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anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP?

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  anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-02 13:27 -0700
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> - 2013-02-02 14:57 -0600
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 03:45 -0700
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> - 2013-02-03 06:00 -0600
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2013-02-02 16:27 -0500
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 03:49 -0700
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-03 11:00 +0000
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2013-02-03 10:17 -0500
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 11:40 -0700
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2013-02-03 14:00 -0500
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Richard Yates <richard@yatesguitar.com> - 2013-02-03 13:56 -0800
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Martin <no@spam.invalid> - 2013-02-04 01:53 +0100
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-04 02:40 +0000
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-04 09:14 +0000
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 02:32 -0700
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2013-02-04 11:06 -0500
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 09:15 -0700
                    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-04 16:24 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2013-02-04 11:35 -0500
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 02:22 -0700
                          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-05 12:16 +0000
                            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 11:49 -0700
                              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-05 21:22 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-04 16:38 +0000
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in   PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-02-04 17:41 +0100
                          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in   PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-04 16:58 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 02:21 -0700
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-05 12:15 +0000
                          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 11:52 -0700
                            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-05 21:23 +0000
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-05 06:00 +0000
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-05 13:49 +0100
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-02-05 08:22 -0500
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@wizardstower> - 2013-02-05 08:50 -0600
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-04 08:40 +0100
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 02:49 -0700
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2013-02-02 15:43 -0600
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 03:57 -0700
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Keith D. Lee" <keithdlee2012@gmail.com> - 2013-02-02 22:20 +0000
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 04:13 -0700
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-04 12:23 +0000
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 08:57 -0700
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-05 14:04 +0100
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-05 13:59 +0100
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-02-03 10:58 +0100
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 04:20 -0700
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2013-02-03 12:44 +0100
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-03 11:50 +0000
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2013-02-03 13:47 +0100
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-03 13:23 +0000
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-04 11:32 +0000
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 11:43 -0700
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-03 13:08 +0000
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in   PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-02-03 14:49 +0100
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-02-03 08:16 -0600
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-02-03 15:28 +0000
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-02-03 09:39 -0600
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-02-03 17:50 +0100
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-02-03 11:24 -0600
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-03 19:25 +0000
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-02-03 20:25 +0000
                    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-03 21:47 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-02-03 16:32 -0600
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-03 22:59 +0000
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-04 00:21 +0000
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-04 11:46 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-02-03 23:13 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in    PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-02-04 17:21 +0100
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in    PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-04 16:28 +0000
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-02-03 14:26 -0600
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in   PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-04 11:37 +0000
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-03 13:17 +0000
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-04 08:38 +0100
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-04 09:04 +0000
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-04 10:29 +0100
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-04 09:34 +0000
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 03:06 -0700
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 03:01 -0700
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 09:08 -0700
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-02-04 17:34 +0100
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-04 16:44 +0000
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 02:36 -0700
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-02-05 01:49 -0800
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-05 15:03 +0000
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 12:07 -0700
                    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-05 20:22 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-05 22:27 +0000
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-06 00:06 +0000
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-06 04:32 -0700
                          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-02-06 11:50 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-06 04:22 -0700
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-06 15:37 +0000
                    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-05 22:13 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-02-05 23:38 +0000
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 02:26 -0700
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-05 10:31 +0000
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-05 13:41 +0100
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-05 12:56 +0000
                    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-05 14:08 +0100
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 12:24 -0700
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-05 20:14 +0000
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Aragorn <stryder@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-02-06 06:27 +0100
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> - 2013-02-06 19:48 -0600
                          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@wizardstower> - 2013-02-06 22:44 -0600
                            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? GooseMan <TheGoose@gonnagiveittothegander.org> - 2013-02-06 21:38 -0800
                            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-07 15:13 +0100
                            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> - 2013-02-10 08:09 -0600
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 12:10 -0700
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-05 21:51 +0000
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-05 22:32 +0000
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Meeh <meeh@i2pmail.org> - 2013-02-05 17:51 +0100
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 02:55 -0700
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-05 13:42 +0100
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 12:28 -0700
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-09 20:58 +0100

