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Groups > comp.lang.php > #12349 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2013-12-22 11:05 -0800 |
| Last post | 2014-01-03 15:43 -0500 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 93 — 19 participants |
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ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-12-22 11:05 -0800
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 14:46 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 15:17 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 15:38 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 15:47 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 16:04 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 16:09 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 16:20 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 16:34 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 12:54 +1100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-12-22 20:48 -0800
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 07:58 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 17:38 +1100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 07:57 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 10:11 +1100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 19:59 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 12:14 +1100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:02 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 15:40 +1100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-12-24 12:28 +0100
c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-24 08:49 -0500
Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 09:35 +1100
Re: c Graham Hobbs <ghobbs@cdpwise.net> - 2013-12-24 19:35 -0500
Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-25 00:08 -0500
Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 20:41 +1100
[EOD] Re: c Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-12-25 11:15 +0100
Re: [EOD] Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 23:29 +1100
Re: [EOD] Re: c The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-25 12:48 +0000
Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 17:46 +1100
Re: c Graham Hobbs <ghobbs@cdpwise.net> - 2013-12-25 09:24 -0500
Re: c Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 22:51 -0500
Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 08:03 -0500
Re: c Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 12:40 -0500
Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 12:46 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 22:46 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 14:54 +1100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:06 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 15:21 +1100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 08:04 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 12:32 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 12:47 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-31 08:23 +1100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Doug Miller <doug_at_milmac_dot_com@example.com> - 2013-12-30 19:45 +0000
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Ricardo Palomaes <rpmdisguise-java@nowhere.com> - 2013-12-30 19:20 +0100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-30 18:34 +0000
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 14:27 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-22 22:26 +0100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:17 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2013-12-22 16:11 -0800
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:08 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 17:36 -0400
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-30 22:13 +0000
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 22:09 -0400
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-31 11:30 +0000
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-31 08:11 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-01 14:20 +0000
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:05 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2014-01-02 14:48 +1100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:57 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 04:04 -0400
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:54 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 04:09 -0400
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:54 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 09:18 -0400
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:45 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-23 13:25 +0100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:27 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-30 14:38 +0100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-12-30 09:36 -0800
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-31 01:26 +0100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:23 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:19 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-02 12:36 +0100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2014-01-02 09:36 -0800
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-02 21:06 +0100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 14:48 +0000
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:59 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 21:07 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 21:10 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-31 09:44 -0400
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-23 07:22 -0600
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:20 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-25 13:56 -0400
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2013-12-31 10:52 -0600
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Evan Platt <evan@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> - 2013-12-31 11:50 -0800
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-31 17:54 -0400
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2013-12-31 19:33 -0600
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 17:37 -0400
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:46 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-02 19:34 +1100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:43 -0500
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-03 20:19 +1100
Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 15:43 -0500
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| From | Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-30 12:47 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <l9sbjk$787$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #12445 |
