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anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP?

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  anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-02 13:27 -0700
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> - 2013-02-02 14:57 -0600
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 03:45 -0700
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> - 2013-02-03 06:00 -0600
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2013-02-02 16:27 -0500
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 03:49 -0700
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-03 11:00 +0000
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2013-02-03 10:17 -0500
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 11:40 -0700
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2013-02-03 14:00 -0500
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Richard Yates <richard@yatesguitar.com> - 2013-02-03 13:56 -0800
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Martin <no@spam.invalid> - 2013-02-04 01:53 +0100
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-04 02:40 +0000
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-04 09:14 +0000
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 02:32 -0700
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2013-02-04 11:06 -0500
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 09:15 -0700
                    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-04 16:24 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2013-02-04 11:35 -0500
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 02:22 -0700
                          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-05 12:16 +0000
                            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 11:49 -0700
                              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-05 21:22 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-04 16:38 +0000
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in   PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-02-04 17:41 +0100
                          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in   PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-04 16:58 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 02:21 -0700
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-05 12:15 +0000
                          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 11:52 -0700
                            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-05 21:23 +0000
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-05 06:00 +0000
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-05 13:49 +0100
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2013-02-05 08:22 -0500
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@wizardstower> - 2013-02-05 08:50 -0600
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-04 08:40 +0100
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 02:49 -0700
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2013-02-02 15:43 -0600
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 03:57 -0700
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Keith D. Lee" <keithdlee2012@gmail.com> - 2013-02-02 22:20 +0000
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 04:13 -0700
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-04 12:23 +0000
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 08:57 -0700
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-05 14:04 +0100
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-05 13:59 +0100
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-02-03 10:58 +0100
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 04:20 -0700
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2013-02-03 12:44 +0100
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-03 11:50 +0000
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> - 2013-02-03 13:47 +0100
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-03 13:23 +0000
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-04 11:32 +0000
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-03 11:43 -0700
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-03 13:08 +0000
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in   PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-02-03 14:49 +0100
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-02-03 08:16 -0600
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-02-03 15:28 +0000
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-02-03 09:39 -0600
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-02-03 17:50 +0100
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-02-03 11:24 -0600
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-03 19:25 +0000
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-02-03 20:25 +0000
                    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-03 21:47 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-02-03 16:32 -0600
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-03 22:59 +0000
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-04 00:21 +0000
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-04 11:46 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-02-03 23:13 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in    PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-02-04 17:21 +0100
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in    PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-04 16:28 +0000
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in  PHP? John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2013-02-03 14:26 -0600
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in   PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-04 11:37 +0000
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-03 13:17 +0000
    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-04 08:38 +0100
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-04 09:04 +0000
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-04 10:29 +0100
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-04 09:34 +0000
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 03:06 -0700
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 03:01 -0700
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 09:08 -0700
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "M. Strobel" <sorry_no_mail_here@nowhere.dee> - 2013-02-04 17:34 +0100
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-04 16:44 +0000
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 02:36 -0700
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-02-05 01:49 -0800
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-05 15:03 +0000
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 12:07 -0700
                    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-05 20:22 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-05 22:27 +0000
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-06 00:06 +0000
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-06 04:32 -0700
                          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-02-06 11:50 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-06 04:22 -0700
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-06 15:37 +0000
                    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-05 22:13 +0000
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2013-02-05 23:38 +0000
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 02:26 -0700
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-05 10:31 +0000
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-05 13:41 +0100
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2013-02-05 12:56 +0000
                    Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-05 14:08 +0100
                      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 12:24 -0700
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> - 2013-02-05 20:14 +0000
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Aragorn <stryder@telenet.be.invalid> - 2013-02-06 06:27 +0100
                        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> - 2013-02-06 19:48 -0600
                          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? "Cybe R. Wizard" <cybe_r_wizard@wizardstower> - 2013-02-06 22:44 -0600
                            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? GooseMan <TheGoose@gonnagiveittothegander.org> - 2013-02-06 21:38 -0800
                            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-07 15:13 +0100
                            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? DanS <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> - 2013-02-10 08:09 -0600
                  Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 12:10 -0700
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-02-05 21:51 +0000
                Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2013-02-05 22:32 +0000
              Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Meeh <meeh@i2pmail.org> - 2013-02-05 17:51 +0100
      Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-04 02:55 -0700
        Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-05 13:42 +0100
          Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> - 2013-02-05 12:28 -0700
            Re: anyone else writing Linux (or cross-system) applications in PHP? Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2013-02-09 20:58 +0100

