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Groups > comp.lang.php > #15925 > unrolled thread
| Started by | James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-12-19 10:03 +0000 |
| Last post | 2016-01-12 05:34 +0100 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 159 — 11 participants |
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PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-19 10:03 +0000
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-19 08:20 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 10:16 +0000
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-20 09:31 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 17:11 +0000
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-20 16:42 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-25 15:56 +0000
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-25 11:23 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-26 10:09 +0000
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-26 09:33 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2015-12-20 22:54 +0000
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-20 18:40 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-21 10:38 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-21 08:41 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-21 15:30 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-21 11:04 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-21 23:24 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-21 19:16 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-22 00:33 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-21 19:19 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-22 10:27 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-22 11:18 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-22 06:34 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-22 16:00 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-22 10:56 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-22 15:56 +0100
OT: pre-PHP day (was: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program) Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-22 16:57 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-22 11:03 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-22 18:02 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-22 14:47 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-22 11:04 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-22 18:22 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-22 12:33 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-22 18:46 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program "Christoph M. Becker" <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2015-12-21 17:25 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-21 23:17 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-21 19:23 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-28 15:26 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-28 10:02 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-28 18:14 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-28 12:29 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-28 18:54 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-28 14:15 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-28 21:18 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-28 15:49 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-12-28 20:31 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-28 20:48 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-30 11:26 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-30 12:33 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-30 18:57 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-30 15:14 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-30 19:05 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-30 15:18 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-12-30 21:55 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Matthew Carter <m@ahungry.com> - 2015-12-30 22:14 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-30 22:43 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-30 22:46 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-30 22:42 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-31 09:07 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-31 07:47 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-31 16:11 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-31 10:47 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-31 17:43 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-31 13:49 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-31 20:35 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-30 11:18 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-30 12:36 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-30 19:09 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2015-12-30 20:28 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-30 15:21 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-31 09:09 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-30 15:21 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-31 09:16 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-31 07:53 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-31 16:03 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-31 10:49 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-31 17:16 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-31 13:54 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-31 20:41 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-31 14:47 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-31 20:56 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-31 15:21 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-31 17:52 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-31 13:51 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-28 19:35 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-28 14:17 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-22 00:20 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-21 19:27 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-22 10:12 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-22 06:36 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-22 13:57 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-22 11:05 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2015-12-22 17:22 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-22 12:01 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2015-12-22 18:25 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-22 12:34 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2015-12-21 14:53 -0800
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-21 19:30 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Matthew Carter <m@ahungry.com> - 2015-12-21 21:40 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Matthew Carter <m@ahungry.com> - 2015-12-21 21:47 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-21 21:55 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Matthew Carter <m@ahungry.com> - 2015-12-21 21:57 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-21 22:01 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-21 21:54 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2015-12-22 11:54 -0800
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-22 15:42 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2016-01-02 11:08 -0800
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-02 15:12 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2016-01-04 10:41 -0800
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-04 14:39 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2015-12-22 11:49 -0800
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2015-12-22 15:44 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2016-01-02 11:09 -0800
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-02 15:14 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2016-01-04 10:42 -0800
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-04 14:41 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-04 22:54 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-04 19:40 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-05 04:19 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-04 22:29 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Matthew Carter <m@ahungry.com> - 2016-01-05 02:02 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-05 09:08 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-05 18:55 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-05 14:06 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2016-01-04 15:51 -0800
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-04 19:41 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-05 04:27 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-04 22:31 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-05 04:48 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-04 22:52 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-05 09:16 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-05 09:08 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-05 18:59 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-05 14:07 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-06 01:13 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-05 20:52 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-06 08:53 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-06 09:15 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2016-01-05 09:00 -0800
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-05 19:01 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-05 14:09 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-06 01:15 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-05 20:51 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-06 08:54 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-06 09:16 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-11 09:02 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-11 08:02 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-11 23:42 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-11 20:44 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-05 14:09 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2016-01-06 09:27 -0800
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-06 15:25 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2016-01-06 13:27 -0800
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-06 16:32 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-11 09:03 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-11 08:03 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-11 23:45 +0100
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-01-11 20:48 -0500
Re: PHP boilerplate to appear at the top of any program Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2016-01-12 05:34 +0100
Page 7 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 Next page →
| From | Matthew Carter <m@ahungry.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 02:02 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <87bn90cxw5.fsf@ahungry.com> |
| In reply to | #16078 |
Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> writes: > On 1/4/2016 10:19 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: >> Jerry Stuckle unfriendly as usual: >> >> >> Yep - so the number of page views will definitely be even *lower*, not >> higher. To get an impression how fast (or slow) a server is, this is >> still a good estimation - and YOU KNOW THIS! >> > > Not at all. You're doing page views from a single client. There are no > concurrent requests as occurs in a live system. And I have no idea what > your network is, either - which also affects speed. > > IOW, your test is worthless. > >> Do you have any experience with 'ab'? From the apache2-tools package? He tested with a concurrency of 100 users (that's what the -c100 option is). He also tested on a local machine, so the network effect is a non-factor (unless you think the loopback interface has any measurable latency). Jerry, can you please post a minimum example and your setup/machine specs for a script which can do a database connection and still process 1000/requests a second? Without page render caching (opcache or otherwise), I'm not sure such a feat (which you boast about multiple times) is possible. Also, we are discussing PHP - as javascript assets are not even necessarily from the same server that is running the PHP script (ever hear of a CDN?) they are not a factor, as they only impact client render speed - if you pulled in a site via a curl request, or a non-graphical browser such as lynx, you wouldn't need to request all those assets either.