On 12/30/2013 12:32 PM, The well-known TROLL Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 12/30/2013 8:04 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >> On 12/29/2013 10:46 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>> On 12/22/2013 4:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >>>> On 12/22/2013 4:20 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>>>> On 12/22/2013 4:09 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >>>>>> On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >>>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hey everyone, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various >>>>>>>>>>> ORMs, >>>>>>>>>>> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch >>>>>>>>>>> systems to >>>>>>>>>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to >>>>>>>>>>> solve >>>>>>>>>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the >>>>>>>>>>> core >>>>>>>>>>> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core >>>>>>>>>>> business code. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if >>>>>>>>>>> they've >>>>>>>>>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they >>>>>>>>>>> use. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs: >>>>>>>>>>> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance) >>>>>>>>>>> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around >>>>>>>>>>> 2006) >>>>>>>>>>> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after >>>>>>>>>>> Hibernate, >>>>>>>>>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what >>>>>>>>>>> did >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a >>>>>>>>>>> flame >>>>>>>>>>> war, >>>>>>>>>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which >>>>>>>>>>> used >>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off >>>>>>>>>>> applications to >>>>>>>>>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of >>>>>>>>>>> changes >>>>>>>>>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is there a PHP question in there? I don't see one... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP >>>>>>>>> ORM's could be included in discussion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I still don't see a PHP question here. I see some product >>>>>>>> questions - >>>>>>>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate >>>>>>>> for a >>>>>>>> PHP language newsgroup. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group >>>>>>> for a specific library is not a good choice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in >>>>>>> different ways of database access from PHP is needed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or >>>>>>> comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm >>>>>>> would be even better if such exists. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate. There you >>>>>> have >>>>>> people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's. >>>>> >>>>> ORM's are language specific. So it would need to be a PHP ORM group >>>>> to cover PHP. >>>>> >>>>> Does one exist? >>>>> >>>>>> Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an >>>>>> ORM, >>>>>> and if they have, they have very limited experience. >>>>> >>>>> That depends on the language. >>>>> >>>>> In languages like Java and C# it would be >90% that have used an ORM. >>>>> >>>>> It is probably much less in PHP as ORM's are not as widely used >>>>> in the PHP world. >>>>> >>>>> But I suspect that Daniel even may be interested in knowing more >>>>> about why it is so. >>>> >>>> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p. But this >>>> does not belong in c.l.p. >>> >>> So you keep saying. >>> >>> But just saying it does not make it correct. >>> >>> I just googled and found the original comp.lang.php charter >>> from 2002. >>> >>> I says: >>> >>> "Since database connectivity is a large part of PHP, it will >>> be considered topical in comp.lang.php." >>> >>> Unless you have changed the charter since then (Google can not >>> find that, but that does not prove that it does not exist), then >>> that means that ORM in PHP is on topic for comp.lang.php. >> >> ORM is not database connectivity. > > If it is what the PHP code is using to access the database, then > it is providing database connectivity. > >> But you're too stoopid to understand >> the difference. > > Name calling is not a very convincing argumentation. > > Arne > > > > > The truth hurts, doesn't it? -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. jstucklex@attglobal.net ==================
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| From | "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-31 08:23 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <t6adnbPGiNMUeVzPnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@westnet.com.au> |
| In reply to | #12449 |
"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message news:l9sbjk$787$2@dont-email.me... > The truth hurts, doesn't it? Well yes Jerry, clearly it does. Your own precious charter which you keep referencing has shown you to be wrong (again). You have now reduced yourself to labelling Java programmers (and anyone who disagrees with you) as "stoopid" as well as being trolls. At least there is no doubt in anyone's mind who the "troll" is here in this hijacked thread. I conceded I went too far in highlighting your arrogance, ignorance and highly inappropriate behaviour but this in no way excuses your actions or justifies them. I also apologised. I suggest you take a slice of humble pie yourself. You *really* need to take-away from this that you do not own the internet or Usenet and if you continue to attempt your own form of censorship then others will have a problem with that. -- And loving it, -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct) _________________________________________________ Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
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| From | Doug Miller <doug_at_milmac_dot_com@example.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-30 19:45 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA2A69608DDCD5dougmilmaccom@78.46.70.116> |
| In reply to | #12445 |
Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote in news:52c1ae33$0$304$14726298@news.sunsite.dk: > On 12/30/2013 8:04 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >> But you're too stoopid to understand the difference. > > Name calling is not a very convincing argumentation. No, of course not, but it's the norm for Jerry whenever someone dares to disagree with him. Just do what most of the rest of us who've been around this group for a while have already done long ago: killfile him, and move on with your life.
