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Groups > comp.lang.lisp > #60742 > unrolled thread

Resources to learn common lisp?

Started byMario Rosell <mario@mariorosell.es>
First post2026-02-20 22:53 +0100
Last post2026-08-20 10:16 -0300
Articles 20 on this page of 643 — 40 participants

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Contents

  Resources to learn common lisp? Mario Rosell <mario@mariorosell.es> - 2026-02-20 22:53 +0100
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Ben Bacarisse <ben@bsb.me.uk> - 2026-02-20 22:00 +0000
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Mario Rosell <mario@mariorosell.es> - 2026-02-21 12:25 +0100
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-02-21 10:24 -0500
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-21 21:30 +0000
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Mario Rosell <mario@mariorosell.es> - 2026-02-22 01:08 +0100
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-22 04:59 +0000
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Madhu <enometh@meer.net> - 2026-02-22 10:59 +0530
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-22 21:48 +0000
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 12:43 -0400
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 12:41 -0400
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-08 20:02 +0000
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 00:23 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-09 06:28 +0000
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-09 06:32 +0000
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 12:27 -0400
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 17:33 +0000
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 12:16 -0400
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-09 06:53 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Axel Reichert <mail@axel-reichert.de> - 2026-06-09 12:07 +0200
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-10 00:14 +0000
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-17 00:01 -0400
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-17 05:53 +0000
                        [OT] Disappearing documentation (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-17 09:06 +0100
                          Re: [OT] Disappearing documentation steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-19 19:05 -0400
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-19 19:01 -0400
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-20 00:02 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 17:22 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-13 13:59 -0700
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 00:55 +0000
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-14 01:43 -0700
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 05:45 +0000
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-09 00:35 +0000
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anthk GM <anthk@disroot.org> - 2026-08-15 22:29 +0000
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-15 23:38 +0000
              Buy the official standard from A.N.S.I. (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-16 11:25 +0800
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 12:37 -0400
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-09 00:33 +0000
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 00:22 -0400
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-06-09 01:22 -0400
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-09 06:17 +0000
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-09 06:50 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 12:40 -0400
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-11 00:26 +0000
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 22:10 -0400
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-16 21:37 -0700
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Joerg Mertens <joerg-mertens@t-online.de> - 2026-06-17 12:04 +0200
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-17 11:17 +0000
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-17 13:57 +0000
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-18 01:06 +0000
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-18 09:17 +0000
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-18 13:32 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-18 14:21 -0700
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-19 08:12 +0000
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-19 04:27 -0700
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-19 21:24 -0400
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-20 13:00 -0400
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-28 07:55 +0000
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-18 12:53 -0400
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-06-18 21:28 -0400
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-19 15:08 -0400
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-06-19 22:32 -0400
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-20 13:56 -0400
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-21 14:57 -0700
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-22 09:11 -0400
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-24 22:14 +0000
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-25 11:20 -0400
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 09:47 +0000
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-28 23:21 +0000
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-29 19:00 -0400
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-02 00:34 +0000
                                        Python blanks (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-02 08:39 +0100
                                          Re: Python blanks ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-07-02 09:24 +0000
                                            Re: Python blanks Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-02 21:10 +0000
                                              Re: Python blanks Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-03 00:34 +0100
                                                Re: Python blanks George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-07-03 02:10 -0400
                                                  Re: Python blanks Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-03 07:21 +0100
                                                    Re: Python blanks Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-03 01:47 -0700
                                                      Re: Python blanks Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-07-03 17:42 -0400
                                                      Re: Python blanks Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-04 04:15 +0000
                                                  Re: Python blanks yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2026-07-03 12:51 +0042
                                                    Re: Python blanks Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-03 11:34 -0700
                                                      Re: Python blanks Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2026-07-04 04:03 +0000
                                                        Re: Python blanks Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-04 04:18 +0000
                                                      Re: Python blanks tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 11:34 +0000
                                                        Re: Python blanks ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-07-09 13:15 +0000
                                                          Re: Python blanks tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 13:24 +0000
                                                        Re: Python blanks antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-07-09 14:01 +0000
                                                          Re: Python blanks tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 14:39 +0000
                                                            Re: Python blanks antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-07-09 21:03 +0000
                                                              Re: Python blanks tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 21:23 +0000
                                                              Re: Python blanks Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-09 23:09 +0000
                                                              Re: Python blanks steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-04 23:05 -0400
                                                                Re: Python blanks George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-08-06 09:57 -0400
                                                          Re: Python blanks Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-09 23:08 +0000
                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-07-02 13:41 -0400
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-03 05:45 +0000
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-07-03 10:12 -0400
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-03 18:43 -0700
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-04 23:28 +0000
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-04 17:22 -0700
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-05 01:47 +0000
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-04 23:24 +0000
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-07-04 21:48 -0400
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-05 23:56 +0000
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 09:47 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-20 13:43 -0400
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-06-20 22:28 -0400
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-22 09:16 -0400
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-27 23:38 +0000
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-26 00:43 +0000
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-27 02:52 +0000
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-19 19:06 -0400
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-11 05:27 -0400
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 22:12 -0400
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 12:24 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-11 05:57 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-06-11 21:07 -0400
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-12 13:06 +0000
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-13 00:13 +0000
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-13 07:25 +0000
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-13 08:25 +0000
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-13 08:46 +0000
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-13 08:52 +0000
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 05:57 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-15 10:10 +0100
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 05:56 +0000
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 11:46 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-18 01:03 +0000
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-18 07:52 +0000
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-27 23:35 +0000
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 20:56 -0400
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-06-13 00:55 -0400
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-13 07:43 +0000
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 21:37 -0400
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-13 13:09 -0700
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 01:02 +0000
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 10:12 +0000
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 22:54 -0400
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-06-17 00:07 -0400
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-17 08:33 +0000
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-19 18:48 -0400
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-19 18:28 -0400
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-12 12:42 +0000
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 23:32 -0400
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-09 09:36 -0400
              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-10 00:06 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-10 08:43 -0400
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-11 00:22 +0000
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-11 08:57 -0400
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-12 00:16 +0000
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 21:42 -0400
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-15 01:15 +0000
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-15 05:42 +0000
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-15 11:19 +0000
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-16 00:18 +0000
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-16 03:27 +0000
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-16 01:25 -0700
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-17 10:13 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-18 13:57 +0000
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-18 01:11 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-18 02:30 -0700
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-29 08:21 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-18 09:32 +0000
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-29 08:24 +0000