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| From | Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 09:08 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n6gijn$nc2$1@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #16082 |
On 1/5/2016 2:02 AM, Matthew Carter wrote: > Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> writes: > >> On 1/4/2016 10:19 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: >>> Jerry Stuckle unfriendly as usual: >>> >>> >>> Yep - so the number of page views will definitely be even *lower*, not >>> higher. To get an impression how fast (or slow) a server is, this is >>> still a good estimation - and YOU KNOW THIS! >>> >> >> Not at all. You're doing page views from a single client. There are no >> concurrent requests as occurs in a live system. And I have no idea what >> your network is, either - which also affects speed. >> >> IOW, your test is worthless. >> >>> > > Do you have any experience with 'ab'? From the apache2-tools package? > Yes, I do. > He tested with a concurrency of 100 users (that's what the -c100 option > is). > Which is severely limited by many factors. It does not duplicate 100 independent users. > He also tested on a local machine, so the network effect is a non-factor > (unless you think the loopback interface has any measurable latency). > Which in reality is around 50-100Mbps real time. Data centers run multi-GBps. A huge difference. > Jerry, can you please post a minimum example and your setup/machine > specs for a script which can do a database connection and still process > 1000/requests a second? Without page render caching (opcache or > otherwise), I'm not sure such a feat (which you boast about multiple > times) is possible. > It takes careful setup of the server, Apache, caching and RPC, to start. And yes, that includes caching. It is quite possible, if you know what you're doing. But no, I'm not going to get into a long discussion on how to set it up here. As you pointed out, this is a PHP newsgroup, and it is off topic. Plus I'm not interested in publicizing how my clients' systems are set up. > Also, we are discussing PHP - as javascript assets are not even > necessarily from the same server that is running the PHP script (ever > hear of a CDN?) they are not a factor, as they only impact client render > speed - if you pulled in a site via a curl request, or a non-graphical > browser such as lynx, you wouldn't need to request all those assets either. > Yes, I've heard of CDN. But Arno isn't using it, as aren't others. And the various frameworks which have been discussed don't use it. So your comment is immaterial. And if you pull a site via curl or lynx, you're not doing page views. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle jstucklex@attglobal.net ==================
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| From | Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 18:55 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <568C03AB.10908@arnowelzel.de> |
| In reply to | #16084 |
Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 15:08: > On 1/5/2016 2:02 AM, Matthew Carter wrote: [...] >> Also, we are discussing PHP - as javascript assets are not even >> necessarily from the same server that is running the PHP script (ever >> hear of a CDN?) they are not a factor, as they only impact client render >> speed - if you pulled in a site via a curl request, or a non-graphical >> browser such as lynx, you wouldn't need to request all those assets either. >> > > Yes, I've heard of CDN. But Arno isn't using it, as aren't others. And Oh - you even *heard* of CDN. Wow. JFTR: Our customers are *using* CDNs (and cloud services for stress testing as well to simulate 10.000 clients accessing a server at the same time - but maybe this is also something you just heard of and never used yourself). > the various frameworks which have been discussed don't use it. So your > comment is immaterial. And if you pull a site via curl or lynx, you're > not doing page views. The test was about how much PHP scripts can be handled per second - nothing