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| From | Ricardo Palomaes <rpmdisguise-java@nowhere.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-30 19:20 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <l9sdh4$s5h$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #12442 |
El 30/12/13 14:04, Jerry Stuckle escribió: > ORM is not database connectivity. But you're too stoopid to > understand the difference. Just like some other Java programmers. NOW it is clear who's the troll.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-30 18:34 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <l9sebj$7ph$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #12450 |
On 30/12/13 18:20, Ricardo Palomaes wrote: > El 30/12/13 14:04, Jerry Stuckle escribió: >> ORM is not database connectivity. But you're too stoopid to >> understand the difference. Just like some other Java programmers. > > > NOW it is clear who's the troll. > > what took you so long... -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
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| From | Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-30 14:27 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <l9shfb$eb4$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #12451 |
On 12/30/2013 1:34 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 30/12/13 18:20, Ricardo Palomaes wrote: >> El 30/12/13 14:04, Jerry Stuckle escribió: >>> ORM is not database connectivity. But you're too stoopid to >>> understand the difference. Just like some other Java programmers. >> >> >> NOW it is clear who's the troll. >> >> > what took you so long... > Ah, the anonymous troll speaks up again! He's afraid to use his real name because he doesn't want us to find out he's neither a programmer or the electrical engineer he claims to be. And he doesn't like me because I've caught him too many times in his lies. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. jstucklex@attglobal.net ==================
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| From | Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-22 22:26 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <52b75900$0$9519$9b4e6d93@newsspool1.arcor-online.net> |
| In reply to | #12349 |
On 22.12.13 20.05, Daniel Pitts wrote: > This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php. The topic is unlikely to fit to php. F'up to java only. > I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs, > both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to there > limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve problems > that I've always felt should have been solved by the core libraries. > Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core business code. First of all you need to mention what ORMs are designed for. They are intended to make SQL databases suitable for OO programming style and/or non-relational data models. At the end OO expressions are turned into SQL and then to an execution plan. From that you can see that there is exactly one thing superfluous in this scenario: SQL. It is the bottleneck where all expressions must fit to. But it does not add any functionality, quite the contrary. It is just a emulation level for compatibility, like a SATA adapter enables a SATA drive to be used with an IDE port. You see, I am not really a friend of ORM. If a relational data model does not fit your needs, you first should consider to use a non relational database, rather than to normalize the data model to fit into a relational DB, and use an ORM to hide that from the application layer. ORMs are known to slow things down. I don't think that this is true in general. But the ORM layer makes some trivial looking expressions amazingly complex. So it is not that easy for the programmer to estimate the complexity of a code block, without knowledge about the entire ORM layer and the base data model in SQL. In fact I have redesigned many code parts because of this. There is one advantage. Adding attributes to the data model is quite simple with an ORM. No need to do redundant changes at many locations. But any document DB will provide this as well without the need for SQL and an ORM. Of course, if you are stuck with an SQL DB for some reason and you need to adapt to an OO application layer ORM might be a choice. But if the data model in the DB is not intended for ORM usage, you won't get happy, because there are almost always properties of the data model that are not correctly modeled in SQL. However, to get more detailed information you need to phrase your questions more precisely. What are your topics of interest? Performance? Maintainability? What kind of data model do you intend to use? Many entities? Or many properties? What kind of relations? Polymorphism? Marcel
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-29 23:17 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <52c0f3dc$0$298$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #12357 |
On 12/22/2013 4:26 PM, Marcel Müller wrote: > On 22.12.13 20.05, Daniel Pitts wrote: >> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs, >> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to there >> limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve problems >> that I've always felt should have been solved by the core libraries. >> Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core business code. > > First of all you need to mention what ORMs are designed for. They are > intended to make SQL databases suitable for OO programming style and/or > non-relational data models. At the end OO expressions are turned into > SQL and then to an execution plan. > From that you can see that there is exactly one thing superfluous in > this scenario: SQL. It is the bottleneck where all expressions must fit > to. But it does not add any functionality, quite the contrary. It is > just a emulation level for compatibility, like a SATA adapter enables a > SATA drive to be used with an IDE port. > > You see, I am not really a friend of ORM. If a relational data model > does not fit your needs, you first should consider to use a non > relational database, rather than to normalize the data