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-29 09:47 +0000
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-02 00:26 +0000
                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-07-02 18:22 -0400
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-03 04:04 +0000
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-07-03 02:16 -0400
                                            [OT] Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-03 07:29 +0100
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-07-03 10:18 -0400
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-04 03:51 +0000
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-07-04 09:23 -0400
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-05 01:46 +0000
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-04 21:44 -0700
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-05 05:17 +0000
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-05 08:43 +0100
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-07-06 05:13 -0400
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-05 01:03 -0700
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 12:31 +0000
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-07-11 14:55 -0400
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-05 08:42 +0100
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-07-05 11:02 -0400
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-06 01:10 +0000
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-07-06 05:21 -0400
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-07-07 11:52 -0400
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-07-08 01:46 +0000
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-08 03:04 +0000
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-07 19:30 -0700
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-07 19:34 -0700
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-03 22:03 -0700
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-04 05:44 +0000
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-04 03:21 -0700
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-04 23:22 +0000
                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 09:15 +0000
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-07-11 16:04 -0400
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-13 12:12 +0000
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-07-13 14:59 -0400
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-18 14:15 +0000
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-29 08:23 +0000
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-29 10:02 +0000
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-29 20:58 -0400
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 23:53 -0400
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-17 05:55 +0000
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-17 01:43 -0700
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-18 01:07 +0000
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-19 18:58 -0400
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-19 18:52 -0400
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-20 00:04 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-11 06:37 -0400
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-13 13:30 -0700
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 00:58 +0000
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-14 01:46 -0700
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-15 06:59 -0400
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-15 12:25 -0700
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-28 07:47 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-11 17:42 +0000
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-12 00:16 +0000
                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-12 12:34 +0000
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-13 00:11 +0000
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-13 04:06 -0400
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-13 13:37 -0700
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-13 21:25 +0000
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-13 15:26 -0700
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 05:37 +0000
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-15 01:34 +0000
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-15 05:43 +0000
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-15 11:23 +0000
                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-16 00:23 +0000
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-16 03:29 +0000
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-16 04:59 +0000
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-16 15:10 -0700
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-28 22:42 -0400
                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-29 06:01 +0000
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-29 20:12 -0400
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-02 00:35 +0000
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-07-29 15:53 -0400
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 13:34 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-28 22:41 -0400
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-28 20:31 -0700
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-29 20:04 -0400
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-29 17:44 -0700
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-13 08:36 +0000
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 01:43 +0000
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-14 10:36 -0400
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 23:55 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-14 18:04 -0700
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 12:33 +0000
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-27 02:56 +0000
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-27 20:25 +0000
                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-28 23:37 +0000
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-28 16:55 -0700
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-29 08:41 +0000
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-03 00:44 +0000
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-29 07:33 +0000
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-03 00:30 +0000
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-07-29 16:08 -0400
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-29 23:53 +0000
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-04 22:22 -0400
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 22:00 +0000
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-05 22:34 +0000
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-08 22:05 +0800
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-09 18:42 -0400
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-10 01:48 +0000
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 21:18 -0400
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-11 11:19 +0100
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-11 10:00 -0300
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-11 18:31 +0100
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Cóilín Nioclásín Glostéir <thanks-to@Taf.com> - 2026-08-11 19:35 +0000
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-11 20:56 +0100
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Cóilín Nioclásín Glostéir <thanks-to@Taf.com> - 2026-08-11 20:21 +0000
                                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-11 22:44 +0100
                                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Cóilín Nioclásín Glostéir <thanks-to@Taf.com> - 2026-08-11 22:50 +0000
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-12 01:35 +0000
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Cóilín Nioclásín Glostéir <thanks-to@Taf.com> - 2026-08-12 16:28 +0000
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-13 05:03 +0000
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-14 07:14 +0100
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-14 06:47 +0000
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-14 01:33 -0700
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-13 11:42 -0300
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-13 15:39 +0000
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-13 16:52 -0300
                                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-14 05:04 +0800
                                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-14 08:16 -0300
                                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-14 00:11 +0000
                                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-13 17:16 -0700
                                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-14 10:27 +0000
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Cóilín Nioclásín Glostéir <thanks-to@Taf.com> - 2026-08-13 20:35 +0000
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-14 08:04 -0300
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-13 23:58 +0000
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-14 09:27 +0100
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 23:35 -0400
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Cóilín Nioclásín Glostéir <thanks-to@Taf.com> - 2026-08-11 18:35 +0000
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-11 21:14 +0100
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Cóilín Nioclásín Glostéir <thanks-to@Taf.com> - 2026-08-11 21:01 +0000
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-12 01:20 +0000
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Cóilín Nioclásín Glostéir <thanks-to@Taf.com> - 2026-08-12 09:12 +0000
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-18 21:23 -0400
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-18 21:26 -0400
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-12 01:19 +0000
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-12 16:25 +0000
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-11 23:30 -0400
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Cóilín Nioclásín Glostéir <thanks-to@Taf.com> - 2026-08-12 16:52 +0000
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-19 17:53 -0400
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-11 20:39 -0700
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-12 23:23 +0100
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-10 15:05 +0000
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-08 22:00 +0800
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-08-08 14:14 +0000
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-09 20:34 +0000
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-08 14:45 +0000
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-09 02:18 +0800
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-09 18:47 -0400
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-08-11 11:38 -0400
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 18:59 -0400
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-08-15 21:12 -0400
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-14 08:20 -0300
                                                              Names for GenAI (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-14 13:30 +0100
                                                                Re: Names for GenAI ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-08-14 12:49 +0000
                                                                Re: Names for GenAI Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-16 13:56 -0300
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-29 16:16 -0400
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-29 13:46 -0700
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-06-30 17:15 -0400
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-03 04:07 +0000
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 12:26 +0000
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-07-11 16:06 -0400
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-11 15:03 -0700
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-13 12:12 +0000
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-07-13 15:55 -0400
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-13 20:37 +0000
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-07-29 16:18 -0400
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-29 22:06 +0000
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-07-29 16:15 -0400
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-07-30 21:05 -0400
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-31 08:01 +0000
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-08-04 22:08 -0400
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-05 11:29 +0000
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Madhu <enometh@meer.net> - 2026-08-05 23:46 +0530
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 19:41 -0400
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-08-10 14:44 +0200
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 12:31 +0000
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-07-29 16:21 -0400
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-07-31 07:17 +0800
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-07-31 12:21 -0300
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-01 01:48 +0800
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-05 13:13 -0300
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 21:48 +0000
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-08-06 09:05 +0200
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 11:33 -0700