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#8266

On 05/02/13 09:22, crankypuss wrote:
> On 02/04/2013 09:35 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 04/02/13 16:15, crankypuss wrote:
>>>> On 02/04/2013 09:06 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <mostly, snipped>
>>>>
>>>>> To emulate what happens in the desktop environment on the web is
>>>>> not so
>>>>> easy.
>>>>
>>>> The world is in a sad state when people prefer code that was written
>>>> easy over code that was written right.
>>>
>>> well there you go. You had better start from scratch and design your own
>>> hardware then. And your own language and your own operating system.
>>>
>>> Engineering is never about Getting Things Right: only mathematicians
>>> have that luxury. For people in the Real World (TM) its a question of
>>> getting things good enough for purpose, by the shortest and least hard
>>> route.
>>>
>>> If that means engineering a 1501cc engine in, instead of 1500cc, because
>>> the difficulties of achieving the prefect Roundness of Wheels is
>>> absolute, then that's what we do.
>>>
>>> PHP is that route for simple web based apps. For anything else its
>>> largely not that useful.
>>>
>>> Accept it, and move on..
>>>
>>
>> IOW the right tool for the right job.
>>
>
> PHP is hardly "the right tool" for any job, but it can be used for more
> than simple web based apps.

"With additional hardware and software, you *can* use an Apple II to 
send a man to the moon"

-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#8283

On 02/05/2013 05:16 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/02/13 09:22, crankypuss wrote:
>> On 02/04/2013 09:35 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 04/02/13 16:15, crankypuss wrote:
>>>>> On 02/04/2013 09:06 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <mostly, snipped>
>>>>>
>>>>>> To emulate what happens in the desktop environment on the web is
>>>>>> not so
>>>>>> easy.
>>>>>
>>>>> The world is in a sad state when people prefer code that was written
>>>>> easy over code that was written right.
>>>>
>>>> well there you go. You had better start from scratch and design your
>>>> own
>>>> hardware then. And your own language and your own operating system.
>>>>
>>>> Engineering is never about Getting Things Right: only mathematicians
>>>> have that luxury. For people in the Real World (TM) its a question of
>>>> getting things good enough for purpose, by the shortest and least hard
>>>> route.
>>>>
>>>> If that means engineering a 1501cc engine in, instead of 1500cc,
>>>> because
>>>> the difficulties of achieving the prefect Roundness of Wheels is
>>>> absolute, then that's what we do.
>>>>
>>>> PHP is that route for simple web based apps. For anything else its
>>>> largely not that useful.
>>>>
>>>> Accept it, and move on..
>>>>
>>>
>>> IOW the right tool for the right job.
>>>
>>
>> PHP is hardly "the right tool" for any job, but it can be used for more
>> than simple web based apps.
>
> "With additional hardware and software, you *can* use an Apple II to
> send a man to the moon"
>

You know, regardless of my 'nym, I try to get along with folks.  You 
however seem to be the type of fellow that makes my teeth grind, the 
type that just does what he's told and tells others to do the same, the 
type of person who would, given his druthers, impede all progress in 
order to maintain the position his ego tells him he holds.  You and all 
the others like you who just take whatever happens to be on the shelf 
and use it as best they can to write the best software they can, which 
usually happens to be garbage because they're basing it on garbage, 
well, you are obsolete imo.


"All the Linux community wants is to create a really good, 
fully-featured, free operating system. If that results in Linux becoming 
a hugely popular OS, then that's great. If that results in Linux having 
the most intuitive, user-friendly interface ever created, then that's 
great. If that results in Linux becoming the basis of a multi-billion 
dollar industry, then that's great.

It's great, but it's not the point. The point is to make Linux the best 
OS that the community is capable of making. Not for other people: For 
itself."
	http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

