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Transitioning from Java/JSP (spring, struts, hibernate) to PHP (symfony).

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  Transitioning from Java/JSP (spring, struts, hibernate) to PHP (symfony). Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-05-07 11:37 -0700
    Re: Transitioning from Java/JSP (spring, struts, hibernate) to PHP (symfony). "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2012-05-07 21:18 +0200
      Re: Transitioning from Java/JSP (spring, struts, hibernate) to PHP (symfony). Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-05-07 13:03 -0700
        Re: Transitioning from Java/JSP (spring, struts, hibernate) to PHP (symfony). r.mariotti@fdcx.net - 2012-05-07 17:25 -0400
          Re: Transitioning from Java/JSP (spring, struts, hibernate) to PHP (symfony). Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-05-07 14:34 -0700
            Re: Transitioning from Java/JSP (spring, struts, hibernate) to PHP (symfony). The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2012-05-07 23:46 +0100
            Re: Transitioning from Java/JSP (spring, struts, hibernate) to PHP (symfony). Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2012-05-07 20:23 -0400

#5839 — Transitioning from Java/JSP (spring, struts, hibernate) to PHP (symfony).

Hello everyone,
I've been told we are changing our platform from one based in Java to 
one based in PHP.  I consider myself expert in Java and OOP, and I'm a 
little concerned about the transition to PHP.  Personally, I'm in a 
position where I can remove myself from the code-base (I'm starting to 
be in more of a management position).  However, I have always liked to 
know the details of what is being worked on.

What are the best resources for an expert programmer (with many 
different languages, idioms, and philosophies under his belt), to learn 
"clean" PHP.  Is developing in "pure" PHP significantly different than 
developing in symfony.

Also, a few concerns I have are related to performance.  One of the 
things our current architecture does is make multiple parallel HTTP 
requests to XML based APIs that provide the data.  I know PHP doesn't 
exactly support concurrency like this, but I'm wondering if there is 
some other way to manage this kind of process. It is easier in Java to 
create many worker threads that each make a HTTP request, but I can 
imagine in PHP doing something with a bunch of async IO and select 
calls. Is that feasible? Is there something already created for this?

What other tips do people have for performance and scalability?  Many of 
our applications serve more than 3 million requests per day, and we have 
many applications. I'd estimate our current platform as a whole serves 
300-500 sustained requests per second.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Daniel.

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#5840

Am 07.05.2012 20:37, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
> Hello everyone,
> I've been told we are changing our platform from one based in Java to one based in
> PHP.  I consider myself expert in Java and OOP, and I'm a little concerned about the
> transition to PHP.  Personally, I'm in a position where I can remove myself from the
> code-base (I'm starting to be in more of a management position).  However, I have
> always liked to know the details of what is being worked on.
> 
> What are the best resources for an expert programmer (with many different languages,
> idioms, and philosophies under his belt), to learn "clean" PHP.  Is developing in
> "pure" PHP significantly different than developing in symfony.

"best resources for an expert programmer" - is the php.net documentation. You will
fully understand everything there. PHP is an imperative scripting language taking
features from all the neighbors. You might find the OO aspects simple.

Symfony gives you a persistence framework, a CRUD generator, and and a clear
convention based configuration.

Without a framework - what many here are doing IMO - you would start to develop your
own solutions to the different patterns, creating your own framework. Not difficult
either.

> Also, a few concerns I have are related to performance.  One of the things our
> current architecture does is make multiple parallel HTTP requests to XML based APIs
> that provide the data.  I know PHP doesn't exactly support concurrency like this, but
> I'm wondering if there is some other way to manage this kind of process. It is easier
> in Java to create many worker threads that each make a HTTP request, but I can
> imagine in PHP doing something with a bunch of async IO and select calls. Is that
> feasible? Is there something already created for this?
> 
> What other tips do people have for performance and scalability?  Many of our
> applications serve more than 3 million requests per day, and we have many
> applications. I'd estimate our current platform as a whole serves 300-500 sustained
> requests per second.

Big question mark here. Some top sites are running PHP, by I would see the
environment you are used to as an upgrade path for PHP programmers with need for big
iron.

Very questionable decision to downgrade this way. Do they think PHP programmers are
cheaper? If they are, there is a risk that they are less skilled.

/Str.