model to fit into > a relational DB, and use an ORM to hide that from the application layer. Yes and no. If you could get non-relational databases with same transactional support, same tools, same vendor support etc.. And if all access to the database is OO based. Then that would be obvious. But the non-relational databases has not reached the same maturity level (as a summary term for the above) as relational databases. And it is common to have the same databases used by modern OO based software also to be used by non-OO legacy software (like 20 year old COBOL programs). > ORMs are known to slow things down. I don't think that this is true in > general. But the ORM layer makes some trivial looking expressions > amazingly complex. So it is not that easy for the programmer to estimate > the complexity of a code block, without knowledge about the entire ORM > layer and the base data model in SQL. In fact I have redesigned many > code parts because of this. Oh - I have seen my share of that. It should be mandatory for developers writing code using ORM to do some testing with the logging of actual SQL statements executed turned on. It reveals what is going on without having to know so much about the inside of the ORM. > Of course, if you are stuck with an SQL DB for some reason and you need > to adapt to an OO application layer ORM might be a choice. But if the > data model in the DB is not intended for ORM usage, you won't get happy, > because there are almost always properties of the data model that are > not correctly modeled in SQL. It seems as if very large parts of the Java, .NET and Ruby worlds are able to make it work. Arne
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| From | Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-22 16:11 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <mcmurtrie-3C7205.16113722122013@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au> |
| In reply to | #12349 |
In article <%JGtu.29103$Wm1.26832@fx17.iad>, Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> wrote: > Hey everyone, > > This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php. > > I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs, > both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to > there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve > problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core > libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core > business code. > > I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've > been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use. > > I've had experience with the following Java ORMs: > * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance) > * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006) > * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-) > > And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate, > including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features. > > > So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you > like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame war, > so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them. > > I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to > complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems. > > Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes > with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc... > > Thanks for your consideration, > Daniel. I don't like ORM utilities much because they rarely model all of the complex relationships and behaviors, for better or worse, that may exist in SQL. You end up spending at least as much time working around those limitations as time initially saved. Simpler data works fine in ORM, but simpler data is isn't the complex task ORM tries to solve. That leaves many ORM utilities as too enormous, too complex, too slow, and still a poor fit for SQL. I see ORM as potentially being an excellent fit for document stores but I have little experience with those.
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-29 23:08 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <52c0f1cd$0$297$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #12359 |
On 12/22/2013 7:11 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote: > That leaves many ORM utilities as too enormous, too complex, too slow, > and still a poor fit for SQL. I see ORM as potentially being an > excellent fit for document stores but I have little experience with > those. ???? What would be the point of an ORM that maps to a relational data model in connection with a non-relational database? Arne
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| From | Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-30 17:36 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <AHlwu.109100$tR7.48440@fx22.iad> |
| In reply to | #12359 |
On 12/22/2013 08:11 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote: > In article <%JGtu.29103$Wm1.26832@fx17.iad>, > Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> wrote: > >> Hey everyone, >> >> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php. >> >> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs, >> both positive and negative. I find that I often stretch systems to >> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve >> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core >> libraries. Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core >> business code. >> >> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've >> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use. >> >> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs: >> * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance) >> * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006) >> * Straight JDBC. Not exactly an ORM :-) >> >> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate, >> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features. >> >> >> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you >> like and hate about each of them? I'm not trying to start a flame war, >> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them. >> >> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to >> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems. >> >> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes >> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc... >> >> Thanks for your consideration, >> Daniel. > > I don't like ORM utilities much because they rarely model all of the > complex relationships and behaviors, for better or worse, that may exist > in SQL. You end up spending at least as much time working around those > limitations as time initially saved. > > Simpler data works fine in ORM, but simpler data is isn't the complex > task ORM tries to solve. > > That leaves many ORM utilities as too enormous, too complex, too slow, > and still a poor fit for SQL. I see ORM as potentially being an > excellent fit for document stores but I have little experience with > those. > To echo Arne's comment, an "excellent fit for document stores"??? How so? If the document is well-modeled by a relational calculus, why model it as a document? The current notion of a document is that of groups of semi-structured or non-structured data that don't necessarily adhere to any schema. Which is non-relational. There are fundamental differences here. I haven't encountered the problems you have, apparently, with ORMs. Data is complex, relational data is obviously just as complex, and any method of querying or manipulating real relational data is often hard. And considering major ORMs (not just Java), and the amount of educated effort that has gone into them, there are not many people who are well-advised to routinely use SQL directly if they have other options...not unless they are RDBMS specialists, and that's what they do for a living. Are you one? I'm not. I'll say this: Java language limitations have hurt Java ORMs, and it's not the fault of the ORM developers: I know a few of them. The JPA Criteria API is a sign of the apocalypse. It's unfortunately informed by folks who are both struggling with Java limitations and have experience with native implementations. C# LINQ and Scala Squeryl are conceptually light years ahead of Java ORMs. AHS -- When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-30 22:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <l9sr6p$189$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #12457 |
On 30/12/13 21:36, Arved Sandstrom wrote: > Data is complex, relational data is obviously just as complex, and any > method of querying or manipulating real relational data is often hard. > And considering major ORMs (not just Java), and the amount of educated > effort that has gone into them, there are not many people who are > well-advised to routinely use SQL directly if they have other > options...not unless they are RDBMS specialists, and that's what they do > for a living. Are you one? I'm not. Ah. So mining is complex and labour intesive, so lets not learn how to use an excavator, but instead develop tools to allow us to organise huge gangs of navvies with picks and shovels, because that's easier for us lazy shits than mastering the controls on a dump truck or draglinme excavator. If you cant manage relational databases, you shouldn't be messing with big data. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
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| From | Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-30 22:09 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <cHpwu.107684$Rt7.47128@fx27.iad> |
| In reply to | #12458 |
On 12/30/2013 06:13 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 30/12/13 21:36, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >> Data is complex, relational data is obviously just as complex, and any >> method of querying or manipulating real relational data is often hard. >> And considering major ORMs (not just Java), and the amount of educated >> effort that has gone into them, there are not many people who are >> well-advised to routinely use SQL directly if they have other >> options...not unless they are RDBMS specialists, and that's what they do >> for a living. Are you one? I'm not. > > Ah. So mining is complex and labour intesive, so lets not learn how to > use an excavator, but instead develop tools to allow us to organise huge > gangs of navvies with picks and shovels, because that's easier for us > lazy shits than mastering the controls on a dump truck or draglinme > excavator. > > If you cant manage relational databases, you shouldn't be messing with > big data. > > Identify yourself by your real name, doorknob. Maybe then you can put up or shut up. Learn spelling and grammar too - those skills help when you converse with adults. AHS -- When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-31 11:30 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <l9u9sk$lju$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #12460 |
On 31/12/13 02:09, Arved Sandstrom wrote: > On 12/30/2013 06:13 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 30/12/13 21:36, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>> Data is complex, relational data is obviously just as complex, and any >>> method of querying or manipulating real relational data is often hard. >>> And considering major ORMs (not just Java), and the amount of educated >>> effort that has gone into them, there are not many people who are >>> well-advised to routinely use SQL directly if they have other >>> options...not unless they are RDBMS specialists, and that's what they do >>> for a living. Are you one? I'm not. >> >> Ah. So mining is complex and labour intesive, so lets not learn how to >> use an excavator, but instead develop tools to allow us to organise huge >> gangs of navvies with picks and shovels, because that's easier for us >> lazy shits than mastering the controls on a dump truck or draglinme >> excavator. >> >> If you cant manage relational databases, you shouldn't be messing with >> big data. >> >> > Identify yourself by your real name, doorknob. Maybe then you can put up > or shut up. > > Learn spelling and grammar too - those skills help when you converse > with adults. > So no counter argument, just an ad hominem attack. You are Jerry Stuckle and I claim my $5. > AHS -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.