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#8294

On 05/02/13 18:49, crankypuss wrote:
> On 02/05/2013 05:16 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 05/02/13 09:22, crankypuss wrote:
>>> On 02/04/2013 09:35 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 04/02/13 16:15, crankypuss wrote:
>>>>>> On 02/04/2013 09:06 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <mostly, snipped>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To emulate what happens in the desktop environment on the web is
>>>>>>> not so
>>>>>>> easy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The world is in a sad state when people prefer code that was written
>>>>>> easy over code that was written right.
>>>>>
>>>>> well there you go. You had better start from scratch and design your
>>>>> own
>>>>> hardware then. And your own language and your own operating system.
>>>>>
>>>>> Engineering is never about Getting Things Right: only mathematicians
>>>>> have that luxury. For people in the Real World (TM) its a question of
>>>>> getting things good enough for purpose, by the shortest and least hard
>>>>> route.
>>>>>
>>>>> If that means engineering a 1501cc engine in, instead of 1500cc,
>>>>> because
>>>>> the difficulties of achieving the prefect Roundness of Wheels is
>>>>> absolute, then that's what we do.
>>>>>
>>>>> PHP is that route for simple web based apps. For anything else its
>>>>> largely not that useful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Accept it, and move on..
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IOW the right tool for the right job.
>>>>
>>>
>>> PHP is hardly "the right tool" for any job, but it can be used for more
>>> than simple web based apps.
>>
>> "With additional hardware and software, you *can* use an Apple II to
>> send a man to the moon"
>>
>
> You know, regardless of my 'nym, I try to get along with folks.  You
> however seem to be the type of fellow that makes my teeth grind, the
> type that just does what he's told and tells others to do the same, the
> type of person who would, given his druthers, impede all progress in
> order to maintain the position his ego tells him he holds.  You and all
> the others like you who just take whatever happens to be on the shelf
> and use it as best they can to write the best software they can, which
> usually happens to be garbage because they're basing it on garbage,
> well, you are obsolete imo.
>

No, I am just a person who had to produce results to acceptable costs in 
acceptable timescales.

Something they don't teach computer scientists.


-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#8252

On Monday, February 4th, 2013, at 16:24:43h +0000,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Engineering is never about Getting Things Right

I would suggest that should be better stated as

"Engineering is never about Getting Things Perfect"

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#8253 — Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP?

Am 04.02.2013 17:38, schrieb J G Miller:
> On Monday, February 4th, 2013, at 16:24:43h +0000,
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> Engineering is never about Getting Things Right
> 
> I would suggest that should be better stated as
> 
> "Engineering is never about Getting Things Perfect"
> 
... because perfect does not exist with contradictory requirements.

/Str.

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#8255 — Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP?

On 04/02/13 16:41, M. Strobel wrote:
> Am 04.02.2013 17:38, schrieb J G Miller:
>> On Monday, February 4th, 2013, at 16:24:43h +0000,
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> Engineering is never about Getting Things Right
>>
>> I would suggest that should be better stated as
>>
>> "Engineering is never about Getting Things Perfect"
>>
> ... because perfect does not exist with contradictory requirements.
>

...whiuch completely sums up so much.
Viz 'how can you assure me that (nuclear power stations, or any other 
technology) is completely safe?

By not building it at all.

So no computers, cars electricity or anything. And by the way don't go 
outside or the germs might get you, and don't stay indoors because its 
also bad for you.


> /Str.
>


-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#8258

On 02/04/2013 09:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/02/13 16:15, crankypuss wrote:
>> On 02/04/2013 09:06 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>
>> <mostly, snipped>
>>
>>> To emulate what happens in the desktop environment on the web is not so
>>> easy.
>>
>> The world is in a sad state when people prefer code that was written
>> easy over code that was written right.
>
> well there you go. You had better start from scratch and design your own
> hardware then. And your own language and your own operating system.

One never knows, do one.  I'm not capable of designing my own hardware 
from scratch at present, the rest I've done at one time or another.

> Engineering is never about Getting Things Right: only mathematicians
> have that luxury. For people in the Real World (TM) its a question of
> getting things good enough for purpose, by the shortest and least hard
> route.

Oddly enough the piece of paper they gave me back when dinosaurs roamed 
the earth does not say anything about "Software Engineering" but it does 
appear to grant me a halfassed degree in "Computer Science", and there 
really is a difference.

> If that means engineering a 1501cc engine in, instead of 1500cc, because
> the difficulties of achieving the prefect Roundness of Wheels is
> absolute, then that's what we do.
>
> PHP is that route for simple web based apps. For anything else its
> largely not that useful.
>
> Accept it, and move on..
>

Take your own advice, son; I accepted it for many years, and I have 
moved on.

