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Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy

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  Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-03 16:30 +0930
    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 08:09 +0000
      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-04 02:27 +0930
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-03 20:46 +0000
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 06:15 +0600
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-05 00:34 +0000
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 07:05 +0600
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-05 01:47 +0000
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 14:00 -0300
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-05 17:49 +0000
                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 16:14 -0300
                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-06 00:06 +0000
                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-06 13:39 +0200
                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-06 15:37 +0000
                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-06 20:23 +0200
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 02:16 +0300
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 13:42 +0200
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 21:06 +0300
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 21:28 +0200
                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 06:38 +0300
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-09-07 15:28 -0700
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "....winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> - 2026-09-07 02:01 -0400
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2026-09-07 01:47 -0500
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-07 10:18 +0000
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 13:30 +0200
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 21:22 +0300
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-07 22:28 +0000
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 07:22 +0300
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-08 10:44 +0000
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 13:27 +0000
                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-08 09:47 -0600
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 19:51 +0300
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2026-09-08 10:23 -0700
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-08 18:12 +0000
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 22:18 +0400
                                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2026-09-09 19:46 -0700
                                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-25 23:43 +0800
                                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2026-09-25 13:14 -0700
                                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-26 04:41 +0800
                                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-25 22:17 +0000
                                                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-09-26 07:26 +0800
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 18:59 +0200
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 21:20 +0400
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 19:37 +0200
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-08 19:26 +0200
                                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-08 11:36 -0600
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-08 20:05 +0200
                                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-08 20:35 +0200
                                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-08 19:06 +0000
                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-07 10:47 +0100
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 13:34 +0200
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 18:48 +0200
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-09-07 18:46 +0100
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-07 14:04 +0000
                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:47 +0300
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Nick Charles <none@none.none> - 2026-09-05 01:11 +0000
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 07:24 +0600
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 23:15 -0700
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 14:18 -0300
                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-09-05 16:40 -0700
                        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 02:40 +0300
                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:09 +0300
                            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:12 +0300
                              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:13 +0300
                                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:14 +0300
                                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:16 +0300
                                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 03:18 +0300
                                      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 04:23 +0300
                          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-09-06 19:03 -0700
                    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2026-09-06 11:57 +0000
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-09-05 06:44 +0000
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 14:35 -0300
      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-09-03 15:48 -0700
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc> - 2026-09-04 02:02 +0300
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 07:46 +0600
      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-04 10:28 +0200
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> - 2026-09-04 11:44 +0000
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 20:28 +0300
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-07 21:45 +0300
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-09-07 21:28 +0200
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 07:38 +0300
    Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-04 22:58 +0000
      Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 07:13 +0600
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-05 07:57 +0000
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 14:48 -0300
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-05 12:13 -0600
              Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 15:18 -0300
                Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-09-05 12:25 -0600
                  Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 16:22 -0300
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-06 00:11 +0000
        Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-09-05 09:17 +0100
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2026-09-05 11:22 +0000
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-05 15:13 -0300
          Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> - 2026-09-06 20:39 +0200
            Re: Apple changed their documentation at my request but it proves they don't care about privacy Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> - 2026-09-08 08:07 +0300

Page 3 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5  Next page →

#198077

On 9/26/2026 6:17 AM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Sep 2026 13:14:48 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> 
>> However, I have ports 5060-5062 blocked because I got tired of
>> having my SIP phones probed and crashed.
> 
> Are SIP phones that easy to crash?
> 
> Have you thought of interposing some kind of intermediary SIP server,
> which should be more robust? Kamailio and Asterisk come to mind.

Lawrence, Lawrence, Lawrence!  Can't you read?  Did you not notice the
man said he doesn't want to talk to anybody?  So of course he hasn't
thought of it, he has other projects to work on!
-- 
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via XS News
https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;
Federated at https://fed.brid.gy/bsky/myrkraverk.bsky.social

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#197994

On 2026-09-08 17:47, Lane W wrote:
> Why do you call him/her Arlen if his/her preferred name is Maria? Are 
> you from the 70s?

Because he is not Maria.

He is a nameshifter, he changes his name eventually. We have known him 
for a long time as Arlen in the past, so that's the name we stick to, 
not the name he uses at the current time.

I strongly dislike that he is using a woman's name, so I refuse to call 
him by that.

He is not a man that discovers his true self is feminine and changes his 
name. I would respect that.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#197995

Carlos E.R. wrote:
> I strongly dislike that he is using a woman's name, so I refuse to call 
> him by that.

Hi Carlos,

Since almost nobody on these technical newsgroups are females, IMHO, I
think I'll use Maria only for a few years and change it to, oh, Sally.

That would be another clear and obvious indication that I'm not hiding for
even a moment FROM YOU, but from robot header aggregation tools, which is
more and more of a problem even as I recognized the issue two decades ago.

And while I get why you associate nymshifting with the disgusting trolls,
you need to take an elementary course in Logic (or Occam's Razor at least).

A person has to rob a bank to be called a disgusting bank robber, right?
Just putting a mask on his face for privacy does not make him a criminal.

In fact, your disgusting habit of absurdly claiming everyone who uses a
fake name is a troll is starting to grate on me as it's disingenuous.

You may be truly a Carlos, but your oft-repeated claim that anyone who
doesn't use their real name in Usenet posts is a troll is patently absurd.

I randomize the headers by a *lot* of things, time zone being one of them.
So is the IP address. And, at times, the newsreader (usually when they go
suddenly defunct such as with netfront, mixmin, aioe, dizum, et al.)