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-06 15:49 -0300
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-08-06 20:23 -0400
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-08-07 09:36 +0000
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-07 11:58 +0000
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-08-08 19:02 +0000
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-09 18:59 -0400
                                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-12 15:23 +0000
                                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-18 21:59 -0400
                                                                      Reader macros (was: Resources to learn common lisp?) Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-08-09 11:51 -0400
                                                                        Re: Reader macros Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-10 00:48 -0700
                                                              Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-09 05:33 +0800
                                                                Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-10 01:11 -0700
                                                                  Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-08-10 14:57 +0000
                                                                  Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 13:10 -0700
                                                                Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-10 17:41 -0300
                                                                  Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-10 23:53 +0000
                                                                    Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-08-11 14:29 +0000
                                                                    kqueues and port_create() (was: Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-12 07:51 +0800
                                                                      Re: kqueues and port_create() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-11 20:59 -0700
                                                                        Re: kqueues and port_create() Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-12 13:07 +0800
                                                                          Re: kqueues and port_create() Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-08-12 03:23 -0400
                                                                            Re: kqueues and port_create() Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-12 07:50 +0000
                                                                              Re: kqueues and port_create() Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-13 11:33 +0800
                                                                            Re: kqueues and port_create() Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-12 02:22 -0700
                                                                              Re: kqueues and port_create() Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-08-12 20:55 -0400
                                                                            Re: kqueues and port_create() Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-13 11:37 +0800
                                                                        Re: kqueues and port_create() "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-12 12:59 -0700
                                                                    Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-14 12:26 +0100
                                                                  D.N.S. in Common Lisp (was: Re: Manipulating C code at the AST level, in C) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-12 07:59 +0800
                                                                    Re: D.N.S. in Common Lisp Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-12 09:01 -0300
                                                                      Making production games in Common Lisp (was: Re: D.N.S. in Common Lisp) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-13 11:20 +0800
                                                                        Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-12 20:46 -0700
                                                                          Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-13 14:28 +0800
                                                                          Re: Making production games in Common Lisp bixbox <noreply@example.invalid> - 2026-08-13 11:46 +0200
                                                                        Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-13 12:19 -0300
                                                                          Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-14 01:24 +0800
                                                                            Re: Making production games in Common Lisp ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-08-13 17:39 +0000
                                                                            Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-13 20:58 -0300
                                                                              Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-14 13:42 +0800
                                                                                Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-14 12:46 +0100
                                                                                Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-16 15:29 -0300
                                                                            Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-13 17:31 -0700
                                                                              Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-14 14:04 +0800
                                                                                Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-14 01:52 -0700
                                                                            Re: Making production games in Common Lisp tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-14 10:27 +0000
                                                                              Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-15 01:19 +0800
                                                                        Re: Making production games in Common Lisp (was: Re: D.N.S. in Common Lisp) tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-13 16:14 +0000
                                                                          Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-14 01:31 +0800
                                                                            Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-14 12:52 +0100
                                                                              Re: Making production games in Common Lisp tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-14 12:30 +0000
                                                                              Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-15 01:33 +0800
                                                                        Re: Making production games in Common Lisp (was: Re: D.N.S. in Common Lisp) George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-08-15 19:44 -0400
                                                                          Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-16 15:06 -0300
                                                                          Re: Making production games in Common Lisp Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-22 02:28 +0800
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-06 18:05 -0700
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-09 05:26 +0800
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-08-08 18:37 -0400
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-09 08:52 +0000
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-09 11:50 +0100
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-09 23:01 +0800
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-09 19:09 -0400
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-12 15:23 +0000
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-12 15:23 +0000
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-09 20:36 +0000
                                                                    What do you need from S.B.C.L? (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-10 05:32 +0800
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-09 19:02 -0400
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-08-10 00:56 +0100
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-12 15:30 +0000
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-08-12 16:31 +0000
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-12 17:07 +0000
                                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-08-12 17:20 +0000
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-14 14:28 +0800
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-10 00:54 -0700
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-08-11 20:20 +0000
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-11 20:51 -0700
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-18 21:35 -0400
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-18 21:34 -0700
                                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-08-21 02:12 -0400
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-12 15:52 +0000
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-14 03:27 -0700
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-14 12:16 +0000
                                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-14 12:03 -0700
                                                                      Macros (was Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-14 12:51 +0000
                                                                        Re: Macros (was Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-14 12:08 -0700
                                                                          Re: Macros Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-08-15 10:01 +0100
                                                                          Re: Macros (was Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2026-08-15 12:58 +0000
                                                                            Re: Macros (was Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-16 15:27 -0300
                                                                        Re: Macros (was Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-16 15:26 -0300
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-12 13:18 +0800
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? bixbox <noreply@example.invalid> - 2026-08-12 10:16 +0200
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-08-10 14:21 +0200
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Kaz Kylheku <046-301-5902@kylheku.com> - 2026-08-11 22:14 +0000
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-14 14:37 +0800
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-08-08 19:08 -0400
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-09 19:12 -0400
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-08-11 11:45 -0400
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-13 19:25 -0400
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-10 10:48 -0300
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-10 23:55 +0000
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 21:25 -0400
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-08-11 12:20 -0400
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-08-12 13:06 -0400
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-12 17:16 +0000
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-13 12:46 -0300
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-31 22:46 +0000
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-01 07:38 +0800
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-04 22:26 -0400
                                                              Making a C compiler in Rust (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-21 13:06 +0800
                                                                Re: Making a C compiler in Rust (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-08-21 11:34 +0100
                                                                  Re: Making a C compiler in Rust (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2026-08-21 14:13 +0300
                                                                    Re: Making a C compiler in Rust Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-22 02:23 +0800
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-01 09:08 +0000
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2026-08-01 07:49 -0400
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-01 23:37 +0000
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-01 16:54 -0700
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-02 07:39 +0000
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-04 22:39 -0400
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-07-31 23:59 -0400
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-01 16:12 +0800
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-04 22:50 -0400
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-05 19:02 +0800