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#8265

On 05/02/13 09:21, crankypuss wrote:
> On 02/04/2013 09:24 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 04/02/13 16:15, crankypuss wrote:
>>> On 02/04/2013 09:06 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>>
>>> <mostly, snipped>
>>>
>>>> To emulate what happens in the desktop environment on the web is not so
>>>> easy.
>>>
>>> The world is in a sad state when people prefer code that was written
>>> easy over code that was written right.
>>
>> well there you go. You had better start from scratch and design your own
>> hardware then. And your own language and your own operating system.
>
> One never knows, do one.  I'm not capable of designing my own hardware
> from scratch at present, the rest I've done at one time or another.
>
>> Engineering is never about Getting Things Right: only mathematicians
>> have that luxury. For people in the Real World (TM) its a question of
>> getting things good enough for purpose, by the shortest and least hard
>> route.
>
> Oddly enough the piece of paper they gave me back when dinosaurs roamed
> the earth does not say anything about "Software Engineering" but it does
> appear to grant me a halfassed degree in "Computer Science", and there
> really is a difference.
>

I know. I've employed both. The one I sacked was a computer scientist.

>> If that means engineering a 1501cc engine in, instead of 1500cc, because
>> the difficulties of achieving the prefect Roundness of Wheels is
>> absolute, then that's what we do.
>>
>> PHP is that route for simple web based apps. For anything else its
>> largely not that useful.
>>
>> Accept it, and move on..
>>
>
> Take your own advice, son; I accepted it for many years, and I have
> moved on.


-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#8284

On 02/05/2013 05:15 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> I know. I've employed both. The one I sacked was a computer scientist.

Well you're really hot shit, fucktard; I retired out from under a bunch 
of morons just like you who are still contributing their portion of shit 
to the world toilet while I am off building the software that I see a 
need for.  Keep on doing what you're told with the tools you're told to 
use, it's all you're barely capable of.

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#8295

On 05/02/13 18:52, crankypuss wrote:
> On 02/05/2013 05:15 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> I know. I've employed both. The one I sacked was a computer scientist.
>
> Well you're really hot shit, fucktard; I retired out from under a bunch
> of morons just like you who are still contributing their portion of shit
> to the world toilet while I am off building the software that I see a
> need for.  Keep on doing what you're told with the tools you're told to
> use, it's all you're barely capable of.

No one tells me what tools to use.

I have the luxury of being able to choose the ones that suit the job to 
be done.



-- 
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to 
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the 
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are 
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a 
diminishing number of producers.

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#8257

On 2013-02-04, Jonathan N. Little <lws4art@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> However with the desktop app it keeps running with a pid to the 
> instance, the web app does not. To keep continuity with a web app you 
> need to employ session mechanism. It need some sort of a login and 
> logout or it gets quite complicated with DBs and files. A simple example:

I did some experimetation wuth a web server that ran forked
applications and kept the instances around communicating with them via
pipes, it was neat seeing what were originally desktop apps running
over a browser on a server 700km away.  development was abandonned.

>> It's pretty much the same thing, except that some websites don't do
>> squat about saving state-data for an individual user.  Some use PHP
>> "session" stuff to do that, where a session identifier is a token coming
>> in on each http request that allows that user's state-data to be
>> reloaded for the request.

yeah there was cheking for that stuff...

> To emulate what happens in the desktop environment on the web is not so 
> easy.

AJAX is a big help.

-- 
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

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#8269

crankypuss, 2013-02-04 10:32:

[...]
> The loop is basically the same except that its "top" gets rolled around
> to the middle and given a different name.  For a desktop-app the "top"
> is the guy hitting the enter key or clicking the mouse or whatever,
> that's the top of the "message loop".  For a web-app the browser
> recognizes a link-click and sends an http request.  It's the same thing
> unless you get fixated on the details to the point where you can't see
> the forest.  Look an X Windows application in enough detail and you'll
> see the same basic process with a different protocol used between the
> client and the server.  Steak or hamburger, it's all beef.

If you're a hammer every problem is just a nail...


-- 
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de

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#8276

On 2/5/2013 7:49 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
> crankypuss, 2013-02-04 10:32:
>
> [...]
>> The loop is basically the same except that its "top" gets rolled around
>> to the middle and given a different name.  For a desktop-app the "top"
>> is the guy hitting the enter key or clicking the mouse or whatever,
>> that's the top of the "message loop".  For a web-app the browser
>> recognizes a link-click and sends an http request.  It's the same thing
>> unless you get fixated on the details to the point where you can't see
>> the forest.  Look an X Windows application in enough detail and you'll
>> see the same basic process with a different protocol used between the
>> client and the server.  Steak or hamburger, it's all beef.
>
> If you're a hammer every problem is just a nail...
>
>

Well said, Arno!

