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ORMs comparisons/complaints.

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  ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-12-22 11:05 -0800
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 14:46 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 15:17 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 15:38 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 15:47 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 16:04 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 16:09 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-22 16:20 -0500
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-22 16:34 -0500
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 12:54 +1100
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-12-22 20:48 -0800
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 07:58 -0500
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 17:38 +1100
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 07:57 -0500
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 10:11 +1100
                          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-23 19:59 -0500
                            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 12:14 +1100
                            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:02 -0500
                              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 15:40 +1100
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-12-24 12:28 +0100
                      c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-24 08:49 -0500
                        Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 09:35 +1100
                          Re: c Graham Hobbs <ghobbs@cdpwise.net> - 2013-12-24 19:35 -0500
                            Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-25 00:08 -0500
                              Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 20:41 +1100
                                [EOD] Re: c Wanja Gayk <brixomatic@yahoo.com> - 2013-12-25 11:15 +0100
                                  Re: [EOD] Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 23:29 +1100
                                    Re: [EOD] Re: c The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-25 12:48 +0000
                            Re: c "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 17:46 +1100
                              Re: c Graham Hobbs <ghobbs@cdpwise.net> - 2013-12-25 09:24 -0500
                        Re: c Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 22:51 -0500
                          Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 08:03 -0500
                            Re: c Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 12:40 -0500
                              Re: c Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 12:46 -0500
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 22:46 -0500
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 14:54 +1100
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:06 -0500
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-30 15:21 +1100
                    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 08:04 -0500
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-30 12:32 -0500
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 12:47 -0500
                          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-12-31 08:23 +1100
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Doug Miller <doug_at_milmac_dot_com@example.com> - 2013-12-30 19:45 +0000
                      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Ricardo Palomaes <rpmdisguise-java@nowhere.com> - 2013-12-30 19:20 +0100
                        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-30 18:34 +0000
                          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-30 14:27 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Marcel Müller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> - 2013-12-22 22:26 +0100
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:17 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2013-12-22 16:11 -0800
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:08 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 17:36 -0400
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-30 22:13 +0000
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-30 22:09 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-31 11:30 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-12-31 08:11 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-01 14:20 +0000
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:05 -0500
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2014-01-02 14:48 +1100
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:57 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 04:04 -0400
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:54 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 04:09 -0400
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:54 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-03 09:18 -0400
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 16:45 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-23 13:25 +0100
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:27 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-30 14:38 +0100
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-12-30 09:36 -0800
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2013-12-31 01:26 +0100
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:23 -0500
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 22:19 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-02 12:36 +0100
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2014-01-02 09:36 -0800
                Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Silvio <silvio@internet.com> - 2014-01-02 21:06 +0100
                  Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2014-01-03 14:48 +0000
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:59 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 21:07 -0500
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 21:10 -0500
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-31 09:44 -0400
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. leif.roar@invalid.com (Leif Roar Moldskred) - 2013-12-23 07:22 -0600
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-12-29 23:20 -0500
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-25 13:56 -0400
    Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2013-12-31 10:52 -0600
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Evan Platt <evan@theobvious.espphotography.com.invalid> - 2013-12-31 11:50 -0800
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-12-31 17:54 -0400
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2013-12-31 19:33 -0600
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2014-01-02 17:37 -0400
      Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-01 21:46 -0500
        Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-02 19:34 +1100
          Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-02 20:43 -0500
            Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2014-01-03 20:19 +1100
              Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2014-01-03 15:43 -0500

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#12349 — ORMs comparisons/complaints.

Hey everyone,

This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.

I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs, 
both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch systems to 
there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve 
problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core 
libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core 
business code.

I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've 
been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.

I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
    * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
    * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
    * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)

And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate, 
including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.


So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you 
like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a flame war, 
so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.

I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to 
complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.

Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes 
with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...

Thanks for your consideration,
Daniel.