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#5842

On 5/7/12 12:18 PM, M. Strobel wrote:
> Am 07.05.2012 20:37, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
>> Hello everyone,
>> I've been told we are changing our platform from one based in Java to one based in
>> PHP.  I consider myself expert in Java and OOP, and I'm a little concerned about the
>> transition to PHP.  Personally, I'm in a position where I can remove myself from the
>> code-base (I'm starting to be in more of a management position).  However, I have
>> always liked to know the details of what is being worked on.
>>
>> What are the best resources for an expert programmer (with many different languages,
>> idioms, and philosophies under his belt), to learn "clean" PHP.  Is developing in
>> "pure" PHP significantly different than developing in symfony.
>
> "best resources for an expert programmer" - is the php.net documentation. You will
> fully understand everything there. PHP is an imperative scripting language taking
> features from all the neighbors. You might find the OO aspects simple.
>
> Symfony gives you a persistence framework, a CRUD generator, and and a clear
> convention based configuration.
So, its a bit like Rails? From the docs I've seen, it seems to provide 
some good abstractions, but sometimes real-world use-cases don't fit 
abstractions in some frameworks.
>
> Without a framework - what many here are doing IMO - you would start to develop your
> own solutions to the different patterns, creating your own framework. Not difficult
> either.
I've developed many frameworks myself. That is (for better or worse) 
something our CTO wants us to get out of doing.
>
>> Also, a few concerns I have are related to performance.  One of the things our
>> current architecture does is make multiple parallel HTTP requests to XML based APIs
>> that provide the data.  I know PHP doesn't exactly support concurrency like this, but
>> I'm wondering if there is some other way to manage this kind of process. It is easier
>> in Java to create many worker threads that each make a HTTP request, but I can
>> imagine in PHP doing something with a bunch of async IO and select calls. Is that
>> feasible? Is there something already created for this?
>>
>> What other tips do people have for performance and scalability?  Many of our
>> applications serve more than 3 million requests per day, and we have many
>> applications. I'd estimate our current platform as a whole serves 300-500 sustained
>> requests per second.
>
> Big question mark here. Some top sites are running PHP, by I would see the
> environment you are used to as an upgrade path for PHP programmers with need for big
> iron.
Yup, that is the sentiment of many of the front-line developers here.
>
> Very questionable decision to downgrade this way. Do they think PHP programmers are
> cheaper? If they are, there is a risk that they are less skilled.

Preaching to the choir. The thing is, we are a large company with many 
branded sites.  I just happen to be in the department that needs the big 
guns, but the majority of the other sites don't require them.  The 
difficulty is in proving that's the case enough to justify our 
department alone being different.   Who knows, we've got enough talent 
here that maybe we'll turn the tide and make PHP more performance 
oriented ;-)


Well, thanks for the feedback.

Daniel.

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#5844

On Mon, 07 May 2012 13:03:25 -0700, Daniel Pitts
<newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> wrote:

>On 5/7/12 12:18 PM, M. Strobel wrote:
>> Am 07.05.2012 20:37, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> I've been told we are changing our platform from one based in Java to one based in
>>> PHP.  I consider myself expert in Java and OOP, and I'm a little concerned about the
>>> transition to PHP.  Personally, I'm in a position where I can remove myself from the
>>> code-base (I'm starting to be in more of a management position).  However, I have
>>> always liked to know the details of what is being worked on.
>>>
>>> What are the best resources for an expert programmer (with many different languages,
>>> idioms, and philosophies under his belt), to learn "clean" PHP.  Is developing in
>>> "pure" PHP significantly different than developing in symfony.
>>
>> "best resources for an expert programmer" - is the php.net documentation. You will
>> fully understand everything there. PHP is an imperative scripting language taking
>> features from all the neighbors. You might find the OO aspects simple.
>>
>> Symfony gives you a persistence framework, a CRUD generator, and and a clear
>> convention based configuration.
>So, its a bit like Rails? From the docs I've seen, it seems to provide 
>some good abstractions, but sometimes real-world use-cases don't fit 
>abstractions in some frameworks.
>>
>> Without a framework - what many here are doing IMO - you would start to develop your
>> own solutions to the different patterns, creating your own framework. Not difficult
>> either.
>I've developed many frameworks myself. That is (for better or worse) 
>something our CTO wants us to get out of doing.
>>
>>> Also, a few concerns I have are related to performance.  One of the things our
>>> current architecture does is make multiple parallel HTTP requests to XML based APIs
>>> that provide the data.  I know PHP doesn't exactly support concurrency like this, but
>>> I'm wondering if there is some other way to manage this kind of process. It is easier
>>> in Java to create many worker threads that each make a HTTP request, but I can
>>> imagine in PHP doing something with a bunch of async IO and select calls. Is that
>>> feasible? Is there something already created for this?
>>>
>>> What other tips do people have for performance and scalability?  Many of our
>>> applications serve more than 3 million requests per day, and we have many
>>> applications. I'd estimate our current platform as a whole serves 300-500 sustained
>>> requests per second.
>>
>> Big question mark here. Some top sites are running PHP, by I would see the
>> environment you are used to as an upgrade path for PHP programmers with need for big
>> iron.
>Yup, that is the sentiment of many of the front-line developers here.
>>
>> Very questionable decision to downgrade this way. Do they think PHP programmers are
>> cheaper? If they are, there is a risk that they are less skilled.
>
>Preaching to the choir. The thing is, we are a large company with many 
>branded sites.  I just happen to be in the department that needs the big 
>guns, but the majority of the other sites don't require them.  The 
>difficulty is in proving that's the case enough to justify our 
>department alone being different.   Who knows, we've got enough talent 
>here that maybe we'll turn the tide and make PHP more performance 
>oriented ;-)
>
>
>Well, thanks for the feedback.
>
>Daniel.

