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jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row?

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  jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? JRough <janis.rough@gmail.com> - 2012-04-20 11:39 -0700
    Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2012-04-21 01:23 +0000
      Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2012-04-21 02:18 +0000
        Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Hans-Georg Michna <hans-georgNoEmailPlease@michna.com> - 2012-04-21 07:31 +0200
          Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? "Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivoort@interxnl.net> - 2012-04-21 06:09 +0000
            Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? JRough <janis.rough@gmail.com> - 2012-04-22 09:52 -0700
              Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? "Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivoort@interxnl.net> - 2012-04-23 10:32 +0000
            Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? JRough <janis.rough@gmail.com> - 2012-04-22 12:53 -0700
            Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? JRough <janis.rough@gmail.com> - 2012-04-22 13:03 -0700
            Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? JRough <janis.rough@gmail.com> - 2012-05-04 13:16 -0700
        Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? JRough <janis.rough@gmail.com> - 2012-04-22 09:50 -0700
          Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2012-04-23 02:10 +0000
          Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? John G Harris <john@nospam.demon.co.uk> - 2012-04-23 15:10 +0100
            Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2012-04-25 21:39 -0400
              Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2012-04-26 04:35 +0200
                Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-26 15:49 +1000
                  ECMAScript Support Matrix (was: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row?) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2012-04-26 10:01 +0200
                    Re: ECMAScript Support Matrix Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-26 18:41 +1000
                      Re: ECMAScript Support Matrix Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2012-04-26 11:06 +0200
                        Re: ECMAScript Support Matrix Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-26 20:41 +1000
              Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-26 12:38 +1000
                Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjdehf@hotmail.com.invalid> - 2012-04-26 09:01 +0300
                  Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-26 16:16 +1000
                    Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2012-04-26 06:52 -0400
                      Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? John G Harris <john@nospam.demon.co.uk> - 2012-04-26 16:30 +0100
                Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2012-04-26 06:30 -0400
                  Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-26 20:44 +1000
                    Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2012-04-26 08:34 -0400
                      Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? John G Harris <john@nospam.demon.co.uk> - 2012-04-26 16:49 +0100
                      Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2012-04-26 18:08 +0200
                        Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Scott Sauyet <scott.sauyet@gmail.com> - 2012-04-27 13:29 -0700
                          Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2012-04-28 00:15 +0200
                        Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Dr J R Stockton <reply1217@merlyn.demon.co.uk.not.invalid> - 2012-04-27 21:41 +0100
                      Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-27 07:55 +1000
                      Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Matt McDonald <matt@fortybelow.ca> - 2012-04-26 22:23 -0600
                        Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2012-04-27 11:40 +0200
                        Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-27 20:05 +1000
                          Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? "S.T." <anon@anon.com> - 2012-04-27 14:32 -0700
                            Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> - 2012-04-28 16:03 +1000
                              Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? David Mark <dmark.cinsoft@gmail.com> - 2012-07-05 19:52 -0700
                                Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? David Mark <dmark.cinsoft@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 00:53 -0700
                                Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? "S.T." <anon@anon.com> - 2012-07-10 13:53 -0700
                                  Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Matt McDonald <matt@fortybelow.ca> - 2012-07-10 18:32 -0600
                                    Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? "S.T." <anon@anon.com> - 2012-07-11 10:51 -0700
                            Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2012-04-28 17:41 +0200
                              Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? "S.T." <anon@anon.com> - 2012-04-28 13:15 -0700
                                Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> - 2012-04-28 22:45 +0200
      Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2012-04-21 14:28 +0000
        Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? JRough <janis.rough@gmail.com> - 2012-04-29 15:02 -0700
      Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? JRough <janis.rough@gmail.com> - 2012-04-22 12:34 -0700
    Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Matt McDonald <matt@fortybelow.ca> - 2012-04-21 11:02 -0600
      Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2012-04-21 17:12 +0000
        Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Matt McDonald <matt@fortybelow.ca> - 2012-04-21 11:37 -0600
          Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2012-04-21 20:59 +0200
      Re: jquery ,get the id of the input in order to delete input row? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2012-04-21 20:46 +0200