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 19:36 -0400
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-09 02:11 +0800
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-09 18:49 -0400
                                                                      Short wave radio, French (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-19 13:03 +0800
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 13:08 -0700
                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-28 22:48 -0400
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-28 20:34 -0700
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-29 06:00 +0000
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-29 00:52 -0700
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-29 07:55 +0000
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-29 13:35 -0700
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-29 22:25 +0000
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-29 17:37 -0700
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-04 03:53 +0000
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-07-29 16:26 -0400
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-29 23:50 +0000
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-07-31 23:52 -0400
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-01 05:24 +0000
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-04 22:47 -0400
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 02:54 +0000
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-04 23:11 -0400
                                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-05 07:31 +0000
                                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-06 19:25 -0400
                                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-10 01:46 +0000
                                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-10 21:10 -0400
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-05 18:26 +0800
                                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-05 13:05 -0700
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-04 23:34 +0000
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-05 00:07 +0000
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-05 01:49 +0000
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-07-06 05:23 -0400
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 09:26 +0000
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-07-09 12:04 +0000
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-07-09 14:42 +0000
                                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 19:33 +0000
                                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-07-09 21:29 +0000
                                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-10 07:37 +0000
                                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-07-10 10:17 +0000
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-10 03:35 -0700
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-07-29 17:32 -0400
                                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-29 23:48 +0000
                                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2026-07-30 21:37 -0400
                                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-04 00:49 +0000
                                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-04 09:56 +0800
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-29 08:31 +0000
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-29 08:31 +0000
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-29 08:08 +0000
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-29 08:57 +0000
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-29 09:47 +0000
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-29 10:03 +0000
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-29 10:44 +0000
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-29 11:05 +0000
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-02 00:42 +0000
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-29 11:09 +0000
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-02 00:45 +0000
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-29 20:50 -0400
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-02 00:43 +0000
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-02 00:41 +0000
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-07-29 15:55 -0400
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-29 23:46 +0000
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-29 20:47 -0400
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-02 00:39 +0000
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-30 13:47 -0700
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-07-01 10:26 -0400
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-02 00:38 +0000
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-01 18:47 -0700
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-01 18:52 -0700
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-07-02 20:33 -0400
                                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-03 00:50 +0000
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-03 00:42 +0000
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 08:06 +0000
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 11:41 +0000
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-07-03 19:37 -0400
                                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-03 18:29 -0700
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-07-04 09:40 -0400
                                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Alan Bawden <alan@csail.mit.edu> - 2026-07-08 19:07 -0400
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-27 13:48 -0700
                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-28 23:34 +0000
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-27 02:58 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-15 09:51 -0400
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-16 00:23 +0000
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-16 03:14 -0700
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-27 03:02 +0000
                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-26 21:47 -0700
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-27 23:18 +0000
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-28 16:36 -0700
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-03 04:06 +0000
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-02 22:20 -0700
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-04 03:58 +0000
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-03 07:36 +0100
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-16 15:29 -0700
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-27 23:29 +0000
                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-28 16:41 -0700
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-29 09:17 +0000
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-29 18:41 +0000
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-04 04:06 +0000
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-04 07:46 +0100
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-07-29 16:31 -0400
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-29 23:52 +0000
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-16 10:23 -0400
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-16 21:34 -0700
                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-17 15:02 -0400
                                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-18 04:14 +0000
                                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-18 12:44 -0400
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-29 10:09 +0000
                                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-29 10:55 +0000
                                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 08:06 +0000
                                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-07-09 13:26 +0000
                                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-09 23:04 +0000
                                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-30 02:45 +0000
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-14 13:14 -0700
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-18 02:30 +0000
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 11:46 +0000
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-18 15:34 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-19 07:01 +0000
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-19 11:41 +0000
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-28 23:38 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-28 23:42 +0000
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-29 13:58 -0700
                                    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-29 22:19 +0000
                      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-28 22:37 -0400
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-28 20:42 -0700
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-29 20:08 -0400
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-29 08:27 +0100
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-29 00:42 -0700
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-06-29 14:35 +0100
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-06-29 23:27 -0400
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2026-07-01 16:21 -0400
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-29 20:21 -0400
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-07-01 08:57 +0100
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Madhu <enometh@meer.net> - 2026-07-01 14:29 +0530
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-07-01 12:56 -0700
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-29 20:17 -0400
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-30 21:32 +0000
                        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-06-29 07:55 +0000
                          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-07-05 22:14 +0100
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-05 23:55 +0000
                              Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2026-07-06 08:04 +0100
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-07-06 08:00 +0000
                                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Niocláisín Cóilín Glostéir <thanks-to@Taf.com> - 2026-08-04 18:35 +0000
                                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-05 05:46 +0800
                            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-07-09 09:57 +0000
                Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-06-13 13:22 -0700
                  Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-14 01:55 +0000
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tpeplt <tpeplt@gmail.com> - 2026-02-20 17:44 -0500
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Mario Rosell <mario@mariorosell.es> - 2026-02-21 12:30 +0100
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-20 23:50 +0000
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-02-21 00:24 +0000
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-02-21 11:36 +0100
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Mario Rosell <mario@mariorosell.es> - 2026-02-21 12:44 +0100
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-03-31 17:47 -0400
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-03-31 23:41 +0000
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tpeplt <tpeplt@gmail.com> - 2026-04-01 13:23 -0400
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-16 21:59 -0400
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Peri Didaskalou <pfd@torfree.net> - 2026-05-01 10:52 -0400
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Peri Didaskalou <pfd@torfree.net> - 2026-05-01 10:57 -0400
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Peri Didaskalou <pfd@torfree.net> - 2026-05-01 11:06 -0400
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 14:56 -0400
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? "Robert B. Carleton" <rbc@rbcarleton.net> - 2026-06-01 23:02 +0000
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 21:32 -0400
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-03 03:16 +0000
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? kotorifan <mindyourownbiz@noemail.fuck> - 2026-08-02 16:42 +0000
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-02 22:53 +0000
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anthk GM <anthk@disroot.org> - 2026-08-13 13:40 +0000
          Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-08-13 23:46 +0000
            Re: Resources to learn common lisp? tfb <tfb@work.it.out> - 2026-08-14 10:25 +0000
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2026-08-02 16:56 -0700
      Common Lisp Books (was: Re: Resources to learn common lisp?) Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-03 17:56 +0800
    Re: Resources to learn common lisp? bixbox <noreply@example.invalid> - 2026-08-13 12:35 +0200
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> - 2026-08-14 01:36 +0800
      Re: Resources to learn common lisp? steve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com> - 2026-08-19 17:57 -0400
        Re: Resources to learn common lisp? Anton Antimo <anton@safunu.org> - 2026-08-20 10:16 -0300