Daniel,

Long time developer here starting with web banking back in the
mid-90's.  IMHO I believe you will find php running under apache
(hopefully) to be considerably more responsive than anything with
java.

While I admit I haven't developed in java, all the projects my
coworkers have been involved with that were in java and in my own user
experience, the performance "hit" with java was tremendous.

As far as running production sites written in php...  I've done them
from 16 core AMD 64 bit with 24GB ram to as little as 1 core with 2GB
ram.  And surprisingly they ALL hold their own.

I've never run into any issues running clean code including very
dynamic sites.  And that includes those with 15-20 million
transactions per day.

Just remember to create good solid code and you won't be disappointed.

Good luck.

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#5845

On 5/7/12 2:25 PM, r.mariotti@fdcx.net wrote:
> On Mon, 07 May 2012 13:03:25 -0700, Daniel Pitts
> <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net>  wrote:
>
>> On 5/7/12 12:18 PM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>> Am 07.05.2012 20:37, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>> I've been told we are changing our platform from one based in Java to one based in
>>>> PHP.  I consider myself expert in Java and OOP, and I'm a little concerned about the
>>>> transition to PHP.  Personally, I'm in a position where I can remove myself from the
>>>> code-base (I'm starting to be in more of a management position).  However, I have
>>>> always liked to know the details of what is being worked on.
>>>>
>>>> What are the best resources for an expert programmer (with many different languages,
>>>> idioms, and philosophies under his belt), to learn "clean" PHP.  Is developing in
>>>> "pure" PHP significantly different than developing in symfony.
>>>
>>> "best resources for an expert programmer" - is the php.net documentation. You will
>>> fully understand everything there. PHP is an imperative scripting language taking
>>> features from all the neighbors. You might find the OO aspects simple.
>>>
>>> Symfony gives you a persistence framework, a CRUD generator, and and a clear
>>> convention based configuration.
>> So, its a bit like Rails? From the docs I've seen, it seems to provide
>> some good abstractions, but sometimes real-world use-cases don't fit
>> abstractions in some frameworks.
>>>
>>> Without a framework - what many here are doing IMO - you would start to develop your
>>> own solutions to the different patterns, creating your own framework. Not difficult
>>> either.
>> I've developed many frameworks myself. That is (for better or worse)
>> something our CTO wants us to get out of doing.
>>>
>>>> Also, a few concerns I have are related to performance.  One of the things our
>>>> current architecture does is make multiple parallel HTTP requests to XML based APIs
>>>> that provide the data.  I know PHP doesn't exactly support concurrency like this, but
>>>> I'm wondering if there is some other way to manage this kind of process. It is easier
>>>> in Java to create many worker threads that each make a HTTP request, but I can
>>>> imagine in PHP doing something with a bunch of async IO and select calls. Is that
>>>> feasible? Is there something already created for this?
>>>>
>>>> What other tips do people have for performance and scalability?  Many of our
>>>> applications serve more than 3 million requests per day, and we have many
>>>> applications. I'd estimate our current platform as a whole serves 300-500 sustained
>>>> requests per second.
>>>
>>> Big question mark here. Some top sites are running PHP, by I would see the
>>> environment you are used to as an upgrade path for PHP programmers with need for big
>>> iron.
>> Yup, that is the sentiment of many of the front-line developers here.
>>>
>>> Very questionable decision to downgrade this way. Do they think PHP programmers are
>>> cheaper? If they are, there is a risk that they are less skilled.
>>
>> Preaching to the choir. The thing is, we are a large company with many
>> branded sites.  I just happen to be in the department that needs the big
>> guns, but the majority of the other sites don't require them.  The
>> difficulty is in proving that's the case enough to justify our
>> department alone being different.   Who knows, we've got enough talent
>> here that maybe we'll turn the tide and make PHP more performance
>> oriented ;-)
>>
>>
>> Well, thanks for the feedback.
>>
>> Daniel.
>
> Daniel,
>
> Long time developer here starting with web banking back in the
> mid-90's.  IMHO I believe you will find php running under apache
> (hopefully) to be considerably more responsive than anything with
> java.
>
> While I admit I haven't developed in java, all the projects my
> coworkers have been involved with that were in java and in my own user
> experience, the performance "hit" with java was tremendous.
Hmm, that hasn't been our experience. Perhaps the Java you experienced 
wasn't designed the best way to support high levels of continuous 
traffic.  Apples-to-apples comparisons are sometimes difficult to manage 
when you're working with different langauges/frameworks.
>
> As far as running production sites written in php...  I've done them
> from 16 core AMD 64 bit with 24GB ram to as little as 1 core with 2GB
> ram.  And surprisingly they ALL hold their own.
We're estimating that we're going to need a load-balanced tier of dozens 
of 16 core servers. Our current processes tend to be IO bound, but with 
CPU not to far behind.  PHP seems to be more CPU intensive for the same 
amount of work.
>
> I've never run into any issues running clean code including very
> dynamic sites.  And that includes those with 15-20 million
> transactions per day.
>
> Just remember to create good solid code and you won't be disappointed.
My code is usually good solid code, but we're a large company with many 
developers of varying levels of skill.  I'm not worried about being 
disappointed, I'm worried about management being disappointed