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#13592

On 26/04/2012 11:39 AM, Barry Margolin wrote:
> In article
> <ToCpCjFuLWlPFwus@J.A830F0FF37FB96852AD08924D9443D28E23ED5CD>,
>   John G Harris<john@nospam.demon.co.uk>  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 at 09:50:11, in comp.lang.javascript, JRough wrote:
>>> On Apr 20, 7:18�pm, Denis McMahon<denismfmcma...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>    <snip>
>>>> I have no idea whatsoever how to do this in jquery, this isn't a jquery
>>>> forum, I think most people here avoid jquery like the plague.
>>>>
>>>> You probably need to find a jquery forum to ask in.
>>>>
>>>> Rgds
>>>>
>>>> Denis McMahon
>>>
>>> Hello Denis, I appreciate your feedback.  Could you tell me why they
>>> avoid it?
>>> I thought it was great at solving cross browser issues.  I personally
>>> like the controls.
>>> For example, the calendar plug-in you can't do that in Javascript as
>>> easily.  How about Jquery AJAX?    How does the Javascript AJAX object
>>> compare to  the JQuery AJAX?
>>
>> Try asking the customers, e.g me :
>> a) The web page takes far too long to arrive and display fully.
>
> Isn't it likely that the browser will have the JQuery file cached? There
> might be an extra delay for the first request (although if you point to
> the CDN, they might already have it cached from some other site that
> also uses the CDN), but from then on it should be reasonably fast.
>
>> b) If the web page hasn't been updated to the latest JQuery and so it
>> doesn't support your browser yet then some things don't work. E.g Adding
>> an item to the shopping basket.
>
> And if you write your own Javascript, it won't ever have compatibility
> problems with a new browser?  And in the case of old browsers, don't you
> have to duplicate all the checks that JQuery hides from you?  Or are
> they overstating the severity of the problem, to sell people on their
> code?  Since they're not making anything off it, why would they need to
> hype it with overblown claims?
>
>>
>> Customers then zoom off to a web site that does work.
>>
>> Remember to update JQuery every 6 months or so, on *every* page, and
>> re-test the entire, possibly enormous, web site. Yikes!
>
> Some of the arguments I've seen remind me of the arguments that were
> made many decades ago against high level languages in general: they were
> slower, they couldn't do as much as assembler.  Someone else mentioned
> that it makes debugging harder, since there's all that code that you
> didn't write yourself -- isn't that an argument against third-party
> libraries in general?  Is it really best to reinvent the wheel all the
> time?

Sigh, the same jquery questions/arguments every month or so. Do a google 
search of this group and read what the people, who know far more about 
JavaScript than most, have to say about it.

Andrew Poulos

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#13594

Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> writes:

> Sigh, the same jquery questions/arguments every month or so. Do a google
> search of this group and read what the people, who know far more about
> JavaScript than most, have to say about it.

Is there a good summary somewhere on the web, that could be referred to
when somebody tries to advocate jQuery?
If I try to google for "jquery" or "jquery criticism", I don't find one..

-- 
Jukka Lahtinen

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#13595

On 26/04/2012 4:01 PM, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:
> Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Sigh, the same jquery questions/arguments every month or so. Do a google
>> search of this group and read what the people, who know far more about
>> JavaScript than most, have to say about it.
>
> Is there a good summary somewhere on the web, that could be referred to
> when somebody tries to advocate jQuery?
> If I try to google for "jquery" or "jquery criticism", I don't find one..
>

Here's a place to start:

<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/search?hl=en&group=comp.lang.javascript&q=%2Bjquery+%2B%22david+mark%22&qt_g=Search+this+group>

Andrew Poulos

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#13603

In article <wdudnWRphIagdQXSnZ2dnUVZ_oednZ2d@westnet.com.au>,
 Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On 26/04/2012 4:01 PM, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:
> > Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> Sigh, the same jquery questions/arguments every month or so. Do a google
> >> search of this group and read what the people, who know far more about
> >> JavaScript than most, have to say about it.
> >
> > Is there a good summary somewhere on the web, that could be referred to
> > when somebody tries to advocate jQuery?
> > If I try to google for "jquery" or "jquery criticism", I don't find one..
> >
> 
> Here's a place to start:
> 
> <http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/search?hl=en&group=comp.l
> ang.javascript&q=%2Bjquery+%2B%22david+mark%22&qt_g=Search+this+group>