But if it takes you or anyone more than a split second to realize only I
post like I do, with perfect English grammer, punctuation & sentence
structure, and from Santa Cruz Mountains, with a Silicon Valley heritage,
and with the same phone with a unique homescreen (since 2021) and the same
PC with a unique desktop (since 2009) with the same privacy focus, and even
down to the same way I put a period after the double-quote, you're a moron.

Hell, who posts this kind of screenshots for decades on end, sans changing?
 <https://i.postimg.cc/xdSMtBkn/vysor36.jpg> scrcpy vs Vysor resolution
 <https://i.postimg.cc/TYvqdxCT/vysor35.jpg> iOS & Android PC mirroring
 <https://i.postimg.cc/k5gv0yw8/vysor34.jpg> Apple iOS & Android mirroring
 <https://i.postimg.cc/Njg6Xx3V/vysor33.jpg> Preparing Vysor on device
 <https://i.postimg.cc/xjz3V8Gs/vysor32.jpg> ScrCpy vs Vysor PC mirror 
 <https://i.postimg.cc/k4K8dZqv/vysor31.jpg> Random MAC address is static
 <https://i.postimg.cc/nchSVcmS/vysor30.jpg> Static/Reserved IP address
 <https://i.postimg.cc/XqrD5Hqm/vysor29.jpg> Removing Apple iTunes crap
 <https://i.postimg.cc/KYbVWDp3/vysor28.jpg> Nuking Apple shitware 1 by 1
 <https://i.postimg.cc/MGbkZFfY/vysor27.jpg> The bloatware is everywhere
 <https://i.postimg.cc/hP6R2xqV/vysor26.jpg> iTunes crapware won't install
 <https://i.postimg.cc/fTy57WSY/vysor25.jpg> Best iOS drivers installed
 <https://i.postimg.cc/3wmtyL46/vysor24.jpg> Apple Device working properly
 <https://i.postimg.cc/tCvS8nGr/vysor23.jpg> iPad is connected to Win10
 <https://i.postimg.cc/Kz7pW9mL/vysor22.jpg> Apple Win10 iOS drivers suck
 <https://i.postimg.cc/QdVPMkqG/vysor21.jpg> Apple iPad on Win10 over USB 
 <https://i.postimg.cc/J7cSYhhg/vysor20.jpg> Classic Apple error 2502
 <https://i.postimg.cc/yxP5DL5B/vysor19.jpg> Classic Apple error 2503
 <https://i.postimg.cc/V6X28fWJ/vysor18.jpg> Apple Mobile Device Support
 <https://i.postimg.cc/ZqB1wF9F/vysor17.jpg> Install Apple AMDS engine
 <https://i.postimg.cc/Jzdf3dhz/vysor16.jpg> Classic Apple Error Code 2503
 <https://i.postimg.cc/c4TyCJyY/vysor15.jpg> Apple Mobile Device Support
 <https://i.postimg.cc/SRhF22xL/vysor14.jpg> Connect over the Internet
 <https://i.postimg.cc/bv4jPFXB/vysor13.jpg> Vysor Camera virtual webcam
 <https://i.postimg.cc/XvPnJY5x/vysor10.jpg> Vysor Windows Virtual Camera
 <https://i.postimg.cc/wxL9qHjc/vysor11.jpg> Vysor searches for Android/iOS
 <https://i.postimg.cc/2S2zsw8s/vysor09.jpg> Classic Apple Error code 2503
 <https://i.postimg.cc/sg6r6gTy/vysor12.jpg> Vysor easily finds Android
 <https://i.postimg.cc/yYCYcxbb/vysor08.jpg> Apple Mobile Device Support 
 <https://i.postimg.cc/Y2WCvYbF/vysor07.jpg> iOS requires Apple AMDS kluge
 <https://i.postimg.cc/ydJYXZKw/vysor06.jpg> Remote mirror over the net
 <https://i.postimg.cc/d0V03fxQ/vysor05.jpg> Vysor Internet mirroring
 <https://i.postimg.cc/XY3qSqKC/vysor04.jpg> Vysor ADB USB setup switches
 <https://i.postimg.cc/v8gc5pHc/vysor03.jpg> Vysor remote sharing
 <https://i.postimg.cc/V6TPYG3h/vysor02.jpg> Vysor console operation
 <https://i.postimg.cc/QNwjsCDM/vysor01.jpg> Vysor Android/iOS PC mirroring

Only the trolls claim I troll.
As you have to actually troll to be called a troll.

Just desiring privacy from robotic aggregation, while you may believe
nobody has that right of privacy, does not make my valuable posts trolls.

However, it can be said that responding to your incessant trolls, may
count, so stop trolling this newsgorup with your off-content bullshit.

Stick to the technical subject so we don't need to defend against your
incessant trolls.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#197999

On 2026-09-08 19:20, Maria Sophia wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> I strongly dislike that he is using a woman's name, so I refuse to call
>> him by that.
> 
> Hi Carlos,
> 
> Since almost nobody on these technical newsgroups are females, IMHO, I
> think I'll use Maria only for a few years and change it to, oh, Sally.
> 
> That would be another clear and obvious indication that I'm not hiding for
> even a moment FROM YOU, but from robot header aggregation tools, which is
> more and more of a problem even as I recognized the issue two decades ago.
> 
> And while I get why you associate nymshifting with the disgusting trolls,
> you need to take an elementary course in Logic (or Occam's Razor at least).
> 
> A person has to rob a bank to be called a disgusting bank robber, right?
> Just putting a mask on his face for privacy does not make him a criminal.
> 
> In fact, your disgusting habit of absurdly claiming everyone who uses a
> fake name is a troll is starting to grate on me as it's disingenuous.

