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Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists

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Date Thu, 23 Oct 2014 02:31:57 +0100
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Subject Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists
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On 2014-10-23 01:10, Seymore4Head wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 11:05:08 +1100, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>
>>Seymore4Head wrote:
>>
>>> Those string errors were desperate attempts to fix the "append" error
>>> I didn't understand.
>>
>>Ah, the good ol' "make random changes to the code until the error goes away"
>>technique. You know that it never works, right?
>>
>>Start by *reading the error message*, assuming you're getting an error
>>message. I'm the first person to admit that Python's error messages are not
>>always as clear as they should be, especially syntax errors, but still
>>there is a lot of information that can be gleamed from most error messages.
>>Take this attempt to use append:
>>
>>py> mylist.append(23)
>>Traceback (most recent call last):
>>  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>>NameError: name 'mylist' is not defined
>>
>>That tells me that I have forgotten to define a variable mylist. So I fix
>>that:
>>
>>py> mylist = 23
>>py> mylist.append(23)
>>Traceback (most recent call last):
>>  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>>AttributeError: 'int' object has no attribute 'append'
>>
>>
>>That tells me that I can't append to a int. After googling for "Python
>>append" I learn that I can append to a list, so I try again:
>>
>>py> mylist = []
>>py> mylist.append(23)
>>py> print(mylist)
>>[23]
>>
>>
>>Success!
>>
>>If you are familiar with other programming languages, it might help to think
>>of append() as being like a procedure in Pascal, for example. You call
>>append() with an argument, but don't expect a return result.
>>
>>Technically, *all* functions and methods in Python return something, even if
>>just the special value None, which can lead to "Gotchas!" like this one:
>>
>>py> mylist = mylist.append(42)  # Don't do this!
>>py> print(mylist)  # I expect [23, 42] but get None instead.
>>None
>>
>>Oops. One of the small annoyances of Python is that there is no way to tell
>>ahead of time, except by reading the documentation, whether something is a
>>proper function that returns a useful value, or a procedure-like function
>>that returns None. That's just something you have to learn.
>>
>>The interactive interpreter is your friend. Learn to experiment at the
>>interactive interpreter -- you do know how to do that, don't you? If not,
>>ask. At the interactive interpreter, if a function or method returns a
>>value, it will be printed, *except for None*. So a function that doesn't
>>print anything might be procedure-like, and one which does print something
>>might not be:
>>
>>py> mylist = [1, 5, 2, 6, 4, 3]
>>py> sorted(mylist)  # proper function returns a value
>>[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]
>>py> mylist.sort()  # procedure-like function returns None
>>py> print(mylist)  # and modifies the list in place
>>[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]
>
> I am going to get around to learning the interpreter soon.
>
Why wait?

You're trying to learn the language _now_, and checking things
interactively will help you.