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#61134

FromNuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-07-03 07:36 +0100
Message-ID<1127l9q$36m4d$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#61126
On 2026-07-03, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Jun 2026 16:36:03 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>> Admit that the Lisp garbage collector cannot scale to dealing with
>>> large amounts of data?
>>
>> It's not a scaling issue in the slightest.
>
> Large amounts of data => can’t cope.
>
> What would you call it, then?

"Ambiguity" for "plausible deniability", apparently, because what you
just wrote doesn't really have enough detail to configure a problem at
all, it can just describe issues with implementation of computer
programs in real-life computer and computing machinery - the difference
between "infinite tape" and a human computer's desk, paper and
pens/pencils, or between "infinite tape" and a computer's resources.

If you are going to be pointing fingers at others for "ambiguity" of
this sort, it'd perhaps be at least considerate that you didn't do the
same thing in your own posts in the same 24 hour period...

(What is "*the* Lisp garbage collector"? Is that actually defined for
all lisps? Encompassing Emacs Lisp and RnRS too?)

-- 
Nuno Silva

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#60926

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2026-06-16 15:29 -0700
Message-ID<871pe65dbt.fsf@nightsong.com>
In reply to#60913
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
> Perl was probably the pioneer here. Implementations use garbage
> collection simply because it’s so much easier to do, nothing more.

Have you actually implemented both?  I feel like a bunch of stuff you're
saying come from inexperience.  

In my case I've implemented an Awk with reference counting and later a
Lisp with GC.  I used RC in the Awk because at that time, I didn't know
how to write a GC.  The GC in the Lisp that I wrote was quite simple but
I still wouldn't say that it was easier than RC.  Of course "serious"
GC's are very intricate and not remotely comparable to the naive
reference counting in something like Python.  It's ridiculous to say
it's easier.

Here's Simon Marlow et al's 2008 paper on the GHC garbage collector:

https://simonmar.github.io/bib/papers/parallel-gc.pdf

I have a vague recollection that the GHC GC was later redone to be even
more sophisticated.  And it's nowhere near as fancy as the GC's used in
Java which have gotten a lot more development energy.

If of any interest, the current "big" Python implementation is CPython
and it uses reference counting.  MicroPython, a smaller Python version
for microcontrollers, uses GC.  Lua, considered a smaller-footprint and
more embeddable language than Python, also uses GC.  MicroPython ran on
MCU's with as little as 16KB of ram (BBC Micro:bit v1) though that was
very cramped.  It's reasonably usable with 32KB.  I don't think CPython
could run at all on those machines.

I'd be interested to know why CPython uses RC.  If I ever meet Guido
I'll try to remember to ask him.  I do have the impression that
immediate reclamation for stuff like file descriptors was claimed as a
big advantage, before Python itself got RAII in the "with" statement.

Slightly related, do you even use Lisp?  I think your picture of how
Lisp programs use memory is also unrealistic.  

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#61026

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-06-27 23:29 +0000
Message-ID<111pmdm$38udv$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#60926
On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 15:29:26 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:

> Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>
>> Perl was probably the pioneer here. Implementations use garbage
>> collection simply because it’s so much easier to do, nothing more.
>
> Have you actually implemented both?  I feel like a bunch of stuff you're
> saying come from inexperience.

I don’t claim to be smart enough to implement such things. My
experience comes from using implementations created by people much
smarter than I am.

> If of any interest, the current "big" Python implementation is
> CPython and it uses reference counting.

Reference counting + GC.

> MicroPython, a smaller Python version for microcontrollers, uses GC.
> Lua, considered a smaller-footprint and more embeddable language
> than Python, also uses GC.

