Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.prolog > #14912

The Blunder: “constraint programming” companies in France 1984–1996 (Was: Difference between W-Grammars and DCG Transform)

Show all headers | View raw

Hi,

What makes the Prolog community probably so
dumbed down, concerning parsing and language theory.
Is possibly the blunder of focusing on

“constraint programming” in the 80s and 90s.
So the Gen-X and later generations has become
clueless about parsing and language theory.

Alain Colmerauer lists in his China talk:

- PrologIA
- ILOG
- COSYTEC

But maybe dumbos like Julio Di Egidio
<julio@diegidio.name> are the exception? The
problem roots deeper. Not only has the Prolog

community become dumbed down, about to
use DCGs in production, it also doesn't trust
a single Prolog system to do it efficiently

to have it used in production, like the realization
of a Prolog system itself. Somehow methods and
tools to realize efficient DCGs in Prolog are

missing. Most DCG attempts that one sees succumb
to some declarative nonsense, creating exponentially
many spurious choice points, you find rarely

somebody mastering the Art.

Bye

Mild Shock schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> I didn't unlock the Metamorphoses Paper yet,
> its still behind a paywall for me. But
> a Paper about W-Grammars is available.
> 
> The Paper about W-Grammars is from
> Alain Colmerauers website again.
> While a W-Grammar rule of the form:
> 
> X |-> Y
> 
> Leads mathematically to a rewrite rule:
> 
> V,X,W ==> V,Y,W
> 
> A DCG Transform of the form:
> 
> P,Y --> X,P
> 
> Leads mathematically to a rewrite rule:
> 
> V,*,X,W ==> V,Y,*,W
> 
> Where * is a kind of replacement cursor.
> So in DCG Transform there is no comming back
> to match and replace a previous position again.
> 
> Thats why in my NetFish Transducer, I need
> "cascading", basically repeatedly applying
> the DCG Transforms by iteration,
> 
> until a kind of fixpoint is reached.
> 
> Bye
> 
> See also:
> 
> W-Grammar, Chastellier & Colmerauer (1968)
> http://alain.colmerauer.free.fr/alcol/ArchivesPublications/Wgrammar/Wgrammar.pdf 
> 
> 
> Mild Shock schrieb:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I only rediscovered a little bit that DCG has
>> also semi-context, and that when using non-terminals
>> in semi-contexts, these act like what
>>
>> was Meta-Grammars in W-Grammar, 1967–1968.
>> W-Grammars with Meta-Grammars were basically
>> Semi-Thue systems, but one needs to pay attention,
>>
>> the todays DCG cannot directly implement them:
>>
>>  From natural language processing to Prolog
>> http://alain.colmerauer.free.fr/alcol/ArchivesTransparents/ChinaApril2011/NatLanguageProlog.pdf 
>>
>>
>> What later came was Q-System, 1968–1970, French,
>> 1971–1973, Prolog, 1973–1976 and Prolog II,
>> 1977–1982. An early shift to CLP(X) was dif/2
>>
>> which already appeared in Prolog II. That todays
>> Prolog commmunity is clueless about the grammar
>> and transform aspect is really sad.
>>
>> Bye
>>
>> Mild Shock schrieb:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Only morons waste time with regex when they have Prolog!
>>> Its amazing, since Alain Colmerauer was already
>>> juggling with a kind of transducers:
>>>
>>> "We present some very general grammars in which
>>> each re-writing rule is of the type: replace such
>>> and such sequence of trees by such and such another
>>> sequence of trees."
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225124810
>>>
>>> Still the Prolog community is to stupid to
>>> transduce CR, CR LF and LF into LF. Thats quite a
>>> feat. BTW, this should do using DCG semi-contexts:
>>>
>>> replace, [0'\n] --> [0'\r, 0'\n], replace.
>>> replace, [0'\n] --> [0'\r], replace.
>>> replace, [0'\n] --> [0'\n], replace.
>>> replace, [X] --> [X], replace.
>>> replace --> [].
>>>
>>> Works on my side:
>>>
>>> ?- replace("foo\rbar\r\nbaz", _L), atom_codes(A, _L).
>>> A = 'foo\nbar\nbaz'
>>>
>>> Now optimize it to produce 0'\n as early as
>>> possible and use a state machine, so that you
>>> can implement it low level in your streams.
>>>
>>> Have Fun!
>>>
>>> Bye
> 

Back to comp.lang.prolog | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

ISO Prolog and yet another stinking pile of crap Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2025-10-10 23:33 +0200
  What about the <NEWLINE> ? (Was: ISO Prolog and yet another stinking pile of crap) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-11 10:35 +0200
    Re: What about the <NEWLINE> ? (Was: ISO Prolog and yet another stinking pile of crap) Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2025-10-11 13:08 +0200
      Metamorphosis Grammars by Alain Colmerauer (Was: What about the <NEWLINE> ?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-12 00:35 +0200
        Compact DCG Transducer by Dogelog Player (Was: Metamorphosis Grammars by Alain Colmerauer) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-12 00:55 +0200
          Did Picat, Minizinc, etc.. dumb down Prolog? (Was: Compact DCG Transducer by Dogelog Player) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-12 01:06 +0200
        Re: Metamorphosis Grammars by Alain Colmerauer (Was: What about the <NEWLINE> ?) Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2025-10-12 01:28 +0200
          Solve the Bootstrapping Problem: Self Hosting Systems (Was: Metamorphosis Grammars by Alain Colmerauer) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-12 04:28 +0200
        From natural language processing to Prolog [Beijing, April 8, 2011] (Re: Metamorphosis Grammars by Alain Colmerauer (Was: What about the <NEWLINE> ?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-13 09:11 +0200
        From natural language processing to Prolog [Beijing, April 8, 2011] (Re: Metamorphosis Grammars by Alain Colmerauer (Was: What about the <NEWLINE> ?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-13 09:11 +0200
          Difference between W-Grammars and DCG Transform (Was: From natural language processing to Prolog [Beijing, April 8, 2011]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-13 09:23 +0200
            The Blunder: “constraint programming” companies in France 1984–1996 (Was: Difference between W-Grammars and DCG Transform) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-13 09:34 +0200
  Gradual Refinement: AI Memo 39 (Was: ISO Prolog and yet another stinking pile of crap) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2025-10-12 05:00 +0200

csiph-web