That's all one guy's opinions.  And what do you know, David Mark has a 
web site promoting HIS cross-browser library:

http://www.cinsoft.net/mylib.html

His criticisms look valid, but I'm new enough to ECMAScript that I don't 
really know enough to tell.  For all I know, it's just self-serving FUD.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

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#13611

On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 at 06:52:39, in comp.lang.javascript, Barry Margolin
wrote:

  <snip>
>That's all one guy's opinions.  And what do you know, David Mark has a
>web site promoting HIS cross-browser library:
  <snip>

... which he wrote because JQuery enthusiasts said his comments were
worthless because he had never written a library.

  John
-- 
John Harris

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#13600

In article <1cWdnX9PneigKAXSnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@westnet.com.au>,
 Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Sigh, the same jquery questions/arguments every month or so. Do a google 
> search of this group and read what the people, who know far more about 
> JavaScript than most, have to say about it.

Sorry, I searched recent posts in the forum, and also scanned the FAQ.  
The closest thing I could find of relevance in the FAQ was a terse "No 
javascript libraries are endorsed by this group." Nothing specific to 
JQuery, and no justification given.  There's a big difference between 
not endorsing and vehemently discouraging -- I'd think something as 
important as this would get a little more explanation.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

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#13602

On 26/04/2012 8:30 PM, Barry Margolin wrote:
> In article<1cWdnX9PneigKAXSnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@westnet.com.au>,
>   Andrew Poulos<ap_prog@hotmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> Sigh, the same jquery questions/arguments every month or so. Do a google
>> search of this group and read what the people, who know far more about
>> JavaScript than most, have to say about it.
>
> Sorry, I searched recent posts in the forum, and also scanned the FAQ.
> The closest thing I could find of relevance in the FAQ was a terse "No
> javascript libraries are endorsed by this group." Nothing specific to
> JQuery, and no justification given.  There's a big difference between
> not endorsing and vehemently discouraging -- I'd think something as
> important as this would get a little more explanation.

It has already been extensively and comprehensively discussed - extend 
your search a little.

Andrew Poulos

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#13605

In article <ceudnf7CxdiHugTSnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au>,
 Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On 26/04/2012 8:30 PM, Barry Margolin wrote:
> > In article<1cWdnX9PneigKAXSnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@westnet.com.au>,
> >   Andrew Poulos<ap_prog@hotmail.com>  wrote:
> >
> >> Sigh, the same jquery questions/arguments every month or so. Do a google
> >> search of this group and read what the people, who know far more about
> >> JavaScript than most, have to say about it.
> >
> > Sorry, I searched recent posts in the forum, and also scanned the FAQ.
> > The closest thing I could find of relevance in the FAQ was a terse "No
> > javascript libraries are endorsed by this group." Nothing specific to
> > JQuery, and no justification given.  There's a big difference between
> > not endorsing and vehemently discouraging -- I'd think something as
> > important as this would get a little more explanation.
> 
> It has already been extensively and comprehensively discussed - extend 
> your search a little.

I just tried googling for articles with JQuery in the subject, most of 
them were unenlightening (Question: "how do I do X in Jquery?" Answer: 
"Don't use JQuery").  I extended to jquery in the text, and it seemed 
like half the hits were from PointedEars, because one of his random sigs 
mentions JQuery (not favorably, of course).

I didn't see any comprehensive discussions.  I ignored anything from PE, 
since he's a troll.  And David Mark seems to be in a feud with the 
JQuery implementors, as well has having a competing library of his own.

They generally say "you don't need any of these things, just learn how 
to use Javascript, CSS and DOM."  I can pick up a language in a few 
hours (95% of Javascript is C-like, and my Lisp background is helpful 
for the object orientation), but that's a long way from getting the nice 
effects I want on a web page.

I don't really care much about JQuery itself (perhaps most of the things 
in the matrix are uncommon, so I won't run into them), but plugins like 
JQuery UI seem really attractive.  Those are the wheels I'm trying to 
avoid reinventing.  Maybe 20 years ago I would have considered it a fun 
exercise to spend a few days implementing a datepicker myself, but now I 
just want to get something working in a reasonable amount of time. 
Reusable code seems to be the key to that.