No, I never said such a thing. Citation, please?

...

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#197997

Lane,

> Why do you call him/her Arlen if his/her preferred name is Maria?

Arlen Holder is a so-called nym-shifter, who changes his nym 
once-in-a-while - ostensibly so he cannot be tracked (by the people who 
scrape the newsgroups for information).

Although you jumped on the gender identity bandwagon, Arlens current name 
has got zero to do with it.  Current, as in the last number of years he has 
gone thru a number of them.  Male as well as female ones.

Something you could have known if you would either have visited these 
newsgroups a bit longer or just had asked for it.

> Are you from the 70s?

You know what a hypocrite is ?   Thats someone who tells someone not to do 
{something}, while doing that {something}  themselves.   You know, the "do 
as I say, not as I do" kind of person.

In your case : being judgemental while telling someone else not to be so. 
Funny, that.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#197998

R.Wieser wrote:
> Lane,
> 
>> Why do you call him/her Arlen if his/her preferred name is Maria?
> 
> Arlen Holder is a so-called nym-shifter, who changes his nym
> once-in-a-while - ostensibly so he cannot be tracked (by the people who
> scrape the newsgroups for information).
> 
> Although you jumped on the gender identity bandwagon, Arlens current name
> has got zero to do with it.  Current, as in the last number of years he has
> gone thru a number of them.  Male as well as female ones.
> 
> Something you could have known if you would either have visited these
> newsgroups a bit longer or just had asked for it.

How would I have asked for this information differently than I did, 
receiving exactly what I wanted to know? Would my reputation have 
remained sparkling if I had asked for it in your manner?

>> Are you from the 70s?
> 
> You know what a hypocrite is ?   Thats someone who tells someone not to do
> {something}, while doing that {something}  themselves.   You know, the "do
> as I say, not as I do" kind of person.

I've found that people who mangle transwomen by calling them male 
pronouns are the manure of the earth. It's a repeating pattern that I've 
noticed.

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#198000

On 2026-09-08 19:36, Lane W wrote:
> R.Wieser wrote:
>> Lane,
>>
>>> Why do you call him/her Arlen i

...

> I've found that people who mangle transwomen by calling them male 
> pronouns are the manure of the earth. It's a repeating pattern that I've 
> noticed.
> 

Not the case. I would respect that.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#198003

Lane,

> How would I have asked for this information differently than I did,

Really ?   You cannot think of *any* other way ?   Thats hard to imagine.

But hey, what about "Why are you responding to Maria as if she's named Arlen 
?" or even "I though you where responding to Maria, but you are using the 
name Arlen.  How come ?".

I'm sure that if you think *really hard* you can come up with some others 
yourself.

>>> Are you from the 70s?
>>
>> You know what a hypocrite is ?   Thats someone who tells someone not to
>> do {something}, while doing that {something}  themselves.   You know, the 
>> "do as I say, not as I do" kind of person.
>
> I've found that people who mangle transwomen by calling them male pronouns 
> are the manure of the earth. It's a repeating pattern that I've noticed.

Thats exactly why you are judgemental : you read something and directly 
think the worst of whomever wrote it - and jump on the barricades, already 
attacking.

It ofcourse doesn't help that you seem to be one of those "brainiacs" who 
thinks that *all* persons of a certain age are automatically bad - ofcourse 
with zero support for such a conclusion.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

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#198004

Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>>> On 2026-09-07, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>>>>> To me it's fairly intuitive that if someone has taken the unusual step
>>>>> of explicitly marking their network as "hidden", then its location
>>>>> should not be included in these databases - especially given the fact
>>>>> that the "_nomap" SSID method doesn't work for "hidden" networks.
>>>> 
>>>> I guess the challenge here is how can they know not to add the MAC
>>>> address if the SSID with the "_nomap" request invisible.
>>> 
>>> That's the core of the issue - I would guess that Android devices are
>>> only uploading BSSIDs to the Google database when they see that Access
>>> Point broadcast an SSID, and that SSID doesn't end with "_nomap".
>>> 
>>> iPhones on the other hand, I would guess are uploading BSSIDs to the
>>> Apple database as soon as they see that Access Point broadcasting
>>> anything, regardless of whether they have seen an SSID from it.
>>> 
>>> If it works the way I am suggesting, then it means that Google's
>>> database would automatically exclude "hidden" networks, and Apple's
>>> wouldn't - and not only that, Apple would have no way of immediately
>>> excluding them. They would need to issue updated iPhone software,
>>> and then wait until almost all iPhones in the world that were still
>>> in use were using the new software.
>>> 
>>>>>> Related: What did Arlen (aka Maria) achieve? That Apple agreed to
>>>>>> remove all hidden and _nomap entries, or that they removed only his
>>>>>> entry?
>>>>> 
>>>>> My impression is that as a result of Maria's communications with them,
>>>>> Apple updated their documentation to note that "hidden" networks are
>>>>> still listed in their database, and removed Maria's own BSSID(s) from
>>>>> the database.
>>>> 
>>>> That's purely a correlation. It could be a coincidence.  And is there
>>>> any evidence that the documentation did change? We only have his say so.
>>> 
>>> We can't prove what prompted Apple to change their documentation, but
>>> we certainly can prove that it did indeed change, using archive.org.
>>> In December 2025 the page did not mention hidden networks, and today
>>> it does.
>>> 
>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20251221213139/https://support.apple.com/en-ie/102515
>>> https://support.apple.com/en-ie/102515
>> 
>> I agree. And I did the same. The fact that Arlen couldn't very easily
>> evidence his assertion, despite my challenge above, speaks volumes.
>> 
> Why do you call him/her Arlen if his/her preferred name is Maria? Are 
> you from the 70s?