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#8280

On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 13:49:55 +0100
Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:

> If you're a hammer every problem is just a nail...

I heard that as, "if all you have is a hammer every job looks like a
thumb."

Cybe R. Wizard
-- 
Registered GNU/Linux user # 126326
Registered Ubuntu User # 2136-deprecated

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#8229

crankypuss, 2013-02-03 11:49:

> On 02/02/2013 02:27 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
[...]
>> Because for the web is where PHP originated. Get data, do something,
>> done. Not really suited for event driven apps.
> 
> I have code that says you're mistaken.

In which way? How does your PHP code handle events without polling in an
endless loop?


-- 
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de

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#8235

On 02/04/2013 12:40 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
> crankypuss, 2013-02-03 11:49:
>
>> On 02/02/2013 02:27 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
> [...]
>>> Because for the web is where PHP originated. Get data, do something,
>>> done. Not really suited for event driven apps.
>>
>> I have code that says you're mistaken.
>
> In which way? How does your PHP code handle events without polling in an
> endless loop?
>
>

There's only two ways to handle repetitive events, interrupts and 
polling.  No modern operating system polls by using a hard spin-loop, 
and no application that isn't a total piece of crap ever implements a 
hard spin-loop without some kind of system-call that allows it to be set 
aside while the processor services another thread.  Whether your 
application contains a loop that has a system-call in it, or is 
rescheduled when an interrupt comes in, it's the same loop with its top 
rolled around and a different subroutine used to put it to sleep.  Hell, 
even if your application is so stupid that it's just branching to here, 
any modern operating system will time-swap it out and let somebody else 
have a shot at the processor.

So the answer depends somewhat on how one interprets "even driven".  All 
applications are event driven unless they are just doing hard 
computation, in/grind/out.  The techniques one uses to make the 
application do what's intended vary depending on details.  In other 
words it depends on what you want to do.  Polling is not bad if done 
properly, neither are interrupt-based mechanisms, look close enough and 
they're basically the same thing.

As for PHP being "not really suited for event driven apps" that seems 
kind of silly to me, but then most people think that calling ncurses to 
get a character means their application will have to sit there waiting 
until the ENTER key is pressed.  Sure, the ncurses call is blocking, but 
that doesn't mean you can't write a non-blocking subroutine that does 
something that's blocking; only threads get blocked, big deal.

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#8183

At Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:27:45 -0700 crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> wrote:

> 
> (Apologies for the cross-post.)
> 
> I don't like bash, haven't seen anything that crude since back in the 
> days when I was writing FORTRAN and BASIC, so I've been writing all of 
> my local applications in PHP.

Bash is 'Born Again Shell' and is just an extended flavor of the Bourne
Shell, which is truly very simple in many ways.  I don't think anyone
really considers bash seriously as something to write actual full-blown
applications in -- it never was (and is not) considered an 'application
programming language'.  It is more meant either for basic simple
scripts -- short hand for commonly / repeatedly used command sequences
or for writing wrappers around applications that need some special
environment (like mozilla firefox).  Tradionally, UNIX people write
their applications in C.  These days, C++ has replaced C for larger
applications in many ways.  Otherwise people use other high-level
languages, mostly scripting ones: Perl, Python (yech), Tcl(/Tk), Java,
XUL/JavaScript, etc.  (And yes, for major number crunching
applications, FORTRAN is used heavily as COBOL is used heavily in
business applications.)

> 
> The folks who frequent comp.lang.php seem to be pretty web-centric which 
> makes sense as far as that goes.  The folks who frequent the various 
> Linux fora seem pretty bash-centric which also makes sense as far as 
> that goes.
> 
> As an aside, I've been using Linux for long enough now to realize how 
> shell-centric it is as an operating system; I'm somewhat blown away by 
> that but it too makes its own kind of sense.

The shell is what makes the world go round... :-) The shell is like
connective tissue.  Not terribly exicting or useful on its own, but
without it, everything would fall apart.

