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trying idle

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  trying idle Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-08 23:52 -0700
    Re: trying idle Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-10-09 05:26 -0400
      Re: trying idle Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-09 05:53 -0700
      Re: trying idle Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-09 06:12 -0700
        Re: trying idle Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-10-09 16:49 -0400
          Re: trying idle Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-09 19:03 -0700
      python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-16 06:29 -0700
        Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle) MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-10-16 15:04 +0100
        Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-17 02:23 +1100
          Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-10-16 16:23 +0000
            Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-17 03:33 +1100
        Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle) Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2014-10-17 08:48 +1100
          Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-16 18:08 -0700
            Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle) Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2014-10-17 16:03 +1100
    Re: trying idle wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-10-09 05:21 -0700
      Re: trying idle Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-10-10 02:54 -0500
    Re: trying idle random832@fastmail.us - 2014-10-09 08:47 -0400
      Re: trying idle Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-10-10 02:53 -0500
        Re: trying idle random832@fastmail.us - 2014-10-10 15:32 -0400
    Re: trying idle Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-10-10 03:08 -0500

#78879 — trying idle

Been using emacs for over 20 years and teaching python for 10.
And getting fed up that my audience looks at me like Rip van Winkle
each time I start up emacs...

So trying out Idle...

Some specific and some general questions:
My audience consists of people having linux and windows and macbooks.
Does Idle run on all these?
[Remember seeing some adventures with Tkinter...]
Particularly with macs my knowledge is at the level:
"How the ^%*)( do you right click without a right-click button?"
So I would like to avoid something that is not quite working.

Specific:
Is there a way to cut-paste a snippet from the interpreter window
containing ">>> " "... " into the file window and auto-remove the prompts?
[I have a vague recollection of Terry showing somethin...]

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#78882

On 10/9/2014 2:52 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> Been using emacs for over 20 years and teaching python for 10.
> And getting fed up that my audience looks at me like Rip van Winkle
> each time I start up emacs...
>
> So trying out Idle...
>
> Some specific and some general questions:
> My audience consists of people having linux and windows and macbooks.
> Does Idle run on all these?

If macbook runs OSX, and the linux has recent tcl/tk installed, the 
answer should be Yes

> [Remember seeing some adventures with Tkinter...]

One may have to install activestate tkc/tk on mac, depending on osx 
version.  This page has details:
  https://www.python.org/download/mac/tcltk

> Particularly with macs my knowledge is at the level:
> "How the ^%*)( do you right click without a right-click button?"

I believe control-click, but Macs users could say better.

> So I would like to avoid something that is not quite working.
>
> Specific:
> Is there a way to cut-paste a snippet from the interpreter window
> containing ">>> " "... " into the file window and auto-remove the prompts?
> [I have a vague recollection of Terry showing somethin...]

I doubt I said anything.  I have said there is a tracker issue for the 
feature (something similar to dedent).  I would like to add a general 
facility for users to define reformat/transform functions to do 
precisely what they want.  In particular, what to do with output lines?

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#78889

On Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:56:56 PM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
> > Specific:
> > Is there a way to cut-paste a snippet from the interpreter window
> > containing ">>> " "... " into the file window and auto-remove the prompts?
> > [I have a vague recollection of Terry showing somethin...]

> I doubt I said anything.  I have said there is a tracker issue for the 
> feature (something similar to dedent).  I would like to add a general 
> facility for users to define reformat/transform functions to do 
> precisely what they want.  In particular, what to do with output lines?

I was looking for something more simplistic:

eg in emacs there are rectangle commands; also following MS office there are
'column' commands.  Using either of these its a couple of keystrokes/clicks
to 'de-prompt' a region/selection all of whose lines start with ">>> " or
"... "

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#78892

On Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:56:56 PM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 10/9/2014 2:52 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > My audience consists of people having linux and windows and macbooks.
> > Does Idle run on all these?

> If macbook runs OSX, and the linux has recent tcl/tk installed, the 
> answer should be Yes

I get this traceback on closing idle. Otherwise seems to be working.
Still...
[idle3 on linux]