else. And of course the number of page views is NOT higher than that and the test is in no way useless as the real world the number of possible page views will NEVER be higher than this. So I still say, that using Apache Bench gives good impression for what will happen when changing things in the examined PHP scripts. Just introducing a database connection which has to be established with every request may dramatically slow things down - and Apache Bench will clearly show this. Sometimes even the overhead of a framework alone is not as severe as just connecting to a database for every request and not re-using persistent connections. -- Arno Welzel http://arnowelzel.de http://de-rec-fahrrad.de http://fahrradzukunft.de
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| From | Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 14:06 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n6h438$t1b$2@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #16090 |
On 1/5/2016 12:55 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: > Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 15:08: > >> On 1/5/2016 2:02 AM, Matthew Carter wrote: > [...] >>> Also, we are discussing PHP - as javascript assets are not even >>> necessarily from the same server that is running the PHP script (ever >>> hear of a CDN?) they are not a factor, as they only impact client render >>> speed - if you pulled in a site via a curl request, or a non-graphical >>> browser such as lynx, you wouldn't need to request all those assets either. >>> >> >> Yes, I've heard of CDN. But Arno isn't using it, as aren't others. And > > Oh - you even *heard* of CDN. Wow. JFTR: Our customers are *using* CDNs > (and cloud services for stress testing as well to simulate 10.000 > clients accessing a server at the same time - but maybe this is also > something you just heard of and never used yourself). > >> the various frameworks which have been discussed don't use it. So your >> comment is immaterial. And if you pull a site via curl or lynx, you're >> not doing page views. > > The test was about how much PHP scripts can be handled per second - > nothing else. And of course the number of page views is NOT higher than > that and the test is in no way useless as the real world the number of > possible page views will NEVER be higher than this. > The test showed nothing. But you can't understand that there are a lot of factors other than just the script execution speed. > So I still say, that using Apache Bench gives good impression for what > will happen when changing things in the examined PHP scripts. Just > introducing a database connection which has to be established with every > request may dramatically slow things down - and Apache Bench will > clearly show this. Sometimes even the overhead of a framework alone is > not as severe as just connecting to a database for every request and not > re-using persistent connections. > > Keep thinking that. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle jstucklex@attglobal.net ==================
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| From | Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-04 15:51 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <xADiy.77226$Xk5.6144@fx17.iad> |
| In reply to | #16069 |
>>> Yes, frameworks. I can code pages as they need to be coded, instead of >>> trying to work around the restrictions of crappy frameworks. >>> >>> And my pages are smaller and load faster also, because I don't have to >>> load tons of unnecessary junk. >> I doubt that. Though I don't doubt they have more bugs and are harder >> to maintain. > > You have no idea. They are easy to maintain and have few bugs because > they don't include all kinds of unnecessary stuff. And since they don't > include unnecessary stuff, they load more quickly. > > Try coding for a site which gets up to 1K page views per second, for > instance. You aren't going to get that with Symfony2 or any other > framework. Funny, that's exactly the type of thing I work on. Symfyon2 does just fine, because we know how to code using it.