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#8254

On Monday, February 4th, 2013, at 09:08:21h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:

> The original post didn't ask for someone to help a poor weenie build 
> desktop applications in PHP, it asked who else is writing Linux or 
> cross-system applications in PHP, with perhaps some hope of finding out 
> where they're discussing it.

It would be helpful if you could give some examples of what type
of applications you are in the processing of writing, as "Linux
application or cross-system application" is really so vague as to
be practically meaningless.

Why not post your question to newsgroup alt.php and see
if you get any answers?

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#8261

On 02/04/2013 09:44 AM, J G Miller wrote:
> On Monday, February 4th, 2013, at 09:08:21h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:
>
>> The original post didn't ask for someone to help a poor weenie build
>> desktop applications in PHP, it asked who else is writing Linux or
>> cross-system applications in PHP, with perhaps some hope of finding out
>> where they're discussing it.
>
> It would be helpful if you could give some examples of what type
> of applications you are in the processing of writing, as "Linux
> application or cross-system application" is really so vague as to
> be practically meaningless.

The two applications that are furthest progressed are a partition-backup 
utility and a boot-setup utility.  Both of these are for Linux rather 
than being cross-system.  The only cross-system application I've written 
in PHP so far is an accounting application for small businesses, but it 
hasn't even been looked at for a couple years at least.

Probably the next two I'll address will be a file-manager to replace 
Nautilus et-al, and a text editor.  Unless I hold to my earlier plan to 
resolve the oops-wrong-includes situation, or do something entirely 
different.

> Why not post your question to newsgroup alt.php and see
> if you get any answers?
>

I'll check with google groups to see if that one's active these days, a 
few years back I tried subscribing to it and it was fairly dead.  If 
what you really meant was "why not go away" that will doubtless happen 
once people stop responding to this thread.

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#8262

In article <keqjqq01l1p@news3.newsguy.com>,
 crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> wrote:

> On 02/04/2013 09:44 AM, J G Miller wrote:
> > On Monday, February 4th, 2013, at 09:08:21h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:
> >
> >> The original post didn't ask for someone to help a poor weenie build
> >> desktop applications in PHP, it asked who else is writing Linux or
> >> cross-system applications in PHP, with perhaps some hope of finding out
> >> where they're discussing it.
> >
> > It would be helpful if you could give some examples of what type
> > of applications you are in the processing of writing, as "Linux
> > application or cross-system application" is really so vague as to
> > be practically meaningless.
> 
> The two applications that are furthest progressed are a partition-backup 
> utility and a boot-setup utility.  Both of these are for Linux rather 
> than being cross-system.  The only cross-system application I've written 
> in PHP so far is an accounting application for small businesses, but it 
> hasn't even been looked at for a couple years at least.
> 
> Probably the next two I'll address will be a file-manager to replace 
> Nautilus et-al, and a text editor.  Unless I hold to my earlier plan to 
> resolve the oops-wrong-includes situation, or do something entirely 
> different.
> 
> > Why not post your question to newsgroup alt.php and see
> > if you get any answers?
> >
> 
> I'll check with google groups to see if that one's active these days, a 
> few years back I tried subscribing to it and it was fairly dead.  If 
> what you really meant was "why not go away" that will doubtless happen 
> once people stop responding to this thread.

This guy just seems to like hearing himself 'talk' or post his 
pronouncements on news.  Until I saw Rachel Madow talk about the NRA's 
attack ad mentioning Obama's girls, I'd only ever come across trolling 
here in news groups.  I don't frequent web-based forums much.  This guy 
is spouting philosphy and approaches, purely, I think, to evoke a 
response.  With the news groups this thread has subscribed, he's 
certainly getting it.