Exception ignored in: <bound method _ComplexBinder.__del__ of <idlelib.MultiCall._ComplexBinder object at 0x7f2a98e914e0>>
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib/python3.4/idlelib/MultiCall.py", line 244, in __del__
    self.widget.unbind(self.widgetinst, seq, id)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.4/tkinter/__init__.py", line 1071, in unbind
    self.tk.call('bind', self._w, sequence, '')
_tkinter.TclError: can't invoke "bind" command: application has been destroyed
Exception ignored in: <bound method _ComplexBinder.__del__ of <idlelib.MultiCall._ComplexBinder object at 0x7f2a98eb2240>>
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib/python3.4/idlelib/MultiCall.py", line 244, in __del__
    self.widget.unbind(self.widgetinst, seq, id)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.4/tkinter/__init__.py", line 1071, in unbind
    self.tk.call('bind', self._w, sequence, '')
_tkinter.TclError: can't invoke "bind" command: application has been destroyed
Exception ignored in: <bound method _ComplexBinder.__del__ of <idlelib.MultiCall._ComplexBinder object at 0x7f2a98eb25f8>>
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib/python3.4/idlelib/MultiCall.py", line 244, in __del__
    self.widget.unbind(self.widgetinst, seq, id)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.4/tkinter/__init__.py", line 1071, in unbind
    self.tk.call('bind', self._w, sequence, '')
_tkinter.TclError: can't invoke "bind" command: application has been destroyed
Exception ignored in: <bound method _ComplexBinder.__del__ of <idlelib.MultiCall._ComplexBinder object at 0x7f2a98eb29b0>>
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/lib/python3.4/idlelib/MultiCall.py", line 244, in __del__
    self.widget.unbind(self.widgetinst, seq, id)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.4/tkinter/__init__.py", line 1071, in unbind
    self.tk.call('bind', self._w, sequence, '')
_tkinter.TclError: can't invoke "bind" command: application has been destroyed

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#78911

On 10/9/2014 9:12 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:56:56 PM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> On 10/9/2014 2:52 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
>>> My audience consists of people having linux and windows and macbooks.
>>> Does Idle run on all these?
>
>> If macbook runs OSX, and the linux has recent tcl/tk installed, the
>> answer should be Yes
>
> I get this traceback on closing idle. Otherwise seems to be working.
[snip]
> _tkinter.TclError: can't invoke "bind" command: application has been destroyed

Are you running 3.4.0? This was a 3.4 regression that was only reported 
to occur if one opened Idle with a editor window and closed without ever 
running it.  This was fixed in
http://bugs.python.org/issue20167
but I believe too late for 3.4.0.  If you see this with 3.4.2 (strongly 
recommended, especially forthcoming OSX) or even 3.4.1, please add a 
note to the issue with exact details -- how start, what do, how close.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#78919

On Friday, October 10, 2014 2:19:53 AM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 10/9/2014 9:12 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:56:56 PM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
> >> On 10/9/2014 2:52 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> >>> My audience consists of people having linux and windows and macbooks.
> >>> Does Idle run on all these?
> >> If macbook runs OSX, and the linux has recent tcl/tk installed, the
> >> answer should be Yes
> > I get this traceback on closing idle. Otherwise seems to be working.
> [snip]
> > _tkinter.TclError: can't invoke "bind" command: application has been destroyed

> Are you running 3.4.0? This was a 3.4 regression that was only reported 
> to occur if one opened Idle with a editor window and closed without ever 
> running it.  This was fixed in
> http://bugs.python.org/issue20167
> but I believe too late for 3.4.0.  If you see this with 3.4.2 (strongly 
> recommended, especially forthcoming OSX) or even 3.4.1, please add a 
> note to the issue with exact details -- how start, what do, how close.

Added the backtrace there.

3.4.1-1 on debian testing

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#79209 — python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle)

On Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:56:56 PM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:

> One may have to install activestate tkc/tk on mac, depending on osx 
> version.  This page has details:
>   https://www.python.org/download/mac/tcltk

Ok Ive some more information:
The people in the audience using macs are using mavericks

Whats the best way to setup python3 for that?

I remember seeing some two different repos (if that what they are called
in mac-land) for python. With some different tradeoffs which I dont understand.

Another related question for mac-python usage:

I asked one of the mac-users:
Please start your default python in a shell and tell me what version it is.

Answer: Mac has no shell.

I find this hard to believe. Is a shell called something else
in mac-maverick?? Where/how to find it?