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| From | Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-04 19:41 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n6f3a8$dpl$3@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #16073 |
On 1/4/2016 6:51 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote: >>>> Yes, frameworks. I can code pages as they need to be coded, instead of >>>> trying to work around the restrictions of crappy frameworks. >>>> >>>> And my pages are smaller and load faster also, because I don't have to >>>> load tons of unnecessary junk. >>> I doubt that. Though I don't doubt they have more bugs and are harder >>> to maintain. >> >> You have no idea. They are easy to maintain and have few bugs because >> they don't include all kinds of unnecessary stuff. And since they don't >> include unnecessary stuff, they load more quickly. >> >> Try coding for a site which gets up to 1K page views per second, for >> instance. You aren't going to get that with Symfony2 or any other >> framework. > Funny, that's exactly the type of thing I work on. Symfyon2 does just > fine, because we know how to code using it. > > Let's see you do > 1K pages/second with real pages (not 1K hits with echo "Hello World") reliably. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle jstucklex@attglobal.net ==================
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| From | Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 04:27 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <568B382B.4040403@arnowelzel.de> |
| In reply to | #16075 |
Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 01:41: > On 1/4/2016 6:51 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote: [...] >> Funny, that's exactly the type of thing I work on. Symfyon2 does just >> fine, because we know how to code using it. > > Let's see you do > 1K pages/second with real pages (not 1K hits with > echo "Hello World") reliably. No - YOU show us YOUR application which handles 1000 page views per second! You can't? Well then - what are you talking about then? -- Arno Welzel http://arnowelzel.de http://de-rec-fahrrad.de http://fahrradzukunft.de
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| From | Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-04 22:31 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n6fd8d$72s$2@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #16077 |
On 1/4/2016 10:27 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: > Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 01:41: > >> On 1/4/2016 6:51 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote: > [...] >>> Funny, that's exactly the type of thing I work on. Symfyon2 does just >>> fine, because we know how to code using it. >> >> Let's see you do > 1K pages/second with real pages (not 1K hits with >> echo "Hello World") reliably. > > No - YOU show us YOUR application which handles 1000 page views per > second! You can't? Well then - what are you talking about then? > > > No, I'm not going to show you my client's code. But then I don't need to show a troll how to code. If you're such an expert, you should be able to do it yourself. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle jstucklex@attglobal.net ==================
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| From | Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 04:48 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <568B3D1C.5040004@arnowelzel.de> |
| In reply to | #16079 |
Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 04:31: > On 1/4/2016 10:27 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: >> Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 01:41: >> >>> On 1/4/2016 6:51 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote: >> [...] >>>> Funny, that's exactly the type of thing I work on. Symfyon2 does just >>>> fine, because we know how to code using it. >>> >>> Let's see you do > 1K pages/second with real pages (not 1K hits with >>> echo "Hello World") reliably. >> >> No - YOU show us YOUR application which handles 1000 page views per >> second! You can't? Well then - what are you talking about then? >> >> >> > > No, I'm not going to show you my client's code. But then I don't need I did not ask for code - I asked for an application. If you created something like the shop system of Amazon for example which may handle 1000 page views per second or even more - this would be an example for a real world application. > to show a troll how to code. If you're such an expert, you should be > able to do it yourself. No. YOU claim you can do this, not me. -- Arno Welzel http://arnowelzel.de http://de-rec-fahrrad.de http://fahrradzukunft.de
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| From | Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-04 22:52 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n6fegf$a8m$1@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #16080 |
On 1/4/2016 10:48 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: > Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 04:31: > >> On 1/4/2016 10:27 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: >>> Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 01:41: >>> >>>> On 1/4/2016 6:51 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote: >>> [...] >>>>> Funny, that's exactly the type of thing I work on. Symfyon2 does just >>>>> fine, because we know how to code using it. >>>> >>>> Let's see you do > 1K pages/second with real pages (not 1K hits with >>>> echo "Hello World") reliably. >>> >>> No - YOU show us YOUR application which handles 1000 page views per >>> second! You can't? Well then - what are you talking about then? >>> >>> >>> >> >> No, I'm not going to show you my client's code. But then I don't need > > I did not ask for code - I asked for an application. > > If you created something like the shop system of Amazon for example > which may handle 1000 page views per second or even more - this would be > an example for a real world application. > What is application without the code? And no, I'm not going to tell a troll who my clients are. I know better. >> to show a troll how to code. If you're such an expert, you should be >> able to do it yourself. > > No. YOU claim you can do this, not me. > > Yup, and I can. But I don't need to prove anything to a troll. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle jstucklex@attglobal.net ==================