Lua was designed specifically for embedding into other apps. Python
(specifically CPython) was considered less suitable because it was a
larger and more complex language.

But guess what: I think Python has become more popular for embedded
use than Lua.

> MicroPython ran on MCU's with as little as 16KB of ram (BBC
> Micro:bit v1) though that was very cramped. It's reasonably usable
> with 32KB. I don't think CPython could run at all on those machines.

That may be true, but I doubt it has much to do with memory management.

Out of curiosity, I looked it up
<https://docs.micropython.org/en/latest/develop/memorymgt.html>. Note
how they need to offer a separate “tracked allocation” API for use
from C code? Somehow their “garbage collection” scheme seems to have
some interesting limitations, no doubt for speed and efficiency.

By contrast CPython simply exposes the regular object-management API
for use by extension modules. Or the external code can use regular
malloc(3)/free(3) for its own purposes (separate from interfacing with
Python), and that will work, too.

> I'd be interested to know why CPython uses RC.

Because of the reasons we’ve been discussing. You still refuse to
accept that there might be a point to that?

> Slightly related, do you even use Lisp?

Mainly for customizing Emacs.

> I think your picture of how Lisp programs use memory is also
> unrealistic.

Let’s just say, “Lisp” and “high performance” were never terms that
commonly went together. Whereas nowadays “Python” and “high
performance” are indeed commonly uttered in the same sentence ...

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#61036

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2026-06-28 16:41 -0700
Message-ID<87o6gu1bdy.fsf@nightsong.com>
In reply to#61026
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
> I don’t claim to be smart enough to implement such things. My
> experience comes from using implementations created by people much
> smarter than I am.

I think you're also pretty unfamiliar with how the implementations work.

> But guess what: I think Python has become more popular for embedded
> use than Lua.

Lua is a somewhat weird language and people may prefer Python due to
familiarity.  CPython is a pain to embed though.

> <https://docs.micropython.org/en/latest/develop/memorymgt.html>. Note
> how they need to offer a separate “tracked allocation” API for use
> from C code?

The usual reason for stuff like that is so the C code doesn't have to
interact with the GC too much.

> Somehow their “garbage collection” scheme seems to have
> some interesting limitations, no doubt for speed and efficiency.

Perhaps you could post some benchmarks instead of speculating.

>> I'd be interested to know why CPython uses RC.
> Because of the reasons we’ve been discussing. You still refuse to
> accept that there might be a point to that?

I don't see any clear advantages.  One early motivation was prompt
finalization when stuff goes out of scope, but later the "with"
statement was added, giving something like RAII.

> Let’s just say, “Lisp” and “high performance” were never terms that
> commonly went together. Whereas nowadays “Python” and “high
> performance” are indeed commonly uttered in the same sentence ...

Python and high performance amount to using Python as a scripting
wrapper around C libraries, or even CUDA libraries.  

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#61063

Fromtfb <tfb@work.it.out>
Date2026-06-29 09:17 +0000
Message-ID<111td7k$81tf$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#61036
Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> 
> 
> I don't see any clear advantages.  One early motivation was prompt
> finalization when stuff goes out of scope, but later the "with"
> statement was added, giving something like RAII.

Someone would have to ask Guido, but I'd assume at least three reasons:

- prompt finalisation

- naive reference-counting is easy to implement in an interpreter(1)

- since Python was always going to be a wrapper around functionality
provided by a low-level language which had strong opinions about object
addresses, not moving objects in memory matters.  That rules out any
copying GC(2)

(1) If you want to get clever, like Interlisp-D did and have essentially a
single bit of reference count in objects, with objects whose counts were
greater than 1 spilling to a table elsewhere it gets a lot more fiddly.  I
don't know if Python does that.

(2) Systems which do have copying GCs which want to talk to C have an
entertaining time.  I don't know what SBCL does, but LW lets you allocate
(some) things so the GC won't move them, or won't move them in a dynamic
extent.


> Python and high performance amount to using Python as a scripting
> wrapper around C libraries, or even CUDA libraries.  
> 

Exactly.  The bottleneck for 'fast Python programs' is almost always the
bits of them actually written in Python.

-- 
tfeb.org/computer/

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#61074

Fromantispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch)
Date2026-06-29 18:41 +0000
Message-ID<111ue9f$3jf1p$1@paganini.bofh.team>
In reply to#61063
tfb <tfb@work.it.out> wrote:
> 
> (2) Systems which do have copying GCs which want to talk to C have an
> entertaining time.  I don't know what SBCL does, but LW lets you allocate
> (some) things so the GC won't move them, or won't move them in a dynamic
> extent.

sbcl has 'sb-sys:with-pinned-objects' which makes sure that GC will
not move relevant objects.

-- 
                              Waldek Hebisch

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#61148

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-07-04 04:06 +0000
Message-ID<112a0sv$3scqc$5@dont-email.me>
In reply to#61036
On Sun, 28 Jun 2026 16:41:13 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:

> Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>
>> But guess what: I think Python has become more popular for embedded
>> use than Lua.
>
> Lua is a somewhat weird language and people may prefer Python due to
> familiarity.

That wasn’t so true when Lua first came out. Somehow Python managed to
overtake it.

> CPython is a pain to embed though.

I will say, I think Lua is more popular in proprietary apps (I think
Adobe uses it, also some game engines). CPython is particularly
well-supported among open-source content-creation apps.

My favourite example is Blender <https://docs.blender.org/api/5.1/>.
Just look at the depth of that -- the entire contents of the loaded
Blender document are exposed as Python objects.

> One early motivation was prompt finalization when stuff goes out of
> scope, but later the "with" statement was added, giving something
> like RAII.

The “with” statement is more about restoration of state -- see also
“try/finally”.

> I don't see any clear advantages.