> 
> Is there a forum where the other folks (presuming there are any) who 
> have been writing applications in PHP hang out?  Don't say "yeah dummy, 
> go to comp.lang.python" please, my homor quotient is maxed out for 
> today. <g>

Yeah, I don't like Python either.  Many people use Perl, but I consider
Perl something of a write-only language (Perl is the new APL).  *I* use
Tcl(/Tk) for desktop applications, both for non-GUI scripting and for
GUI applications (even rather major ones).  PHP is not really intended
for standalone *desktop* applications.  It was *specificly* designed
for Web Applications and has many *core* features specific for such
applications. I don't believe there are any GUI toolkits available for
php.

>                                                                                           

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933 / heller@deepsoft.com
Deepwoods Software        -- http://www.deepsoft.com/
()  ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   -- against proprietary attachments


                                                                                                           

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#8188

On 02/02/2013 02:43 PM, Robert Heller wrote:
> At Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:27:45 -0700 crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> (Apologies for the cross-post.)
>>
>> I don't like bash, haven't seen anything that crude since back in the
>> days when I was writing FORTRAN and BASIC, so I've been writing all of
>> my local applications in PHP.
>
> Bash is 'Born Again Shell' and is just an extended flavor of the Bourne
> Shell, which is truly very simple in many ways.  I don't think anyone
> really considers bash seriously as something to write actual full-blown
> applications in -- it never was (and is not) considered an 'application
> programming language'.  It is more meant either for basic simple
> scripts -- short hand for commonly / repeatedly used command sequences
> or for writing wrappers around applications that need some special
> environment (like mozilla firefox).

 From what I've seen, bash is commonly used for "applications" and in 
the process it's commonly pushed way beyond its limits by what appears 
to be the standard practice of not checking for errors.  Probably my 
glasses have lint stuck to them or something. <g>

> Tradionally, UNIX people write
> their applications in C.  These days, C++ has replaced C for larger
> applications in many ways.  Otherwise people use other high-level
> languages, mostly scripting ones: Perl, Python (yech), Tcl(/Tk), Java,
> XUL/JavaScript, etc.  (And yes, for major number crunching
> applications, FORTRAN is used heavily as COBOL is used heavily in
> business applications.)
>
>>
>> The folks who frequent comp.lang.php seem to be pretty web-centric which
>> makes sense as far as that goes.  The folks who frequent the various
>> Linux fora seem pretty bash-centric which also makes sense as far as
>> that goes.
>>
>> As an aside, I've been using Linux for long enough now to realize how
>> shell-centric it is as an operating system; I'm somewhat blown away by
>> that but it too makes its own kind of sense.
>
> The shell is what makes the world go round... :-) The shell is like
> connective tissue.  Not terribly exicting or useful on its own, but
> without it, everything would fall apart.

I doubt that "everything would fall apart" but it might get a bit wobbly 
until someone came up with some actual reliable bits to replace it.

>>
>> Is there a forum where the other folks (presuming there are any) who
>> have been writing applications in PHP hang out?  Don't say "yeah dummy,
>> go to comp.lang.python" please, my homor quotient is maxed out for
>> today. <g>
>
> Yeah, I don't like Python either.  Many people use Perl, but I consider
> Perl something of a write-only language (Perl is the new APL).  *I* use
> Tcl(/Tk) for desktop applications, both for non-GUI scripting and for
> GUI applications (even rather major ones).  PHP is not really intended
> for standalone *desktop* applications.  It was *specificly* designed
> for Web Applications and has many *core* features specific for such
> applications. I don't believe there are any GUI toolkits available for
> php.

Yeah, there is plenty (meaning, "nearly enough") available in the way of 
builtin functions, but PHP is web-oriented at least insofar as "echo" 
and headers go.

What I'm using for desktop applications is something I'm building that 
is (at present, anyway) based on ncurses.  Except for the bits that need 
to work with existing code, bits like nautilus scripts, and for that 
kind of thing I'm using zenity which rather sucks but it only needs to 
do a few simple things.

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#8184

All:
 What about Perl?
-- 
Sincerely,
Keith D. Lee

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#8190

On 02/02/2013 03:20 PM, Keith D. Lee wrote:
> All:
>   What about Perl?
>

Enjoy.  No reason not to go back to the predecessor of PHP.  That's 
where PHP came from, y'know.  Some fellow whose name I don't recall 
built it to do the things Perl wasn't set up for.  google "PHP history" 
there's a bit in wikipedia about it.

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