Because he - and it is a he - used to very regularly change his nym. For a
long period the nyms were always a variation on Arlen, so it stuck. This
year he had an epiphany and realised that nymshifting was unnecessary for
more than a year. Weird, I know, but that's where we are with him. It is
unknown why he chose to change gender this year where all previous names
were male. 

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#197970

(Snipping for brevity for inline replies, sorry that this removes the
context, but in this case it probably is preferrable, please refer to
the parent post for the full context:)

(And thanks for the post, Jon, it does indeed make things clearer to
understand at least for me.)

On 2026-09-06, Jon Ribbens wrote:

> The purpose of these databases of BSSID locations is to assist devices
> such as mobile phones in locating themselves. Maybe the device is
> indoors and cannot get a GPS signal, but also my understanding is that
> GPS can fix an accurate location much faster if it starts already
> knowing vaguely where on the planet it is.

There was already a mechanism to do this at least since "3G" using
mobile data connections, right?

> 2. Apple's API is trivial to abuse.
>    (My opinion: high priority.)

(I think this is one of the aspects that was made only implicit in most
of the thread, and it would have helped if it was made more explicit...)

[...]
> My opinion: the lack of restrictions on the Apple API is unacceptable,
> and if Apple are unwilling to do something about it then governments
> should pass laws (or enforce existing laws) to make them to do so.

I'm leaning towards existing laws being more than sufficient, in
developed countries.

> My opinion: it would be difficult for Apple to rapidly switch completely
> to using an API more similar to Google's API, since this would remove
> functionality from devices running old software. However they could
> certainly aim to do this eventually, and there are steps they could take
> immediately to improve the situation (e.g. rate limiting, and not
> providing so many additional answers when asked about an individual
> BSSID). I cannot see any obvious reason why they couldn't make
> significant improvements almost immediately.

Not to mention Apple is not necessarily known for allowing older systems
to remain in use, so it'd be curious if they chose precisely a situation
like this to behave differently.

-- 
Nuno Silva

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#197973

On 2026-09-07 11:47, Nuno Silva wrote:
> (Snipping for brevity for inline replies, sorry that this removes the
> context, but in this case it probably is preferrable, please refer to
> the parent post for the full context:)
> 
> (And thanks for the post, Jon, it does indeed make things clearer to
> understand at least for me.)
> 
> On 2026-09-06, Jon Ribbens wrote:
> 
>> The purpose of these databases of BSSID locations is to assist devices
>> such as mobile phones in locating themselves. Maybe the device is
>> indoors and cannot get a GPS signal, but also my understanding is that
>> GPS can fix an accurate location much faster if it starts already
>> knowing vaguely where on the planet it is.
> 
> There was already a mechanism to do this at least since "3G" using
> mobile data connections, right?

Yes. It was possible since GSM was invented, but somebody had to figure 
out that, and design a methodology. Initially, it involved a written 
request to the mobile network provider to do calculations using dumps of 
logs from each tower that could be involved.

And at some time it was automated, and phones could find their rough 
location instantly.



>> 2. Apple's API is trivial to abuse.
>>     (My opinion: high priority.)
> 
> (I think this is one of the aspects that was made only implicit in most
> of the thread, and it would have helped if it was made more explicit...)
> 
> [...]
>> My opinion: the lack of restrictions on the Apple API is unacceptable,
>> and if Apple are unwilling to do something about it then governments
>> should pass laws (or enforce existing laws) to make them to do so.
> 
> I'm leaning towards existing laws being more than sufficient, in
> developed countries.
> 
>> My opinion: it would be difficult for Apple to rapidly switch completely
>> to using an API more similar to Google's API, since this would remove
>> functionality from devices running old software. However they could
>> certainly aim to do this eventually, and there are steps they could take
>> immediately to improve the situation (e.g. rate limiting, and not
>> providing so many additional answers when asked about an individual
>> BSSID). I cannot see any obvious reason why they couldn't make
>> significant improvements almost immediately.
> 
> Not to mention Apple is not necessarily known for allowing older systems
> to remain in use, so it'd be curious if they chose precisely a situation
> like this to behave differently.

Oh, they have to support their existing supported hardware at least, and 
phase them out slowly. Years.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#197976

On 2026-09-07 13:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2026-09-07 11:47, Nuno Silva wrote:
>> (Snipping for brevity for inline replies, sorry that this removes the
>> context, but in this case it probably is preferrable, please refer to
>> the parent post for the full context:)
>>
>> (And thanks for the post, Jon, it does indeed make things clearer to
>> understand at least for me.)
>>
>> On 2026-09-06, Jon Ribbens wrote:
>>
>>> The purpose of these databases of BSSID locations is to assist devices
>>> such as mobile phones in locating themselves. Maybe the device is
>>> indoors and cannot get a GPS signal, but also my understanding is that
>>> GPS can fix an accurate location much faster if it starts already
>>> knowing vaguely where on the planet it is.
>>
>> There was already a mechanism to do this at least since "3G" using
>> mobile data connections, right?
> 
> Yes. It was possible since GSM was invented, but somebody had to figure 
> out that, and design a methodology. Initially, it involved a written 
> request to the mobile network provider to do calculations using dumps of 
> logs from each tower that could be involved.
> 
> And at some time it was automated, and phones could find their rough 
> location instantly.

I asked ChatGPT for more info. Take with a pinch of salt.

Q: How was it found that the location of a mobile phone (GSM) could be 
calculated from the data logged by nearby towers? I think it was a 
doctorate paper?