Thanks,
Daniel.

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#5848

Daniel Pitts wrote:
> On 5/7/12 2:25 PM, r.mariotti@fdcx.net wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 May 2012 13:03:25 -0700, Daniel Pitts
>> <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net>  wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/7/12 12:18 PM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>>> Am 07.05.2012 20:37, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>> I've been told we are changing our platform from one based in Java 
>>>>> to one based in
>>>>> PHP.  I consider myself expert in Java and OOP, and I'm a little 
>>>>> concerned about the
>>>>> transition to PHP.  Personally, I'm in a position where I can 
>>>>> remove myself from the
>>>>> code-base (I'm starting to be in more of a management position).  
>>>>> However, I have
>>>>> always liked to know the details of what is being worked on.
>>>>>
>>>>> What are the best resources for an expert programmer (with many 
>>>>> different languages,
>>>>> idioms, and philosophies under his belt), to learn "clean" PHP.  Is 
>>>>> developing in
>>>>> "pure" PHP significantly different than developing in symfony.
>>>>
>>>> "best resources for an expert programmer" - is the php.net 
>>>> documentation. You will
>>>> fully understand everything there. PHP is an imperative scripting 
>>>> language taking
>>>> features from all the neighbors. You might find the OO aspects simple.
>>>>
>>>> Symfony gives you a persistence framework, a CRUD generator, and and 
>>>> a clear
>>>> convention based configuration.
>>> So, its a bit like Rails? From the docs I've seen, it seems to provide
>>> some good abstractions, but sometimes real-world use-cases don't fit
>>> abstractions in some frameworks.
>>>>
>>>> Without a framework - what many here are doing IMO - you would start 
>>>> to develop your
>>>> own solutions to the different patterns, creating your own 
>>>> framework. Not difficult
>>>> either.
>>> I've developed many frameworks myself. That is (for better or worse)
>>> something our CTO wants us to get out of doing.
>>>>
>>>>> Also, a few concerns I have are related to performance.  One of the 
>>>>> things our
>>>>> current architecture does is make multiple parallel HTTP requests 
>>>>> to XML based APIs
>>>>> that provide the data.  I know PHP doesn't exactly support 
>>>>> concurrency like this, but
>>>>> I'm wondering if there is some other way to manage this kind of 
>>>>> process. It is easier
>>>>> in Java to create many worker threads that each make a HTTP 
>>>>> request, but I can
>>>>> imagine in PHP doing something with a bunch of async IO and select 
>>>>> calls. Is that
>>>>> feasible? Is there something already created for this?
>>>>>
>>>>> What other tips do people have for performance and scalability?  
>>>>> Many of our
>>>>> applications serve more than 3 million requests per day, and we 
>>>>> have many
>>>>> applications. I'd estimate our current platform as a whole serves 
>>>>> 300-500 sustained
>>>>> requests per second.
>>>>
>>>> Big question mark here. Some top sites are running PHP, by I would 
>>>> see the
>>>> environment you are used to as an upgrade path for PHP programmers 
>>>> with need for big
>>>> iron.
>>> Yup, that is the sentiment of many of the front-line developers here.
>>>>
>>>> Very questionable decision to downgrade this way. Do they think PHP 
>>>> programmers are
>>>> cheaper? If they are, there is a risk that they are less skilled.
>>>
>>> Preaching to the choir. The thing is, we are a large company with many
>>> branded sites.  I just happen to be in the department that needs the big
>>> guns, but the majority of the other sites don't require them.  The
>>> difficulty is in proving that's the case enough to justify our
>>> department alone being different.   Who knows, we've got enough talent
>>> here that maybe we'll turn the tide and make PHP more performance
>>> oriented ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, thanks for the feedback.
>>>
>>> Daniel.
>>
>> Daniel,
>>
>> Long time developer here starting with web banking back in the
>> mid-90's.  IMHO I believe you will find php running under apache
>> (hopefully) to be considerably more responsive than anything with
>> java.
>>
>> While I admit I haven't developed in java, all the projects my
>> coworkers have been involved with that were in java and in my own user
>> experience, the performance "hit" with java was tremendous.
> Hmm, that hasn't been our experience. Perhaps the Java you experienced 
> wasn't designed the best way to support high levels of continuous 
> traffic.  Apples-to-apples comparisons are sometimes difficult to manage 
> when you're working with different langauges/frameworks.
>>
>> As far as running production sites written in php...  I've done them
>> from 16 core AMD 64 bit with 24GB ram to as little as 1 core with 2GB
>> ram.  And surprisingly they ALL hold their own.
> We're estimating that we're going to need a load-balanced tier of dozens 
> of 16 core servers. Our current processes tend to be IO bound, but with 
> CPU not to far behind.  PHP seems to be more CPU intensive for the same 
> amount of work.
>>
>> I've never run into any issues running clean code including very
>> dynamic sites.  And that includes those with 15-20 million
>> transactions per day.
>>
>> Just remember to create good solid code and you won't be disappointed.
> My code is usually good solid code, but we're a large company with many 
> developers of varying levels of skill.  I'm not worried about being 
> disappointed, I'm worried about management being disappointed
> 
consider building your own libraries in C and binding into  PHP.

If that's not going against the grain.

I heard from one person in such a sitation that the web designers liked 
to have simple atomic PHP statements that did a lot..these were handled 
by proper programmers either as PHP libraries or as PHP/C libraries.

> Thanks,
> Daniel.