I don't have a computer science degreee but I've been writing software 
for 30 years and managed servers and projects that worked and lots that 
didn't.  The "what language should I use" is most often answered "Which 
one do you know the best and how soon can you get this written?"  
Fortran is fine for computational stuff.  C for LOTS of things. I still 
haven't drank the OOP Koolaid yet, but php's implementation of that 
seems OK.  Perl's is just weird.  I learned what languages I needed to 
do a job.

So far, I haven't seen anything remotely discussing a concrete goal.  I 
can't talk about 'modern' languages because I haven't bother to learn 
them.  

Mr. Crankypants, are you trying to do something in particular or are you 
complaining that Obama's kids get special treatment?

-- 
DeeDee, don't press that button!  DeeDee!  NO!  Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]

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#8281

On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 02:36:24h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:

> The two applications that are furthest progressed are a partition-backup 
> utility and a boot-setup utility.

Thank you for the clarification in providing the details.

I rather curious as what you mean by boot-setup utility though.
Do you mean a replacement for GRUB or something that configures
grub?  Or something that configures the contents of initramfs
or something that configures sysVinit/upstart/systemd?

> I'll check with google groups to see if that one's active these days

Why Google groups?  You have a newsreader do you not and a quick
visit with that to alt.php shews that there are some recent posts
and discussion (not a lot but some).

> If what you really meant was "why not go away"

I have never told anybody on Usenet to go away.  I may have
inferred to some "quit whining with the same stuck in the
groove needle" (because it does get tiresome after a while),
but never go away.

In fact I would suggest that those postings with contrary views
generate the most discussion, and provided that they do not
descend into flames and personal abuse, are sometimes quite
informative.

> that will doubtless happen once people stop responding to this thread.

Apart from spam and troll postings (neither of which applies to
your postings) that is the best way to kill Usenet discussion.

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#8285

On 02/05/2013 08:03 AM, J G Miller wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 02:36:24h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:
>
>> The two applications that are furthest progressed are a partition-backup
>> utility and a boot-setup utility.
>
> Thank you for the clarification in providing the details.
>
> I rather curious as what you mean by boot-setup utility though.
> Do you mean a replacement for GRUB or something that configures
> grub?  Or something that configures the contents of initramfs
> or something that configures sysVinit/upstart/systemd?

There used to be a tool called "grub-customizer".  I started using it a 
year or so ago.  A few months back it seemed to go down the tubes.  It 
added support for burg and basically turned into a random-config-generator.

What I'm building is a replacement for it, something more general and 
somewhat simpler.  Currently it only supports grub-2 to a limited 
extent, it doesn't yet allow specification of most of the available 
parameters, but it does generate a working config which is more than I 
can say for grub-customizer when I uninstalled it.  Eventually it's 
likely to support grub-legacy and maybe lilo and whatever, there's no 
conceptual reason that can't be done.  It just flat ignores whatever 
happens to be in /etc/grub.d/ and builds a /boot/grub/grub.cfg file from 
your specifications; it saves the abstracted information about the boot 
setup in an xml file in root so you don't have to specify everything 
every time.  I've been using it for a couple months now and it does the 
job; when you run it, it brings up a list of all your bootable 
partitions, and lets you walk through a few menus to specify your boot 
config.  Those who are happy dicking around with /etc/grub.d/ probably 
wouldn't like it at all, but it does leave /etc/grub.d/ in whatever 
shambles it was in before it was used.

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#8293

On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 12:07:47h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:

> Currently it only supports grub-2 to a limited extent, it doesn't yet
> allow specification of most of the available parameters, but it does
> generate a working config which is more than I can say for grub-customizer
> when I uninstalled it.

Okay I follow, but does it successfully auto probe for all the different
OSes which may be present on all of the different file systems?