A: Yes — and I think I know what phenomenon you’re remembering. It 
wasn’t a single discovery in one doctoral thesis, but there were 
important early academic/industry papers and theses showing that GSM 
network measurements could be turned into a geographical position.

The key insight is surprisingly simple: a GSM phone is constantly 
measuring the surrounding base stations, not just the tower it is 
currently connected to.
What information is available?

A GSM handset/network can provide things such as:

     Cell ID — which base station/cell the phone is using.
     RSSI / received signal strength — how strongly it receives 
neighbouring cells.
     Timing Advance (TA) — effectively an estimate of how far the phone 
is from its serving base station, in discrete distance steps.
     Measurements from several neighbouring base stations.

If you know where the base stations are, these measurements constrain 
where the phone can be.

For example, if tower A gives a Timing Advance corresponding roughly to 
2 km:

                          Phone
                            *
                           / \
                          /   \
                         /     \
                        /       \
                       /  ~2 km  \
                      /           \
                     O             \
                 Tower A            \

The phone should lie somewhere around a circle of roughly 2 km radius.

With another tower:

                    O Tower B
                   / \
                  /   \
                 /     \
                /       \
               /    *    \       ← possible position
              /           \
             /             \
            O---------------

          Tower A

And with three or more measurements, you can narrow it down considerably.
But there's an even more interesting version

You don't necessarily need an explicit distance measurement.

The phone reports the signal strengths of surrounding cells. Because 
radio signals generally get weaker with distance, you can construct an 
approximate relationship like:

     signal strength → estimated distance → geographical position

This is called RSS-based positioning, and with three or more stations it 
can resemble trilateration.

However, radio propagation is messy — buildings, reflections, terrain, 
antenna patterns, etc. mean that RSS isn't a reliable direct distance 
measurement. That's why another approach became very important: 
fingerprinting.

You can drive around an area recording:

Location       Cell A   Cell B   Cell C   Cell D
--------------------------------------------------
40.123, -3.21   -55      -72      -81      -90
40.124, -3.21   -58      -69      -79      -88
40.125, -3.21   -63      -65      -76      -91
...

Then, when an unknown phone produces:

Cell A = -60
Cell B = -67
Cell C = -77
Cell D = -89

you look for the place in the database whose "radio signature" most 
closely matches it.

That's GSM fingerprinting, and it's actually a very powerful idea.
And your memory of a doctorate/thesis is plausible

There are quite a few doctoral works in this area.

One particularly relevant early work is Christopher Drane, Malcolm 
Macnaughtan and Craig Scott, “Positioning GSM Telephones,” published in 
IEEE Communications Magazine in 1998. Interestingly, the authors say 
they had achieved accurate position measurements using GSM as early as 
May 1996.

There is also Jian Zhu's 2006 Georgia Tech PhD dissertation, 
Indoor/Outdoor Location of Cellular Handsets Based on Received Signal 
Strength, specifically investigating handset positioning from the 
received signal strengths of surrounding base stations.

And a later PhD dissertation, Zaenab Shakir (Florida Institute of 
Technology, 2020), deals explicitly with geolocation from signal level 
measurements and Timing Advance inside the cellular network.

There is also a particularly interesting doctoral thesis by Lauri Wirola 
on the evolution of cellular positioning standards, covering methods 
based on cell coverage combined with time delay, time difference and 
received signal strength.
One subtle point

If what you remember is specifically "someone discovered that you could 
reconstruct the location of a phone from the logs of the towers, without 
GPS", then I suspect you're remembering something slightly different 
from ordinary GSM triangulation.

There are techniques where the network's existing logs/measurements — 
serving cell, neighbouring-cell measurements, Timing Advance, handovers, 
etc. — can be accumulated over time and used to infer a person's 
route/location.

That gets particularly interesting because you don't need to know the 
phone's GPS position at all. The cellular network itself becomes a kind 
of enormous, distributed positioning system.

If you tell me roughly when you encountered the paper (1990s / 2000s / 
2010s) or whether it was about GSM specifically, mobile-phone 
surveillance, or anonymised phone records, I can try to track down the 
exact PhD paper you're remembering.


Sources:

     PPubMed Central (PMC)
     A Modular Localization System as a Positioning Service for Road 
Transport - PMC
     CCiteSeerX
     Positioning GSM Telephones
     GGeorgia Tech Repository
     Indoor/Outdoor Location of Cellular Handsets Based on Received 
Signal Strength
     SScholarship Repository
     "Geolocation Based on Signal Level Measurement and Time Advance 
Inside " by Zaenab Shakir
     TTampere University Research Portal
     Studies on location technology standards evolution in wireless 
networks - Tampere University Research Portal

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#197978

On 2026-09-07, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> On 2026-09-07 13:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2026-09-07 11:47, Nuno Silva wrote:
>>> On 2026-09-06, Jon Ribbens wrote:
>>>
>>>> The purpose of these databases of BSSID locations is to assist devices
>>>> such as mobile phones in locating themselves. Maybe the device is
>>>> indoors and cannot get a GPS signal, but also my understanding is that
>>>> GPS can fix an accurate location much faster if it starts already
>>>> knowing vaguely where on the planet it is.
>>>
>>> There was already a mechanism to do this at least since "3G" using
>>> mobile data connections, right?
>>
>> Yes. It was possible since GSM was invented, but somebody had to
>> figure out that, and design a methodology. Initially, it involved a
>> written request to the mobile network provider to do calculations
>> using dumps of logs from each tower that could be involved.
>>
>> And at some time it was automated, and phones could find their rough
>> location instantly.
>
> I asked ChatGPT for more info. Take with a pinch of salt.