Worth comparing garbage-collected Python implementations. For example,
someone else said that Java had a particularly good GC. Jython is, or
was, a Python implementation on top of the JVM. That should have shown
some clear performance advantages, shouldn’t it? Yet it was never
popular.

Microsoft also had a go, with IronPython built on top of its DotNet
runtime. Again, after several years of trying to promote it, it could
never work up enough interest, so eventually the project was
abandoned.

If a company with the marketing clout of Microsoft cannot make a
success of a garbage-collected alternative to CPython, then the idea
must really be bad ...

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#61153

FromNuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-07-04 07:46 +0100
Message-ID<112aa94$3uhou$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#61148
On 2026-07-04, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Jun 2026 16:41:13 -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>> But guess what: I think Python has become more popular for embedded
>>> use than Lua.
>>
>> Lua is a somewhat weird language and people may prefer Python due to
>> familiarity.
>
> That wasn’t so true when Lua first came out. Somehow Python managed to
> overtake it.
>
>> CPython is a pain to embed though.
>
> I will say, I think Lua is more popular in proprietary apps (I think
> Adobe uses it, also some game engines). CPython is particularly
> well-supported among open-source content-creation apps.
>
> My favourite example is Blender <https://docs.blender.org/api/5.1/>.
> Just look at the depth of that -- the entire contents of the loaded
> Blender document are exposed as Python objects.
>
>> One early motivation was prompt finalization when stuff goes out of
>> scope, but later the "with" statement was added, giving something
>> like RAII.
>
> The “with” statement is more about restoration of state -- see also
> “try/finally”.
>
>> I don't see any clear advantages.
>
> Worth comparing garbage-collected Python implementations. For example,
> someone else said that Java had a particularly good GC. Jython is, or
> was, a Python implementation on top of the JVM. That should have shown
> some clear performance advantages, shouldn’t it? Yet it was never
> popular.
>
> Microsoft also had a go, with IronPython built on top of its DotNet
> runtime. Again, after several years of trying to promote it, it could
> never work up enough interest, so eventually the project was
> abandoned.
>
> If a company with the marketing clout of Microsoft cannot make a
> success of a garbage-collected alternative to CPython, then the idea
> must really be bad ...

Or maybe those who would possibly use it - not already using other MS
technologies - prefer to stick with CPython &c instead of subjecting
themselves to a less portable choice with possible vendor lock-in,
restrictions on usage, and coming from MICROS~1, which does say
something about stability and compliance.

Similarly, I don't think the JVM for desktop java has ever been lauded
for being very performant and lean on resource usage.

-- 
Nuno Silva

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#61240

Fromsteve g <Sgonedes1977@gmail.com>
Date2026-07-29 16:31 -0400
Message-ID<878q6ttu5h.fsf@gmail.com>
In reply to#61153
Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Similarly, I don't think the JVM for desktop java has ever been lauded
> for being very performant and lean on resource usage.


this is like DPS (display Postscript) it worked wonderfully on X11 as
openwindows. I think the scrollbar was excellent. postscript is a
complicated language in my mind, especially when compared to C.

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#61246

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-07-29 23:52 +0000
Message-ID<114e3od$18m2n$11@dont-email.me>
In reply to#61240
On Wed, 29 Jul 2026 16:31:22 -0400, steve g wrote:

> postscript is a complicated language in my mind, especially when
> compared to C.

PostScript is a language that can make Lisp look complicated. It
offers homoiconicity, like Lisp does, but with less syntax: so much
less that it doesn’t even need macros or “special forms”, or much of a
compile-time mechanism at all.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#60927

FromStefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Date2026-06-16 10:23 -0400
Message-ID<jwv7bny1t3z.fsf-monnier+comp.lang.lisp@gnu.org>
In reply to#60913
Lawrence D’Oliveiro [2026-06-16 00:23:02] wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2026 09:51:57 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> I guess the most obvious argument is just the very small number of
>> language implementations that use reference counting and are "high
>> performance" (which presumably implies that the implementors have
>> spent some effort to try and use an efficient memory management
>> technique).
> Perl was probably the pioneer here. Implementations use garbage
> collection simply because it’s so much easier to do, nothing more.

I'm sorry, but I don't count things like Perl or CPython (or ELisp, for
that matter) as high-performance language implementations.

As tools, they can be very efficient, but it's not because they run Perl
or Python code efficiently: it's because they don't spend much time
running actual Perl and Python code (instead they spend most of their
time running code written in other languages, like C).

> As I mentioned elsewhere Java gets “high performance” by minimizing
> heap allocation, at the cost of writing more circumlocutory code.

No, Java gets high performance because lots of money was poured into the
implementation of JVM's compilers to generate efficient machine code.
In turn, this makes the time spent managing memory more visible so it
increases pressure on the language implementors to implement efficient
memory management, and it also increases pressure on programmers to be
mindful of the amount of allocation they perform when they care
about speed.

> That gave them a lot of productivity boosts.  But the core part of the
> in-memory database was implemented in C++, precisely where the garbage
> collector could not get its sticky fingers on it.

This seems to argue that automatic memory management can be expensive.
I never claimed otherwise.  I'm just claiming that when a language
implementation has to implement automatic memory management, the choice
of reference counting will usually lead to slower execution than what
you'd get with a tracing GC.


=== Stefan

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#60941

FromPaul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Date2026-06-16 21:34 -0700
Message-ID<87wlvx4wf8.fsf@nightsong.com>
In reply to#60927
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> This seems to argue that automatic memory management can be expensive.
> I never claimed otherwise.

A decade or two ago (idk about now), there was some wisdom claiming that
GC increased your program's memory footprint by quite a lot compared
with manual memory management.  The speed penalty was nowhere near as
large.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#60954

FromStefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Date2026-06-17 15:02 -0400
Message-ID<jwv33yl2i4r.fsf-monnier+comp.lang.lisp@gnu.org>
In reply to#60941
>> This seems to argue that automatic memory management can be expensive.
>> I never claimed otherwise.
> A decade or two ago (idk about now), there was some wisdom claiming that
> GC increased your program's memory footprint by quite a lot compared
> with manual memory management.  The speed penalty was nowhere near as
> large.