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#12350

On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>
> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
> both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch systems to
> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
> libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
> business code.
>
> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>
> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>     * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>     * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
>     * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)
>
> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>
>
> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
> like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a flame war,
> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.
>
> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>
> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes
> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...

My experience is that ORM is good for cases where all of the
following apply:
- changes of single rows or simple queries
- database is designed for ORM or are relative simple

ORM is obviously not intended for changing large number of rows
(bulk operations).

For very complex queries one end up working around limitations
in the QL to achieve what is easy to do in SQL.

Old legacy databases with a bad design is very difficult to
map to ORM and the result often perform very poorly.

ORM's used:
    Java - entity EJB's, Hibernate, JPA
    .NET - NHibernate, LINQ to SQL, EF

Non ORM used:
    Java - JDBC
    .NET - ADO.NET
    PHP - mysql, mysqli and PDO extensions

Preference:
    Java - JPA (due to standard, features and ease of use)
    .NET : NHibernate (due to features and ease of use)

Arne

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#12351

On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>
> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
> both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch systems to
> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
> libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
> business code.
>
> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>
> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>     * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>     * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
>     * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)
>
> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>
>
> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
> like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a flame war,
> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.
>
> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>
> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes
> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>
> Thanks for your consideration,
> Daniel.

Is there a PHP question in there?  I don't see one...

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#12352

On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>
>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>> both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch systems to
>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>> libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>> business code.
>>
>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>>
>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>     * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>     * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
>>     * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>
>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>
>>
>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
>> like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a flame war,
>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.
>>
>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>
>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes
>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>
> Is there a PHP question in there?  I don't see one...

Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
ORM's could be included in discussion.

Arne

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#12353

On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>> Hey everyone,
>>>
>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>
>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>>> both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch systems to
>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>> libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>> business code.
>>>
>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>>>
>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>     * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>     * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
>>>     * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>
>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>
>>>
>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did you
>>> like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a flame war,
>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used them.
>>>
>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>
>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of changes
>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>
>> Is there a PHP question in there?  I don't see one...
>
> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>
> Arne
>
>

I still don't see a PHP question here.  I see some product questions - 
which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.

Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a 
PHP language newsgroup.

But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and 
think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#12354

On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>>
>>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>>
>>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>>>> both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch systems to
>>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>> libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>> business code.
>>>>
>>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if they've
>>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>>>>
>>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>>     * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>>     * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
>>>>     * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>>
>>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
>>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did
>>>> you
>>>> like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a flame war,
>>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
>>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>>
>>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>> changes
>>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>
>>> Is there a PHP question in there?  I don't see one...
>>
>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>
> I still don't see a PHP question here.  I see some product questions -
> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>
> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
> PHP language newsgroup.
>
> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.

ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.

And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
for a specific library is not a good choice.

Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
different ways of database access from PHP is needed.

comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.

Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
would be even better if such exists.

Arne

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#12355

On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>>>>> both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch systems to
>>>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>>> libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>>> business code.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>>> they've
>>>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>>>     * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>>>     * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
>>>>>     * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
>>>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did
>>>>> you
>>>>> like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a flame
>>>>> war,
>>>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
>>>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>>> changes
>>>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>>
>>>> Is there a PHP question in there?  I don't see one...
>>>
>>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>
>> I still don't see a PHP question here.  I see some product questions -
>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>
>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
>> PHP language newsgroup.
>>
>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>
> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>
> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>
> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>
> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>
> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
> would be even better if such exists.
>
> Arne
>

Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate.  There you have 
people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.

Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an ORM, 
and if they have, they have very limited experience.