> but it does leave /etc/grub.d/ in whatever shambles it was in before
> it was used.

grub.d is certainly an abomination and each distribution makes it worse,
notably the chain debian -> ubuntu -> mint

Want to add another item, then the config script has to tail itself
on to the configuration, eg my just added plop_40

#!/bin/sh

exec tail -n +4 $0

menuentry "Plop Boot Manager" {
        set root=(hd0,6)
        linux16 /plop-boot-image
}

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#8299

On 2013-02-05, J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 12:07:47h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:
>
>> Currently it only supports grub-2 to a limited extent, it doesn't yet
>> allow specification of most of the available parameters, but it does
>> generate a working config which is more than I can say for grub-customizer
>> when I uninstalled it.
>
> Okay I follow, but does it successfully auto probe for all the different
> OSes which may be present on all of the different file systems?
>
>> but it does leave /etc/grub.d/ in whatever shambles it was in before
>> it was used.
>
> grub.d is certainly an abomination and each distribution makes it worse,
> notably the chain debian -> ubuntu -> mint
>
> Want to add another item, then the config script has to tail itself
> on to the configuration, eg my just added plop_40
>
> #!/bin/sh
>
> exec tail -n +4 $0
>
> menuentry "Plop Boot Manager" {
>         set root=(hd0,6)
>         linux16 /plop-boot-image
> }
>

I think the idea is to make packaging stuff easier.
by making the fragments executable they allow maximum compile-time
capability without much work.

if you're happy to write a customised configuation file after
installing the software then grub.d isn't for you, if on the other
hand you just want it to work it's a neat invention.



-- 
⚂⚃ 100% natural

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#8305

On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 22:27:59h +0000,
Jasen Betts wrote:

> I think the idea is to make packaging stuff easier.

Well that is probably the priority of most packagers ;)

> if you're happy to write a customised configuation file after
> installing the software then grub.d isn't for you

That is no doubt the reason why I dislike grub.d so much.

> if on the other hand you just want it to work it's a neat invention.

But as corrupted by ubuntu and then even more so by mint, it just
produces a white text on black grub screen and life is made so
more difficult in trying to just display a background image.

Notwithstanding, the os-prober bit is, as you say, good because
it just works.

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#8309

On 02/05/2013 03:27 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
> On 2013-02-05, J G Miller <miller@yoyo.ORG> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 12:07:47h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:
>>
>>> Currently it only supports grub-2 to a limited extent, it doesn't yet
>>> allow specification of most of the available parameters, but it does
>>> generate a working config which is more than I can say for grub-customizer
>>> when I uninstalled it.
>>
>> Okay I follow, but does it successfully auto probe for all the different
>> OSes which may be present on all of the different file systems?
>>
>>> but it does leave /etc/grub.d/ in whatever shambles it was in before
>>> it was used.
>>
>> grub.d is certainly an abomination and each distribution makes it worse,
>> notably the chain debian -> ubuntu -> mint
>>
>> Want to add another item, then the config script has to tail itself
>> on to the configuration, eg my just added plop_40
>>
>> #!/bin/sh
>>
>> exec tail -n +4 $0
>>
>> menuentry "Plop Boot Manager" {
>>          set root=(hd0,6)
>>          linux16 /plop-boot-image
>> }
>>
>
> I think the idea is to make packaging stuff easier.
> by making the fragments executable they allow maximum compile-time
> capability without much work.

Avoiding work can be done in a number of ways, such as putting the work 
in library or utility package so it can be reused---you do more work now 
and avoid lots later.  Avoiding it by putting it in batch files for 
other people to deal with seems kind of self-defeating... by doing that 
you've invented an unparsable form for storing critical information.  In 
the case of grub2 people are basically stuck with editing it by hand 
forever.

> if you're happy to write a customised configuation file after
> installing the software then grub.d isn't for you, if on the other
> hand you just want it to work it's a neat invention.

I have never found it to "just work" since about the first time I 
installed Ubuntu.  Kernel updates and post-processing to update grub 
seems prone to breaking those critical links in root.