-- 
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

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#5850

On 5/7/2012 5:34 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> On 5/7/12 2:25 PM, r.mariotti@fdcx.net wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 May 2012 13:03:25 -0700, Daniel Pitts
>> <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/7/12 12:18 PM, M. Strobel wrote:
>>>> Am 07.05.2012 20:37, schrieb Daniel Pitts:
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>> I've been told we are changing our platform from one based in Java
>>>>> to one based in
>>>>> PHP. I consider myself expert in Java and OOP, and I'm a little
>>>>> concerned about the
>>>>> transition to PHP. Personally, I'm in a position where I can remove
>>>>> myself from the
>>>>> code-base (I'm starting to be in more of a management position).
>>>>> However, I have
>>>>> always liked to know the details of what is being worked on.
>>>>>
>>>>> What are the best resources for an expert programmer (with many
>>>>> different languages,
>>>>> idioms, and philosophies under his belt), to learn "clean" PHP. Is
>>>>> developing in
>>>>> "pure" PHP significantly different than developing in symfony.
>>>>
>>>> "best resources for an expert programmer" - is the php.net
>>>> documentation. You will
>>>> fully understand everything there. PHP is an imperative scripting
>>>> language taking
>>>> features from all the neighbors. You might find the OO aspects simple.
>>>>
>>>> Symfony gives you a persistence framework, a CRUD generator, and and
>>>> a clear
>>>> convention based configuration.
>>> So, its a bit like Rails? From the docs I've seen, it seems to provide
>>> some good abstractions, but sometimes real-world use-cases don't fit
>>> abstractions in some frameworks.
>>>>
>>>> Without a framework - what many here are doing IMO - you would start
>>>> to develop your
>>>> own solutions to the different patterns, creating your own
>>>> framework. Not difficult
>>>> either.
>>> I've developed many frameworks myself. That is (for better or worse)
>>> something our CTO wants us to get out of doing.
>>>>
>>>>> Also, a few concerns I have are related to performance. One of the
>>>>> things our
>>>>> current architecture does is make multiple parallel HTTP requests
>>>>> to XML based APIs
>>>>> that provide the data. I know PHP doesn't exactly support
>>>>> concurrency like this, but
>>>>> I'm wondering if there is some other way to manage this kind of
>>>>> process. It is easier
>>>>> in Java to create many worker threads that each make a HTTP
>>>>> request, but I can
>>>>> imagine in PHP doing something with a bunch of async IO and select
>>>>> calls. Is that
>>>>> feasible? Is there something already created for this?
>>>>>
>>>>> What other tips do people have for performance and scalability?
>>>>> Many of our
>>>>> applications serve more than 3 million requests per day, and we
>>>>> have many
>>>>> applications. I'd estimate our current platform as a whole serves
>>>>> 300-500 sustained
>>>>> requests per second.
>>>>
>>>> Big question mark here. Some top sites are running PHP, by I would
>>>> see the
>>>> environment you are used to as an upgrade path for PHP programmers
>>>> with need for big
>>>> iron.
>>> Yup, that is the sentiment of many of the front-line developers here.
>>>>