(What you included is interesting too, but to be clear what I was
referring to is the "supl" APN type, which AFAIK is intended to be used
for positioning information? But it's not something I've researched at
all, the extent of my knowledge was searching to try to understand the
values in that comma-separated list many years ago.)

-- 
Nuno Silva

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#197975

Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[...]
> On 2026-09-06, Jon Ribbens wrote:
> 
> > The purpose of these databases of BSSID locations is to assist devices
> > such as mobile phones in locating themselves. Maybe the device is
> > indoors and cannot get a GPS signal, but also my understanding is that
> > GPS can fix an accurate location much faster if it starts already
> > knowing vaguely where on the planet it is.
> 
> There was already a mechanism to do this at least since "3G" using
> mobile data connections, right?

  But, unless I misunderstand the context, the device might not *have* a
"mobile data connection". For example a SIM-less tablet/laptop/etc.
might still want to determine its position. 

[...]

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#197959

Jon Ribbens wrote:
>> I will not only tell you exactly where that router is located (I even wrote
>> the Python code to give me a dot on an OSM map for your location) but I can
>> trivially easily forever track that router's location forever, without any
>> restrictions on my part (which is the point of the paper, after all).
> 
> Yes, I know that too now, after reading the paper. I downloaded the
> code at https://github.com/darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator (which
> was originally uploaded in 2015) and ran it locally with my own AP
> MAC address and confirmed it showed my home location very accurately.

Hi Jon Ribbens,

You are intelligent, and I've been a bit brutal to those who have been
idiotically trolling this newsgroup without even reading the subject line,
so I want to first thank you for actually reading the paper & testing it.

 *Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
 <https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975>

You are at the stage where you ran the apple_bssid_locator.py script
and you found that your own BSSID/GPS pair was clearly in the results.

I had run the same code as you just did, where I was horrified a dozen
of mine were in the results since _all_ of them had _nomap on the SSID!

Luckily, I live near to plenty of Silicon Valley executives, where 
my next-door neighbor happens to an executive in the Apple Maps group.

When I brought the topic up to him, he at first considered it a likely 
bug, and then his engineers tried to snow me by saying the issue 
wasn't reproducible, but I kept hammering him on an honest answer.

In the end, he said I could only talk to the lawyers, who, in the end, 
said they'd "fix" the documentation, which, let's be clear, is the topic.

Apple did fix the documentation.
Apple has no intention of honoring what EVERY other company already honors!

Subsequently, I had discussions with Daniel Veditz and Brian Krebs, and 
they agreed with the tests, so at this point, there isn't much we can do.

At this point, you seem to be the only one who displays any indication 
that they understood the topic of this paper & what it means for privacy
(given you ran the python code and it clearly told you where you lived).

I appreciate that you followed up by running the apple_bssid_locator.py
script, where I went another step further to modify that script so that
it not only reports a single output, but the next nearest 400 BSSIDs.

With the code below and the code I posted in response to Keith Roberts
who claimed, apparently, that you hadn't run the code you did run, 
you can literally track any router BSSID location anywhere in the world.

Forever... 

Here is the improved apple_bssid_locator.py for you to test, where I 
simply ask of you to run it, and for you to explain to the newsgroups
what it does, as people seem to be saying I can't explain things well.

Maybe you can do better than I at explaining what this code does?

  #!/usr/bin/env -S uv run --script
  # -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
  
  # C:\app\os\python\apple_bssid_locator\apple_bssid_locator.py
  # Queries Apple WPS database for GPS:BSSID location pairs
  # Implementation based on https://github.com/hubert3/iSniff-GPS 
  #
  # Usage: apple_bssid_locator.py 11:22:33:AA:BB:CC 
  # Usage: apple_bssid_locator.py 11:22:33:AA:BB:CC --all
  # Usage: apple_bssid_locator.py 11:22:33:AA:BB:CC --map
  #
  # Changelog:
  # v1p0 20251205 - Initial version from apple_bssid_locator.py
  # v1p1 20251214 - Added logging to results.txt
  # v1p2 20251215 - Timestamped results.txt to avoid overwrites
  # v1p3 20251219 - Limited output to 6 decimal places
  # v1p4 20251219 - Added raw integer output alongside converted decimals
  # v1p5 20251222 - Fixed raw to decimal conversion (divide by 100 Million)
  
  import argparse
  import requests
  import webbrowser
  import AppleWLoc_pb2
  
  def parse_arguments():
      parser = argparse.ArgumentParser()
      parser.add_argument("bssid", type=str, help="display the location of the bssid")
      parser.add_argument("-m", "--map", help="shows the location on google maps", action='store_true')
      parser.add_argument("-a", "--all", help="shows all results returned, not just the requested one", action='store_true')
      args = parser.parse_args()
      return args
  
  def format_bssid(bssid):
      return ':'.join(e.rjust(2, '0') for e in bssid.split(':'))
  
  def query_bssid(bssid, output_file="results.txt"):
      apple_wloc = AppleWLoc_pb2.AppleWLoc()
      wifi_device = apple_wloc.wifi_devices.add()
      wifi_device.bssid = bssid
      apple_wloc.unknown_value1 = 0
      apple_wloc.return_single_result = 0   # request ALL results
      serialized_apple_wloc = apple_wloc.SerializeToString()
      length_serialized_apple_wloc = len(serialized_apple_wloc)
  
      headers = {'User-Agent':'locationd/1753.17 CFNetwork/889.9 Darwin/17.2.0'}
      data = b"\x00\x01\x00\x05"+b"en_US"+b"\x00\x13"+b"com.apple.locationd"+b"\x00\x0a"+b"8.1.12B411"+b"\x00\x00\x00\x01\x00\x00\x00" + bytes((length_serialized_apple_wloc,)) + serialized_apple_wloc
      r = requests.post('https://gs-loc.apple.com/clls/wloc', headers=headers, data=data)
  
      apple_wloc = AppleWLoc_pb2.AppleWLoc()
      apple_wloc.ParseFromString(r.content[10:])
  