What I did find was that I could get it to work by carefully 
hand-editing the obscured information in the /etc/grub.d/ scripts, but I 
got tired of cutting and pasting uuid's every time the thing decided to 
probe reality and rewrite proxified scripts, and took a different approach.

Not everybody wants the same thing.

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#8310

crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> writes:
> Jasen Betts wrote:

>> if you're happy to write a customised configuation file after
>> installing the software then grub.d isn't for you, if on the other
>> hand you just want it to work it's a neat invention.
>
> I have never found it to "just work" since about the first time I
> installed Ubuntu.  Kernel updates and post-processing to update grub
> seems prone to breaking those critical links in root.

Grub has nothing to do with their maintenance.  TTBOMK they’re only
required if you have a boot loader that depends on them, which doesn’t
include Grub.

-- 
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#8308

On 02/05/2013 01:22 PM, J G Miller wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 12:07:47h -0700, Cranky Puss explained:
>
>> Currently it only supports grub-2 to a limited extent, it doesn't yet
>> allow specification of most of the available parameters, but it does
>> generate a working config which is more than I can say for grub-customizer
>> when I uninstalled it.
>
> Okay I follow, but does it successfully auto probe for all the different
> OSes which may be present on all of the different file systems?

Probably not, I don't even know what "all the different OSes" are.  It 
finds Ubuntu (the only distro I have tested it with so far) and would 
probably find any linux distro since those checks are fairly basic 
(though who knows what is out there), it finds Windows Vista, and 
Windows XP.  That's all it's been tested with.

As a philosophical aside, it seems to be a need to support everything 
that contributes most heavily to nothing's being supported very well.

>> but it does leave /etc/grub.d/ in whatever shambles it was in before
>> it was used.
>
> grub.d is certainly an abomination and each distribution makes it worse,
> notably the chain debian -> ubuntu -> mint
>
> Want to add another item, then the config script has to tail itself
> on to the configuration, eg my just added plop_40
>
> #!/bin/sh
>
> exec tail -n +4 $0
>
> menuentry "Plop Boot Manager" {
>          set root=(hd0,6)
>          linux16 /plop-boot-image
> }
>

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#8314

On Tuesday, February 5th, 2013, at 20:22:54h +0000, J G Miller wrote:

> Want to add another item, then the config script has to tail itself
> on to the configuration, eg my just added plop_40

Incidentally, if anybody is wondering why on earth anybody would want
to add a closed source boot loader on to the GRUB menu, the answer is
to be able to go into PLOP to boot a USB device, especially on a PC whose
BIOS does not support booting USB devices.

And for those PCs who do support direct booting from USB devices, this
arrangement is also needed if one does not want to go into the BIOS
to change the device boot order settings and not to automagically try
any USB disk which may happen to have been left plugged in at boot time.

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#8298

On 2013-02-05, crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> wrote:

> What I'm building is a replacement for it, something more general and 
> somewhat simpler.  Currently it only supports grub-2 to a limited 
> extent, it doesn't yet allow specification of most of the available 
> parameters, but it does generate a working config which is more than I 
> can say for grub-customizer when I uninstalled it.  Eventually it's 
> likely to support grub-legacy and maybe lilo and whatever, there's no 
> conceptual reason that can't be done.  It just flat ignores whatever 
> happens to be in /etc/grub.d/ and builds a /boot/grub/grub.cfg file from 
> your specifications; it saves the abstracted information about the boot 
> setup in an xml file in root so you don't have to specify everything 
> every time.  I've been using it for a couple months now and it does the 
> job; when you run it, it brings up a list of all your bootable 
> partitions, and lets you walk through a few menus to specify your boot 
> config.  Those who are happy dicking around with /etc/grub.d/ probably 
> wouldn't like it at all, but it does leave /etc/grub.d/ in whatever 
> shambles it was in before it was used.