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| From | Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 09:16 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <568B7BC7.8040508@arnowelzel.de> |
| In reply to | #16081 |
Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 04:52: > On 1/4/2016 10:48 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: [...] >> No. YOU claim you can do this, not me. >> >> > > Yup, and I can. But I don't need to prove anything to a troll. I see... -- Arno Welzel http://arnowelzel.de http://de-rec-fahrrad.de http://fahrradzukunft.de
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| From | Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 09:08 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n6gikh$nc2$2@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #16083 |
On 1/5/2016 3:16 AM, Arno Welzel wrote: > Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 04:52: > >> On 1/4/2016 10:48 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: > [...] >>> No. YOU claim you can do this, not me. >>> >>> >> >> Yup, and I can. But I don't need to prove anything to a troll. > > I see... > > You've got it, troll. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle jstucklex@attglobal.net ==================
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| From | Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 18:59 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <568C048F.3070001@arnowelzel.de> |
| In reply to | #16085 |
Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 15:08: > On 1/5/2016 3:16 AM, Arno Welzel wrote: >> Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 04:52: >> >>> On 1/4/2016 10:48 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: >> [...] >>>> No. YOU claim you can do this, not me. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Yup, and I can. But I don't need to prove anything to a troll. >> >> I see... >> >> > > You've got it, troll. Yep - I don't believe you. And I don't care if you call me troll, old man. -- Arno Welzel http://arnowelzel.de http://de-rec-fahrrad.de http://fahrradzukunft.de
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| From | Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 14:07 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n6h443$t1b$3@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #16091 |
On 1/5/2016 12:59 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: > Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 15:08: > >> On 1/5/2016 3:16 AM, Arno Welzel wrote: >>> Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 04:52: >>> >>>> On 1/4/2016 10:48 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: >>> [...] >>>>> No. YOU claim you can do this, not me. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Yup, and I can. But I don't need to prove anything to a troll. >>> >>> I see... >>> >>> >> >> You've got it, troll. > > Yep - I don't believe you. And I don't care if you call me troll, old man. > > I really don't care what trolls believe. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle jstucklex@attglobal.net ==================
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| From | Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-06 01:13 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <568C5C0F.3020807@arnowelzel.de> |
| In reply to | #16095 |
Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 20:07: > On 1/5/2016 12:59 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: [...] >> Yep - I don't believe you. And I don't care if you call me troll, old man. >> >> > > I really don't care what trolls believe. Wrong - otherwise you wouldn't always read my posts even though you call me a "troll". Isn't the right way to deal with trolls to ignore them? -- Arno Welzel http://arnowelzel.de http://de-rec-fahrrad.de http://fahrradzukunft.de
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| From | Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 20:52 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n6hrqu$m9s$2@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #16099 |
On 1/5/2016 7:13 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: > Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 20:07: > >> On 1/5/2016 12:59 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: > [...] >>> Yep - I don't believe you. And I don't care if you call me troll, old man. >>> >>> >> >> I really don't care what trolls believe. > > Wrong - otherwise you wouldn't always read my posts even though you call > me a "troll". Isn't the right way to deal with trolls to ignore them? > > ROFLMAO! Don't confusing reading your posts with caring what you say. I respond so that others don't think you know what you're doing and get the wrong impressions. And no, ignoring a problem never makes it go away. You're proof of that. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle jstucklex@attglobal.net ==================
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| From | Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-06 08:53 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <568CC7FE.2090402@arnowelzel.de> |
| In reply to | #16102 |
Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-06 um 02:52: > On 1/5/2016 7:13 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: >> Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 20:07: >> >>> On 1/5/2016 12:59 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: >> [...] >>>> Yep - I don't believe you. And I don't care if you call me troll, old man. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> I really don't care what trolls believe. >> >> Wrong - otherwise you wouldn't always read my posts even though you call >> me a "troll". Isn't the right way to deal with trolls to ignore them? >> >> > > ROFLMAO! Don't confusing reading your posts with caring what you say. No - reading something *is* caring for what is written there. Otherwise one wouldn't read it. > I respond so that others don't think you know what you're doing and get > the wrong impressions. Which impression? That I know what I'm talking about as in <5686B656.3040603@arnowelzel.de> or <5687A8D7.8010505@arnowelzel.de>? Why didn't you comment these posts as well in your typical "the troll is writing again and never writes helpful posts"?. Your scheme is really easy to understand: If you don't agree with something, you call the people "troll". So in the future I will it see just like that - whenever you say "troll" it means "I don't agree". Well then. -- Arno Welzel http://arnowelzel.de http://de-rec-fahrrad.de http://fahrradzukunft.de