      # Build dictionary of results
      results = {}
      with open(output_file, "w") as f:
          for wifi_device in apple_wloc.wifi_devices:
              if wifi_device.HasField('location'):
                  raw_lat = wifi_device.location.latitude
                  raw_lon = wifi_device.location.longitude
                  lat = raw_lat * 1e-8
                  lon = raw_lon * 1e-8
                  mac = format_bssid(wifi_device.bssid)
                  results[mac] = (lat, lon, raw_lat, raw_lon)
                  # Write both raw integers and converted decimals (8 decimal places)
                  f.write(f"{mac}\t{raw_lat}\t{raw_lon}\t{lat:.8f}\t{lon:.8f}\n")
  
      print(f"Saved {len(results)} entries to {output_file}")
      return results
  
  def main():
      args = parse_arguments()
      print("Searching for location of bssid: %s" % args.bssid)
      results = query_bssid(args.bssid)
  
      # Determine which BSSIDs to process
      bssids_to_process = results.keys() if args.all else [args.bssid.lower()]
  
      found = False
      for bssid in bssids_to_process:
          if bssid in results:
              lat, lon, raw_lat, raw_lon = results[bssid]
              if lat == -180.0 and lon == -180.0:
                  continue  # Skip entries that were not found
              if found:
                  print()
              print(f"BSSID: {bssid}")
              print(f"Raw latitude integer: {raw_lat}")
              print(f"Raw longitude integer: {raw_lon}")
              print(f"Latitude (degrees): {lat:.8f}")
              print(f"Longitude (degrees): {lon:.8f}")
              if args.map:
                  url = f"http://www.google.com/maps/place/{lat:.8f},{lon:.8f}"
                  webbrowser.open(url)
              found = True
      if not found:
          print("The bssid was not found.")
  
  if __name__ == '__main__':
      main()
  
  # end of C:\app\os\python\apple_bssid_locator\apple_bssid_locator.py

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#197914

On Sep 4, 2026 at 8:34:25 PM EDT, "Jon Ribbens" <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu>
wrote:

> On 2026-09-05, Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> This is about privacy.
>>>> Not security.
>>> 
>>> This is about the *perception* of privacy. Like telling people they
>>> don't have to worry about closing their curtains, they just need to
>>> close their eyes -- if they can¢t see the people outside looking in,
>>> then those looking in can't see them!
>> 
>> Hi Lawrence,
>> 
>> I say with all respect that your statement is too wrong to accept as is.
>> What you just said, I've heard a thousand times before, from many people.
>> 
>> And yet, it's no different than what I've heard by asking the guy next to
>> me at the gas pump since the 1960's why he puts premium in a Honda Civic.
>> 
>> For over five decades, people have been parroting what someone told them.
>> None of them actually understand a word that they're obviously parroting.
>> 
>> Same here...
>> 
>> Again, I respect you for your technical acumen which is greater'n mine.
>> But I can't tell if you know privacy differences between these situations:
>>    a. iPhone owner happens to walk by my house
>>    b. Android owner happens to walk by my house
>> 
>> Do you know the difference in terms of what happens, or not, with respect
>> to my unique AP BSSID & GPS location (both of which are exactly my house)?
>> 
>> I do.
>>    A. So does Apple.
>>    B. So does Mozilla. And Google.
>> 
>> Mozilla respects a hidden access point broadcast (i.e., it's set to null).
>> So does Google (surprisingly).
>>    i. But not Apple.
>>   ii. And yet, Apple loudly & vociferously proclaims to care about privacy.
>> 
>> That's the part that is the most hurtful.
>> Apple brazenly lies, with a huge "what me?" seemingly innocent smile.
>> 
>> Yet, Apple immediately removed my BSSID/GPS from their WPS database.
>> Because they know what I know about the lack of privacy in that regard.
>> 
>> It may well be I'm the only one in the world who is honored so by Apple.
>> But that's not my point as I care about everyone's privacy. Not just mine.
>> 
>> Another question for you, Lawrence, again, because I respect your acumen.
>> 
>> Do you know the difference between these two situations:
>>   a. iPhone owner happens to walk by my house & it uploads my BSSID/GPS?
>>   b. Android owner happens to walk by my house & it uploads my BSSID/GPS?
>> 
>> What happens then?
>> Do you know?
>> 
>> I do.
>> Anyone who can't answer those queries, can't possibly understand the issue.
> 
> Do you have any intention of letting anyone else know what the issue is?

There is no issue.  This person is a known Apple Troll whose only goal in life
is to "make Apple look bad".  

In today's episode, he is convinced that the SSID on a router can track you. 
So if you sell your old router AND the person who bought it does not change
the SSID, he thinks that proves that you have moved and now live at the
current address where the router is. 

Of COURSE, the person who bought it is going to change the SSID.  Or may even
keep the factory default because OF COURSE you are going to reset the router
to factory defaults when you sell it. AND what if you setup your NEW router
with the same SSID that you had on the old one?  What happens now?  Do I now
live in 2 places at once?

Either way, there is No Problem.

And what if I change the SSID of my router weekly?  Have 4 different people
come thru my address each month?