But I can tell that even if there's anything good to say about JQuery, 
the "high priests" in this group will keep it out.  It's hard to tell 
whether the problems are really that bad, or they've just self-selected 
themselves into a group that likes to deal only with the low-level 
language.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

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#13612

On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 at 08:34:02, in comp.lang.javascript, Barry Margolin
wrote:
>In article <ceudnf7CxdiHugTSnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au>,
> Andrew Poulos <ap_prog@hotmail.com> wrote:

  <snip>
>But I can tell that even if there's anything good to say about JQuery,
>the "high priests" in this group will keep it out.  It's hard to tell
>whether the problems are really that bad, or they've just self-selected
>themselves into a group that likes to deal only with the low-level
>language.

The problems for customers really are that bad.

Last year I had several failed e-commerce transactions because of
JQuery, and I said so here. A JQuery enthusiast said I must be lying
because I hadn't named the companies. So I named and shamed them.

  John
-- 
John Harris

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#13613

Am 2012-04-26 14:34, Barry Margolin meinte:

> And David Mark seems to be in a feud with the
> JQuery implementors, as well has having a competing library of his own.

Arguably jQuery authors lifted several ideas from DM's scripts, without 
giving credit to him.

>
> They generally say "you don't need any of these things, just learn how
> to use Javascript, CSS and DOM."

Naturally. This is a JS/ECMAScript newsgroup - not a jQuery forum.

> I can pick up a language in a few
> hours (95% of Javascript is C-like, and my Lisp background is helpful
> for the object orientation), but that's a long way from getting the nice
> effects I want on a web page.

I doubt that you would pick up all the nasty details of JS in such a 
short time. Besides, Web page effects have little to do with JS - it's 
all about the DOM.
>
> I don't really care much about JQuery itself (perhaps most of the things
> in the matrix are uncommon, so I won't run into them), but plugins like
> JQuery UI seem really attractive.  Those are the wheels I'm trying to
> avoid reinventing.  Maybe 20 years ago I would have considered it a fun
> exercise to spend a few days implementing a datepicker myself, but now I
> just want to get something working in a reasonable amount of time.
> Reusable code seems to be the key to that.

Then you add ExtJS for their drag-and-drop functions. And some fancy 
"plugin" requires Prototype. Ah, the suggest widget is MooTools based, 
and the slideshow requires Dojo...

> But I can tell that even if there's anything good to say about JQuery,
> the "high priests" in this group will keep it out.

See above. Besides, the more you know about JS, the less you like some 
obscure 3rd party libraries.

Gregor


-- 
http://vxweb.net

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#13646

Gregor Kofler wrote:

> [T]he more you know about JS, the less you like some
> obscure 3rd party libraries.
>
> Gregor
>
> --http://vxweb.net


I've got to admit I that I enjoyed that (presumably accidental)
juxtaposition.

(the url points to a fairly obscure 3rd party library!  :-) )

  -- Scott

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#13648

Am 2012-04-27 22:29, Scott Sauyet meinte:
> Gregor Kofler wrote:
>
>> [T]he more you know about JS, the less you like some
>> obscure 3rd party libraries.

(You prefer your very own piece of art.)

>> Gregor
>>
>> --http://vxweb.net
>
>
> I've got to admit I that I enjoyed that (presumably accidental)
> juxtaposition.
>
> (the url points to a fairly obscure 3rd party library!  :-) )

They are all over the place these days. :-)

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#13650

In comp.lang.javascript message <jnbrt7$pq9$1@dont-email.me>, Thu, 26
Apr 2012 18:08:07, Gregor Kofler <usenet@gregorkofler.com> posted:

>Am 2012-04-26 14:34, Barry Margolin meinte:
>
>> And David Mark seems to be in a feud with the
>> JQuery implementors, as well has having a competing library of his own.
>
>Arguably jQuery authors lifted several ideas from DM's scripts, without
>giving credit to him.

But would DM *wish* to be given credit in such a place, with the
probability that "his" code is mangled without his ID being removed?