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| From | Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-06 09:15 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <n6j7d3$ifk$1@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #16103 |
On 1/6/2016 2:53 AM, Arno Welzel wrote: > Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-06 um 02:52: > >> On 1/5/2016 7:13 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: >>> Jerry Stuckle schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 20:07: >>> >>>> On 1/5/2016 12:59 PM, Arno Welzel wrote: >>> [...] >>>>> Yep - I don't believe you. And I don't care if you call me troll, old man. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> I really don't care what trolls believe. >>> >>> Wrong - otherwise you wouldn't always read my posts even though you call >>> me a "troll". Isn't the right way to deal with trolls to ignore them? >>> >>> >> >> ROFLMAO! Don't confusing reading your posts with caring what you say. > > No - reading something *is* caring for what is written there. Otherwise > one wouldn't read it. Like all trolls, you are a legend in your own mind. > >> I respond so that others don't think you know what you're doing and get >> the wrong impressions. > > Which impression? That I know what I'm talking about as in > <5686B656.3040603@arnowelzel.de> or <5687A8D7.8010505@arnowelzel.de>? > Why didn't you comment these posts as well in your typical "the troll is > writing again and never writes helpful posts"?. > Once in a while you get lucky. But even a blind pig finds a morsel once in a while. > Your scheme is really easy to understand: If you don't agree with > something, you call the people "troll". So in the future I will it see > just like that - whenever you say "troll" it means "I don't agree". Well > then. > > No, I call trolls trolls. There are a lot of people I disagree with who are not trolls. But they don't do things like unmungs people's email addresses and search out unrelated information on the internet. Those are troll behaviors. -- ================== Remove the "x" from my email address Jerry Stuckle jstucklex@attglobal.net ==================
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| From | Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 09:00 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <FESiy.93858$b8.83333@fx29.iad> |
| In reply to | #16075 |
On 1/4/16 4:41 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 1/4/2016 6:51 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote: >>>>> Yes, frameworks. I can code pages as they need to be coded, instead of >>>>> trying to work around the restrictions of crappy frameworks. >>>>> >>>>> And my pages are smaller and load faster also, because I don't have to >>>>> load tons of unnecessary junk. >>>> I doubt that. Though I don't doubt they have more bugs and are harder >>>> to maintain. >>> >>> You have no idea. They are easy to maintain and have few bugs because >>> they don't include all kinds of unnecessary stuff. And since they don't >>> include unnecessary stuff, they load more quickly. >>> >>> Try coding for a site which gets up to 1K page views per second, for >>> instance. You aren't going to get that with Symfony2 or any other >>> framework. >> Funny, that's exactly the type of thing I work on. Symfyon2 does just >> fine, because we know how to code using it. >> >> > > Let's see you do > 1K pages/second with real pages (not 1K hits with > echo "Hello World") reliably. The company I work for is in the top 10 on this page: https://www.comscore.com/Insights/Market-Rankings/comScore-Ranks-the-Top-50-US-Digital-Media-Properties-for-May-2015 I'm refraining from mentioning it due to company policy. I don't want to give the impression that my personal opinions here in any way reflect the opinions of my employer.
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| From | Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-01-05 19:01 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <568C04F1.3070900@arnowelzel.de> |
| In reply to | #16089 |
Daniel Pitts schrieb am 2016-01-05 um 18:00: > On 1/4/16 4:41 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >> On 1/4/2016 6:51 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote: >>>>>> Yes, frameworks. I can code pages as they need to be coded, instead of >>>>>> trying to work around the restrictions of crappy frameworks. >>>>>> >>>>>> And my pages are smaller and load faster also, because I don't have to >>>>>> load tons of unnecessary junk. >>>>> I doubt that. Though I don't doubt they have more bugs and are harder >>>>> to maintain. >>>> >>>> You have no idea. They are easy to maintain and have few bugs because >>>> they don't include all kinds of unnecessary stuff. And since they don't >>>> include unnecessary stuff, they load more quickly. >>>> >>>> Try coding for a site which gets up to 1K page views per second, for >>>> instance. You aren't going to get that with Symfony2 or any other >>>> framework. >>> Funny, that's exactly the type of thing I work on. Symfyon2 does just >>> fine, because we know how to code using it. >>> >>> >> >> Let's see you do > 1K pages/second with real pages (not 1K hits with >> echo "Hello World") reliably. > The company I work for is in the top 10 on this page: > https://www.comscore.com/Insights/Market-Rankings/comScore-Ranks-the-Top-50-US-Digital-Media-Properties-for-May-2015 > > I'm refraining from mentioning it due to company policy. I don't want > to give the impression that my personal opinions here in any way reflect > the opinions of my employer. I bet Jerry will tell us now, that the companies he works for are even bigger ;-) -- Arno Welzel http://arnowelzel.de http://de-rec-fahrrad.de http://fahrradzukunft.de
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