>>>> Very questionable decision to downgrade this way. Do they think PHP
>>>> programmers are
>>>> cheaper? If they are, there is a risk that they are less skilled.
>>>
>>> Preaching to the choir. The thing is, we are a large company with many
>>> branded sites. I just happen to be in the department that needs the big
>>> guns, but the majority of the other sites don't require them. The
>>> difficulty is in proving that's the case enough to justify our
>>> department alone being different. Who knows, we've got enough talent
>>> here that maybe we'll turn the tide and make PHP more performance
>>> oriented ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, thanks for the feedback.
>>>
>>> Daniel.
>>
>> Daniel,
>>
>> Long time developer here starting with web banking back in the
>> mid-90's. IMHO I believe you will find php running under apache
>> (hopefully) to be considerably more responsive than anything with
>> java.
>>
>> While I admit I haven't developed in java, all the projects my
>> coworkers have been involved with that were in java and in my own user
>> experience, the performance "hit" with java was tremendous.
> Hmm, that hasn't been our experience. Perhaps the Java you experienced
> wasn't designed the best way to support high levels of continuous
> traffic. Apples-to-apples comparisons are sometimes difficult to manage
> when you're working with different langauges/frameworks.

I've had the same experience as r.mariotti.  I've done a lot of both 
Java and PHP.  While I find Java to be a much superior language 
programming-wise, I've also found PHP to be faster, especially if you 
use caches.

And I have been comparing apples to apples.

>>
>> As far as running production sites written in php... I've done them
>> from 16 core AMD 64 bit with 24GB ram to as little as 1 core with 2GB
>> ram. And surprisingly they ALL hold their own.
> We're estimating that we're going to need a load-balanced tier of dozens
> of 16 core servers. Our current processes tend to be IO bound, but with
> CPU not to far behind. PHP seems to be more CPU intensive for the same
> amount of work.

I've found exactly the opposite, when they're doing the same thing.

>>
>> I've never run into any issues running clean code including very
>> dynamic sites. And that includes those with 15-20 million
>> transactions per day.
>>
>> Just remember to create good solid code and you won't be disappointed.
> My code is usually good solid code, but we're a large company with many
> developers of varying levels of skill. I'm not worried about being
> disappointed, I'm worried about management being disappointed
>
> Thanks,
> Daniel.

You will have a relatively long learning curve to get your Java 
programmers up to the same quality in PHP.  But you also need to be 
careful - there are a lot of crap PHP programmers (and a lot of crap 
programming examples/frameworks/whatever) on the internet.

Quite frankly, I'm not sure why your company would want to change 
everything from something which is working and supported by experienced 
programmers to something completely different with programmers who in 
general don't know the language.  In over 20 years of consulting I've 
never seen a company save money that way.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
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