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| From | Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-31 08:11 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <l9ufp4$924$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #12461 |
On 12/31/2013 6:30 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 31/12/13 02:09, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >> On 12/30/2013 06:13 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> On 30/12/13 21:36, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>> Data is complex, relational data is obviously just as complex, and any >>>> method of querying or manipulating real relational data is often hard. >>>> And considering major ORMs (not just Java), and the amount of educated >>>> effort that has gone into them, there are not many people who are >>>> well-advised to routinely use SQL directly if they have other >>>> options...not unless they are RDBMS specialists, and that's what >>>> they do >>>> for a living. Are you one? I'm not. >>> >>> Ah. So mining is complex and labour intesive, so lets not learn how to >>> use an excavator, but instead develop tools to allow us to organise huge >>> gangs of navvies with picks and shovels, because that's easier for us >>> lazy shits than mastering the controls on a dump truck or draglinme >>> excavator. >>> >>> If you cant manage relational databases, you shouldn't be messing with >>> big data. >>> >>> >> Identify yourself by your real name, doorknob. Maybe then you can put up >> or shut up. >> >> Learn spelling and grammar too - those skills help when you converse >> with adults. >> > So no counter argument, just an ad hominem attack. > > You are Jerry Stuckle and I claim my $5. > > >> AHS > > ROFLMAO! This has got to be the stoopidest post you've ever made. And you've made some pretty stoopid ones! -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle JDS Computer Training Corp. jstucklex@attglobal.net ==================
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| From | "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-01 14:20 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <y82dnQYBNee2u1nPnZ2dnUVZ7qOdnZ2d@bt.com> |
| In reply to | #12461 |
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> > Learn spelling and grammar too - those skills help when you converse
> > with adults.
> >
> So no counter argument, just an ad hominem attack.
>
> You are Jerry Stuckle and I claim my $5.
It certainly wasn't the real Arved.
Faked headers too, from the look of it.
-- chris
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-01 22:05 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <52c4d76a$0$303$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #12482 |
On 1/1/2014 9:20 AM, Chris Uppal wrote: > The Natural Philosopher wrote: > >>> Learn spelling and grammar too - those skills help when you converse >>> with adults. >>> >> So no counter argument, just an ad hominem attack. >> >> You are Jerry Stuckle and I claim my $5. > > It certainly wasn't the real Arved. > > Faked headers too, from the look of it. It did not even show up at the NNTP server I use. I can only see it via Google. Arne
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| From | "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-02 14:48 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <C8udnZ1C1M81fFnPnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@westnet.com.au> |
| In reply to | #12488 |
"Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message news:52c4d76a$0$303$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... >> It certainly wasn't the real Arved. >> >> Faked headers too, from the look of it. > >I t did not even show up at the NNTP server I use. > > I can only see it via Google. No guessing required as to who the actual poster was... -- And loving it, -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct) _________________________________________________ Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
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| From | Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-01 21:57 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <52c4d5aa$0$303$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #12458 |
On 12/30/2013 5:13 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > If you cant manage relational databases, you shouldn't be messing with > big data. Why not? Hint: relational databases are not that common for big data. Arne
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| From | Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-02 04:04 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <L49xu.99374$Yb6.76415@fx29.iad> |
| In reply to | #12487 |
On 01/01/2014 10:57 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 12/30/2013 5:13 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> If you cant manage relational databases, you shouldn't be messing with >> big data. > > Why not? > > Hint: relational databases are not that common for big data. > > Arne > Arne, only because we are going through a phase of people trying to establish reputations and do some NIH. It's been sexy to refer to shards and documents and map-reduce and semi-structured data: fact is that for a number of years we've had quite a few people wasting their time describing structured data as non-structured data. By the way, my man, my youngest uncle was also called Arne. Happy NY. AHS -- When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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