But as I said - some people think any question can be asked in any 
newsgroup, no matter how thin the connection.  But others prefer to 
direct people to appropriate newsgroups, where they will get GOOD 
answers from knowledgeable people.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#12356

On 12/22/2013 4:09 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>>>>>> both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch systems to
>>>>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>>>> libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>>>> business code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>>>> they've
>>>>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>>>>     * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>>>>     * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around
>>>>>> 2006)
>>>>>>     * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after
>>>>>> Hibernate,
>>>>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a flame
>>>>>> war,
>>>>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
>>>>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>>>> changes
>>>>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a PHP question in there?  I don't see one...
>>>>
>>>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>>
>>> I still don't see a PHP question here.  I see some product questions -
>>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>>
>>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
>>> PHP language newsgroup.
>>>
>>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
>>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>>
>> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>>
>> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
>> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>>
>> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
>> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>>
>> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>>
>> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or
>> comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
>> would be even better if such exists.
>
> Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate.  There you have
> people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.

ORM's are language specific. So it would need to be a PHP ORM group
to cover PHP.

Does one exist?

> Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an ORM,
> and if they have, they have very limited experience.

That depends on the language.

In languages like Java and C# it would be >90% that have used an ORM.

It is probably much less in PHP as ORM's are not as widely used
in the PHP world.

But I suspect that Daniel even may be interested in knowing more
about why it is so.

Arne

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#12358

On 12/22/2013 4:20 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 4:09 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various
>>>>>>> ORMs,
>>>>>>> both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch systems to
>>>>>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>>>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>>>>> libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>>>>> business code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>>>>> they've
>>>>>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they
>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>>>>>     * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>>>>>     * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around
>>>>>>> 2006)
>>>>>>>     * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after
>>>>>>> Hibernate,
>>>>>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a flame
>>>>>>> war,
>>>>>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off
>>>>>>> applications to
>>>>>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a PHP question in there?  I don't see one...
>>>>>
>>>>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>>>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>>>
>>>> I still don't see a PHP question here.  I see some product questions -
>>>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>>>
>>>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
>>>> PHP language newsgroup.
>>>>
>>>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
>>>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>>>
>>> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>>>
>>> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
>>> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>>>
>>> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
>>> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>>>
>>> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>>>
>>> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or
>>> comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
>>> would be even better if such exists.
>>
>> Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate.  There you have
>> people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.
>
> ORM's are language specific. So it would need to be a PHP ORM group
> to cover PHP.
>
> Does one exist?
>
>> Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an ORM,
>> and if they have, they have very limited experience.
>
> That depends on the language.
>
> In languages like Java and C# it would be >90% that have used an ORM.
>
> It is probably much less in PHP as ORM's are not as widely used
> in the PHP world.
>
> But I suspect that Daniel even may be interested in knowing more
> about why it is so.
>
> Arne
>

If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p.  But this 
does not belong in c.l.p.

FUP set to c.l.j.p only.


-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#12360

"Jerry Stuckle"  wrote in message news:l97lta$j20$1@dont-email.me...

> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p.  But this does 
> not belong in c.l.p.
>
> FUP set to c.l.j.p only.

Jerry, could you please post a copy of the certificate you received when you 
were appointed the owner of c.l.p?  Either that or the "Resident Troll 
Award" would be suitable.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#12361

In article <du2dnSyfhaGKBSrPnZ2dnUVZ_qqdnZ2d@westnet.com.au>,
 "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Jerry Stuckle"  wrote in message news:l97lta$j20$1@dont-email.me...
> 
> > If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p.  But this does 
> > not belong in c.l.p.
> >
> > FUP set to c.l.j.p only.
> 
> Jerry, could you please post a copy of the certificate you received when you 
> were appointed the owner of c.l.p?  Either that or the "Resident Troll 
> Award" would be suitable.
> 
> --
> And loving it,
> 
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

It's amusing what I miss after I plonked him. Not much, still, from what 
I can tell.

