Re: simple session question

From	Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.php
Subject	Re: simple session question
Date	2011-10-23 15:28 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<j81pte$hth$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <j7uh5i$rvt$2@news.albasani.net> <j7vc0i$pnr$1@dont-email.me> <j7vm55$2q5$1@news.albasani.net> <j7vpo3$af1$1@dont-email.me> <j81h8f$avd$1@news.albasani.net>

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On 10/23/11 1:00 PM, Thomas Mlynarczyk wrote:
> Richard Damon schrieb:
>
>> The issue is C is that there is a general rule (to allow
>> optimizations) that defines the behavior to be undefined if an
>> expression causes a variable to be written to twice, or have a read
>> from and write to (where the read from is not needed to determine the
>> value to write to) without an intervening sequence point, like the end
>> of an expression.
>
> So basically, it boils down to "programmer" vs. "compiler": The
> programmer would like to have everything defined clearly, because
> anything "undefined" simply means (s)he cannot use that construct. The
> compiler, on the other hand, can work the better, the fewer restrictions
> there are, and thus "welcomes" anything left undefined. And C focuses
> more on the compiler, while PHP focuses more on the programmer.
>
>> The statement x = x++; has two different writes to x, so we meet the
>> requirement for undefined behavior. Not also that C does not limit
>> when the ++ part happens, only that this side effect will finish by
>> the next sequence point.
>
> So in C, the statement x = x++ is regarded "as a whole" and the compiler
> can do anything with it as long as certain constraints are observed,
> while PHP, being a higher level language than C, must have all the tiny
> internal steps well defined.
>
>> Part of the problem with this example is that it is a bit to simple,
>> and that simplicity hides some of the issues. Let us make the
>> expression just slightly more complicated to make it cleared. Let us
>> use x = 5*x++;
>
> If I have understood you correctly, this would be
>
> In PHP:
> [1] $tmp = $x;
> [2] $x = $x + 1;
> [3] $tmp = 5 * $tmp;
> [4] $x = $tmp;
> In exactly that order (or maybe [2] and [3] swapped as it would make no
> difference).
>
> In C:
> [TODO] RHS = 5 * (value of x before increment)
> [TODO] increment x
> [TODO] LHS = RHS
> With the only restriction on the order being that the third item must
> necessarily come after the first and it's up to the compiler to choose.
>
> Greetings,
> Thomas
>

Actually, both have the same basic steps (in principle)

(1) temp1 = x
(2) temp2 = x
(3) x = temp2 + 1
(4) temp3 = 5 * temp2
(5) x = temp3

(1 & 2 may be redundant and combined)
2,3 are the x++, 1,4,5 is the x = 5*x
by necessity we need the following order (can't use a value before it is 
available)

1 -> 4 -> 5
2 -> 3
and by the definition of x++, 1 -> 3

PHP appears to define the order to be

1,2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5

which means the increment of x is done tied to the fetching of the value 
of x.

C places no additional restrictions on the order of the parts.

In particular, 3 can come before or after 5, and if 3 is after 5, 2 can 
be before or after 5.

Thread

simple session question cerr <ron.eggler@gmail.com> - 2011-10-21 10:44 -0700
  Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-21 20:19 +0200
    Re: simple session question Jonathan Stein <jstein@image.dk> - 2011-10-21 20:51 +0200
      Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-21 22:00 +0200
        Re: simple session question Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2011-10-21 16:14 -0400
          Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-22 00:50 +0200
            Re: simple session question Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2011-10-21 19:05 -0400
              Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-22 15:40 +0200
                Re: simple session question Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2011-10-22 17:19 -0400
                Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-22 22:56 +0100
                Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 00:35 +0200
                Re: simple session question Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2011-10-22 23:43 +0100
                Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 01:56 +0200
                Re: simple session question Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2011-10-22 19:29 -0400
                Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 01:54 +0200
                Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 02:12 +0200
                Re: simple session question Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2011-10-22 21:13 -0400
                Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-23 08:44 +0100
                Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 17:31 +0200
                Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-23 17:18 +0100
                Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 19:14 +0200
                Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-23 18:16 +0100
                Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 19:00 +0200
                Re: simple session question Richard Damon <news.x.richarddamon@xoxy.net> - 2011-10-23 15:28 -0400
                Re: simple session question Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2011-10-22 23:03 -0400
                Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 19:06 +0200
                Re: simple session question Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2011-10-23 14:35 -0400
            Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-22 00:32 +0100
              Re: simple session question Luuk <Luuk@invalid.lan> - 2011-10-22 12:01 +0200
                Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-22 15:27 +0100
                Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-22 15:37 +0100
                Re: simple session question Luuk <Luuk@invalid.lan> - 2011-10-22 17:08 +0200
                OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Luuk <Luuk@invalid.lan> - 2011-10-22 17:17 +0200
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-22 16:54 +0100
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Luuk <Luuk@invalid.lan> - 2011-10-22 18:47 +0200
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-22 19:34 +0200
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Norman Peelman <npeelmandog@cfl.rr.com> - 2011-10-22 16:08 -0400
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2011-10-22 16:28 -0400
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 01:39 +0200
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Norman Peelman <npeelmandog@cfl.rr.com> - 2011-10-22 22:40 -0400
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2011-10-22 23:05 -0400
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-22 22:52 +0100
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 01:25 +0200
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-23 08:41 +0100
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 00:56 +0200
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Norman Peelman <npeelmandog@cfl.rr.com> - 2011-10-22 22:52 -0400
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 17:12 +0200
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2011-10-23 09:39 +0100
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-23 09:40 +0100
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2011-10-23 09:43 +0100
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question "Peter H. Coffin" <hellsop@ninehells.com> - 2011-11-05 15:04 -0500
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-22 22:47 +0100
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 01:22 +0200
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2011-10-23 08:40 +0100
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-23 17:04 +0200
                Re: OT: and even in Dart .........Re: simple session question "Peter H. Coffin" <hellsop@ninehells.com> - 2011-11-05 15:00 -0500
              Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-22 15:39 +0200
    Re: simple session question cerr <ron.eggler@gmail.com> - 2011-10-21 14:43 -0700
      Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-22 00:47 +0200
      Re: simple session question Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2011-10-21 19:06 -0400
    Re: simple session question cerr <ron.eggler@gmail.com> - 2011-10-21 14:17 -0700
      Re: simple session question Thomas Mlynarczyk <thomas@mlynarczyk-webdesign.de> - 2011-10-22 15:50 +0200
    Re: simple session question Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2011-10-23 15:47 +0000

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