-- 
 (c) John Stockton, nr London, UK.    ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk     Turnpike v6.05.
 Website  <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - w. FAQish topics, links, acronyms
 PAS EXE etc. : <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/> - see in 00index.htm
 Dates - miscdate.htm estrdate.htm js-dates.htm pas-time.htm critdate.htm etc.

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#13626

On 26/04/2012 10:34 PM, Barry Margolin wrote:
> In article<ceudnf7CxdiHugTSnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d@westnet.com.au>,
>   Andrew Poulos<ap_prog@hotmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> On 26/04/2012 8:30 PM, Barry Margolin wrote:
>>> In article<1cWdnX9PneigKAXSnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@westnet.com.au>,
>>>    Andrew Poulos<ap_prog@hotmail.com>   wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sigh, the same jquery questions/arguments every month or so. Do a google
>>>> search of this group and read what the people, who know far more about
>>>> JavaScript than most, have to say about it.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I searched recent posts in the forum, and also scanned the FAQ.
>>> The closest thing I could find of relevance in the FAQ was a terse "No
>>> javascript libraries are endorsed by this group." Nothing specific to
>>> JQuery, and no justification given.  There's a big difference between
>>> not endorsing and vehemently discouraging -- I'd think something as
>>> important as this would get a little more explanation.
>>
>> It has already been extensively and comprehensively discussed - extend
>> your search a little.
>
> I just tried googling for articles with JQuery in the subject, most of
> them were unenlightening (Question: "how do I do X in Jquery?" Answer:
> "Don't use JQuery").  I extended to jquery in the text, and it seemed
> like half the hits were from PointedEars, because one of his random sigs
> mentions JQuery (not favorably, of course).

Man, there are dozens of in-depth discussions about how jquery works or 
doesn't work.

> I didn't see any comprehensive discussions.  I ignored anything from PE,
> since he's a troll.  And David Mark seems to be in a feud with the
> JQuery implementors, as well has having a competing library of his own.

David Mark is not competing with anybody. Have you not bothered to go to 
his website.

> They generally say "you don't need any of these things, just learn how
> to use Javascript, CSS and DOM."  I can pick up a language in a few
> hours (95% of Javascript is C-like, and my Lisp background is helpful
> for the object orientation), but that's a long way from getting the nice
> effects I want on a web page.
>
> I don't really care much about JQuery itself (perhaps most of the things
> in the matrix are uncommon, so I won't run into them), but plugins like
> JQuery UI seem really attractive.  Those are the wheels I'm trying to
> avoid reinventing.  Maybe 20 years ago I would have considered it a fun
> exercise to spend a few days implementing a datepicker myself, but now I
> just want to get something working in a reasonable amount of time.
> Reusable code seems to be the key to that.

Defend your decision to use jquery any way you want but please don't try 
to justify it to people who know better.

> But I can tell that even if there's anything good to say about JQuery,
> the "high priests" in this group will keep it out.  It's hard to tell

The people you refer to as "high priests" are in fact people who are 
very knowledgeable about JavaScript. They do not moderate this NG - no 
one does - and its is good that provide solid advice where they can.

> whether the problems are really that bad, or they've just self-selected
> themselves into a group that likes to deal only with the low-level
> language.

Now I know your trolling.

Andrew Poulos

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#13632

On 12-04-26 06:34 AM, Barry Margolin wrote:
> I just tried googling for articles with JQuery in the subject, most of
> them were unenlightening (Question: "how do I do X in Jquery?" Answer:
> "Don't use JQuery").  I extended to jquery in the text, and it seemed
> like half the hits were from PointedEars, because one of his random sigs
> mentions JQuery (not favorably, of course).

jQuery's follies have been covered hundreds of times specifically
by David Mark, Thomas Lahn and Richard Cornford. I've learned
massive amounts from the three of them since I started reading
this newsgroup.

> I didn't see any comprehensive discussions.  I ignored anything from PE,
> since he's a troll.

To the untrained eye. Look harder.

> And David Mark seems to be in a feud with the
> JQuery implementors, as well has having a competing library of his own.

I myself have a great deal of disdain for people associated
with the jQuery project. What you see as a "feud" is actually
someone taking a stand for sensible web development.