I think /etc/grub.d is what lets me install memtest86 without editing
any config files, it's purpose is to allow pluggable componets without 
groping through config files. a task it achieves well. possibly it's a
debian thing 

they did the same to init, cron, logrotate, exim, apache ...

trying to fight it is probably going to be counter-productive 

-- 
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

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#8304

Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> writes:
> I think /etc/grub.d is what lets me install memtest86 without editing
> any config files, it's purpose is to allow pluggable componets without 
> groping through config files. a task it achieves well. possibly it's a
> debian thing 

grub-mkconfig is an upstream feature.

-- 
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#8260

On 02/04/2013 09:08 AM, crankypuss wrote:
> On 02/04/2013 02:29 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Am 04.02.2013 10:04, schrieb Tim Streater:
>>
>>> In article <510F6570.8060103@arnowelzel.de>,
>>> Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> crankypuss, 2013-02-02 21:27:
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>> > Is there a forum where the other folks (presuming there are any) who
>>>> > have been writing applications in PHP hang out?  Don't say "yeah
>>>> dummy,
>>>> > go to comp.lang.python" please, my homor quotient is maxed out for
>>>> > today. <g>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe <http://gtk.php.net/> is what you are looking for.
>>>
>>> Website hasn't been updated for three years.
>>
>> I know - but this is everything i'm aware of for building "standalone"
>> applications with a GUI. If you can recommend something better - feel
>> free to do so. Maybe the OP will understand, why using PHP for this
>> purpose is not the best idea ;-)
>
> Sometimes it's hard for me to grasp the idea that most people just use
> whatever is sitting on the shelf and would never consider the idea of
> building something else; usually it's at least as difficult for them to
> grasp the idea that for me applications are not half as interesting as
> the tools that enable them.  See, I don't *care* what's available this
> week for writing standalone apps under PHP, what I mostly care about is
> what the underlying operating system will support reliably and what the
> PHP language itself is capable of.
>
> The original post didn't ask for someone to help a poor weenie build
> desktop applications in PHP, it asked who else is writing Linux or
> cross-system applications in PHP, with perhaps some hope of finding out
> where they're discussing it.
>
> So far the answer is "no, we're using stuff we think is easier" with the
> possibility that M. Strobel is also engaged in this bizarre activity
> (though he didn't say yea or nay but commented on its applicability).

... Jason Betts seems to be using PHP for desktop applications but 
through a java front-end?  And perhaps Tim Streater is doing something 
with it too.

Not a whole huge mob of folks. <g>

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#8264

In article <keqj7f21khr@news3.newsguy.com>,
 crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> wrote:

> ... Jason Betts seems to be using PHP for desktop applications but 
> through a java front-end?  And perhaps Tim Streater is doing something 
> with it too.

My desktop app uses JavaScript to present to the user, and PHP for 
backend stuff such as writing to SQLite databases, communicating over 
the net, writing log files, and other functions that the app needs. I 
use apache/ajax to communicate between the two. As I said before - 
heavy? Sure, but who cares.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#8267

Tim Streater, 2013-02-05 11:31:

> In article <keqj7f21khr@news3.newsguy.com>,
> crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> ... Jason Betts seems to be using PHP for desktop applications but
>> through a java front-end?  And perhaps Tim Streater is doing something
>> with it too.
> 
> My desktop app uses JavaScript to present to the user, and PHP for
> backend stuff such as writing to SQLite databases, communicating over
> the net, writing log files, and other functions that the app needs. I
> use apache/ajax to communicate between the two. As I said before -
> heavy? Sure, but who cares.

I would care if i would need all that stuff just to be able to run an
application. It's not only about processing power or memory consumption
- but also about security and stability. The more components you put
together the more likely something can go wrong.


-- 
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de

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#8270

In article <5110FDFB.4030601@arnowelzel.de>,
 Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:

> Tim Streater, 2013-02-05 11:31:
> 
> > In article <keqj7f21khr@news3.newsguy.com>,
> > crankypuss <noemail@noemail.invalid> wrote:
> > 
> >> ... Jason Betts seems to be using PHP for desktop applications but
> >> through a java front-end?  And perhaps Tim Streater is doing something
> >> with it too.
> > 
> > My desktop app uses JavaScript to present to the user, and PHP for
> > backend stuff such as writing to SQLite databases, communicating over
> > the net, writing log files, and other functions that the app needs. I
> > use apache/ajax to communicate between the two. As I said before -
> > heavy? Sure, but who cares.
> 
> I would care if i would need all that stuff just to be able to run an
> application. It's not only about processing power or memory consumption
> - but also about security and stability. The more components you put
> together the more likely something can go wrong.

