yourself can spare.

> So, personally, I rarely quote and only if I want to draw attention to
> some specific phrase. I also usually miss out attributions if there's
> only one person I could be replying to.

Because that makes perfect sense to *you.*  And what about all the other 
people reading these newsgroups?

> Bill is using a newsreader I wrote to post, this newsreader by default
> doesn't quote any of the parent, which encourages not quoting.

Then that's a terrible newsreader, on par with the dreaded Google Groups 
(or "Google Gropes") posting interface.

> This is opposite from most newsreaders which quote all of the parent
> post and leave people to delete stuff (which they often don't).

If people don't delete the stuff that they're not responding to and 
which is no longer required or relevant for anyone to still understand 
what is being discussed, then that's those people's decision, and then 
those people need to be properly educated.  Policing them by creating a 
newsreader which doesn't quote at all by default is not the right thing 
to do.

> Most usenetters, over-quote instead of under-quote,so I'm sticking to
> this unless I see a good reason otherwise.

Over-quoting and under-quoting are both bad habits.  Replacing one evil 
by another evil is not the answer.

-- 
= Aragorn =

         http://www.linuxcounter.net - registrant #223157

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#1206 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

In message <4459#14677@usenet.squte.com> 
  tdk <forum.tdk@squte.com> wrote:
>> Such as replying without any quoting so it's difficult to see the context of what 
>> they're replying to
> The convention of quoting a lot of the message you are following up is obsolete 
> IMHO.

Well, you know what your opinion is worth, right?

> It dates back to the early days of Usenet when propagation delays could be a day 
> or more, instead of minutes.

No, it dates back to the sense that a post should have context and that
the reader shoul not have to go back to a previous post for that context
unless they really really want to.

Trim the post you are replying to so that it contains the relevant
portion you are replying to. Not quoting at all is wrong, stupid, and
rude.

> Nowadays almost all newsreaders show a tree view of the thread and make it easy 
> to jump to the parent of a post. It's very rare to read a followup when the parent 
> is missing.

Not nearly as rare as you might think.

> So, personally, I rarely quote and only if I want to draw attention to some specific 
> phrase. I also usually miss out attributions if there's only one person I could 
> be replying to.

Well, then it's easy enough to add you to the bozo filters as those who
are two self-centered or sociopathic to make even the slightest attempt to
fit in to an existing community.

> Bill is using a newsreader I wrote to post, this newsreader by default doesn't 
> quote any of the parent, which encourages not quoting. This is opposite from most 
> newsreaders which quote all of the parent post and leave people to delete stuff 
> (which they often don't).

You wrote a fundamentally broken newsreader? And you're bragging about
it? What a putz.

-- 
I WON'T NOT USE NO DOUBLE NEGATIVES Bart chalkboard Ep. BABF02

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#1216 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

On 2014-03-03, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <4459#14677@usenet.squte.com> 
>   tdk <forum.tdk@squte.com> wrote:
>>> Such as replying without any quoting so it's difficult to see the
>>> context of what they're replying to
>> The convention of quoting a lot of the message you are following up
>> is obsolete IMHO.
>
> Well, you know what your opinion is worth, right?  You wrote a
> fundamentally broken newsreader? And you're bragging about it? What a
> putz.

Just remembered what I like about SLRN - great killfile implementation.
Say hi to Fum, Lewis.  There's no reason to indulge in personal attacks
- it tarnishes *your* reputation and cheapens *your* argument.

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#1223 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

tdk wrote:

> The convention of quoting a lot of the message you are following up is obsolete
> IMHO.
>
> Most usenetters, over-quote instead of under-quote,so I'm sticking to this unless
> I see a good reason otherwise.

Agreed, lack of trimming is also annoying, but many people set their 
news client to view unread messages only, therefore for messages with no 
quoting you have to either guess the context, or switch to view all 
messages, navigate up to the parent article, then read the reply, then 
switch back to unread only view - I'd rather not see such messages and 
will use the K key if necessary ...

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#1236 — Re: Slashcott enters second week ?

* tdk wrote in comp.misc:
>The convention of quoting a lot of the message you are following up is obsolete 
>IMHO.
>It dates back to the early days of Usenet when propagation delays could be a day 
>or more, instead of minutes.
>This meant you could read the answer before the question. 
>
>Nowadays almost all newsreaders show a tree view of the thread and make it easy 
>to jump to the parent of a post. It's very rare to read a followup when the parent 
>is missing.

Some people have good memory and fully recall the context of a message
when they see the relevant part quoted and can then quickly jump through
new messages, including skipping over messages in sub-threads they don't
care about and paying special attention to others (e.g., the quoted text
includes an important keyword that is not repeated in the follow-up but
still relevant to the sub-thread). Lack of quoted context (and that in-
cludes full-quotes and TOFU) makes threads much harder to follow.
-- 
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ 

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