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#79211 — Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle)

On 2014-10-16 14:29, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:56:56 PM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
>
>> One may have to install activestate tkc/tk on mac, depending on osx
>> version.  This page has details:
>>   https://www.python.org/download/mac/tcltk
>
> Ok Ive some more information:
> The people in the audience using macs are using mavericks
>
> Whats the best way to setup python3 for that?
>
> I remember seeing some two different repos (if that what they are called
> in mac-land) for python. With some different tradeoffs which I dont understand.
>
> Another related question for mac-python usage:
>
> I asked one of the mac-users:
> Please start your default python in a shell and tell me what version it is.
>
> Answer: Mac has no shell.
>
> I find this hard to believe. Is a shell called something else
> in mac-maverick?? Where/how to find it?
>
In Macland it's called the terminal emulator:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_%28OS_X%29

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#79217 — Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle)

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 1:04 AM, MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> In Macland it's called the terminal emulator:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_%28OS_X%29

To be strictly correct, the "shell" would be the thing you run that
gives you a prompt, and the "terminal emulator" would be the thing you
run that gives you a black box on your GUI. On my Linux box here
(Debian Wheezy with Xfce), I use xfce4-terminal as my terminal
emulator, and bash as my shell. You could alternatively use
gnome-terminal, or you could use csh for your shell, or whatever
strikes your fancy. Macs are no different here; they have a terminal
emulator (which is usually just called "Terminal" aiui), and a shell
(usually bash, though not quite the bash I know from my systems -
maybe a different version).

It's Windows that is the oddball. You can't easily find the terminal
emulator, though it does have one. People think of "running cmd.exe"
to get a "shell", which in reality is both a terminal and a shell
inside that terminal. But ultimately, it's still the same.

ChrisA

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#79218 — Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle)

On 2014-10-16, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 1:04 AM, MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
>> In Macland it's called the terminal emulator:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_%28OS_X%29
>
> To be strictly correct, the "shell" would be the thing you run that
> gives you a prompt, and the "terminal emulator" would be the thing
> you run that gives you a black box on your GUI.

Infidel! The correct color for an empty terminal box is _white_.

You probably eat your soft-boiled eggs from the wrong end too.

;)

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Everybody is going
                                  at               somewhere!!  It's probably
                              gmail.com            a garage sale or a disaster
                                                   Movie!!

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#79219 — Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle)

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 3:23 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 2014-10-16, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 1:04 AM, MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
>>> In Macland it's called the terminal emulator:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_%28OS_X%29
>>
>> To be strictly correct, the "shell" would be the thing you run that
>> gives you a prompt, and the "terminal emulator" would be the thing
>> you run that gives you a black box on your GUI.
>
> Infidel! The correct color for an empty terminal box is _white_.
>
> You probably eat your soft-boiled eggs from the wrong end too.
>

I probably do! Though I haven't yet figured out how to eat them from the inside.

ChrisA

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#79227 — Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle)

On 16Oct2014 06:29, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:56:56 PM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> One may have to install activestate tkc/tk on mac, depending on osx
>> version.  This page has details:
>>   https://www.python.org/download/mac/tcltk
>
>Ok Ive some more information:
>The people in the audience using macs are using mavericks
>
>Whats the best way to setup python3 for that?
>
>I remember seeing some two different repos (if that what they are called
>in mac-land) for python. With some different tradeoffs which I dont understand.

I use MacPorts. Also popular are Brew and Fink. You can even use them all at 
once; they install to separate trees.

My Python 3 comes from MacPorts.

>Another related question for mac-python usage:
>I asked one of the mac-users:
>Please start your default python in a shell and tell me what version it is.
>Answer: Mac has no shell.
>
>I find this hard to believe. Is a shell called something else
>in mac-maverick?? Where/how to find it?

As pointed out elsewhere, OSX ships with "Terminal" as a terminal emutator.  
Another popular terminal emulator is iTerm2, which is what I prefer. You can 
run X11 also, and use any of the many terminal emulators that run in it, though 
the experience is clunkier.

As far as shells go, OSX ships with /bin/sh, /bin/bash and /bin/zsh. Or for the 
perverse, /bin/csh and /bin/tcsh (it is, after all, a BSD derived OS). I use 
zsh, getting my copy from MacPorts instead of OSX's native one.

So it is a perfectly normal UNIX system in this regard.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au>

No electrons were harmed in the production of this message.
         - Dr. P. Gensheimer <paulg@fs1.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de>

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#79230 — Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle)

On Friday, October 17, 2014 3:48:20 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 16Oct2014 06:29, rusi  wrote:
> >On Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:56:56 PM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
> >> One may have to install activestate tkc/tk on mac, depending on osx
> >> version.  This page has details:
> >>   https://www.python.org/download/mac/tcltk
> >Ok Ive some more information:
> >The people in the audience using macs are using mavericks
> >Whats the best way to setup python3 for that?
> >I remember seeing some two different repos (if that what they are called
> >in mac-land) for python. With some different tradeoffs which I dont understand.

> I use MacPorts. Also popular are Brew and Fink. You can even use them all at 
> once; they install to separate trees.

Ok and is the MacPorts python3 one monolithic package or a bunch of separate
ones (like debian/ubuntu) for core-python, tkinter, idle etc?