This whole thing is beyond absurd AND is typical of the BS this troll posts. 
Apple did not change ANYTHING "at his request".  Apple only removed his SSID
from their DB to get him to STFU and go away. 

He will reply with more gibberish and hand waving, claiming I don't understand
"the issue".  That is his standard M.O.

The last time I replied to a topic this moron started, he was asking "What
music playing apps do you use on iOS/iPadOS that are (1) free and (2) continue
to play when the screen shuts off".  He did not even know that the included
music playing app on iOS/iPadOS does both AND he did not even know what it was
called. Not to mention that click-wheel iPods from 2005 were doing this also.
 

In short, he knows NOTHING about Apple, iOS, iPhones or anything else even
vaguely related to Apple.  Look at his previous "PSA" on how to transfer files
from Windows to an iPad. He jumps thru multiple hoops by installing software
on both the Windows PC and the iPad. He does not know that the INCLUDED Files
App on iOS/iPadOS can connect to Windows PCs. And Macs and Linux. And can
transfer files in both directions. 

Again, all in his goal of making Apple "look bad". But he so fucking stupid
that he does not realize that it is only himself who looks bad.

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#197916

Nick Charles wrote:
> In short, he knows NOTHING about Apple, iOS, iPhones or anything else

Heh heh heh... 

While I realize Apple religious zealots will attack people personally
because they defend the mothership to the death, no matter what, without
ever even understand the issue at hand, what matters for this thread, is we
discussed this at length on Apple ngs using the *old* Apple documentation.

We reproduced the work of researchers from Levin & Rye in this paper
 *Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
 <https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975>

We posted the python scripts.
And we chose a location in Louisiana to track router movements by BSSID.
And we listed the results, by BSSID, GPS and home address.
We quite easily found the registered owners of each of those residences.

Do you remember that?
I do.

We proved that everything said in the paper above was correct, down to the
very fact that Apple let lil'ole'me collect tens of thousands of
identifying pairs of BSSID's and GPS locations (which map to addresses).

We proved, even at that time, months ago, that anyone could track the
movements of that BSSID forever, from anywhere in the world, to anywhere
else in the world, without any protection whatsoever by Apple.

This is what the paper said would be the case.
And it was.

What's *different* is the paper did not cover hidden broadcast BSSIDs.
I did.

That's the test which Chris is talking about, and which Apple knows about.
  a. Apple _removed_ my BSSIDs _after_ I told them about this.
  b. And Apple _changed_ the documentation, _after_ I told them about this.

That's pretty good for someone whom the Apple trolls claims "knows NOTHING
about Apple", especially since I proved every single claim that I had made.
-- 
Of the million things we need to know about privacy, most people know 3.

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#197919

Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> writes:
[...]
> Heh heh heh... 
>
> While I realize Apple religious zealots will attack people personally
[SNIP]

Can you please restrict this to newsgroups where it's relevant?

In particularly, there's in this thread nothing about Python or
Windows 10.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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#197925

Keith Thompson wrote:
> In particularly, there's in this thread nothing about Python or
> Windows 10.

The code supplied for you to run is Python which ran on Windows 10.
I know this because I got help in the code from Windows/Python ngs.

So, together, the Windows & Python newsgroup honed the working code.
Do you need me to supply the code for you again so you can run it?

One script will arbitrarily choose a BSSID, and then scrape the Apple WPS
database for that BSSID, and change it until it gets a hit (takes seconds).

Once we have a BSSID in the Apple WPS database, another python script runs
periodically to ring a bell when that BSSID moves more than 100 meters.

We proved that earlier this year by moving the three old Linksys routers
from one section of town to another to simulate people moving from one
apartment to another (where it could track them anywhere in the world).

In addition, another python script run from Windows 10 exactly reproduced
the findings of the research paper, only for thousands of BSSID's, not
billions (which I simply do not have the time or patience to gather).
 *Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
 <https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.14975>

The fact every BSSID/GPS pair can be obtained by anyone at any time with
zero restrictions can be proven by anyone who runs that python code.

If that doesn't bother you, then start thinking about what we proved by
running the same Python code on Windows 10 to show the hidden broadcast
BSSIDs not only show up in the unprotected Apple WPS database, but Apple
refuses to solve that privacy problem (which even Google will honor).

When I discussed this with the Apple Maps' executive, the answer came back,
literally from Apple lawyers, was that they'll change the documentation.

And they did.
 <https://support.apple.com/en-ie/102515>
-- 
Anyone with a Windows 10 computer & Python can reproduce all of the above.

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#197935

Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> writes:
> Keith Thompson wrote:
>> In particularly, there's in this thread nothing about Python or
>> Windows 10.
>
> The code supplied for you to run is Python which ran on Windows 10.
> I know this because I got help in the code from Windows/Python ngs.

There is no Python code in this thread or in the article you
cited on arxiv.org.  I have seen no discussion of the Python
language.  Your first article that started this thread included
a Windows batch file.  That batch file does invoke "python.exe
apple_bssid_locator.py" (something I didn't even notice at first)
but that Python script has not been posted here.  You did offer
to provide a Python script (presumably that one) upon request.
That doesn't make this a discussion of Python.

The comp.lang.python newsgroup is for discussion of the Python
language.  A vague reference to some Python script about which
you've said nothing beyond its name does not qualify.

This thread constitutes most of the recent traffic in
comp.lang.python.

Please stop.

> So, together, the Windows & Python newsgroup honed the working code.
> Do you need me to supply the code for you again so you can run it?

You haven't supplied it once.  If you did, I personally would not be
interested in running it, but it might at least be topical in
comp.lang.python *if* anyone actually discusses the code.

[...]

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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