For many years this question was largely irrelevant because the rest of
the impact of automatic memory management (AMM) trumped such questions.

I'm thinking here about things like how AMM avoids security issues,
speeds up development, and makes it much easier to design generic
data-structure libraries.

There are now alternatives (mostly Rust but also languages like C++), so
it's slowly changing, but AMM remains the obvious default choice.


=== Stefan

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#60960

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-06-18 04:14 +0000
Message-ID<110vrbk$2bgdb$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#60927
On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 10:23:23 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:

> I'm sorry, but I don't count things like Perl or CPython (or ELisp,
> for that matter) as high-performance language implementations.

Too bad, because they are. Perl got a reputation for being that
seeming oxymoron: a “fast, interpreted” language.

And Python -- heavily used in many applications requiring high
performance in doing lots of complex computations on large datasets.
Java doesn’t get a look in here.

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#60974

FromStefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Date2026-06-18 12:44 -0400
Message-ID<jwvldcboleb.fsf-monnier+comp.lang.lisp@gnu.org>
In reply to#60960
Lawrence D’Oliveiro [2026-06-18 04:14:44] wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jun 2026 10:23:23 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> I'm sorry, but I don't count things like Perl or CPython (or ELisp,
>> for that matter) as high-performance language implementations.
> Too bad, because they are. Perl got a reputation for being that
> seeming oxymoron: a “fast, interpreted” language.
> And Python -- heavily used in many applications requiring high
> performance in doing lots of complex computations on large datasets.
> Java doesn’t get a look in here.

Looks like you missed this part of my message:

    As tools, they can be very efficient, but it's not because they run
    Perl or Python code efficiently: it's because they don't spend much
    time running actual Perl and Python code (instead they spend most of
    their time running code written in other languages, like C).


=== Stefan

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#61068

Fromtfb <tfb@work.it.out>
Date2026-06-29 10:09 +0000
Message-ID<111tg84$8thv$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#60974
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
> 
>     As tools, they can be very efficient, but it's not because they run
>     Perl or Python code efficiently: it's because they don't spend much
>     time running actual Perl and Python code (instead they spend most of
>     their time running code written in other languages, like C).
> 

A long time ago in a different world, I worked for a company which had a
big program written in Java.  We were going to redo it in Python using
NumPy, because that would be faster.  I now forget the awful details.  The
NumPy bit was quick, I think, but we made the mistake of assuming we could
use native Python for, really, anything at all, and that ended up as
essentially an Amdahl bottleneck, whereas the Java program didn't have
that, because even then Java compilers were OK and its memory management
(ehem, GC) was not made out of cardboard like Python's was.

The answer we came to was that the only place you could use Python was as a
scripting language to put together blobs of code written in languages with
good performance.  We gave up & I left a while later.

I've seen the same thing in more recent big-data (climate model output)
programs which are all in Python: you want to make really sure Python code
is nowhere near anything which can plausibly influence performance.

-- 
tfeb.org/computer/

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#61070

Fromram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Date2026-06-29 10:55 +0000
Message-ID<efficiency-20260629115408@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
In reply to#61068
tfb <tfb@work.it.out> wrote or quoted:
>The answer we came to was that the only place you could use Python was as a
>scripting language to put together blobs of code written in languages with
>good performance.  We gave up & I left a while later.

  The understanding that native Python code is slow while
  C-extensioned code runs at C-speed (known as the "glue
  language" paradigm) has been a foundational truth about
  Python throughout its history, and I'm a bit surprised that
  where you once worked they only found this out the hard way.

  Still, recent improvements made native Python code a bit
  faster in CPython 3.15.

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#61191

Fromtfb <tfb@work.it.out>
Date2026-07-09 08:06 +0000
Message-ID<112nkqf$8192$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#61070
Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

>   The understanding that native Python code is slow while
>   C-extensioned code runs at C-speed (known as the "glue
>   language" paradigm) has been a foundational truth about
>   Python throughout its history, and I'm a bit surprised that
>   where you once worked they only found this out the hard way.
> 

We knew.  We'd just made (I think: it's a long time ago) three mistakes:
the Java compiler was much better than we assumed, the Java version version
of the search code was quicker than we assumed, and the Python bottleneck
ate more of the performance than we assumed.

-- 
tfeb.org/computer/

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#61205

Fromram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
Date2026-07-09 13:26 +0000
Message-ID<performance-20260709142429@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
In reply to#61191
tfb <tfb@work.it.out> wrote or quoted:
>We knew.  We'd just made (I think: it's a long time ago) three mistakes:
>the Java compiler was much better than we assumed, the Java version version
>of the search code was quicker than we assumed, and the Python bottleneck
>ate more of the performance than we assumed.

  When Java dropped back in '96, Python was actually faster 
  a lot of the time. But that vibe only lasted for like two or
  three years. Back then, I was out here teaching Java courses
  and totally ghosting Python.

  Fast forward to the 2010s when I finally started messing with
  Python. By then, the narrative was already set in stone: Python
  is cute, but it's slow. So I had zero clue about that whole
  1996 situation until I literally just looked it up right now.

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#61213

FromLawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>
Date2026-07-09 23:04 +0000
Message-ID<112p9ds$p5ou$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#61205
On 9 Jul 2026 13:26:31 GMT, Stefan Ram wrote:

> When Java dropped back in '96, Python was actually faster a lot of
> the time. But that vibe only lasted for like two or three years.
> Back then, I was out here teaching Java courses and totally ghosting
> Python.

I remember, back during peak Java hype, Corel announced that they were
going to rewrite their entire office suite in Java.

That didn’t last long. They soon discovered how terrible the
performance was, and gave up.

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