-- 
DeeDee, don't press that button!  DeeDee!  NO!  Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]

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#12365

On 12/22/2013 11:48 PM, Michael Vilain wrote:
> In article <du2dnSyfhaGKBSrPnZ2dnUVZ_qqdnZ2d@westnet.com.au>,
>   "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Jerry Stuckle"  wrote in message news:l97lta$j20$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>>> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p.  But this does
>>> not belong in c.l.p.
>>>
>>> FUP set to c.l.j.p only.
>>
>> Jerry, could you please post a copy of the certificate you received when you
>> were appointed the owner of c.l.p?  Either that or the "Resident Troll
>> Award" would be suitable.
>>
>> --
>> And loving it,
>>
>> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
>> _________________________________________________
>> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
>> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
>
> It's amusing what I miss after I plonked him. Not much, still, from what
> I can tell.
>

How great it's been since you haven't been around!  So much nicer!


-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#12362

"Jerry Stuckle"  wrote in message news:l98bph$v8o$1@dont-email.me...

Wow Jerry, your response was so weak you felt the need to post it 3 times!

> Qu0ll,
>
> Could you please show where you EVER have posted in comp.lang.php?
>
> We have a good group here.  Don't ruin it by making off-topic posts.  If 
> you what to see what's appropriate, please refer to the charger for the 
> newsgroup.
>
> This is comp.LANG.php, not comp.ORM.php.

OK, I get it, people who have never posted in a particular group are not 
allowed to comment.  Got it.  My mistake, I see you really *do* own the 
group!

> Fupped to c.l.j.p. for the TROLL's benefit (correct one this time)

Not sure how you benefitted from that but thanks for the admission.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#12364

On 12/23/2013 1:38 AM, the well-known TROLL Qu0ll wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle"  wrote in message news:l98bph$v8o$1@dont-email.me...
>
> Wow Jerry, your response was so weak you felt the need to post it 3 times!
>
>> Qu0ll,
>>
>> Could you please show where you EVER have posted in comp.lang.php?
>>
>> We have a good group here.  Don't ruin it by making off-topic posts.
>> If you what to see what's appropriate, please refer to the charger for
>> the newsgroup.
>>
>> This is comp.LANG.php, not comp.ORM.php.
>
> OK, I get it, people who have never posted in a particular group are not
> allowed to comment.  Got it.  My mistake, I see you really *do* own the
> group!
>

People with PHP questions are welcome.  But we have enough TROLLS 
without you.  You do not know the group, the history or the members. 
But you know better than the regular readers what is best for this 
newsgroup.

How like the TROLL you are so well-known as!  No wonder you refuse to 
use your real name and use a gmail address.

>> Fupped to c.l.j.p. for the TROLL's benefit (correct one this time)
>
> Not sure how you benefitted from that but thanks for the admission.
>
> --
> And loving it,
>
> -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
> _________________________________________________
> Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
> [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]

FUP reset for the TROLL's benefit.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#12367

"Jerry Stuckle"  wrote in message news:l99c07$fvi$1@dont-email.me...

> People with PHP questions are welcome.  But we have enough TROLLS without 
> you.  You do not know the group, the history or the members. But you know 
> better than the regular readers what is best for this newsgroup.

There's one in every newsgroup.  The one who thinks they own it.  The one 
who thinks their opinion is more important than any other.  The one who 
thinks they have the right to say who posts and who doesn't post.  The one 
who treats newbies like they have committed a federal offence.  The one who 
spends more time picking up on grammar or capitalisation than actually 
helping others. And the one whose opinion of themselves is of the rock star 
of all rock stars.

Thank you Jerry for putting up your hand and letting newcomers know who this 
person is for c.l.p so quickly!

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#12368

On 12/23/2013 6:11 PM, the well-known TROLL Qu0ll wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle"  wrote in message news:l99c07$fvi$1@dont-email.me...
>
>> People with PHP questions are welcome.  But we have enough TROLLS
>> without you.  You do not know the group, the history or the members.
>> But you know better than the regular readers what is best for this
>> newsgroup.
>
> There's one in every newsgroup.  The one who thinks they own it.  The
> one who thinks their opinion is more important than any other.  The one
> who thinks they have the right to say who posts and who doesn't post.
> The one who treats newbies like they have committed a federal offence.
> The one who spends more time picking up on grammar or capitalisation
> than actually helping others. And the one whose opinion of themselves is
> of the rock star of all rock stars.
>
> Thank you Jerry for putting up your hand and letting newcomers know who
> this person is for c.l.p so quickly!
>

Yes, with your presence has added one more TROLL to this newsgroup.  We 
don't need you.  Go back and ruin your java newsgroup.