My Library is not "competing" with jQuery. The two occupy
different realms. One is a poorly written monolithic
API with a magic cauldron "selector engine"; the other is a
modular API that's as sturdy as can be.

> They generally say "you don't need any of these things, just learn how
> to use Javascript, CSS and DOM."  I can pick up a language in a few
> hours (95% of Javascript is C-like, and my Lisp background is helpful
> for the object orientation), but that's a long way from getting the nice
> effects I want on a web page.

Whom might "they" be? Be wary of men made of straw.

JavaScript isn't the main issue here. The DOM is the stumbling
block most developers face. It's the primary source of FUD
regarding client-side code.

There are various DOM specifications (tiered by "levels").
I'd suggest beginning with the DOM Level 2 Core[0] and
DOM Level 2 HTML[1] specifications.

> I don't really care much about JQuery itself (perhaps most of the things
> in the matrix are uncommon, so I won't run into them), but plugins like
> JQuery UI seem really attractive.  Those are the wheels I'm trying to
> avoid reinventing.

I wouldn't recommend it. While jQueryUI actually allows for
custom builds, it's one giant jQuery plug-in. That's a
colossal dependency.

> Maybe 20 years ago I would have considered it a fun
> exercise to spend a few days implementing a datepicker myself, but now I
> just want to get something working in a reasonable amount of time.

Therein lies the problem with web development today. Gone
are the days of tested, logical code. If someone else has
already done the work, why bother? Project Foo needs to be
done tomorrow and the client isn't going to pay another dime
for a custom scrollbar. Slap one together with jQueryUI
in an hour.¹

> But I can tell that even if there's anything good to say about JQuery

I've yet to find one "good" aspect about it. The source code
resembles entangled pasta, the developers are clueless browser
elitists and its founder is an utter charlatan who has
leveraged its popularity into years of cushy speaking
invitations and jobs with high-profile companies.

jQuery has irreversibly tainted web development. Many
employers are now content with permitting "designers"
to fumble around with the DOM because jQuery enables
them to quickly code by coincidence. In my search for
employment, I've discovered that JavaScript is now
tossed into job ads as an afterthought (along with
HTML and CSS).

[0]: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Core/
[1]: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/

¹ a sarcastic hypothetical scenario

-- 
Matt McDonald: Web/Flash Developer; Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

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#13634

Am 2012-04-27 06:23, Matt McDonald meinte:

> Therein lies the problem with web development today. Gone
> are the days of tested, logical code. If someone else has
> already done the work, why bother? Project Foo needs to be
> done tomorrow and the client isn't going to pay another dime
> for a custom scrollbar. Slap one together with jQueryUI
> in an hour.¹

...

> ¹ a sarcastic hypothetical scenario

Not really.

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#13635

On 27/04/2012 2:23 PM, Matt McDonald wrote:
> On 12-04-26 06:34 AM, Barry Margolin wrote:
>> I just tried googling for articles with JQuery in the subject, most of
>> them were unenlightening (Question: "how do I do X in Jquery?" Answer:
>> "Don't use JQuery"). I extended to jquery in the text, and it seemed
>> like half the hits were from PointedEars, because one of his random sigs
>> mentions JQuery (not favorably, of course).
>
> jQuery's follies have been covered hundreds of times specifically
> by David Mark, Thomas Lahn and Richard Cornford. I've learned
> massive amounts from the three of them since I started reading
> this newsgroup.

I went to the Trivantis (a multi million dollar company) web site with 
IE 9 and I get js errors. I checked the source and saw that its using 
animations based on jquery. The content still appears so I can't tell 
what's not working.

Andrew Poulos

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#13647

On 4/27/2012 3:05 AM, Andrew Poulos wrote:
> I went to the Trivantis (a multi million dollar company) web site with
> IE 9 and I get js errors. I checked the source and saw that its using
> animations based on jquery. The content still appears so I can't tell
> what's not working.

They're using a four-year old version of jQuery and a stockpiled 
assortment of plugins, several of which are six-years old. Gonna go out 
on a limb and guess that latter is causing the issue.