Look, here's a bar magnet and a magnifying glass. Now you can edit the 
bits directly on the disk, no need for any software components at all. 
Happy now?

The items I alluded to come standard with the OS. I merely make use of 
them.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689

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#8273

Tim Streater, 2013-02-05 13:56:

> In article <5110FDFB.4030601@arnowelzel.de>,
> Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
> 
[...]
>> > My desktop app uses JavaScript to present to the user, and PHP for
>> > backend stuff such as writing to SQLite databases, communicating over
>> > the net, writing log files, and other functions that the app needs. I
>> > use apache/ajax to communicate between the two. As I said before -
>> > heavy? Sure, but who cares.
>>
>> I would care if i would need all that stuff just to be able to run an
>> application. It's not only about processing power or memory consumption
>> - but also about security and stability. The more components you put
>> together the more likely something can go wrong.
> 
> Look, here's a bar magnet and a magnifying glass. Now you can edit the
> bits directly on the disk, no need for any software components at all.
> Happy now?

You don't get it or you never wrote an application which you made
available to the public.


-- 
Arno Welzel
http://arnowelzel.de
http://de-rec-fahrrad.de

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#8287

On 02/05/2013 06:08 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Tim Streater, 2013-02-05 13:56:
>
>> In article <5110FDFB.4030601@arnowelzel.de>,
>> Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:
>>
> [...]
>>>> My desktop app uses JavaScript to present to the user, and PHP for
>>>> backend stuff such as writing to SQLite databases, communicating over
>>>> the net, writing log files, and other functions that the app needs. I
>>>> use apache/ajax to communicate between the two. As I said before -
>>>> heavy? Sure, but who cares.
>>>
>>> I would care if i would need all that stuff just to be able to run an
>>> application. It's not only about processing power or memory consumption
>>> - but also about security and stability. The more components you put
>>> together the more likely something can go wrong.
>>
>> Look, here's a bar magnet and a magnifying glass. Now you can edit the
>> bits directly on the disk, no need for any software components at all.
>> Happy now?
>
> You don't get it or you never wrote an application which you made
> available to the public.
>

I used to make some stuff available to others, and I've used more cuss 
words on other people's components than anything else... for that matter 
I've yet to find an operating system that I can really trust over the 
long haul, application code keeps having to implement workaround after 
workaround to counteract changes in successive releases.  I remember 
some gawdawful conditional assembler code to make some stuff that should 
have been pretty simple just keep working as the system interfaces 
shifted around under it like jello.

Sometimes I think "what the world needs" (or at least, what I'd like to 
have a copy of) is a Linux distro called LCDlinux (for Lowest Common 
Denominator) so an LCD could actually be *established* and then improved 
at the system level.  (And no, its name ain't "slackware" as far as I 
can tell.)  I don't think I've seen a really clean set of system 
interfaces since CP/M or maybe OS/360, "modern" interfaces seem designed 
to make it easy for system developers, or perhaps tg maximize the amount 
of hoop-jumping on the part of application developers.

Meanwhile the idea of distributing any of my PHP applications gives me 
the shudders because of the dozens of includes and hundreds of 
subroutines all needing to be in the right directories and so forth. 
One of these days I'll go back and rework some parsing code I built 
while doing web-apps and use it to collect all the subroutines into a 
single file, or better yet gzip them and embed the compressed source in 
a tweaked-up copy of the PHP interpreter so that an application consists 
of one binary file.

Sometimes I would damn near take the bar magnet and magnifying glass 
just so I'd have something to work with that could actually be counted 
on, when you key the program in through the dip-switches at least you 
know what you have.

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