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#79234 — Re: python3 on mac-mavericks (was trying idle)

On 16Oct2014 18:08, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, October 17, 2014 3:48:20 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
>> On 16Oct2014 06:29, rusi  wrote:
>> >On Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:56:56 PM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> >> One may have to install activestate tkc/tk on mac, depending on osx
>> >> version.  This page has details:
>> >>   https://www.python.org/download/mac/tcltk
>> >Ok Ive some more information:
>> >The people in the audience using macs are using mavericks
>> >Whats the best way to setup python3 for that?
>> >I remember seeing some two different repos (if that what they are called
>> >in mac-land) for python. With some different tradeoffs which I dont understand.
>
>> I use MacPorts. Also popular are Brew and Fink. You can even use them all at
>> once; they install to separate trees.
>
>Ok and is the MacPorts python3 one monolithic package or a bunch of separate
>ones (like debian/ubuntu) for core-python, tkinter, idle etc?

It is one package. (You can install distinct packages for python 3.2, 3.3, 3.4 
... and select which one is default.) That gets you Python and the stdlib.

There's a whole suite of extra packages for various third party libraries. And 
of course the user can use pip and/or virtualenv to arrange things on their 
own, also.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au>

People are paid for coming in the morning and leaving at night, and for
saying "Good morning" in the morning and "Good afternoon" in the afternoon
and never confusing the two.
         - Albert Shanker, president of the American Federation of Teachers

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#78884

Le jeudi 9 octobre 2014 08:53:26 UTC+2, Rustom Mody a écrit :
> 
> So trying out Idle...
> 
> 
> 
> Some specific and some general questions:
> 
> My audience consists of people having linux and windows and macbooks.
> 
> Does Idle run on all these?
> 
---

No.

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#78935

On 10/9/14 7:21 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> My audience consists of people having linux and windows and macbooks.
>>
>> Does Idle run on all these?
>>
> ---
>
> No.
>

  Huh?

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#78887

On Thu, Oct 9, 2014, at 05:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 10/9/2014 2:52 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > Particularly with macs my knowledge is at the level:
> > "How the ^%*)( do you right click without a right-click button?"
> 
> I believe control-click, but Macs users could say better.

Control-click was the canonical way to do it when right click menus were
introduced in Mac OS itself. Some programs (notably Netscape) supported
them via click-hold before that. And it's been nearly a decade since
Apple sold a mouse with no ability to right-click.

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#78934

On 10/9/14 7:47 AM, random832@fastmail.us wrote:
>>
>> I believe control-click, but Macs users could say better.
>
> Control-click was the canonical way to do it when right click menus were
> introduced in Mac OS itself. Some programs (notably Netscape) supported
> them via click-hold before that. And it's been nearly a decade since
> Apple sold a mouse with no ability to right-click.
>

The apple mouse has only one click in the hardware... but, through the 
software (settings) the apple hardware 'know' which side of the mouse 
you are pushing over. You can configure the mouse through the settings 
to make the left or right side function alternately. The same is true 
for the magic mouse (wireless, swipe-able); it also only has one clicker 
but 'senses' which side of the mouse the fingers are over when the push 
occurs. At any rate, right mousing on the mac has been happening for 
several years.

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#78969

On Fri, Oct 10, 2014, at 03:53, Mark H Harris wrote:
> The apple mouse has only one click in the hardware... but, through the 
> software (settings) the apple hardware 'know' which side of the mouse 
> you are pushing over.

It only has one physical switch (I'm not sure the latest ones have any
at all), but AFAIK that doesn't mean it doesn't send right-click events
to systems that just see it as a dumb HID mouse.

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#78936

On 10/9/14 1:52 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
 > Been using emacs for over 20 years and teaching python for 10.
 > And getting fed up that my audience looks at me like Rip van Winkle
 > each time I start up emacs...

   (sigh)

 > So trying out Idle...

    Good for you! ... and even better for your students. IDLE is 
fabulous as a native python interactive development environment these 
days. It really works well, is clean and does what it advertises; its 
very nice!

 >
 > Some specific and some general questions:
 > My audience consists of people having linux and windows and macbooks.
 > Does Idle run on all these?

    Absolutely. The ONLY problem you might run into on the (macs) apple 
systems is that tcl/tk tkinter might be at the wrong level. Use ActiveTCL:

   https://www.python.org/download/mac/tcltk

   Depending on the apple system the wrong (built-in tcl/tk tkinter) 
will cause problems. If you ActiveTCL you'll have no problem. Just point 
your students at the appropriate pages.

Cheers

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