If you're going to do any "fancy" type UI you have to test and adjust 
for new browsers, period. Those guys didn't - can't blame jQuery on 
that. You simply can't put up scripts that do a bunch of crap to the DOM 
and forget about it, just assuming it will continue work. That applies 
whether using a library or not.

Take Chrome for Android, for instance. Try it on the vxweb.net library 
site seen around here and the calendar widget doesn't work correctly and 
the Dual Select widget is completely busted, that's out of about five 
demos I tried. Try it on David Mark's library and, even given the simple 
nature of the few demos on his site, failures abound.

If those two can't reliably put out a future'ish proof UI widgets, and 
given their knowledge of JS exceeds mine by a factor of 10 or so, I'm 
fairly certain the solution to my needs is *not* writing these UI 
elements myself. Safe to say I'll use a library and stay up to date on 
the site. And if I can't stay up to date for some reason, I probably 
won't incorporate "widgets" or other complicated JS.

And with no offense to Gregor (but fine if it offends David Mark - he's 
an asshat), if I'm going to use a library I'll lean towards one with a 
massive user base that's able to find and fix these odd bugs quickly, or 
at least have obscure issues documented somewhere on the web.

As a footnote, ran through the jQueryUI demos with Chrome for Android 
and didn't notice any failures. Not saying none exist, but didn't see any.

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#13659

On 28/04/2012 7:32 AM, S.T. wrote:
> On 4/27/2012 3:05 AM, Andrew Poulos wrote:
>> I went to the Trivantis (a multi million dollar company) web site with
>> IE 9 and I get js errors. I checked the source and saw that its using
>> animations based on jquery. The content still appears so I can't tell
>> what's not working.
>
> They're using a four-year old version of jQuery and a stockpiled
> assortment of plugins, several of which are six-years old. Gonna go out
> on a limb and guess that latter is causing the issue.

Of course its not a jquery issue. Its the developers that "conned" 
Trivantis it using it without making them aware of the maintenance 
required. I imagine that to "fix" it properly would be a major effort 
with no guarantee that things like all the links that users have won't 
break.

> If you're going to do any "fancy" type UI you have to test and adjust
> for new browsers, period. Those guys didn't - can't blame jQuery on
> that. You simply can't put up scripts that do a bunch of crap to the DOM
> and forget about it, just assuming it will continue work. That applies
> whether using a library or not.
>
> Take Chrome for Android, for instance. Try it on the vxweb.net library
> site seen around here and the calendar widget doesn't work correctly and
> the Dual Select widget is completely busted, that's out of about five

Though it does work fine in IE 9.

> demos I tried. Try it on David Mark's library and, even given the simple
> nature of the few demos on his site, failures abound.

I think you're exaggerating.

While the jquery demos I looked at "worked" I wouldn't say they worked well.

> If those two can't reliably put out a future'ish proof UI widgets, and
> given their knowledge of JS exceeds mine by a factor of 10 or so, I'm
> fairly certain the solution to my needs is *not* writing these UI
> elements myself. Safe to say I'll use a library and stay up to date on
> the site. And if I can't stay up to date for some reason, I probably
> won't incorporate "widgets" or other complicated JS.
>
> And with no offense to Gregor (but fine if it offends David Mark - he's
> an asshat), if I'm going to use a library I'll lean towards one with a

Why is it bad to a hat on an ass?

> massive user base that's able to find and fix these odd bugs quickly, or
> at least have obscure issues documented somewhere on the web.

Good luck.

> As a footnote, ran through the jQueryUI demos with Chrome for Android
> and didn't notice any failures. Not saying none exist, but didn't see any.

The thing is that there are a number of "popular" browsers for mobile 
devices and, in my experience they behave differently. I'm not saying 
that the demos will break but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

Andrew Poulos

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#14890

On Saturday, April 28, 2012 2:03:58 AM UTC-4, Andrew Poulos wrote:
> On 28/04/2012 7:32 AM, S.T. wrote:
> > On 4/27/2012 3:05 AM, Andrew Poulos wrote:
> >> I went to the Trivantis (a multi million dollar company) web site with
> >> IE 9 and I get js errors. I checked the source and saw that its using
> >> animations based on jquery. The content still appears so I can't tell
> >> what's not working.
> >
> > They're using a four-year old version of jQuery and a stockpiled
> > assortment of plugins, several of which are six-years old. Gonna go out
> > on a limb and guess that latter is causing the issue.