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Thread

I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 16:30 -0400
  Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2014-10-22 16:57 -0400
    Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 17:04 -0400
      Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2014-10-22 14:35 -0700
        Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 17:38 -0400
  Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-22 22:28 +0100
  Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 18:30 -0400
    Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 18:32 -0400
    Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-22 23:55 +0100
      Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 19:26 -0400
        Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-23 00:44 +0100
          Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 20:02 -0400
            Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-10-23 02:29 +0100
            Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 11:37 +1000
              Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 21:52 -0400
            Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2014-10-22 19:58 -0700
              Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 23:05 -0400
              Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-22 20:16 -0700
              Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-10-23 02:31 -0400
    Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-10-23 00:09 +0100
    Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2014-10-23 00:10 -0700
      Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-10-23 09:23 -0400
        Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-23 10:00 -0400
          Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-10-23 20:23 -0400
      Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-23 09:53 -0400
    Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 09:15 +0000
      Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-23 10:04 -0400
        Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 15:55 +0000
          Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-23 13:01 -0400
            Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-23 13:07 -0400
              Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 13:39 -0600
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-23 16:15 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-23 16:44 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-10-23 22:03 +0100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2014-10-23 19:13 -0700
              Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-10-23 23:14 -0400
              Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 14:32 +1100
            Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 21:56 -0700
              Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 10:38 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 01:51 +1100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 11:04 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 02:13 +1100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 08:56 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 10:35 -0600
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 10:10 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 12:37 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 03:47 +1100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 09:56 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 13:03 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists "Albert Visser" <albert.visser@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 19:18 +0200
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 13:23 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 10:42 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 13:42 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 11:52 -0600
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 14:15 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 14:20 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-24 19:40 +0100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 15:07 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 21:49 +0000
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2014-10-24 23:46 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 08:17 -0600
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-10-25 14:47 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2014-10-24 11:57 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 15:09 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2014-10-24 12:25 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 15:33 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2014-10-24 12:55 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 16:00 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 21:19 +0000
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 17:35 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 23:23 +0000
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-10-25 14:37 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-24 19:33 +0100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 09:54 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 13:04 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 10:17 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-10-24 18:09 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 18:27 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 16:01 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-10-24 20:27 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 20:42 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 11:05 -0600
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 04:10 +1100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2014-10-24 23:04 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 20:37 +0000
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 16:58 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-10-24 21:07 +0000
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 15:11 -0600
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 23:21 +0000
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 19:48 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 21:48 +0000
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 18:14 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-10-25 15:01 +0000
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 20:51 +0000
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2014-10-24 19:16 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 22:41 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-25 08:25 +0100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-10-25 15:10 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-10-25 14:23 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-25 14:42 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-10-25 18:48 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-26 00:25 +0100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-10-26 01:08 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-10-26 17:44 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-10-26 20:57 -0400
  Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-22 22:43 +0000
    Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 19:11 -0400
      The “trials” in “trial and error” should be as simple as possible (was: I am out of trial and error again  Lists) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-10-23 10:59 +1100
      Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-10-23 11:05 +1100
        Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 20:10 -0400
          Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-10-23 02:31 +0100
            Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 21:35 -0400
              Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-22 21:57 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-23 08:20 +0100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-23 10:01 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 01:56 -0600
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-23 09:09 +0100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 06:42 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-23 10:03 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 08:35 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists giacomo boffi <pecore@pascolo.net> - 2014-10-23 16:25 +0200
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-23 10:29 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 16:00 +0000
              Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists giacomo boffi <pecore@pascolo.net> - 2014-10-23 16:40 +0200
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-23 10:46 -0400
                Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists giacomo boffi <pecore@pascolo.net> - 2014-10-24 17:56 +0200
      Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-23 09:21 +0000
  Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> - 2014-10-23 07:51 -0700
  Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-24 08:05 +0100
    Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 10:47 -0400
      Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2014-10-24 22:06 +0100
  Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-24 09:12 +0100
    Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 10:48 -0400
  Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 18:26 -0400
  Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 18:58 -0400
    Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 16:27 -0700
      Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 19:48 -0400
        Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 19:57 -0400
          Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-10-25 01:20 +0100
            Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 20:37 -0400
              Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2014-10-25 11:52 +1100
        Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 20:46 -0700
          Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 21:09 -0700
            Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-10-25 15:25 +1100
              Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 22:40 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 16:49 +1100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 22:55 -0700
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 17:03 +1100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-10-25 18:44 +1100
                Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 10:24 -0700
                Side-effects [was Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-10-26 17:12 +1100
                Re: Side-effects [was Re: I am out of trial and error again Lists] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-10-26 17:42 +1100
          Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists giacomo boffi <pecore@pascolo.net> - 2014-10-27 22:26 +0100
    Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-10-25 00:27 +0100
    Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-24 23:35 +0000
  Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-10-24 20:15 -0400
    Re: I am out of trial and error again  Lists Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-10-25 22:15 +0000

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