And FYI, I am NOT the only one who feels this way.  The majority of the 
non-trolls in this newsgroup feel the same way.  I'm just the first one 
to speak up in this thread.

I'll let you have the last word.  TROLLS always need that to feed their 
fragile ego.  That's why they're afraid to use their real names or a 
non-gmail et.al. address.  They're terrified someone will find out who 
they really are!

FUP'd to comp.lang.java.programmer, although I know the TROLL will 
change it again.  Why do you guys even put up with him?


-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

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#12369

"Jerry Stuckle"  wrote in message news:l9am9u$djb$1@dont-email.me...

> I'll let you have the last word.

Let's see if you can keep your word.

> FUP'd to comp.lang.java.programmer

This is typical behaviour of the kind of person I was describing: criticise 
and then run, kind of like a guy standing outside a brawl who comes in and 
throws one punch and then runs away to avoid repercussions.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#12430

On 12/23/2013 7:59 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 12/23/2013 6:11 PM, the well-known TROLL Qu0ll wrote:
>> "Jerry Stuckle"  wrote in message news:l99c07$fvi$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>>> People with PHP questions are welcome.  But we have enough TROLLS
>>> without you.  You do not know the group, the history or the members.
>>> But you know better than the regular readers what is best for this
>>> newsgroup.
>>
>> There's one in every newsgroup.  The one who thinks they own it.  The
>> one who thinks their opinion is more important than any other.  The one
>> who thinks they have the right to say who posts and who doesn't post.
>> The one who treats newbies like they have committed a federal offence.
>> The one who spends more time picking up on grammar or capitalisation
>> than actually helping others. And the one whose opinion of themselves is
>> of the rock star of all rock stars.
>>
>> Thank you Jerry for putting up your hand and letting newcomers know who
>> this person is for c.l.p so quickly!
>
> Yes, with your presence has added one more TROLL to this newsgroup.  We
> don't need you.  Go back and ruin your java newsgroup.

 > FUP'd to comp.lang.java.programmer, although I know the TROLL will
 > change it again.  Why do you guys even put up with him?

Because he does not troll.

He is a bit optimistic about the future for JavaFX, but that is
not trolling.

Feel free to google yourself.

Arne

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#12437

"Arne Vajhøj"  wrote in message 
news:52c0f061$0$294$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...

> He is a bit optimistic about the future for JavaFX, but that is
> not trolling.

A bit optimistic?  Nah, JavaFX is the future of cross-platform app 
development and will also bring about world peace ;-)

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#12370

In article <l98av6$stk$1@dont-email.me>, Jerry Stuckle 
(jstucklex@attglobal.net) says...

> We have a good group here.  Don't ruin it by making off-topic posts.

So if you'll stop ruining other newsgroups with off-topic posts and full 
quotes, we'd be grateful. 

This was about ORM-mapping in general and intentionally mentioned "non-
Java ORM" - with the PHP newsgroup included, I hope you're able to count 
add 1 and 1 together and comprehend that this means PHP people were 
asked their opinion. Your "The author didnt' ask a PHP-Question" thread-
takeover is off topic and I'd be grateful if you stopped this bullshit 
now and forever, thanks.

F'up set to the newsgroup where you belong, scorefile adjusted, thank 
you.



-- 
..Alesi's problem was that the back of the car was jumping up and down 
dangerously - and I can assure you from having been teammate to 
Jean Alesi and knowing what kind of cars that he can pull up with, 
when Jean Alesi says that a car is dangerous - it is. [Jonathan Palmer]

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

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