That's what happens with multi-browser scripts; they rot over time.

> 
> Of course its not a jquery issue. Its the developers that "conned" 
> Trivantis it using it without making them aware of the maintenance 
> required.

Exactly.

> I imagine that to "fix" it properly would be a major effort 
> with no guarantee that things like all the links that users have won't 
> break.

Likely.

> 
> > If you're going to do any "fancy" type UI you have to test and adjust
> > for new browsers, period. Those guys didn't - can't blame jQuery on
> > that. You simply can't put up scripts that do a bunch of crap to the DOM
> > and forget about it, just assuming it will continue work. That applies
> > whether using a library or not.
> >
> > Take Chrome for Android, for instance. Try it on the vxweb.net library
> > site seen around here and the calendar widget doesn't work correctly and
> > the Dual Select widget is completely busted, that's out of about five
> 
> Though it does work fine in IE 9.
> 
> > demos I tried. Try it on David Mark's library and, even given the simple
> > nature of the few demos on his site, failures abound.

Pfft. He knows damned well that the fixed positioning in a couple of the more over-the-top examples don't translate well to the small screen.  Nothing to do with the script, just the CSS used for the widget examples.

And he always complains about the "few demos".  Funny, I can replicate a whole Explorer-shell like interface by pushing buttons.  Sidebars, toast popups, dialogs, etc.  It's had audio long before HTML5 (and of course those demos do nothing on Androids).  If the last feature test (for BGSOUND support) was done right, those buttons would be disabled on most of the new mobile devices.  The Build Test has Ajax, Flash, a debug console and dozens of other demonstrations.  Site hasn't been updated in ages (not sure if I remember the password), so there are other examples (e.g. touch and editor add-ons) referenced in the code that aren't linked to the Examples page.  As mentioned, some of them are hard-wired to use position:fixed, so they can't be expected to do anything reliably on the tiny screens.  There's no viewport META, no media queries, etc. as those things didn't exist (or were in scant use) back when the site was built.

It's sort of a barrier to entry for My Library.  If they think JS/CSS frameworks are magic, then it's just not the library for them.

> 
> I think you're exaggerating.

Or very confused about the nature of these things.  He (she?) always looks at widget demos to determine whether a JS library "works". :(

> 
> While the jquery demos I looked at "worked" I wouldn't say they worked well.

Nothing with jQuery works well on battery-powered mobile devices.  It's just too damned slow and bloated for those sorts of environments.  That's why they finally threw in the towel on IE 8- (and compatibility modes).

> 
> > If those two can't reliably put out a future'ish proof UI widgets, and
> > given their knowledge of JS exceeds mine by a factor of 10 or so, I'm
> > fairly certain the solution to my needs is *not* writing these UI
> > elements myself. Safe to say I'll use a library and stay up to date on
> > the site. And if I can't stay up to date for some reason, I probably
> > won't incorporate "widgets" or other complicated JS.

As if there is any way for this developer to know when he needs to "stay up to date". :)

> >
> > And with no offense to Gregor (but fine if it offends David Mark - he's
> > an asshat), if I'm going to use a library I'll lean towards one with a
> 
> Why is it bad to a hat on an ass?

I don't know where that word comes from either.

> 
> > massive user base that's able to find and fix these odd bugs quickly, or
> > at least have obscure issues documented somewhere on the web.

Again, I don't think this guy knows the difference between CSS and JS.  Certainly the crowd-sourcing of "odd bugs" and "obscure issues" (a la jQuery) has been less than successful over the years.  You'd think he'd have picked up on that by now.

> 
> Good luck.
> 
> > As a footnote, ran through the jQueryUI demos with Chrome for Android
> > and didn't notice any failures. Not saying none exist, but didn't see any.

Well, if they didn't see any "failures", that's good enough for me. :)

> 
> The thing is that there are a number of "popular" browsers for mobile 
> devices and, in my experience they behave differently. I'm not saying 
> that the demos will break but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

If they do "work", they do so very slowly.  Best not to send them.

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